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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    It may be lower by now. I only put gas in my Cooper once every 10-11 days. As of about a week ago diesel was around $5 and premium 4.50.

    Regardless, it will only go back up. And for me, unless it's over 20% higher than premium, the difference is negligible.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    It may be lower by now. I only put gas in my Cooper once every 10-11 days. As of about a week ago diesel was around $5 and premium 4.50.

    I'm just curious why you have to sell your Cooper S? You gave up your BMW for being too soft. But a Jetta? I mean how much money would it take to make that a sweet handling car, like the Cooper S?
    Just wondering about your reasoning.
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    I have a 1993 Dodge w/ the Cummins and 238000 miles with minimal problems.
    The Jeep Diesel has 117000 miles with several problems over the 3 years.
    The CRD was not built as well as previous jeeps, I have a Cherokee with 249000 miles and no problems at all.
    I had hoped a Diesel Jeep would be as reliable.
    I like diesels but I will not buy another unless it has been out for a couple of years to see if it was done right.
    And American car companies need to put out manual transmissions!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Baby on the way and I have limited options with baby seats. Sadly because of the baby i have to get rid of the Cooper. To say I'm displeased with this is a gross understatement.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    You can't hide the Cooper in the garage for those rare moments you get to yourself?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Nope. Need a car to transport the demon in daily. The TDI offers great resale and some measure of germanic feel.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    I'm guessing you have a backward facing car seat. Once you get them to a year old and 20 lbs, you can have the little critters facing forward. Most forward facing seats will easily fit in a MINI.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    Baby on the way and I have limited options with baby seats. Sadly because of the baby i have to get rid of the Cooper. To say I'm displeased with this is a gross understatement.

    Thank God all my kids are grown up and have their own kids to deal with.
    I had to drive all kinds of crap cars minivans etc... in the early days and I had 3 kids!
    The Jetta might be a possible answer but it's going to drive like mush compared to the Cooper S.
    The rear facing car seats are huge space hogs. Might as well buy a Minivan as you'll wish you had one lugging all the baby stuff around, either that or try the Jetta Sportwagen diesel.
    You really will need the room.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    TDI Sportwagen is on the map.

    As for space, it depends on the person. I have one friend who uses a Graco Safeseat, one diaper bag and the Graco Snugrider (like a Snap N Go frame). All of that will fit in a Cooper, clubman, Jetta, GTI, 3 series, WRX, Ralliart etc. Additionally, I just need to fit the bag and carseat as the chances of me taking the kid on an outing in my car = slim. My brother in law got by fine with my 5 year old niece and his 3 series e46 for the past 5 years. Avoid the travel system strollers and junk (toys, cribs, etc) and just about any car should do. My issue stems from difficult getting the Graco in the back of the cooper. So something with 4 (3) doors is a must.

    The Jetta TDI fits the bill and with that $1300 tax credit and great mileage it could end up boring to drive, but economically pretty sound.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    Depends on priorities, I guess. I am hauling two little ones around in my 1986 Porsche 944. Another guy in my neighborhood does the same with his 1977 Porsche 911. You couldn't put in infant in either of these cars, but they are fine for toddlers. And it doesn't hurt that both our wives have sensible family vehicles.

    Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, Porsche isn't selling any diesel cars.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    As for space, it depends on the person. I have one friend who uses a Graco Safeseat, one diaper bag and the Graco Snugrider (like a Snap N Go frame). All of that will fit in a Cooper, clubman, Jetta, GTI, 3 series, WRX, Ralliart etc. Additionally, I just need to fit the bag and carseat as the chances of me taking the kid on an outing in my car = slim. My brother in law got by fine with my 5 year old niece and his 3 series e46 for the past 5 years. Avoid the travel system strollers and junk (toys, cribs, etc) and just about any car should do.

    Well I just hope your wife, doesn't want/need all the baby stuff that seems to be so mandatory nowadays.
    Most people have so much baby stuff everywhere they go. My wife had to bring a lot of junk in the car but we had full size wagons and Minivans. Normal cars just didn't pan out very well. Gas was cheap back then.
    Ideally Honda or toyota should come out with a diesel engine option in their minivans. Both the Odyssey and the Sienna would be great with a diesel option.
    If not it looks like VW will corner the market with the only diesel wagon out there.
  • I would rather have diesel now, but I'm not in the market. Diesel engines give more torque, last longer, are more efficient and render better mpg.

    To me the most interesting cars of the next year are the VW Jetta TDI and the BMW 335d. Though they don't serve my purpose.

    If Toyota were to bring over the diesels they sell in the rest of the world I would buy one tomorrow. I want my 2006 4x4 4runner with a small v6 diesel please.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    It looks to me like VW may steal the Diesel show. I believe they may have their Mini-Van with diesel by next year. Though it may be just a Dodge caravan with VW Routan nameplate. Their EuroVans in the EU are real nice. I have seen several of the diesel ones here in San Diego with Mexico license plates. As usual the USA gets the dregs from the rest of the World.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Posts: 187
    I agree- VW's diesel's have a lock on the market - until other Mfr's. hit the market; then VW's repair record & service costs will catch up with them. I wanted very much to buy an 06 jetta diesel; but when I checked with the service department - the internet manager ignored my requests for service costs - I was quoted "about $750. for the timing belt", & $1200. for the 100,000 mile service. by comparison the 100,000 mile service on my 06 Avalon was $265.00. Might seem like these costs are far in the future for a new car; but they come up in less that 2 years for me - 55,000 miles a year

    Do I want a diesel? You bet, right now! At current prices a 50 mpg diesel would save me between $275.00 & &300.00 a month compared to the Avalon.

    Why am I waiting? VW's overall cost of ownership; & the fact that the Honda/Acura diesel will be here in a few months. I'll be first in line when it is formally announced.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    VW has included maintenance for the first 3 years. They also come with a timing chain now instead of a belt.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    diesel is standing firm at $4.89/gallon at the only station in my town that sells it. That's still a full 20% higher than 87 unleaded. In fact, diesel dropped very little when gas took its 10% nosedive in price last month. So my hypothetical diesel car is going to have to get at least 50 mpg, combined real world mpg, or I will stick with the gasser.

    Unless I see diesel drop significantly in price, that is. Could it? Maybe, sure. But gas prices seem a whole lot more predictable than diesel, even if they did shoot up early this year.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    Someone up there don't like you guys. We usually get the overpriced fuel in the state. With my Shell discount I paid $3.49 today for RUG and diesel was just under $4. If BMW can squeeze 30 MPG out of their X5 diesel I would have saved $26 on this fill-up on my Sequoia. That was for 255 miles on this tank. My fuel is almost double what I would spend out on the open road getting twice what I am getting now. Plus only having to fill up half as much. I'm more than ready for a luxury diesel SUV.

    Sounds like people are taking delivery on the VW Jetta TDI at MSRP. It is probably the price of diesel giving the buyers a break. With the $1300 tax credit they will be getting the diesel for the price of that gas engine. diesel will NEVER go high enough to make that a bad deal.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    With the $1300 tax credit they will be getting the diesel for the price of that gas engine. diesel will NEVER go high enough to make that a bad deal.

    Cheaper actually. A 1300 tax credit comes off what you owe. Take a look at a 1040 last year and see the difference in your income when you have a $1300 tax credit.

    A household income of 50k (AGI) filing jointly = 6700 in owed taxes. A $1300 tax credit is essentially like have a 41.2k AGI. On a 100k AGI household income the tax credit is only a change equivalent to a 94.6k AGI. still that's 5k in write-offs you don't have to dig up.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    That is a good point. I just wish the tax credit was more in line with the savings offered. I understand that VW is addressing the issue with the EPA. The way I calculated the fuel savings it should be closer to $2500 tax credit. Unless of course you get hit with that nasty old AMT.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "The way I calculated the fuel savings it should be closer to $2500 tax credit"

    How did you calculate it? I don't know that the actual formula is available to the general public. What formula did you use?

    The Civic Hybrid at the outset only qualified for $2100 and is rated at 42 combined by the EPA and 40 in the City rating. The Jetta TDI even at the AMCI ratings is combined 41 MPG and 38 in the City rating.

    So all other factors being even, the Civic is going to rate a higher tax credit than the Jetta TDI. The Jetta TDI should probably be around $1950 based on those numbers.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    As you know it is calculated from the formula set out in the Energy bill of 2005.

    1. Conservation Credit: A vehicle qualifies for a $250 credit if it is expected to save at least 1,200 gallons of gas over its lifetime (estimated by the IRS at 120,000 miles) compared to a fuel consumption average gathered from vehicles of similar weight and class. For each additional 600 gallons of gasoline savings, the vehicle earns $250 in tax credits, up to $1,000.

    2. Fuel Economy Credit: The credit amount is also based on the vehicle's fuel economy compared to similar vehicles in its class. A $400 credit is awarded if the car or truck gets at least 25 percent better fuel economy. The credit increases by $400 for every 25 percent improvement after that, up to $2,400. The maximum combined credit is $3,400.


    Here is your prime example to decipher:

    Hybrid Vehicles = Toyota Prius
    Vehicle Class = Compact Car
    City MPG = 60 MPG
    Annual Gallons Saved = 2,744
    Total Credit = $3150


    The 2002 Jetta was rated 17-19 MPG City. You figure it out. I used the AMCI mileage of 38 MPG City. Not sure how the secretive bunch at the EPA calculated the amount.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Once again, if you buy a VW TDI, go to a TDI mechanic, NOT A DEALER, for service, once the free service interval is up. In general, you will get better and more knowledgeable service for far less money.

    Also, I will note again that VW reliability and quality is now much improved. You may find no appreciable quality differences when comparing VW to many other brands.

    My VWs have been mostly trouble-free. The problems have been things like burnt out bulbs. My 2003 TDI will soon be heading into its seventh winter. It always starts and runs in the coldest weather, and I am still getting 50+ mpg combined.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    I would say that the Jetta TDI will save between 3500 -4000 gallons of fossil fuel over the 120,000 miles. That is a good reason to buy a diesel Jetta.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, " You figure it out."

    I'm trying to, but there is a missing number in the formula. How did you work out this number:

    The credit amount is also based on the vehicle's fuel economy compared to similar vehicles in its class. A $400 credit is awarded if the car or truck gets at least 25 percent better fuel economy. The credit increases by $400 for every 25 percent improvement after that, up to $2,400."

    What is the number they used to "compare to similar model vehicles in it's class?"

    If you give the Jetta TDI $1000 for the maximum "Conservation Credit" (which it earns for sure in my mind) then to get to your $2500 total you it would have to earn $1500 from the "Fuel Economy Credit."

    How do you get to $1500 in the Fuel Economy Credit if you don't know the base number they are using for the other vehicles in it's class?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    maybe if you deliver newspapers in Alaska, yeah. But for the average American driver:

    Versus a Scion xA or other gas car getting 35 mpg, a VW TDI getting 50 mpg will save 1,000 gallons over 120,000 miles, which represents 8 years of driving for the average American.

    So figure 125 gallons at year @ $4 per gallon. So $500 bucks a year.

    Adjusting for the price differential of the higher cost diesel fuel vs. a gas car using 87 octane, it's really about $400 a year.

    This to me, is not a compelling argument at the present time for the average driver.

    Even at 30,000 miles a year, the savings do not really leap out at you.

    PS: Diesel price 8-19-08 at Point Reyes California is $5.15 a gallon. San Rafael California $4.53/gal. Regular gas $3.99
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    I used the rounded figure of $2500 for example only. As you can see from the formula it would be impossible to come up with a $1300 or $2500 figure. If you go with a comparable car from 2002 the closest would be the Passat size and weight. That car is rated 17 MPG City. Even with the EPA rating of 29 City on the new Jetta TDI, I get 75% increase which should be an additional $1200. Making the tax credit $2200. If you base it on the 38 MPG city gotten by AMCI, it is 125% increase making the tax credit $3000. Your figures may vary as does the IRS figures.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    California has some of the highest prices in the nation. Here in WI, diesel has now dipped below $4 a gallon.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    Where is the flaw in my math?

    I have a regular small car, and I average 30 mpg. Over 120,000 miles I use 4,000 gallons. If I buy a Jetta diesel, I use 3500-4000 gallons less so I am getting between 240 and infinite mpg if I use pump diesel?

    Or is the point that I have to convince the local Chinese restaurant to give me a couple thousand gallons of used oil?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    California also has the largest car market in the nation. If you want to make money, you have to sell cars in California. If diesel was $1 a gallon in WI, that does me, and VW, no good at all. :cry:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I'm a big believer in the INCENTIVE theory of economics, that people's buying decisions are naturally driven by incentive I mean. Now those incentive can be illusory (buy this product and attract the opposite sex for SURE!) or real (buy this car and save $$$ on gas).

    Given all that, that diesels don't really have sex appeal or prestige working for them, this leaves gas savings $$$ and some of that Prius type "feel good marketing".

    Right now, in August 2008, I'm not feeling enough $$$ incentive to buy a diesel (although there is SOME of that) , nor enough "feel good" incentive because I have both hybrids and 40 mpg gas cars to take care of my feel good needs.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    Comparing the xA to a Jetta is sort of like comparing a Corolla to a 5 series BMW. There is no comparative value. I would not take an xA out onto the open highway with all the huge killer trucks and SUVs. Nor a Yaris, Fit or Focus. Actually the Jetta is a bit small in my opinion. The idea is to base fuel savings on a comparable gas car or SUV. There are diesel cars in the world that easily get double the mileage of the xA. That would be a fair comparison. The successor to the xA the xD is only rated 29 MPG. Not real impressive for a subminiature car.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    give me a couple thousand gallons of used oil?

    I think restaurants figured out a few years ago that they can now sell their waste oil instead of having to pay someone to haul it away for them.

    Then there's the theft problem:

    Restaurant waste oil becomes hot commodity for thieves (Denver Post)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    The 3500-4000 gallons is fuel saved over a 2002 comparably sized gas vehicle, in the course of the vehicles life or 120,000 miles. I am sure if you buy a small enough gas car you can match the Jetta diesel mileage. Just not in this country.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I can't think of a comparable wagon (over 200-ft-lbs of torque, decent space) that will average 35 mpg epa. Passat wagon is 25 mpg. A3 is 25 mpg. GTI is 25 mpg.

    What else is there? Vibe is underpowered with half the torque for30 mpg. Clubman S comes close at about 29 mpg but it's more expensive. 2.5 Jetta Sportwagen fails as it's got far less torque and again much lower MPGs.

    I'm sure I'm missing a competitive wagon that has 35 mpg combined EPA and 200+ ft-lbs of torque.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Your numbers intrigued me, so I did the math for you Gary. Here are the basic variables. I gave EPA and ACMI estimates for the benefit of the doubt. All cars driving 15,000 miles a year, therefore hitting 120,000 miles after 6 years:

    Gasoline Jetta at 19 MPG City
    Diesel Jetta at 29 MPG City
    Diesel Jetta at 38 MPG City

    Gallons of gas used:

    Gasoline Jetta at 19 MPG = 6,315 gallons used in 120,000 miles
    Diesel Jetta at 29 MPG City = 4,137 gallons used in 120,000 miles
    Diesel Jetta at 38 MPG City = 3,157 gallons used in 120,000 miles

    So the diesel Jetta saves at most 3,157 gallons in best case and at worst 2,177 gallons in worst case over a gasoline Jetta making 19 MPG City.

    Here are the numbers for highway mileage:

    Gasoline Jetta at 27 MPG Hwy
    Diesel Jetta at 40 MPG City
    Diesel Jetta at 44 MPG City

    Gallons of gas used:

    Gasoline Jetta at 27 MPG Hwy = 4,444 gallons used in 120,000 miles
    Diesel Jetta at 40 MPG Hwy = 3,000 gallons used in 120,000 miles
    Diesel Jetta at 44 MPG Hwy = 2,727 gallons used in 120,000 miles

    So the diesel Jetta saves at most 1,717 gallons in best case and at worst 1,444 gallons in worst case over a gasoline Jetta making 19 MPG City.

    Summary: You can expect between 1,444 and 3,157 gallons saved over 120,000 miles if you are comparing a gasoline Jetta to the TDI. Virtually impossible to save 4,000 gallons.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I would not take an xA out onto the open highway with all the huge killer trucks and SUVs. Nor a Yaris, Fit or Focus.

    But to be fair, many people would. More to the point, most people are buying a car with their workday commute and making grocery runs and trips to the kids soccer practice in mind, and for that the Jetta TDI is very UNcompelling as an alternative to a Corolla or Civic, or some of the cars you mentioned, if $$$ savings on fuel is the consideration.

    Shifty actually provides another interesting point from my POV, as he has provided some comparative gas prices exactly where I live and work. What is interesting to note is that gas (87 unleaded) is pretty much $4/gallon everywhere around me right now. No stations in the area can boost their price much above this point without risking loss of sales.

    But because of the very limited availability of diesel, the only station in my town selling it can charge $4.89/gallon (as it is still doing today) because of the very limitied competition. What I didn't know is that in San Rafael, as quoted by Shifty, I can get diesel for $4.53. That's about an 8-mile drive for me, but for a $0.40/gallon savings, it might be worth my while, even though it would be a lot less convenient.

    Those buying diesel will always suffer from overpriced fuel because of the limited competition, IMO. Who knows, maybe ten years from now we will have a lot more stations selling diesel, if diesel takes off as a passenger car fuel. But for now I am stuck with these enormous disparities in price, and many station owners feeling free to charge whatever they like.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    If I'm following you, I could save maybe 2,000 gallons of gas over 10 years (I just happen to be at 125,000 miles on my '99 minivan, so this exercise does have meaning for me). I had burned right at 5600 gallons of RUG at 120,000 miles.

    My lifetime mpg for the van is 21.4 so your 19 mpg base isn't too far off. 29 for a diesel minivan doesn't seem out of reach. So I'll ballpark 2,000 gallons saved over ten years if I was running a diesel rig, everything else being equal.

    I use $2.50 as a baseline for my per gallon costs since I just track gallons per tank. Back in '99 when I got the van, gas probably close to a buck a gallon, so I just winged an average.

    So, I could have saved ~$5,000 over 10 years burning diesel? (Maybe someone can check my math and assumptions within my 30 minute editing window :shades: ).

    That's pretty significant.
  • I have read through many posts here, but I would buy a diesel just for the reliability and lower maintenance costs of a diesel. Not forgetting the fuel savings, also.

    My uncle had a 1980 VW Rabbit diesel while I was growing up. He averaged 45-50 mpg with that car, and drove it 500,000 miles! What other motor are you going to get a 1/2 million miles out of?? The few things he did to it over the 15 years he had it were tires, batteries and changed oil. I think he had to rebuild the starter and alternator a few times too.

    Diesel motor oil only needs to be changed between 5,000-10,000 miles. There is also a savings right there. And diesels do not have spark plugs and wires, so there are relatively no tune-up costs.

    If I didn't need a mini-van so much I would definately get a diesel car. I would be in heaven if someone made a diesel mini-van and sold it at a price I can afford.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That's about $42 a month. Enough to pay for Starbux coffee for two weeks.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    Diesel here in Western PA is still well above $4, around $4.50 a gallon. RUG is $3.69, PUG is $3.93. Price spread is still hanging in there.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    That is not the best case, larsb. The diesel Jetta, conservatively driven, should get 50 mpg or better. If you have to drive 85 mph all the time, then no, but the middle figure (EPA) isn't realistic for a VW diesel at all.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Diesel was practically always cheaper than gas until very recently. The cleaner deisel fuel required now, plus the much higher use of diesel has driven up prices. Remember, diesels are now the preferred ride in Europe--even in luxury cars--and their use is growing by leaps and bounds in Asia. It has put a real strain on output, which drives up prices.

    Diesels are becoming the preferred vehicle even where Europeans can afford the gassers, because they are more powerful now than the comparable gas version, as well as being cleaner and more economical. When you start seeing diesels in exotic cars (Audi R8), you know the old smelly slow stigma is gone.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    gregg_vw says, "The diesel Jetta, conservatively driven, should get 50 mpg or better."

    My guess is "not so on the new one." It's larger and heavier, and the BlueTec technology strips some of the mileage away.

    That's why in VW's own independently sponsored test they only got 44 MPG hwy.

    Remember - because these are all ESTIMATES, some people will get more and some will get less. You can't assume for the sake of number crunching that EVERYONE will get 50 MPG or that EVERYONE will get 40 MPG.

    That's why you take the available road-test estimates and base decisions on that.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    I figured it by going to the Jetta's size class and picking the highest MPG gas car in that class (a Corolla), so my original calculation stands. The Jetta would have to get somewhere between 240 and infinite MPG.

    When did people start thinking of Jettas as nice big comfortable cars? I haven't ridden in the newest body style, but the last model was tiny.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    and for that the Jetta TDI is very UNcompelling as an alternative to a Corolla or Civic

    OK, I will agree with you and shifty on a couple levels. If I needed a daily driver for short trips to school, mall, work etc, the Civic or Corolla would be a better choice. Even the Yaris, Fit or Focus. They would all give reliable economical service and cost a lot less initially. They also would not be a worry parked at the mall or work. I was paranoid the year I owned that Passat Wagon TDI that some joker would open his door and put a ding in it. I had bought it to sell used as an experiment and hated parking anywhere near other cars.In other words I could own for running errands any of the cars that were mentioned. I would worry very little about them being dinged up. That is part of the reason I sold the 2005 Hybrid PU truck. It was still in perfect condition and I did not want to scratch. So I bought the 99 beater Ranger and use the heck out of it.

    I would rather have a diesel Ranger as this V6 is one gutless engine.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Believe it when I see it. For my money it's a 37 mpg car.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    $42 a month pays for two-thirds of my car insurance. $5,000 over ten years is a nice down payment on a new ride. That True Cost to Own stuff rear its head again.

    I already change my oil at 7,500 miles (and sometimes 10k) so I don't see any advantage there.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,444
    Summary: You can expect between 1,444 and 3,157 gallons saved over 120,000 miles if you are comparing a gasoline Jetta to the TDI. Virtually impossible to save 4,000 gallons.

    Let me try. The rules say comparable 2002 size and weight. That would be the Passat V6 gasser. The V6 is a little less power than the current TDI.

    Gas Passat = 17 MPG City
    gallons used over 120,000 miles = 7059

    Jetta TDI = 38 MPG City
    gallons used over 120,000 miles = 3158

    Difference = 3901 gallons

    Now say the average driver gets just 40 MPG with mostly city driving.
    That would put the Jetta TDI over the 4000 gallon mark. We know from many posters that the Jetta TDI is more than capable of 45 MPG combined. I think it would be safe to expect that kind of savings. At the current $4.05 per gallon in San Diego that is $16,200 over the 120,000 miles. You said that would be about 6 years. So about $225 per month savings. :shades:
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    Your point is basically that a Jetta diesel saves a lot of gas compared to a much bigger, more powerful car (one that doesn't even compete well for MPG in its own size class)?

    You are right but you haven't made any kind of logical argument for a diesel.

    We've had three VW diesels in my family - an '84 Jetta, a '98 Jetta, and a '06 Golf. They all seemed to settle in around the mid 30s combined. Be sure to average that into your anecdotal database.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I have read through many posts here, but I would buy a diesel just for the reliability and lower maintenance costs of a diesel...What other motor are you going to get a 1/2 million miles out of

    I read your post with interest, and while some of the things you say ring true for me, I think they are largely irrelevant for 99.9% of all buyers. This is one of them. The number of people keeping their vehicle half a million miles or more, or even taking into account 500K-mile longevity in the buying decision, is probably a lot LESS than 0.1%.

    Diesel motor oil only needs to be changed between 5,000-10,000 miles.
    This is also true for every gas car I have bought: 5000 mile OCIs, or 7500 if I skimped and followed the book.

    And diesels do not have spark plugs and wires, so there are relatively no tune-up costs.

    Gassers haven't had wires in many years now (at least 10). As for spark plugs, many of them now have change intervals of 100K miles or more. Again, most buyers of new cars are not considering costs beyond 100K miles, and of those most will not even keep their vehicle that long whether they planned to or not.

    I am most familiar with the Japanese cars of course, but these days most cars have long-life plugs, long-life coolant, and the only things you have to change before 100K miles are the oil and (less frequently) the air filter. Maintenance costs for gas and diesel are close to the same. Of course, one thing you did NOT mention is that while most of th less expensive gassers still use dino oil, many of the diesels are using expensive synthetic oils at those 5-10K OCIs you mentioned. No $29.95 oil changes for those puppies.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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