at a dealership near you - ask any salesman how many people are buried in their trades - he'll tell you 75%, probably. The other 25% don't have a trade....
LOL! Glad you haven't lost your edge, pal. I'm sure that's largely true, being in the finance business myself, I understand I'm over advanced on every car loan I have for the first 2-3 years. Ya just hope you can get to an equity position before the bankruptcy is filed.
out the gate - I can't count the number of times I've gotten advances for folks that were over MSRP by 10-15%...when they paid $100-500 over for the new car. Including using rebates...
In most of those cases, it's a never-ending cycle - they'll never be "right side up" unless they pay the loan through to maturity.
only 3 month warranty of CPO cars, as far as I know, so doesn't make much sense to buy GM CPO. Still GM succeded in CPO sales.
I also know that Ford dealers add $800 for certification. Thats not much considering warranty you get (70K for Ford). Warranty for used car may be expensive.
but the absense of some other odors might be worth it.
I too prefer new, even though economics favors used, because I don't like the unknowns of (most) used cars. Yeah, I know that CPOs have a warranty, but I want a good car, not a good warranty.
Sailor, the certification process, if done, properly can be a better guarntee of a good car than buying one new. Any new car is subject to random manufacturing defects but A CPO unit has a detailed service history and they weed out cars with high FOR or serious defects when new. That's why they can put extended warranties on them.
Chris said 20% for "degassing" is a silly price to pay.
I won't go in to the conversation THAT spawned...;)
I can't help it. I like everything there is to like about new. I had my first new car in '87 and I was just plain hooked. Hooked I tell you! Like Rush on Doans...
One problem with used cars, CPO or not, is maintenance costs. Some luxury cars include 4 years and 50K miles of free maintenance for the original owner only. You can buy a used CPO with 24K miles, then need to spend several hundred on the 30K mile service in just a few months. Then need to spend several hundred on a set of tires a year or less later. You may hit the mileage for 60K service which can be over $1500 on some cars before you are ready to sell it. You may also spend a few hundred more on various other wear items such as a brake job which are not covered by the extended warranty. If the price is anywhere near the cost of a heavily-discounted new car, you are better off with the new car. Many 1 year old CPO cars are listed at prices that approach what you could get a new version of the same car.
New or Used, which is best? Could start a new topic on that one.
Personally, I bought used when younger from necessity. While in school, I bought VERY used, like 10 year old junk, which in the 60's was really junk! Cars back then were made to last 2-3 years, after that, they were considered yard ornaments. My first new car, was a 76 Pinto upon graduation - then I went right back to slightly used, like 1-2 year old cars until 1990, when I bought my next new car. Bought new now, ever since.
I think I pay too much for my cars because they are new. I still think you get a better deal buying slightly used, either CPO or within the factory warranty period with an extended factory warranty. I just can't seem to do it lately....I'm like Wale, I just get too attracted to the new model coming out, and I have to have it NOW!
Oh I agree 100%. Low mile used is a bargain, especially in any lux line.
My BIL is an avid used lot hunter. He hasn't ever bought new in his life. I think he simply enjoys the challenge of the hunt. Not like he can't afford it!
While I'm solidly a new car fan, I've cooled on new model acquisitions, though. And not for fear of getting an untried product really, but more for letting the batch cool before sampling, and letting the real eager beavers pay the first-year premiums.
Ah, yes, that would be me Out there grabbing the first one off the truck when a new model is introduced. Got 2 of them right now. That's why I think I pay too much. I'm a moron!!
I am interested in Audi A4 and I can't afford brand new so I started looking 1-3 yr old cars. There are Pre-owned 2003 cars at this near by dealer. You save about $3-4K with 10K miles compared to New 2004. But I can't help wondering why there are 2003 used cars already,, does it mean the previous owner did not like the car for some reason or the car was simply defective and returned??? I just trying to see how those fairly newer car ended up in this position. Please anyone advise your opinion.
For example, a 2003 A4 Quattro with the 3.0 and Steptronic runs just over $40K, right? The car books at trade-in for around $27K. Hardly just a $3-4K difference.
Maybe you have a dealer problem (with pricing) and not a great look at the CPO market as a whole.
At the auctions, I saw current model year used cars all the time - many dealers will run a demo through the auction just to see what it'll do. Could be a repo. Could be a service loaner that the dealer wrote down. Hard to say.
...... Zues is right, where do you think 40/60% of the pre-owned vehicles come from, they come from the auctions .. 04's are already there and it has nothing to do with Audi, Chevy, MB, Scion, Chrysler, GMC, Acura, Caddy, etc , etc, it just has to do with economics 101 ...
Folks think that every dealer keeps every vehicle that is traded in, they can't financially, so they don't ... a guy comes in to trade his 03 Audi because it's too big, too small, too green, too orange, it's a one year lease, the dog doesn't like it, Or ~ maybe he did it because "he Can" ..
These are vehicles sometimes with little or no miles and showroom ready, but if the dealer has two or three of them, or his floorplan is getting bloated it's going bye bye to the auction ... when they get to the auction, the UC mgr might spot a clean low miler 01 Acura TL or a Audi and replace his $27/$28,0 with a $17,0 vehicle that will (hopefully) sell quicker in his area .. in the meantime the guy standing next to him, might buy the 03 Audi and could be selling the Camry five lanes down, and the guy that sold the TL to the guy that sold the Audi, might need a Camry and will bid on it - and on, and on, and on it goes ....
If you've bought a certified used vehicle and would be willing to talk about your experience on camera for a tv audience, please contact Jackie Sobie at jackiesobie@aol.com asap no later than November 1, 2003. Be sure to include your daytime phone number and your city and state. Thanks! Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Hello, Thank you for your commnets. The one that I'm looking for is Audi A4 1.8T Quattro Automatic with premium package, cold pakcage, bose speaker, alloy wheel. about 10K miles. The dealer price $27,900 include warranty "The remainder of the original Audi New Car Warranty is good till February 26,2007 or 50,000 miles plus the Audi Certified Pre-Owned Warranty good till February 26,2009 or 100,000 miles on odometer whichever comes first." , which like I said I think come about 40K savings and I double checked the kelly book and gave me about that dealer price too.. So how does it go down by 17K difference like Zues is saying? I mean that's great I know there's great discount available out there but how can i negotiate with dealer?? I appreciate your comments and tips!
...... I usually do this over at the "Real-World Trade-In Values" over at the "Smart Shopper" deal, but since I shot a 39 today for 9 holes, then I will let this one pass ...
It's an 03 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro Automatic with premium package, cold package, Bose speaker, alloy wheel. about 10K miles. The dealer price $27,900 and that includes the include warranty .... depending on where you live, the dealer probably paid in and around $23ish for it, so by the time they do the service, kick the warranty in, "certify" it, a this and a that, detail, pack, yatty yatty, it probably comes to the table at around $24,5/$25,0 .. eh' at $27,9 their not trying to kill anyone, you can try $26,5/$26,9 and see what that does, but don't lose it if you really like it for a few hundred over here or there, they are popular, especially with a 100k warranty ...
Hello jvc_uscg. I do not know all of the specifics of Lexus' Certified Used Vehicle program, but I suspect that Lexus dealers can not certify vehicles that they do not sell on their own lots. Having said this, if you really want the vehicle that you are looking at you still can take it to a garage or a Lexus dealer to have them check it out. Assuming that it passes this inspection, you can then purchase an official Lexus "Extended Service Coverage" policy for this car or truck. Here is a link to the section of Lexus' Web site that contains information on its extended warranties: Lexus Warranty/Protection Page. You should be able to purchase an official Lexus extended warranty for your vehicle from any Lexus dealership that you want, not just the one that you plan on having your service done at. Furthermore, in most states the prices of extended warranties are negotiable. So shop around, either by e-mail, the phone, or in person to see what sort of prices you are quoted for the level of coverage that you desire.
I've read all of the thread about buying a CPO vehicle and have come to the conclusion you need to the following things:
* Get everything in writing * Have your own trusted mechanic throughly look over the CPO vehicle * The premium for buying a CPO vehicle is always negotiable. Some of these dealers need to wake up and quit being so greedy! The customer always has alternatives to a CPO vehicle. * CPO vehicles are what they are - used. * You can always shop around for a factory-backed extended warranty.
I've also heard of the horror stories of dealerships slapping a CPO stickers on every other car on their parking lot with backing up. How does one distinguish the good Honda dealerships from the bad ones? I thought using the Better Business Bureau was a start in the right direction.
I just wish Honda would create some kind of internal policing, which would discipline some of these rouge dealerships that have chronically stepped over the line!
There's been mention of many used cars on dealer lots come from auctions. As I'm in the market for a used car (98-00 Camry w/V6), I'm finding that most of these are on dealer lots. When I run carfax on these, I notice that many were originally sold in the Northeast, then end up in North Carolina. Is it common for cars to move around the country through the auctions or do they usually stay in the same region ?
........ It's kinda hard to say exactly were it came from, the dealer would know .. It could of come from the Baltimore/DC auction, it could of come from the big Manheim in PA, it could of come from the Statesville auction down the street from you in North Carolina, thats still considered the NE region .. without me actually counting, there is probably 10+ big auctions in a 500 mile circumference .... does it make a difference .?.....
Not being familiar with the auction system, I wasn't sure if it was normal for cars to move around the country that much after being traded in. It sounds like it is though. So when a car is traded in at a dealership, do they usually get sent to the nearest auction house ? I was just curious how this works.
Are these auction open to the public and if so, how do you find out about them. I don't think I'd buy a car from an auction, but it might be interesting to see.
Hi Don. Dealers keep some of the vehicles that consumers trade in and send others to auction. Which ones dealers keep depends upon their current supply of used vehicles, the type of vehicle being traded in, and its condition and mileage. Most dealers will sent every high mileage trade-in that they get to auction. Unfortunately, the sort of auto auctions that you and Terry are talking about are not open to the general public. Only people with dealer licenses may attend them.
I bought a certified used Honda and was blinded by the "inspection process".....
I later found out the the car has at least $1000 worth of body damage that still needs fixing. The certified inspector didn't pick up on it...and the dealer says sorry, it is your car now
Its a great car (2003 EX V6), but don't trust that the dealers have done what they are supposed to when inspecting these cars. Buyer beware!
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
The weather was poor when I test drove the car and when I took delivery. I also has my 2 small children running around as a distraction...my fault of course. Also, as I've said, I was blinded by the certification and inspection and all that. I didn't even try to look the car over as well as I usually do, much less consider having the car inspected by an independent person. I don't expect anyone to offer me help and assume I'll end up paying the $1000+ to get the car repaired correctly.
I respect your opinion that $1000 isn't much for body work, but I will say again I would not have bought this car if I had been told that it had been wrecked. I was there to buy a NEW 2004 EX V6 but was sold on this car by a good salesman.
Anyway, my point in posting here is just to let people know not to be blinded by the certification like I was. Go over the car/have the car inspected just as you would for any other used car purchase.
Thanks for your reply, and Happy New Year! Tom
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
I've had 1-2K worth of damage on cars in the last 3 years, and guess what. They were all cosmetic, dents that happened in the parking lot. You bought a used car. To call it "wrecked" after a grand in body damage is a wee bit of hyperboly in my opinion. Now, you mention that it wasn't fixed correctly, and that you're re-doing it. What exactly wasn't done right?
We all have different opinions. As I have said I respect the opinion that you may not consider a car "wrecked" if the repair cost is less than some dollar amount. To me, a car that has been damaged enough to need work in a body shop has been wrecked (not including door dings, paint chips, etc.). The previous owner backed this particular car into a pole, damaging the rear bumper, quarter panel and door. To me, that's a wreck. I respect your opinion if you want to call it something else.
My main point in posting here is not to rant or vent, but merely to state the fact that people shouldn't give these certification programs as much credit as I thought they deserved. No matter who says they stand behind a car, if it is a used car it is still buyer beware. The required appearance inspections are subjective. I should have realized this and examined the car more carefully.
Thanks for your reply, and Happy New Year! Tom
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
Just realized I didn't answer your question. The door and quarter were not correctly reshaped. The door is warped outward and the quarter panel is wavy. The inside rear lip of the door has surface rust because several inches of it has no paint. The paint doesn't match (it is darker) and the car was painted with the bumper on so the seam between the body/bumper is full of paint. This has started to peel out and is taking some of the surface paint with it.
Tom
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
Sounds like they did a lousy job of repairing the damage. That dealer should have had it re-done properly.
Still...you are correct, you really should have caught it yourself. I would never buy a used car at night for this reason.
But, Prod is correct...it has NOT been "wrecked" in the sense of the word. When it gets redone by a quality shop it'll look like new. It isn't "damaged goods".
Heck, you could do the same thing yourself in a parking lot!
I'll echo Isell's comments. I guess a wreck in my deffinition is something that affected the frame of the vehicle. what happened to your vehicle falls into more of the "fender-bender" category.
I can sympathize with your situation, however, and it seems a little hinky that they didn't notice it. any used car manager worth his salt should have spotted that.
I'm looking at buying a pre-owned certified 2003 Honda Accord EX, V6 coupe next year, and I would like to find out the methodology these Honda dealerships use to derive this premium/profitable value for their certified pre-owned cars?
I'm thinking the formula goes like this:
LABOR (a national standard mechanic's billing rate per hour X total hours serviced on the car) + PARTS (summed) = the "DOLLAR VALUE" that Honda dealers charge their customers for that extra piece of mind, LOL!!!
What do you think?
Matter of fact, Edmunds.com is the only car site that adds this premium value to the base price of a used car. However, they don't explain how the derived this value.
To be honest, I'm still "wishy washy" about Honda's whole entire certified pre-owned, 150 point inspection program to begin with. To make things worse, a lot of these certified pre-owned vehicles are almost the same price as a new one, which makes me wonder if they are really worth it to begin with! Shoot, I would rather just take a non-certified pre-owned 2003 Honda Accord to an ASE-certified, Master Mechanic and have him look it over from the front bumper to the tailpipe for any mechanical/structural "issues" before I plop any money down.
...... I have pondered those figures myself .. Edmunds will show $1,5/$2,5 more on "certified" retail numbers than on private sales .. as long as it's Not an Audi, BMW or a Benz type, then $800/$900 thats fine .. but $1,5/$2,500.? .. not where I come from .l.o.l..
Comments
In most of those cases, it's a never-ending cycle - they'll never be "right side up" unless they pay the loan through to maturity.
I also know that Ford dealers add $800 for certification. Thats not much considering warranty you get (70K for Ford). Warranty for used car may be expensive.
I like new. A lot. I think the aroma is worth the 20%.
Not sensible by any stretch of the imagination, but then neither are most cars...
I too prefer new, even though economics favors used, because I don't like the unknowns of (most) used cars. Yeah, I know that CPOs have a warranty, but I want a good car, not a good warranty.
Sailor, the certification process, if done, properly can be a better guarntee of a good car than buying one new. Any new car is subject to random manufacturing defects but A CPO unit has a detailed service history and they weed out cars with high FOR or serious defects when new. That's why they can put extended warranties on them.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I won't go in to the conversation THAT spawned...;)
I can't help it. I like everything there is to like about new. I had my first new car in '87 and I was just plain hooked. Hooked I tell you! Like Rush on Doans...
You can buy a used CPO with 24K miles, then need to spend several hundred on the 30K mile service in just a few months. Then need to spend several hundred on a set of tires a year or less later. You may hit the mileage for 60K service which can be over $1500 on some cars before you are ready to sell it. You may also spend a few hundred more on various other wear items such as a brake job which are not covered by the extended warranty.
If the price is anywhere near the cost of a heavily-discounted new car, you are better off with the new car. Many 1 year old CPO cars are listed at prices that approach what you could get a new version of the same car.
Personally, I bought used when younger from necessity. While in school, I bought VERY used, like 10 year old junk, which in the 60's was really junk! Cars back then were made to last 2-3 years, after that, they were considered yard ornaments. My first new car, was a 76 Pinto upon graduation - then I went right back to slightly used, like 1-2 year old cars until 1990, when I bought my next new car. Bought new now, ever since.
I think I pay too much for my cars because they are new. I still think you get a better deal buying slightly used, either CPO or within the factory warranty period with an extended factory warranty. I just can't seem to do it lately....I'm like Wale, I just get too attracted to the new model coming out, and I have to have it NOW!
My BIL is an avid used lot hunter. He hasn't ever bought new in his life. I think he simply enjoys the challenge of the hunt. Not like he can't afford it!
While I'm solidly a new car fan, I've cooled on new model acquisitions, though. And not for fear of getting an untried product really, but more for letting the batch cool before sampling, and letting the real eager beavers pay the first-year premiums.
Plenty of folks around here to take care of that for you...
|-]
wait, that didn't come out right.......
well, maybe it did.......
Please anyone advise your opinion.
For example, a 2003 A4 Quattro with the 3.0 and Steptronic runs just over $40K, right? The car books at trade-in for around $27K. Hardly just a $3-4K difference.
Maybe you have a dealer problem (with pricing) and not a great look at the CPO market as a whole.
At the auctions, I saw current model year used cars all the time - many dealers will run a demo through the auction just to see what it'll do. Could be a repo. Could be a service loaner that the dealer wrote down. Hard to say.
Folks think that every dealer keeps every vehicle that is traded in, they can't financially, so they don't ... a guy comes in to trade his 03 Audi because it's too big, too small, too green, too orange, it's a one year lease, the dog doesn't like it, Or ~ maybe he did it because "he Can" ..
These are vehicles sometimes with little or no miles and showroom ready, but if the dealer has two or three of them, or his floorplan is getting bloated it's going bye bye to the auction ... when they get to the auction, the UC mgr might spot a clean low miler 01 Acura TL or a Audi and replace his $27/$28,0 with a $17,0 vehicle that will (hopefully) sell quicker in his area .. in the meantime the guy standing next to him, might buy the 03 Audi and could be selling the Camry five lanes down, and the guy that sold the TL to the guy that sold the Audi, might need a Camry and will bid on it - and on, and on, and on it goes ....
Terry.
Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
The one that I'm looking for is Audi A4 1.8T Quattro Automatic with premium package, cold pakcage, bose speaker, alloy wheel. about 10K miles. The dealer price $27,900 include warranty "The remainder of the original Audi New Car Warranty is good till February 26,2007 or 50,000 miles plus the Audi Certified Pre-Owned Warranty good till February 26,2009 or 100,000 miles on odometer whichever comes first." , which like I said I think come about 40K savings and I double checked the kelly book and gave me about that dealer price too.. So how does it go down by 17K difference like Zues is saying? I mean that's great I know there's great discount available out there but how can i negotiate with dealer?? I appreciate your comments and tips!
The vehicle you're looking at sounds like a great package deal.
It's an 03 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro Automatic with premium package, cold package, Bose speaker, alloy wheel. about 10K miles. The dealer price $27,900 and that includes the include warranty .... depending on where you live, the dealer probably paid in and around $23ish for it, so by the time they do the service, kick the warranty in, "certify" it, a this and a that, detail, pack, yatty yatty, it probably comes to the table at around $24,5/$25,0 .. eh' at $27,9 their not trying to kill anyone, you can try $26,5/$26,9 and see what that does, but don't lose it if you really like it for a few hundred over here or there, they are popular, especially with a 100k warranty ...
Good luck - and of course let me know ..
Terry.
Can I take the car to a Lexus dealer, have them check out the car, certify it, and offer an extended warranty before I purchase the car?
Any other comments on the cons from buying a used Lexus from a non-Lexus dealer would be appreciated.
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
* Get everything in writing
* Have your own trusted mechanic throughly look over the CPO vehicle
* The premium for buying a CPO vehicle is always negotiable. Some of these dealers need to wake up and quit being so greedy! The customer always has alternatives to a CPO vehicle.
* CPO vehicles are what they are - used.
* You can always shop around for a factory-backed extended warranty.
I've also heard of the horror stories of dealerships slapping a CPO stickers on every other car on their parking lot with backing up. How does one distinguish the good Honda dealerships from the bad ones? I thought using the Better Business Bureau was a start in the right direction.
I just wish Honda would create some kind of internal policing, which would discipline some of these rouge dealerships that have chronically stepped over the line!
~ D
lots come from auctions. As I'm in the market for
a used car (98-00 Camry w/V6), I'm finding that
most of these are on dealer lots. When I run
carfax on these, I notice that many were
originally sold in the Northeast, then end up
in North Carolina. Is it common for cars to
move around the country through the auctions or
do they usually stay in the same region ?
Thanks
Don
Terry
Are these auction open to the public and if so,
how do you find out about them. I don't think I'd
buy a car from an auction, but it might be interesting to see.
Don
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
I later found out the the car has at least $1000 worth of body damage that still needs fixing. The certified inspector didn't pick up on it...and the dealer says sorry, it is your car now
Its a great car (2003 EX V6), but don't trust that the dealers have done what they are supposed to when inspecting these cars. Buyer beware!
Tom (my site http://www.pointech-va.com/honda/)
I'm curious...how can a car need 1000.00 of body damage that needs fixing and you didn't see it?
With today's prices, 1000.00 in body work isn't much. It also doesn't really hurt the car if properly repaired.
I respect your opinion that $1000 isn't much for body work, but I will say again I would not have bought this car if I had been told that it had been wrecked. I was there to buy a NEW 2004 EX V6 but was sold on this car by a good salesman.
Anyway, my point in posting here is just to let people know not to be blinded by the certification like I was. Go over the car/have the car inspected just as you would for any other used car purchase.
Thanks for your reply, and Happy New Year! Tom
My main point in posting here is not to rant or vent, but merely to state the fact that people shouldn't give these certification programs as much credit as I thought they deserved. No matter who says they stand behind a car, if it is a used car it is still buyer beware. The required appearance inspections are subjective. I should have realized this and examined the car more carefully.
Thanks for your reply, and Happy New Year! Tom
Tom
Still...you are correct, you really should have caught it yourself. I would never buy a used car at night for this reason.
But, Prod is correct...it has NOT been "wrecked" in the sense of the word. When it gets redone by a quality shop it'll look like new. It isn't "damaged goods".
Heck, you could do the same thing yourself in a parking lot!
Good Luck and Happy new Year!
I can sympathize with your situation, however, and it seems a little hinky that they didn't notice it. any used car manager worth his salt should have spotted that.
I'm thinking the formula goes like this:
LABOR (a national standard mechanic's billing rate per hour X total hours serviced on the car) + PARTS (summed) = the "DOLLAR VALUE" that Honda dealers charge their customers for that extra piece of mind, LOL!!!
What do you think?
Matter of fact, Edmunds.com is the only car site that adds this premium value to the base price of a used car. However, they don't explain how the derived this value.
To be honest, I'm still "wishy washy" about Honda's whole entire certified pre-owned, 150 point inspection program to begin with. To make things worse, a lot of these certified pre-owned vehicles are almost the same price as a new one, which makes me wonder if they are really worth it to begin with! Shoot, I would rather just take a non-certified pre-owned 2003 Honda Accord to an ASE-certified, Master Mechanic and have him look it over from the front bumper to the tailpipe for any mechanical/structural "issues" before I plop any money down.
Thanks for the insight,
Darren
Terry.