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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Let's just compare an Avalon to a Prius then, if we are comparing one size UP.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    A debatable statement. The xA is an extremely competent car. VW should build a Jetta as good. They'd have had so many happier customers. Yes the two have their plusses and minuses, but the gap is surely not as wide as a Corolla to a 5 series.

    But on the other hand your analogy is valid, because both VW and BMW have high repair and maintenance costs.

    A quick glance at the reliability tables of any credible source should verify the problem.

    I guess not everyone would factor reliability into a "gas mileage decision" but I do because:

    1. The whole idea of buying an economical car like a diesel is to DRIVE IT A LOT, for many years. Trading it in after 1-2 years makes no sense.

    Soooooooo.....

    2. After the VW Jetta warranty is over, you're kinda screwed, and all that $$$ you saved on gas is lost in repairs and maintenance costs which are no secret to Jetta owners all over the world, or to Edmunds "Cost to Own" tables or to JD Power.

    I'm VW shy right now. Electrical glitches, windows that fall into doors, ignition coil foul-ups, class action suits, all this internet flak rattles my cage.

    I'm kind of a "big picture" guy, so this is how I think. "Saving" money on fuel has to be a REAL kind of saving for me, not a transfer of funds from Exxon to the VW repair shop.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    You emphasize VW problems as if they showed up for everyone. It's not just me...I have quite a few friends and relatives with VWs who love.them. Even though there were reliability issues back in 1998-99, there were no other cars out there as well trimmed and equipped out of the box as the Passat, Jetta and Golf. The 99 Golf had soft touch interior materials, few cut lines, a concealed passenger airbag (unlike GM and Ford's crude "second glovebox" cut-out style), damped handles above all doors, damped glove box door, visor over the rear view mirror, extra interior lights, electric (not manual) hatch and fuel door releases...just extra touches you did not get on a Ford, GM or Toyota back then. That you could get a sunroof equipped car with all the other bells and whistles, and still get 50 mpg was icing. Other brands are catching up with the trim detail, but VW is going ahead and improving/cleaning its diesels.

    I have never had electrical glitches or windows falling into doors on my VWs, though I did have that with a couple of my Fords. And my TDI guy is not only a genius, but reasonably priced. He does my 10,000 mi oil and filter change for $60 and that is the special oil filter required and full synthetic diesel engine oil. Again they are now just rating the 2005 models on reliability and VW didn't do badly at all. If the cars were so bad, the resale would not be as terrific as it is. I can sell my TDI any day I want to, what with people always looking for them, but I don't want to. That has to say something.

    To me, it just sounds like you are not oriented toward diesels or TDIs and that's fine. They will likely never be high revving engines, in spite of diesel power beginning to overtake gassers. In 10 years, it is likely every manufacturer will offer diesel options. But there will also be plug-in hybrids, electrics, maybe even a fuel cell car or two. The world will be your oyster. You don't have to look for proof that diesels don't make sense for your purposes. I say buy something else and be happy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well I don't gather or write the VW reliability statistics, I just pointed them out for anyone who's interested.

    As a potential diesel buyer, I really have to pay attention to VW reliability records.

    Would you buy a Daewoo based solely on my good luck with one? I doubt it.

    Besides, I've owned diesel cars, so I'm no stranger to diesel ownership nor am I hostile to them, nor am I uninterested in the opinions of people who love them. If I were, I wouldn't have started the topic.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    No, it is not radical. But you are assuming you will have trouble out of warranty. I assume I will not, and so far that's worked for me. All brands have gotten better with time. What constitutes a lemon today statistically would have been just fine years ago. I am not saying for anyone to settle on junk. I am just suggesting you be realistic about what the stats mean. And you still seem to ignore that new VWs are much better than they used to be...and better now than many other brands. Take VW out of it. If you could buy a next generation diesel Focus or Fiesta, would you?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Yes I assume I will have trouble out of warranty based on the statistics, that's true. Call me crazy. :)

    That's why everyone publishes statistics for the consumer, isn't it?

    Sure, if you gave me a 65 mpg diesel MINI, I'd buy one, definitely. And being a new model, I'd even risk the statistics.

    Or a 50 mpg diesel with good reliability costing the same as a Scion xA? Sign me up! Especially if Toyota makes it.

    But a 50 mpg diesel MINI or VW TDI, no....why should I? To save $400 a year after buying a car that's not going to be cheap to purchase in the first place?

    It's doesn't work for me (yet). I wish it did.

    Maybe if I drove 2 or 3 times as much, or if gas went up to $7 a gallon, well sure....
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    OK, here's some stats (problems per 100 vehicles per J D Power): Mini 233, Chevrolet 239, Scion 243, VW 253, Kia 278. Would I buy a Kia? Yes, I would. But that's just me.

    As for diesels (or hybrids or whatever), you cannot just figure a purchase on dollar payback. How do you put an exact dollar value on your satisfaction with one vehicle over another? Even if the payback on a hybrid or diesel is years off, what is the satisfaction of using less fossil fuel to haul my fat [non-permissible content removed] around worth? Are you someone who will trade every four years or drive the thing for 12 or even until it falls apart? The dollar comparisons will tell you something about how much you may spend on fueling, but it doesn't address other factors in vehicle ownership.

    Bottom line, I just like diesels. I like driving a car that gets so much from so little. I like that my fuel won't blow up in a collision or in those rare cases while fueling. I like the smell of diesel, but find the smell of gas scary. That's just me.
  • One important factor to consider with diesel cars is resale value. I have a 2005 Mercedes E320 CDI. The disel option was a $1,000 premium over the E320 gas model, and considerably less than an E500. Today, my CDI is worth $5-$7 thousand more than a E320 gas, and several thousand more than an E500. I suspect a similar premium exists for a used TDI Jetta.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That premium is MOSTLY the creation of an quasi-artificial resale market based on the scarcity of the vehicles versus the desire of an abundance of potential buyers combined with the fact that the cars could be purchased new in some states. Because used resale is the only avenue for hundreds of thousands of potential buyers, the resale price has gone up.

    Once diesel cars become more commonplace and all models are available NEW in all 50 states, this sort of over-valuated resale nonsense will go away, as it will with the Prius.
  • cudabobcudabob Posts: 4
    In rural areas diesel is available at nearly every station, but not every pump at every station. More demand would cure that quickly.

    We were in Spain in March of 07 - most of the taxis are diesels, and they seem to have many more model choices with diesel engines than we do in the USA. All of the drivers I talked to loved them.

    As a Dodge 3500 dually CTD owner, I am sold on the efficiency of diesel. You can't buy a heavier duty pickup than mine, and I get nearly 20mpg on the hiway AND it'll pull stumps!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    So by extrapolation therefore, will compact diesel cars pull blackberry bushes? :P That might be another reason for me to buy one.

    I agree, the resale premium on diesels will disappear once diesel cars are sold in larger numbers.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I agree as well. But right now, it is a reality and more certain than whether or not you will have any mechanical problems with a particular model. :P

    Diesel fuel costs are another thing that could change a lot. All of our goods are shipped with it. Letting it get too high will ruin our consumer economy.

    But meanwhile, there is not a lot of ability to increase current output, as gasoline demand must be met as well. If more of the overall fleet moves to diesel, then refining practices and things like "no refineries in my backyard" will have to change. Resale value may go down, but potentially the cost of the fuel, compared to gasoline could as well. All of this is speculative, and highly dependent on unpredictable world events.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Posts: 187
    Talked to the service Mgr. at Wray VW in Columbia, SC, Monday. He says the new TDI and the revised 2.0T still use belts instead of timing chains.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    He's wrong about the 2.0T for certain. As of 2009 (late 2008) the 2.0T switched away from the belt. Vortexers know the exact model number but all the later 2008 GTIs and GLIs came with a chain.

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3827436

    Maybe the TDI still uses the belts. Considering your service manager is wrong about the 2.0T, I wouldn't trust him with anything...
  • I disagree that the premium for used diesel automobiles is solely a function of scarcity in certain markets. Two examples: Used diesel light trucks have always commanded a significant premium over similar used gasoline models. Compare the value of a used Duramax or Powerstroke diesel to a used V-10 or 6.0 gasser. Also, look at the older 95-96 Mercedes 300D or an older TDI. Those cars were 50 state legal, but have always commanded a significant price premium on the used car market. My only point is that a one or two thousand dollar price premium on the front end for a modern diesel automobile is more than offset by a higher resale value down the road. It certainly makes more economic sense than spending that money on a sunroof or NAV system!
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I am a committed diesel owner, but I have to disagree with you. Using heavy duty pickups for a comparison is apples and oranges. Most people want diesel versions of HD trucks, which DEPRESSES the value of any used fuel-hungry gassers out there. With cars, however, there has practically always been a scarcity of diesel models, even with the 50 state legal ones.

    The GM diesel cars of the 1980s were dogs and fraught with problems, so their resale was nothing to write home about. Resale is high now on diesel cars and will continue to be into the foreseeable future. However, if manufacturers started to flood the market with diesel passenger car choices, the premium would likely start to disappear. It is about supply and demand after all.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think the "premium" is really just a slower depreciation rate, but as the diesel cars now in service mile up they'll become more equal in price with used gas cars. High miles is still a discouragement to resale value.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    But not as much with diesel vehicles as gassers.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Actually, you are correct that diesel cars generally DO hold their resale value better than the comparable gasser version of the same car.

    But the "out of whack" part of it right now is INDEED due to the issues I brought up in my previous post.

    Once there are more diesel cars available, and all the "serious diesel sniffers" (and I mean that in the NICEST WAY POSSIBLE of course) can get the car they want without driving to another state or buying it sight unseen from Ebay Motors, then the out-of-control price/resale craziness will go away and we will be returned to "used diesel market as usual."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Why not? Miles is miles. Auctions and price guides don't have "gas miles" and "diesel miles" as deducts.

    I do agree with you that some consumer might perceive that diesel car engines last longer than gas car engines but this perception is fraught with peril, given different manufacturers, levels of maintenance from owners, etc.

    Besides, a number like 200,000 miles is frightening to any car buyer, diesel lover or not. I regard cars with that many miles as essentially worthless.

    If I were shopping for a diesel car, it would have to be new or near new.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Miles is miles, but with diesels you also have the scarcity factor. It is not rocket science that lack of availability will cause some people to take a chance on a diesel, if they really want one, that they would not if a gasser would suffice.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    Has been about the value of used diesel and how much it saves in Petroleum because they get better fuel mileage. But it truth that savings in diesels has been at a pretty high price.

    Researching diesels and air quality we will be directed to many sites that have helped the government come out with much stricter diesels restrictions for "new" manufactured vehicles. The reason is the old ones, prior to 2005 were air quality killers.

    If we read the last paragraph of the following clean air page it tells us that while saving some fuel the old diesels using the old rules may have been responsible for 19,000 deaths. At least that is the assumption that can be made if the new regulations are said to be able to save 19,000 lives.

    http://www.catf.us/publications/view/84

    According to the published study in 2004 diesels were responsible for a increase in lung development problems for our children between 10 and 18 years old.

    Higher resale value of these older diesels mean very little to anyone truly interested in air quality. And it must be remembered I am a diesel truck fan.

    I would like to see a solution but I am nut sure I trust European quality standards to clean up the problem if we adopt a diesel vehicle rate as close as they have.

    I will have ot wait to see if the new diesels deliver as promised and until them i tend to agree with the American Lung Association that there are other alternatives.
    http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=36089

    But as long as they can make a P-zero or better diesel car I could be interested until a real viable EV is produced. But I fell that diesel trucks and SUVs will have a future as long as I am still driving.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Your post reminds me of my perspective that the diesel car we really need today has yet to be built. The old ones were for a different set of conditions and attitudes.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    "Your post reminds me of my perspective that the diesel car we really need today has yet to be built. The old ones were for a different set of conditions and attitudes. "

    That is part of my point. I realize diesels have an advantage but I am not positive it is worth it. The particulant filters may or may not work over the life of the car. If not we are back to square one.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    2008 sort of reminds me of 1908---at that time automakers were competing/battling to see if gasoline, electric or steam cars would dominate the market. Steam cars were more powerful, electric cars much cleaner and quieter (early gas cars were pretty obnoxious devices) and gasoline cars were the cheapest and easiest to make.

    As it turns out, the electric starter motor in 1912 pretty much decided the outcome. No more hand cranking, no more waiting for steam to build up, and enough cheap power to go 45 mph for as far as the road went.

    The gasoline piston engine is a formidable competitor that seems to be able to re-invent itself whenever it is threatened. I'm not so sure diesel is so very different as to "compete". I'm thinking it will be more of a small, complementary market for a much larger gasoline car market.

    If gasoline cars become obsolete, so will diesels except perhaps in very heavy industry situations that can justify the cost of fuel (railroads, for instance).
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    This might have been posted elsewhere, but this is ONE SWEET LITTLE MINI. I might go for a 50-state Clubman D to replace my TCH if I can get mileage like this:

    I would DIE(sel) for this Mini !!

    DETROIT--I'm cruising south on Interstate 75 at a steady 64 mph. If the fuel economy gauge in the car can be believed--and there's no reason that it shouldn't--I'm burning one gallon of fuel every 74 miles.

    I'm in a 2007 Mini Cooper D, and I am driving it normally. The D stands for diesel. It's a version of the popular hatchback that isn't available in the United States--yet.

    Here's a car that lets you have your high fuel economy cake and eat big slices of it, too. Just as important as the Mini Cooper D's ultralow fuel consumption is its fun-to-drive factor. It's off the charts in this car.

    The Mini Cooper D is quick. Its 1.6-liter turbocharged diesel engine propels the 2,600-pound hatchback to 60 mph in 9.7 seconds. Plus, the car is good-looking, the chassis is rock-solid, and the handling is as tight as a go-cart.

    The engine runs smoothly and, if you keep the windows up, quietly. BMW did a nice job of keeping the diesel chatter out of the interior.

    The Bosch high-pressure fuel injection system helps the engine run cleanly. I put my finger into the exhaust pipe expecting it to turn black from soot. It was clean. There was no exhaust residue in the pipe.

    The 2001-2006 first generation of the new Mini Cooper also had a diesel engine. But that car, with just 75 horsepower, did not have the chops for the U.S. market--too slow.

    The second generation, launched in 2007, has 108 horsepower and easily can run with other economy cars in its class.

    BMW plans to offer the Cooper diesel in the United States when the emissions system is robust enough to allow the car to be sold in all 50 states. The company declines to say when that might happen.

    Diesel engine technology is expensive. But if BMW could figure out a way to sell the Mini Cooper D for about the same price as a loaded Mini Cooper S, the car could be a big success here.

    But they are a long, long way from that. For now, the Cooper D would cost at least $25,000, roughly $7,000 more than the base model.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Outstanding. I am very tempted. My only obstacle is that, if the article is correct, and the car is $7,000 more than the base model, that's not a cheap economy car. Having priced out the base models many times this last year, with only the most modest of options, (manual trans, premium package, fog lights, that's about it) I came out at about $22,000. So add $7K plus tax and license and that little puppy is $32,000. And that's without NAV, leather, automatic or fancy wheels.

    Equivalently equipped Jetta comes in at $26,400.

    I'd really like to see a Turbo Diesel hatchback out the door at around $18,000.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Looks like the 74 MPG was in EURO imperial gallons, not US gallons.

    Mini D reviewed

    2008 MINI COOPER D

    Engine: Inline-4, 1.6 liters, 16v
    Output: 108 hp/177 lb-ft
    Transmission: Six-speed manual
    0-62 MPH: 9.9 sec
    Top Speed: 121 mph
    Weight: 2601 lb
    Fuel Economy, city/hwy: 50/67 mpg
    (Based on European figures)

    Might take a diesel HYBRID Mini to get 74 MPG in the USA. If they can sell THAT car to me for $35K or less I would buy it.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    The Mini was never meant to be a "cheap economy car." This is the old what is it worth for you to drive something that uses small amounts of fossil fuel, but still has the bells and whisltles to entertain or satisfy? For that matter, the Jetta is not at all an economy car either, though it can give you great mileage and wonderful features for the price. In time, there will be cheap economy cars here that are also diesels. But there are none yet. I don't want one myself, since I can afford the features of a Mini or Jetta or Golf. I wish Audi imported its A3 diesel with DSG 6 speed. That would be the car for me.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    70 MPG car in the Insight with bells and wistles but it didn't sell. I regret not getting one and have made an offer on one from a man I know in Colorado. Getting a used Honda is still a better deal than a new VW. IMHO VW has been on the bottom half of the dependability list in JD powers so long they may get a award. I am just gun shy after having had three VWs.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    is to reduce oil consumption, which it is for me, it won't be a problem spending mid-$20Ks for a Cooper diesel. Indeed, that little car sounds really great. I wish I knew the conversion factor for Imperial gallons. Would the car in the article have been pulling at least 50 mpg U.S.?

    I will bet there are people out there who, like Prius buyers, are willing to spend extra for a car with fancy gizmos and badges showing how they are reducing oil imports, but just are gun-shy of buying into this "new" hybrid technology. Those folks could be Mini Cooper D buyers.

    They could also be Jetta TDI buyers but I agree: anyone checking Consumer Reports or any other type of reliability report is going to give any VW diesel a pass.

    boaz: I am very curious to hear if you succeed in obtaining a used Insight. The prices seem outrageous right now, if you can even find one for sale. But I think 70 mpg in the real world is obtainable for anyone who buys one.

    Funny sidenote: in my area right now someone has advertised a RAV4 EV with around 30K miles for $60K. Yes, that's $60,000, twice its new price seven years ago. I am surprised, given the context of the RAV-EV and the Insight sale prices right now, that VW dealers aren't getting MAJOR premiums for TDIs right now. But apparently they aren't. The cars are selling for MSRP.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    I wish I knew the conversion factor for Imperial gallons.

    Divide Imperial by 1.2. 70 Impg = 58.3 USmpg. And for future reference, 235.2 divided by () L/km = USmpg
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    anyone checking Consumer Reports or any other type of reliability report is going to give any VW diesel a pass.

    First off, I do read these things, but I weigh a lot of factors in a car buying decision. I have had three VWs and do not regret any of the purchases at all. So your "anyone" is a bit overstated.

    TDIs selling for list are no different than Priuses selling for list. A slightly used Prius can sometimes sell for more than a new one. The reason Insight prices are so high is that they are so extremely scarce in an era when gas mileage is all of a sudden far more important to people. Supply and demand again. If VW cut projected TDI production in half, you can bet that prices would go over list at some dealers, even with VW encouraging them not to do that.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    nippononly says, "Would the car in the article have been pulling at least 50 mpg U.S.?"

    Yes. 74 MPG imperial is about 61 MPG on the USA scale. I could nearly double my mileage on my TCH if that car would consistently hit 61 MPG.

    nippononly says, "The cars are selling for MSRP"

    What area of the country are you in? Just curious: how do you know they are not marking the car up? Are you going by merely newspaper ads?

    You know they can put a different price in the paper and then have a "market adjustment" on the sticker when the buyer gets there, right? That's how some of the hybrid dealers did the markup. It's perfectly legal for them to put the mfg sticker price on the ad and then have the "dealer adjustments" added on the sticker at the lot.

    According to Edmunds, a TDI SportWagen here in Phoenix would be stickered at $28,539 with the options I would want and the "What Others In Your Area Are Paying" number is at $28,267.

    So unless the dealers are adding something on that Edmunds does not know about, the demand here must not be overwhelming if they can still sell for below sticker. Good news for TDI buyers at least !!!

    A-HA !!! I found evidence of dealer shenanigans !!! Went to the local VW dealership link on Edmunds and found the price page for the Jetta SportWagens they have in stock. The TOP three cars were non-TDI and the prices were listed. The BOTTOM FIVE cars were the TDI version and the price is listed as "call for details make an offer" !!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like they are opening up the bidding !!!!

    I'd pay $28,539 for a Mini Cooper Clubman D in a heartbeat. Not sure it a Jetta TDI would get my money at this point though. It only comes in a manual tranny, and I'm too old to be shifting gears a hundred thousand times a year !!!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    If VW cut projected TDI production in half, you can bet that prices would go over list at some dealers, even with VW encouraging them not to do that.

    Yes, but by the same token, if VW made 180K per year available like Toyota does with the Prius, I wonder what sales prices would be, eh? And resale.

    I am glad that VW is forging the way for other clean diesels here, but I am impatient for there to be a lot more choices among diesel cars. We have heard so much talk in the last couple of years, yet it now seems certain VW will be the only one to get a 50-state diesel car to market this calendar year (not including luxury makes, ie Mercedes). These other automakers with big plans to sell diesel cars need to get the lead out.

    larsb: that's just the word among the VW-philes on-line, that the TDIs are selling for around list price. Did someone mention that "what people are paying in your area" was within $300 of list price? That would seem to confirm the word coming out of VW owners' chats...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    Didn't the author just say the computer was reading 74 MPG at a constant speed? Maybe he was on a slight decline, or maybe he had a tailwind. Or maybe the opposite is true. I wouldn't put too much stock in one man's comment. For purposes of the article, it wouldn't have sounded too good to say "I have it floored passing somebody on a two lane highway, and the computer shows I am getting 12 MPG." But that is also one likely moment in time one might encounter.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I dunno about 12 mpg though - in a 2500 pound car with a small diesel in it? 32 mpg, maybe.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    I had a Passat with 1.8T. Its electronic readout would drop to around 5 mpg if I floored it at speeds under 40 mph. I thought I was being generous. How about 20 MPG?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    The Jetta comes with a DSG 6 speed, a double clutch automatic manual. If you've ever driven one, the computer does the clutching and the shifts are faster and smoother than with an automatic. It gives you manual MPG and automatic convenience. What's not to like?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yes, but by the same token, if VW made 180K per year available like Toyota does with the Prius, I wonder what sales prices would be, eh? And resale. Well, exactly. That was my point. Supply and demand.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    What's not to like?

    I haven't fully explored the required maintenance on these DSG's yet. What's the service interval? What's involved in the maintenance? What's the going rate for the service? Can an indie handle this given that it's fairly new technology?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Did Toyota actually export 180k Prius to the US for sale. I think it was all talk. How do we know how many cars VW has built with TDI. It is not very lucrative selling cars in the USA that are built in the EU. Dribbling out 15k to 20k per year to see what the market really looks like is smart business. Until VW builds a factory here I would expect limited numbers. At this point VW is the only game in town. NOTHING on the US market compares on any level with the new Jetta Sportwagon TDI. VW is the only company to make the effort to meet the 50 state emissions regulations for a diesel car. I also hope that there are others. It would be nice to see the Big 3 make some effort in that direction. Toyota will rest on its hybrids to cover the CAFE mandate for their money making SUVs and PU trucks. Honda so far is just talk. They have had the diesel in the EU for 5 years so far. Maybe 2009 will be the year of the Honda diesel. The BMW salesman that has my number says the X5d will be here by September. We shall see. I have not held my breath for any of them. I plan to test drive the new ML320 CDI when it arrives in CA also. If no other small diesel SUVs emerge it will be one of those two.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Both Audi and VW have been using this transmission for several years now. It is reportedly quite durable and trouble-free. Initially, the manual was not clear on whether any maintenance was required. The recommendation now is to change fluid and filter at 40,000 mile intervals. If you are handy, you can probably do it yourself. Still lots of owners apparently have ignored the recommendation and have gone 100K to 200K with no DSG problems. it sounds pretty bullet-proof.

    I just love driving it. Seamless shifts. No slip and slop like with a true auto. Power and mpg of a manual. These transmissions will be available from all manufacturers soon. Ford and GM have definite plans to use them here.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You can ASK $60,000 for a Toyota RAV4-EV but in fact, if it's really nice, and has a record of battery charges, you might get $45,000 for it. I actually track sales of these wonderful full-electrics! The problem is that replacement batteries, should they fail, are outrageously expensive---shocking, no pun intended.

    $32,000 to "save" gas with a base mini diesel? No thanks. It's not even the luxury model. It's the "stripper".

    That reminds me of the article I read about "Clever Mechanic Turns Hummer into an Economy Car!".

    Seems like he can make a Hummer get well over 20 mpg! He's even building one for Governor Arnie!

    A genius? Well, sort of. His "economy measures" require the installation of a turbo diesel motor for which he charges $35,000.

    Added to the cost of the original Hummer and well----I mean, this borders on satire.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "Did Toyota actually export 180k Prius to the US for sale. I think it was all talk"

    That's kind of an odd question..........If they are on pace to sell 180K, how could they NOT have imported 180,000 Priuses to the USA?

    They are on pace to sell 283,752 total Lexus/'Yota hybrids in the USA. My guess is that at least 180,000 of that total WILL be Priuses.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    If the shortages are not real they should make 180k this year. They are behind last year for the Prius by 4.5%. 100k for the rest of the hybrids seems high. I cannot find specifics for their numbers. Of course you have to know I will not buy another Toyota unless it is a diesel. Not a chance in a million I would buy another hybrid.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    "Of course you have to know I will not buy another Toyota unless it is a diesel. Not a chance in a million I would buy another hybrid."

    I have to ask why?

    Nippon,
    The guy lives in another state. He isn't happy with the Insight being a two seat car and doesn't drive that much anyway. But when he does drive he sometimes needs to haul some supplies and he ends up using his small truck. While the insight seems to have more room than the Smart to me the last one I was in did get 70MPG on the highway. It just happened to be a bit of a dog on long mountain climbs. But I don't live in the mountains anymore and I don't use the gas I once did. I put gas in the Pontiac once every three weeks and the Tahoe went 9 weeks before my last trip.

    However my bicycle has 450 miles on it since June. ;) But for me unless they made an entry level small diesel that was both clean and got 70 MPG it simply wouldn't be worth it. I believe clean diesel technology is every bit as new as Hybrid technology and it is still yet to be tested over time. I wouldn't pay 60K for a Rav-4 EV but the mileage they get per charge would make one perfect for my lifestyle.

    I am really only interested in diesel "until" we come up with an alternative to fossil fuel. Unless we discover they have been fibbing and we can expect 500 more years of fuel supply. Yes I remember the 70s and the big lie. :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    If I had to place my bets on where in the market structure a diesel passenger vehicle would succeed, I'd have to say:

    1. entry level subcompact or compact (not microcar)

    2. Small SUV or crossover

    I personally think the idea of a "luxury diesel" car is a mis-step for this country.
This discussion has been closed.