Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles

zueslewis

I've had people get really mad because I wouldn't call the previous owner at home so the prospective buyer can give them the fifth degree.

When I wouldn't do it, they'd say "Just give me the number and I'll call". I can just see the lawsuit now.

There are definitely people who shouldn't by anything - they should keep the cars they have in order to keep others from being miserable because of having to deal with them.

rivertown

"He's probably right. What do I know anyway?"
I think you know a lot more than you let on, meant as complement to your knowledge.

"Of course, I was talking about BEFORE the actual sale." I thought you were referring to Tyden's experience, since it was what this thread was addressing. My apologies as appropriate.
"When I see people touching every rock chip on a six year old car, and asking countless questions about the car's history etc, I know these people shouldn't be buying used." Seems like the right way to evaluate a used car, to me.

"In most cases, I don't know the car's history and I tell them that." Makes sense to me if the car's not the make your dealership handles. Otherwise, don't you have access to service records by vin#?
"When they ask me if it's ever been in an accident, I tell them I have no way of knowing because I don't." For real? Ya'll don't use Carfax, inspect for paintwork and bodywork? That's very hard to believe; but, if it's true, there's something wrong. Would a pro really buy a used car and not do this stuff?

"If something about a used car scares a person, they should keep looking." I agree.

FWIW, a used car salesman not knowing stuff like this would be a BIG red flag for me. Just like a private seller's not having his service records or 'not knowing' if his car had been in an accident would be a BIG red flag for me.

isellhondas

But I'm going to respond to you.

No need to copy my post, I know what I said.

I'll try to enlighten you a bit...

Unless we have actual service records (rare) or know where the car was serviced, a dealer really doesn't have a way of knowing the car's service history.

On some upscale makes, it is possible to search dealership service records by calling a dealer that sells that make and asking for a big favor. some makes (not many)have their dealerships interconnected. This usually isn't going to happen.

Unless an accident is a bad one that gets reported, it'll never hit the Car Fax. Even major accidents often don't show up. We do Car Fax all of the cars we take as trades as well as the ones we buy at auction. If it shows an accident record we wholesale the cars.

Also, an "accident" can show up on Car Fax as something sinister when it may have been nothing more than a slight collision that hurt nothing.

So, I have a buyer looking at a used car. Unless it was my personal trade in, I really have no way of knowing that car's history. If I get a persistant "history buff" I'll try to find out what I can. I'm not about to make things up or gloss over things.

And If I can tell I have a cynical shopper, I'll suggest that we simply look at something else.

If I get a real nitpicker I'll gently say one of the following...

" Well, it looks like this may not be the car for you, let's look at somthing else"

Or...

" It's a used car, it's seven years old and it's not going to be perfect"

As I said before, some people are too picky or cautious to buy used and should simply buy new.

That was my only point.

rivertown

I get your point, and it seems reasonable to me. Some used car lots want the 'cream-puff' hunters, and others just don't - is how I'd take it as a customer.

zueslewis

people think CARFAX tells all - it doesn't.

anonymousposts

A few key points have been missed.

Overall Honda has the top-rated certification program in the business.

http://intellichoice.com/preowned/pre-main.cfm

So any problem here is with the dealer, not with Honda.

As for the steering wheel, a leather wheel is not original equipment on an Accord LX, why should they cover it? It's not a mechanical issue nor is it original equipment which should be covered under the additional warranty provided under the certification program. Nor did an Accord LX come equipped with keyless entry. Unless you have that in writing then again, the dealer was under no obligation to provide you with them.

As for the maintenance that was supposedly not done, have you bothered to check the owner's manual to see what should have been done at the 15,000 and 30,000 mile check-ups? Does the owners manual specify a radiator flush or the replacement of spark plugs?

And for someone that did "alot" of research didn't you know to get everything in writing? That's rule #1 when purchasing anything or entering into any contracts ... any verbal agreements must be put in writing or they hold about as much water as a collander in court.

I'm tired of the whole "the dealer took advantage of me" argument. The dealer can't take advantage of you if you don't let them.

sonjaab

ANY dealer no matter if it GM, Honda, Brand X can
bring up the VIN and service history on any brand
they sell new. So it goes to reason a Honda dealer could use their computer and bring up any past warranty or service job done by them or another Honda dealer. You can do it with a GM, Mopar, Ford, BMW
to name a few ...so I see why not a Honda?
Unless they have something to hide..........

isellhondas

You don't know. Honda does NOT have a system where we can look up service history that was done at a different dealer. I know Saturn does and I think a couple of the upscale brands do too.

And, who's to say that the service work was even done at the dealership? A lot of people use independants for service work.

zueslewis

pulled from dealer to dealer, like isell says.

Dealers aren't linked together - they're separate franchises and have no reason to inter-communicate. When a warranty labor operation is submitted, though, it is put on the warranty history and another dealer can usually pull that, but only because it's a report that comes from the manufacturer.

Service is all internal and there's no way to really know what has or hasn't been done, unless you have the invoices.

bretfraz

I know Lexus and Infiniti have central databases linking dealerships in a service network. If service work was done at a dealer it will be stored in the database. I don't know if Saab has a similar network (I should know but I've never asked).

Craig and Jim make important points about service records. For example I had the 30K service done by an independent shop instead of the dealer. If someone checked the national database to see if that work had been done, obviously it would not show up. The point is that these kinds of records are nice but you cannot depend on them to tell you the whole story of a particular car's history.

zueslewis

even have service work on their car histories - usually the ones who cover maintenance like VW, BMW and MB, since the dealer enters a warranty labor op to get paid. No one else does.

sonjaab

Any GM dealer can turn up any and all history on
any GM car with the VIN#. It will show any repair, warranty recall etc. done by any GM dealer, even previous owner(s) etc.... Ford and Mopar are prob. the same...Thats funny that Toyota and
some others don't......

Found this out last year when shopping for a used 02
Caddy.....Salesman at a Chev./olds/buick store said: "Yup ! 1 owner little old lady, swapped it for something smaller. Ex- Rental, Lemon
buyback?...NO Way!"

This same store got busted this year for not disclosing lemon buy backs, ex-rentals, lease returns, salvaged etc......

Took the VIN# to my GM tech bud at a GM multi-store.
YUP---EX GM Buyback Lemon ! Printed off stores GM
computer.

For piece of mind and 3k more I bought a new Caddy.

zueslewis

if that was the earlier question.

I always recommend to potential used car buyers (and have in interviews), that you check the warranty history, run a CARFAX (in its limited value) and have your mechanic check it out.

Insert this address to see what I mean:

www.extratv.com/dailynews/consumer/06_01/06_25a.html

sonjaab

Offer Carfax etc... On all their used cars in my neck
of the woods. But they DO get higher used car prices tho.
I would think their auction buyer person would have to
be REALLY SHARP when buying....
 Do any of you auction buyers run a Carfax etc. on a
car you might buy right on the spot before you bid on it?

rivertown

Anony -
You just might be in the wrong place if you're really tired of the whole "the dealer took advantage of me" argument, LOL. This board is rife with 'em, and some of 'em seem valid.
"The dealer can't take advantage of you if you don't let them." That's true, if simplistic. It implies, though, that it's legit for the dealer to take advantage if he can get away with it. Is that what the carbiz is all about?

Sonja -
 I got Isell's point - that he'd just as soon not deal with customers interested in a car's history of service or accident. If he were interested in such customers, he could always say "The records show no warranty work; the Carfax is clean; and our inspection shows no evidence of a previous accident."
Like you, I presume, I have assumed that someone who withholds readily available info is concealing something; but I'm learning that's not always the case. Very often it's about making a point rather than about hiding or illuminating anything.
If you're interested in where I'm coming from on this, take a look at post #9433 on the "Inconsiderate Buyer's" thread.

In general -
I've done some poking around on the web and found that a used car dealer's duty to disclose varies from state to state. Some states require disclosure in writing of significant existing mechanical and structural defects; one state requires disclosure of "any condition which might influence the buyer's decision to purchase the vehicle"; some states require the used car dealer to provide info about the previous owner if the buyer requests it. It was interesting to read that 'I don't know' can amount to 'fraud by silence' in one state and carries treble damages, and it was real interesting to find out that a dealer can be successfully sued by the buyer to whom his customer sells the car if the 1st sale was fraudulent. Most private party sales are not governed by the duty to disclose, but some states have laws allowing private sale buyers to rescind the deal if the car fails inspection shortly after the purchase.
Perhaps the most immediately useful thing I found was an organization, The Center for Auto Safety in Washington, D.C., which lists attorneys in various states who are experienced in dealer fraud and warranty issues. Yup, that's Ralph Nader's baby. http://www.autosafety.org/

isellhondas

I don't mind at all dealing with people who have a lot of questions regarding a car's history.

I simply tell them what I know. I'll show them the Car Fax and I'll go over our technician's inspection report with them line by line.

They will know exactly what I know about the car.

Every month we dump/wholesale probably 40-50 cars that we won't sell due to their condition.

Still, no used car is ever perfect and people need to accept that.

rivertown

I got you wrong earlier.

What you're describing here would work for me even if I were on a 'cream puff' hunt.

Even a cream puff isn't perfect, huh? ;-{ Sounds fair, though.

sonjaab

YUP !....Truth, Lies, and Hooey !
I loved the posts in response to that one....
They sure were not nice. But it figures....geo

rivertown

Let's not stir, okay?

I ran into those ideas years ago, and I think they really help.

BTW, do you know Chautauqua? I had family there.

anonymousposts

"That's true, if simplistic. It implies, though, that it's legit for the dealer to take advantage if he can get away with it. Is that what the carbiz is all about?"

It's not Ok for the dealer to take advantage of someone. However, if someone who claims to have done "alot" of research gets taken advantage of it's not the dealer's fault. They are there to make money. It's a business. I can respect that even if I don't agree with it. And it does not seem that the dealer was out to take advantage of someone.

Maybe the salesman made empty promises .. happens all the time where I work. Consumers need to be smart enough to get those promises in writing so they have a leg to stand on if the dealer drops the ball. As it is, they didn't have to provide the keyless entry or try to fix the steering wheel. But they did anyways .. this shows that the dealer is trying to work with the customer, not take advantage of them.

rivertown

"It's not Ok for the dealer to take advantage of someone."
That's good to hear.

"Maybe the salesman made empty promises .. happens all the time where I work."
Ooops, not so cool.

"they didn't have to provide the keyless entry or try to fix the steering wheel"
Why not? Because nobody can 'force' them to? It's what they promised to do when they sold the car.

"this shows that the dealer is trying to work with the customer, not take advantage of them."
You're saying the dealer is 'working with' Tyden by keeping his word to her. Most places, honoring one's word doesn't count as a favor. It's simple integrity.

This is all coming back to "it's legit for the dealer to take advantage if he can get away with it." There's nothing respectable about that.

FWIW and IMO, getting it in writing would simply give Tyden a little more leverage in trying to force an untrustworthy dealer to keep his word. The problem is not in her lack of power to force; it's in the dealer's untrustworthiness and in her trusting him in the first place.

tydenmal

Like I said before, I'm not going to participate in unnecessary dialog. Some of these people must be salespeople. I haven't gotten over to the dealer yet, I've had some family emergencies since the last time I went to the dealer and I let them know about it so they didn't think I said all of that for nothing or I'm letting it go. My grandmother died over the weekend and just before that my 14 year old brother was being sent away because of his behavior in and out of school and again I was in the dark by believing my mother and brother that "everything is fine" and "he's doing good in school" when all along he has been in some serious trouble and I didn't know it.

Maybe some of these people would think I should have done my research here to, huh? I mean I was just going on what they say. Its my mother and brother and they didn't tell me anything in 4 years about any problems. I talk to them all the time but they live 45 minutes away from me, what do you think, should I have been sneaking around to and calling their neighbors that I don't even know to back up their "story." Who does that?

And like I said before, there was some ignorance on my part for not knowing to have it all in writing? I let the salesperson kill me with all kinds of huns and sweethearts and yes yes yes to every question I asked. Making me think okay maybe this is all basically standard. So I guess I was begging to be taken advantage of, right? No matter how you want to word it, that is what they did. Just like my mother saying that my brother is okay.

rivertown

FWIW, I still don't think 'getting it in writing' would have been much of a safeguard. LOL, you had to push 'em just get 'em to clean out the car. 'Writing' would help if you had to get an attorney, but the stuff they promised to do would likely cost as much to get done with an attorney as it would cost to just take the car to a reputable shop. IMO, ya'll didn't have a simple misunderstanding that 'writing' would fix.
FWIW - II, I still think it would be good to let the Honda zone folks know about your buying experience and, while you're at it, confirm that you actually have the Honda certified warranty.

I get the parrallel 'tween the family and the car stuff. Good thing your bro has got a sis. (You can delete your own post if you don't want the personal info to come back to haunt you.)

Yup, LOL, some of the posters have said they are salespeople (or otherwise in the carbiz) at various times on various threads. You can sometimes get a little more info about a poster by clicking on the username.

anonymousposts

Small claims court is free. And were the promises in writing you would have more of a chance getting help from American Honda. As it is, I'm sure they get plenty of frivolous complaints constantly from customers who feel like they were taken advantage of.

Since I work at a dealer, I have no sympathy. I deal with these types of customers all day. People trying to get $220 for a key when it turns out they bought a key, mats, and a bug shield. People who swear I told them one thing when I know I didn't. I'm not a salesman but I still deal with these types of things. People feel they were taken advantage of even when everything we do is in writing.

rroyce10

..... That door does swing both ways, and after being in this biz for 18 years, I certainly have coughed up many floor mats, keys, free oil changes, tires, touch-ups, tune-ups, details, 1st payment made by the dealer, last payment made on his trade etc, etc ... just so the buyer wouldn't feel he didn't get cheated ~~

       The funny part is, 90% of the time, the buyer had a Great "imagination" .. but whatever it takes .. but even then, that's not enough.!

               Terry.

rivertown

I agree, some customers will gouge and/or be impossible to satisfy.

More important, IMHO, is this 'empty promise' thing. It is hypocritical for a salesguy to make 'empty promises', as if they were nothing, and then to whine about customer expectations.
(Terry, I don't read you that way, BTW. Anony, I can't tell for sure.)

Most important, IMHO, is that the salesguy (the pro) didn't commit the deal to paper. Many honest business people do just that, to protect themselves from this sort of 'misunderstanding'. And, many honest salespeople keep their sales pitch in line with what they're actually willing to do and to write down. Tyden's salesguy didn't do any of this. LOL, he didn't even have the car clean for pick-up.

So, I agree about being fair. But, that means calling a spade a spade and addressing the salesguy's unwillingness in this situation to meet even minimally his responsibilities. It's clear to me that he exploited ordinary expectations in order to avoid meeting minimal ones and set extra-ordinary expectations in order to make some extra bucks.

To address an earlier point of yours, Anony, I think making a buck is a respectable endeavor. Shysterism, in my book, however, is all the more despicable when it's in pursuit of a buck.

So, yes, let's be fair.

peeete

I just sat and read this entire thread in one sitting. It was very interesting reading when viewed in its totality.

First, despite the apparent poor serivce by Tydens dealer, it is ultimatley her fault for closing on a sale where the car clearly had not been properly prepared. This is basic common sense, and has nothing to do with "experience." If a final test drive before paying the final portion of the purchase price revealed an alignment issue, why would anyone hand over money? THe same with the car being dirty. This is obviously a very substandard dealer, and frankly Honda should get all over them for it.

I happen to disagree that if your a fussy buyer you should not buy a used car. I am self-aware enough to know that I fit into that category, but that should not knock me out from buying used. THe excuse fo being "too fussy" is due to the ingrained, unethical sales practices of many (but certainly not all) dealers, who sell by the sin of ommission approach; say as little as possible and hope the buyer doesnt notice.

If the buying public felt that dealers delt honestly with them, this would be a far less significant issue. In the current way of doing business, the buyer MUST be a detective and demand answers. I mean, if I am spending $30,000 for a used car, I expect that my questions will be answered in a professional manner, with no bs. Many car salesmen simply dont understand this.

In terms of car history, I would never buy a car unless I got copies of the service records from a central warranty database, reviewed carfax, reviewed the "certification" work report to see what if any parts were replaced and adjusted.

I would also, (here is where it gets controversial) attempt to check if all the vin numbers match.

There were several comments indicating that the dealer doent know if the car was ever in an accident. WHile there is no direct knowledge in most cases, and it is proper to disclose that, I bet a competent mechanic can spend 5 minutes under a car and get a fair idea if there have been accident issues. I dont think it is unreasonable for a dealer to state in writing, that their mechanic, in the normal course of the certification/inspection process, did not observe any indications of a prior accident, While not a warrantee, it at least binds the dealershp into making an attempt. THe state disclosure forms really cover this when they are required.

Bear in mind I am not talking about 7 year old cars. Yes, a buyer should expect less than perfection. But if Im buying a 2 year old volvo for $28,000 that is certified, you can be sure than other than minor door dings, everything should in be in good order, and the dealer should honestly disclose everything UP FRONT.

Ultimatley, the way used cars are sold means that the buyer has to perform Due Diligence on the car before purchase. THis creates an adversarial relationship with the dealer, and the salesman resents the buyer for being a pain. In actuality, the dealer is not doing THEIR job, and its their fault int he first place.

Ill give you a perfect example. Last year I was looking at a used Audi wagon at a northern NJ dealer. The used car salesperson asked if I wanted help. I told him I was interested and could he tell me about the car. It had been sitting there for a while btw.

He did not know what options the car had (no sticker on the window and no records), no carfax, no repair history, in fact he had NO INFO AT ALL except the price. THe price was $30,000. Does anyone honestly think that a potential buyer would have a good feeling about this dealership? THis is a fight waiting to happen. The delareship new car sales side is excellent; but their used cars salepeople were amateurs. The ironic thing is that I later found out that they had serviced the car the whole time.

So for you sales people who think Im too fussy - your darn right I am. If you would do YOUR job, and have the info available in a folder ready for a buyer to see up front, you might find that treating buyers intelligently would make sales a lot easier. Im in sales and I would never sell a buyer this way. Respect is earned.

rroyce10

...... Great post ...!

              Terry.

isellhondas

The most honest and knowledgable salesperson can still have no idea if a car has ever been in "an accident". A quality shop can restore a car to like new condition.

Of course, major work is always detectable and the minor stuff really doesn't affect the car much.

As far as service records go, except for warranty work, in most cases, there is no "central database" in which to check. People who trade in cars will usually very careful they remove any and all paperwork that has their name on it. People are so scared nowdays that someone will find out who they are.

Every store is different. We run Car Fax reports on all of our cars. We have a folder with the Car Fax and our detailed inspection report available to show the customers. Everything we know is shared with the buyer. We even require them to sign the inspection report when they buy the car.

Still, some people are cynical. They look for reasons NOT to buy the car. They will pick at every timy rock chip. They will ask me..."Why did the previous owner trade it in after only two years"?..."I don't know...a lot of people do that"

I stand by my statement that some people simply should buy new and not used cars.

lizzi001

I'm planning on buying a 1998 or 1999 Honda Civic. My first thought is to buy a "certified use Honda" from a dealership, but I wonder if people think they're worth the extra grand or so. Also, if I do check out some certified cars, do I still have to take them to my own mechanic to get them check out? If so, what's the point of them being certified. This will be the first car I've owned in like 10 years, so I don't even know any mechanics. Thanks for your input!

rivertown

Worth the extra price? I wouldn't buy a used car from a dealer, period; so, on principle alone, I'd say "no". But,
the extra bucks are buying you an extended warranty; so, at least you're getting something.

Finding a mechanic is a pain, but you need one if you're gonna buy any used car. This link may help: http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Garage/intro.html

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi lizzi001. I personally feel as though the certification of used vehicles really isn't worth a whole lot, other than the extended warranty that it provides. One can always purchase an official Honda extended warranty on their own. Doing so on a nice, clean used Honda is probably a better way to purchase a used Civic. The problem is that many Honda dealers sell their best used vehicles through the Certified Used vehicle program. It would probably be to your advantage, price-wise, to find a used Civic that is in good condition that is being sold privately or through a dealership that has not certified it. There certainly is nothing wrong with Certified Used Vehicles, but I personally don't think that they are the worth the premium that they command, especially when many dealers do not perform nearly as careful an inspection on CPO vehicles as the programs claim has been done.

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isellhondas

Speaking from OUR store...we certainly DO whatever it takes to bring our certified used cars up to Honda's requirements.

It depends on a buyer's perspective if it's worth the extra dollars to buy a certified car.

We don't certify all of our cars that qualify because there are always the buyers who only care about the price they pay. They will tell me..." I've had four Hondas and none of them ever gave me a bit it trouble...why should I pay more for a certified car?"

Then there are those who worry about having problems and repair bills. These are the folks who should buy the certified cars.

We do a lot of extra work on certified cars. We throw away perfectly good brake pads, batteries and tires simply because they are worn beyond a certain point.

But, that's a good thing for the people who buy these cars.

Because of this ridgid inspection process, I think it would be a waste of money to pay to have the car re-inspected by a different shop.

Buying from a private party is a different story. By all means, pay for an inspection.

Some think they will save huge amounts of money by buying from a private party. This usually isn't the case. Private parties, I've found, will ask for top dollar in most cases.

There will be little recourse if something go's wrong.

It's all a matter of how much risk a person is willing to take.

jasmith52

This thread talks all about the certified issue for Hondas.

tydenmal "Just bought used certified Honda. I'm already having problems Please..." Mar 26, 2003 10:10am

This thread concerns a woman who bought a certified used Honda and (in my opinion) had unreasonable expectations for the car.

jasmith52

Isellhondas:

I respectfully disagree with you on the price that you can get a private party car for. There are always the sellers who are in fantasy land about what their cars are worth. These sellers will almost certainly not sell their car for their price, so their car will just sit and depreciate. I don't try to argue with these sellers and just leave them to complain to their friends about how hard it is for them to sell their car.

If you are not too picky about the exact color or equipment that you want their are great deals to be had buying cars from private parties. The best deals that I have made is from someone who has already bought a new car and has been trying unsuccessfully to sell their old (but still decent) used car for a couple of months. At this stage they are prepared mentally to sell the car at a lower price to be done with the deal.

I have made many of these sort of deals. They really are not all that hard to find.

As far as price, you can generally buy a private party used car for less than wholesale book. So by buying smart from a private party maybe you can save a couple of thousand dollars.

isellhondas

Depends on what it is and how badly the person wants to sell it.

Often they will start too high, get no calls and then lower the price.

No different with real estate.

5speeder

I also disagree about not saving significant amounts of money when buying privately. I've bought (and sold/traded in) both ways. It's true that if the private sale car goes bad you have less of a chance of getting redress than you do with a dealer, but that's one reason why I am more likely to pay for a mechanic inspection of a private party car than I am for one I'm buying from a mainstream dealer. I figure with the money I save I could pay someone else to fix it and still be ahead. (haven't needed to yet!)

It's easy to see the potential savings by looking up the TMV of any used car on this site. Savings for the cars I'm most recently looking at(late model imports ~$15k) for are ~10% - 15%, or in my case, $1500 - $2250! Maybe not a "huge amount", but definitely not peanuts to me!

CarMan@Edmunds

Isellhondas, despite the fact that Honda has one specific set of guidelines about what should be inspected and repaired on its Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles, some stores are definitely more diligent in their inspection of these vehicles than others are. It is great to see that you work at a good store that does very careful inspections of CPO vehicles. However, there are many stores out there, that definitely do not inspect CPO vehicles as closely as their manufacturers' standards dictate. I know the managers of many stores where this is the case. That is why I personally don't think that the certification is worth the extra money. If one was positive that they were getting a vehicle that is perfect then CPO models might be worth the premium that they command, but when individual dealerships are independently owned and operated there is no way to guarantee that is the case.

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audia8q

brings up some good points. Essentially the value of the certification process is found at a quality dealership. IsellH's dealersship is a good example. They have an internal process that they follow and they make the most out of the certification program. In my opinion, this type of dealership can justify a higher selling price and it's worth it to the consumer......OTOH, a dealership that washes the car and say's its certified is not adding any value to the certification process and is not justified in a higher selling price....

The key to a great certified car is finding a quality dealership with a good local reputation.

isellhondas

I don't doubt that different stores have different levels of diligence when they certify cars.

Some, do doubt do a better job than others do.

Even so, a certified car does come with the extended warranty which should cover the overlooked items.

No excuse for doing a slipshod job.

fezo

No excuse indeed.

That said, had a friend that bought a certified Corolla several years back and teh only useful thing the dealership did was honor that warranty. They obviously had not gone over the car for problems and I was just stunned at the number of little niggly things that kept turning up. And this was on a two year old Carolla for Pete's sake!

Anyway, we're now maybe 8 years down the road, after a few months the crazy problems faded and the car is still tooling along.

rroyce10

..... It's a wonderful marketing tool by the manufacturers, for the dealers and both win out ..

           Most dealers -except- Isell's, drive the BMW, Cavalier, Lincoln, Protege', etc, around the block and if they find any blatant problems they fix them .. but most of the time, it's a quick tire rotation, oil change and a filter, then it's off to the detail dept, then the front line .. is it worth the Xtra $900/$1,500/$3,000 ...? Nope ..!

            Remember, depending on the vehicle, the dealer makes an extra 25/30% when you purchase the vehicle with the warranty ... you can have the vehicle inspected for some short dollars someplace else and find a great warranty online via Edmunds, or whoever you feel comfortable with .. but you gotta admit, it sure "sounds" nice .l.o.l.. marketing my friend, marketing.!

                      Terry.

isellhondas

Somehow I don't think the place where I work is the ***only*** store that tries to do a good job with our certified cars.

I watch perfectly good brake pads get thrown in the trash because they don't have quite 50% of the pad material remaining. I know they would last me another 30,000 miles.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about a non-certified used Honda in good condition. I know how they hold up.

Still, for others they afford peace of mind.

jasmith52

Out here in California it is state law that any car sold by a dealer have at least 50 percent life left in the brake pads. It's a safety thing.

Brake pads aside, I'm sure that your dealership does a good job going over the certified cars.

In terms of certification, I look at is as an insurance policy that I don't really want to pay for. So for me if I can find a good car I'll forego the insurance that I can cover myself. Others may feel better having the insurance.

I have noticed that for some makes of cars it is optional as to whether or not you actually purchase the certification policy.

isellhondas

Everyone has their own comfort level.

jasmith...I'm not sure your info is correct about the 50% brake pad replacements in California. I lived there most of my life and I never heard that before.

I'm a stickler for safety and I don't push it with brakes and tires. Still, to me, it's like having a half tank of gas, pulling into a gas station and pouring the half tank into the sewer system before filling up.

afk_x

There is a required safety inspection but it doesn't state the brakes have to have 50% of their pad life left

Then again, I've been wrong before...

prophet2

It cost me $680 last year, which added one additional year and 12K miles to the remaining factory warranty. '01 Integra with 12K miles on the clock and in service one year. Three years and 38K miles remaining + the extra coverage = four years, 50K miles, just like the new car warranty. F&I pushed an extended warranty for another two years and 38K miles (I declined). But, it was in top operating order as far as brakes, tires, etc. were concerned. Even the water spots in the paint were buffed out.

In my case, a waste of money as my daughter crashed it four months later for a total loss.

mr5by5

My daughter is shopping for a used VW and got a pitch from VW dealer for their "Certified Used Car Program". I have read some of the material on Edmunds website on Manufacturer Certified Used Cars and there are a few archived discussions that are no longer active - I wondered if anybody that has purchased a car through one of these programs has any advice to the rest of us on this?

I had a look at the VW "112-point Inspection"
checklist on the VW Website. They provide no details on how they check things,
there are many duplicates (no car has both a manual
and automatic transmission! "Engine" and "Brakes"
appear 3 times!), and most of the stuff is either
covered by our NY State Safety Inspection or easily done by the buyer.

I know I am super-critical of these things but
all-in-all I came-up with 13 actual items in the list
that would be more-or-less useful depending on how
they are done. You've gotta wonder how legitimate this
Inspection actually is! (There is an archived thread related to someone who bought a VW Certified car and had the brakes fail within hours - some inspection!) I checked Edmunds pricing on a hypothetical '99 Jetta for
"VW Certified" vs. non-VW
used and the difference was about 10% - on a $10,000 car that is real money! I wonder why the folks that were advising us not to buy extended warrantees on used cars now seem so enthused by these Manufacturer Certification programs? Seems like this is just an extended warrantee with a different name...

Following is my mark-up of the VW 112-point Cert. checklist, numbered items
are legitimate checks that have clear potential value to the buyer
- everything else is either covered by NYSI, easy to
check yourself, or duplication:

Doors & Handles - Self-check
Window Operation - Self-check
Side and Back Windows - Self-check
Windshield - NYSI
Seat Belts/Retractors - - Self-check
Air Bags - How checked? Idiot Light Only?
Mirrors In/Out - - Self-check
Clock - - Self-check
Instrument Lights - - Self-check
Sunroof - - Self-check
Lighter - - Self-check
Dome/Map/Visor Lights - - Self-check
Door Locks - - Self-check
Upholstery - - Self-check
Carpet / Floor Mats - - Self-check
Headliner - - Self-check
Ignition Switch - - Self-check
ATF Fluid - - Self-check
1.) Engine * - How Checked? Comp. Dx Report Print-out?
(Engine appears on list at least three times!)
2.) Automatic Trans. (Incl. Shift-Lock) - How Checked?
Comp. Dx Report Print-out?
Manual Transmission* - One or the other, not both!
3.) Differential - How cheked? Just Fluid Level?
Clutch - Not with A/T
Steering - NYSI
4.) Steering Wheel Aligned - What about steering
linkage alignment??
5.) Suspension - How Checked? NYSI
Brakes and ABS - Brakes NYSI, ABS Idiot Light Only?
Parking Brake - NYSI
A/C System - Self-Check
Heater - Self-Check
Speedometer - Self-Check
Horns - NYSI
Radio/Antenna* - Self-Check (Antenna Mast repeated
below)
Cassette/CD - Self-Check
Speakers - Self-check
Wipers/Washers - NYSI
Wiper Blades and Arms - NYSI
Cruise Control - Self-check
Wind Noise/Squeaks/Rattles/Wheel Bearing or Exhaust
Noise - Self-check
Engine* = Repeat
6.) Odometer - How Checked?
7.) Cooling System - How Checked? Pressure Test?
8.) Coolant - Self-check for level, Need Hygrometer
Check for Freeze Protection
9.) Battery/Charging System - How Checked? Battery
Load Test? Comp. Dx Print-out?
Battery Cables/Clamps* - Part of Battery/Charging
System Check above.
10.) Ignition Wires - How checked? Comp. Dx Print-out?
V-belts* - Part of Cooling System , A/C, and Power
Steering checks (any serpentine belts?)
A/C Compressor / Clutch* - Part of A/C Check above
Cooling Fan* - Part of Coling System check below
Washer Reservoir* - Part of Wiper/Washer check above
Engine Oil - Self-check
11.) Power Steering - How checked?
Brake Reservoir* - Part of Brakes check
Turn Signal /Marker Lamps - NYSI
Emeregncy Flashers - NYSI
Antenna Mast* - Repeat of Radio/Antenna above
Headlights - NYSI
Fog Lights - NYSI
Tail Lights - NYSI
High-Mount Brake Light - NYSI
Trunk/Rear Hatch - Self-check
Spare Tire / Jack/ Tools - Self-check
Wheels - NYSI
TIres = Tread Depth (4/32) - NYSI
Wheel Covers - Self-check
Transmission* - Repeat, both Automatic and Manual
checked above
C/V Joint Boots
Axles / Suspension - Repeat, Suspension checked above
and NYSI
Engine* - Repeat #3!
Shocks/Struts - NYSI
Brake System* - NYSI (Repeat #3!)
Brake Pad Lining - NYSI
Exhaust - NYSI
12.) Steering Rack/Pump
Hoses - Self-check
Hydraulic Pump - ?
13.) Underbody - How Checked?

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi mr5by5. From the direction that your post was headed it looks as though you have come to the same conclusion about Certified Pre-Owned vehicles that I have, they aren't really worth much extra money. In your message you picked apart one particular manufacturer's list of inspected items, well it may trouble you even more to find out that many dealers don't even bother to check many of the items that appear on this list at all, despite the fact that they are required to. Instead they give used vehicles a quick inspection, fix a few obvious problems, and slap a certified sticker on it. The only real benefit that CPO programs provide consumers is their extended warranties. This isn't even that big a deal when one considers the fact that they can purchase an extended warranty for their used vehicle all on their own if they want to. I would try to purchase a nice non-certified used Volkswagen if I was in your situation. The only problem that you may run into is that many dealerships certify their best used vehicles, so you need to find a dealer who does not certify some of its inventory or purchase one from a private party. Good luck.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

mr5by5

It is good to know that someone shares my forming opinion about Certified Used Car programs.

I noted one comment in an archived discussion to the effect that: "If you had a choice on the same lot between a "Certified" used vehicle and the same model that was un-certified wouldn't you be suspicious of the reason why the un-certified car did not make the grade?" The logic there is fine until you start to think about that checklist! Not only is the content questionable but the possibility that units are not really checked-out throws a monkey-wrench in the whole process!

In fact, I am beginning to think the actual best bet of all is the same approach I have used for years in buying used cars: Buy an older car with low miles from a private owner who loved it and treated it like gold! New car dealers in general (and Certificatiion Programs in particular) won't touch cars that are over 6-8 years old, used car-only dealers are notoriously un-trustworthy. The catch here is finding the right car (since most people who love their cars love to drive them!) - it takes time and patience! Meanwhile you can keep saving towards the purchase price so that you can afford to pay a premium price for a premium unit...

I have just gotta look at the 150-point Cert. checklist Honda uses for their program - like a friend said this AM, they must get a point for every lug-nut!!

Thanks, again!