After buying 4 new GM products in 15 years, I'm with you on the boycott. If GM liquidates, or should I say "when", I'd look to pick up a Vette for about $30K, seeing they're discounted to about $41K right now; and there wouldn't be a warranty after liquidation.
I can accept GM's incompetence over the years in product selection and making poor contracts that tied their hands. I can't accept the 1) arrogance they initially showed when asking for the loans, 2) the general lack of accepting responsibility, and 3) the general malaise of not trying to solve this problem internally, and begging to people who are struggling (the typical taxpayer) to bail their higher paid ars___ out.
Its really their lack of moral, ethical, and personal qualities that disgusts me!! ; much more so then their stupid business decisions.
Lemko, have you test driven Honda and Toyota vehicles? I actually even know some union guys who swore they'd never drive a "[non-permissible content removed]" car. After their domestics kept being plagued with problems they looked at them and now drive Camcords.
Its not just Consumer Reports. JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics, especially long term. That's why the resale is so much better.
I say give the domestics a short period to prove themselves, and I mean prove they have the means and direction to make their product competitive "long term" to the current best producers. If they don't, pull the plug. I think the domestics have a very tough road ahead because they screwed over too many customers. Personally, I'll continue to be leery until I see proof of long term quality and durability. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the domestics have enough time.
The UAW, suppliers, Management, and dealers are like 4 sailors fighting over the ship's safe, while the ship is sinking. They're still fighting each other, instead of spending their short-time trying to figure out how to survive.
It really doesn't make me want to help these guys.
Looks like the bailout will go through. But what good is it if people are getting laid off and purchasing a new car is the last thing on their minds? I hate to see so many people in the auto industry possibly lose their jobs, but with the recession showing no signs of slowing down, the auto industry will have dismal sales for quite some time.
Then add to the fact that many people prefer imports over the big 3 then you really have a big problem that a bailout will probably do little to fix.
A friend of mine had a premature transmission problem on his Odyssey
Must have been one of those few friends who wound up winning a class action against Honda for those transmissions. And a new suit is warming up in the bullpen.
“Fourteen Ford Motor Company models placed in the top three of their respective segments — an achievement unmatched by any other corporation this year (2007)."
> think the domestics have a very tough road ahead because they screwed over too many customers
That is a giant factor. Interestingly the aura on the popular foreign brands has warped the halo some; people who bought certain foreign brand cars are unhappy with the lack of quality which they thought was part of the automatic personality when they purchased the car because they were always perfect. My point is that they do well but not quite as well as the late 90s when certain models earned a reputation.
In contrast the US cars have improved. And I must have been really good at choosing models because I've had many, many GMs that I haven't had more than minimum things to keep up for them to give me excellent service. I find that criticism, indeed just plain whining, about GM cars has been totally acceptable while criticism of foreign models is quelched in various ways on some sites. Sludge may be the prime example. My point isn't the unfairness but the effect of the uneven reporting of problems. It slants people's opinion from inspecting, evaluating, and test driving the cars they might be interested in.
>JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics,
Are you sure they are so supportive now? I think they got burned on Avalon and Camry V6.
>especially long term.
Long term is a big variable in the upkeep a person gives the car. If you treat a GM car to the same 30, 60, 90,000 mile, and up maintenance service at the dealer that people give foreign models, they'll do as well for many models in the lineup.
>domestics have a very tough road ahead because they screwed over too many customers.
I have to tongue in cheek agree about Ford. I said I'd never buy another Ford after a few models gave problems. When the timing gear/chain wore at 70,000 miles on a 351W motor they'd been building for years, I said never again. Traded it the night I picked it up from the ripoff Ford dealer. Amazingly I had to eat my words because several years later I won a Mustang Pace Car. So I kept it a few months, enjoyed, and sold it. But I would never ascribe the negative problems to the current Ford lineup that I had with the Fords I owned decades ago. Why do people do that with all US cars still?
Berri, not saying Ford quality is better or even good, just that they have planned for the future to some degree. They probably could survive for another year.....they haven't been as wasteful as GM and Chrysler. Of the 3, they planned for the future much better so have the best chance of surviving.
"It’s just not something I’d ever want to drive," blurted out House Finance Committee Chair Barney Frank, when Rep. Shelley Moore Capito revealed that her father once owned a Chrysler wagon he nicknamed the "Chick Magnet."
BOYCOTT all of these companies and the US will be a much finer happier place in the years to come!
You'll get no argument from me. Of course, I have this quaint, old-fashioned idea that the free market should determine if a company lives or dies - that you can't have the freedom to succeed without the freedom to fail.
Long term is a big variable in the upkeep a person gives the car. If you treat a GM car to the same 30, 60, 90,000 mile, and up maintenance service at the dealer that people give foreign models, they'll do as well for many models in the lineup.
I don't think this is true. The only really significant problems I see cited from Honda and Toyota in recent models are the Honda transmission issues (and Honda stepped up to the plate) and the Toyota sludge issues. These problems were not in a large number cars relative to D3 issues, and are really only noteworthy because of how reliable especially H and T have been.
The US nameplates started with the Vega, went to V8-6-4, went to Quad 4, went to Windstar transmissions and head gaskets, junk interiors, very low reliability until recently. It's not one story, it is the "preponderance of the evidence". I can have a great US nameplate or a terrible foreign one. But across at statistical set of the whole country, it is clear how the opinions have formed.
I know, anecdotally, that the only new vehicle I've purchased that was built by the UAW (out of 6 new cars) had the worst fit and finish and the most problems upon initial delivery. I got 230K miles out of it, but it did have a Nissan engine and transmission (1994 Mercury Villager).
Of course a passage in Congress is still not guaranteed:
A breakthrough came when negotiators reached a compromise to require the czar to revoke the loans and deny any further federal aid to automakers that don't strike a deal with labor unions, creditors and others to ensure their survival by next spring — essentially pushing them into bankruptcy.
Let's see if there ends up being any teeth in the conditions listed above. Prepare for this to be a long, protracted year for the US auto industry. They are saving the patient for the moment, but making him a drug addict$$ in the process.
I call on all Americans to boycott all bailout companies.
Kind of hard to...that covers 90% of the banks out there, including ING Direct (which owns my brokerage...the Dutch government bailed them out). Not sure if HSBC got a bailout from the US, but I bet they get one from SOMEBODY, since they're basically the HK Fed...and then there's the balances I'm carrying on CCs from Citibank and Chase...
I'm getting tired of the press reporting "Bailout for the Auto industry". It's not a bailout, it's a handout, and it's not the auto industry, it's the failing American automobile companies. Most of the "imports" have been steadily increasing market share, slowly but surely, over the years at the expense of the failing American auto companies.
So let's call this the "Handout to failing American companies".
Love it, just love it. Maybe they'll hit $5 today. :shades: I like Ford's vehicles better anyway, though maybe they can use that line of credit to buy Cadillac. :P
Ford, for example, received incentives from the state of Illinois and Chicago to retool the factory that produces the Taurus, Sable, MKS and Taurus X.
Not that it is relevant to the convo, more of an FYI thing. The Taurus X ceases production in March and the Sable in April. They will both be no more. Ford decided that 5 or 6 months ago.
JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics, especially long term. I can't agree with you. I had acura wile ago and had to replace brake rotors and pads every 30-35K miles, auto trans (2 times), leaked windshield & etc. My mom's concord had 0 issues during all 120K miles. After that she had to replace trans.
Sure I have. Didn't say they were bad or unreliable as transportation modules, but I just can't stand the look of them for one. Japanese styling is just bland on one hand and weird and alien on the other hand.
They do nothing for me when I drive them. It's as engaging as doing the laundry. They do the job and nothing else. They are as soulless and sterile as my washing machine. They strike me as something you "have to get" versus "want to get."
I don't like the image that goes with your typical CamCord. I picture as it's driver the emasculated and cuckholded husband Kevin Spacey played in "American Beauty" before he came to his senses. I'd rather be seen as a geezer, pimp, redneck, whatever before I'm seen as an effete, henpecked wimp who lives in fear of his wife.
I absolutely HATE the dealership experience! The sales personnel are arrogant and assume you're going to buy - that they're doing you a favor selling you a car rather than you doing them one by purchasing it.
I can see through the hype. I seriously considered a Lexus LS430 around the time I bought my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS. I drove the Lexus expecting some kind of epiphany and the car felt absolutely no different from my Buick Park Avenue. After I bought my Seville, a LS430 parked next to my car at work. Seeing the two side by side made me happy I bought the Seville.
I've had over 25 years of excellent GM vehicles. Why mess with such a winning streak by going elsewhere?
Its not just Consumer Reports. JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics, especially long term. That's why the resale is so much better.
If you will look at last years dependabilty study by JD you will find that Ford had as many Segment awards given as Honda and Mercury was second only to Lexus.
I am not talking about the initial quality award that the Fusion won but the dependability awards for over a longer period of time.
I've had over 25 years of excellent GM vehicles. Why mess with such a winning streak by going elsewhere?
Most of us wouldn't dream of suggesting that you go anywhere else. But this forum isn't about the comparative merits of various cars, although you might prefer to talk about that. It's about bailing out Detroit. Should we or shouldn't we? You seem to think that we should, but you've failed to make anything resembling a convincing case.
Chance are that I'll never buy a GM car (although I do like the CTS). Why, then, should I bail out GM? IMO, companies that can't function without taxpayer dollars are "emasculated" & "effete", to use your words.
I'm an old-fashioned free market purist. I think that GM should go through the bankruptcy wringer. Someone else will step in & pick up the potentially profitable profitable pieces. The rest will disappear, as they should. That's how capitalism, which gave us the highest standard of living in history, is supposed to work. Why should I buy into your wimpy, limp-wristed, left-wing un-American socialist bailout ideas?
As far as I can tell, your argument comes down to this: I like Cadillacs & Buicks, so the rest of you should cough up the bread to ensure that these brands don't go away. Oh, and some people might lose their jobs (I think) if you don't let the government spend your money on my favorite company.
buy that truck made by the big three while yet possible. Printing money talk of deflation and cheaper prices yet tod expanded that other post about printing money and inflation.
" #751 of 1448 Re: Gagrice [gagrice] by tired_old_dave Nov 24, 2008 (11:29 am) Replying to: gagrice (Nov 24, 2008 8:47 am)
Sorry I posted again and missed your response. Ford was dropping the Ranger after doing nothing for it (rumors of the F-100 old name coming back) and ford reconsidered from what I was told. A ford service advisor, used to race cheap to rebuild chevies, tried a ranger for a short time and said too small bumped head on headliner. I considered (considering) the FX4 as an alternative to the h3 and jk. And saw that since you've been through a few vehicles that is must work for you to still own one. Knew people who made a killing when gold was first out of the bag decades ago and hit a ceiling. Chatter said gold should hit 600-650 for a bottom but believed the 714 it recently hit was a new bottom. No safe deposit vault - no protection no insurance - guess the reason for a safe at home by those buying metals. Just surprised by the amount of activity at that store. And it is true the old buy/sell, but that is how the broker lives."
Here's a "two fer" link - precious metal and inflation:
I do not favor a bailout because it does not address the main problem. The cars are overpriced because of benefits for retired workers, it is a pyramid scheme much like our own social security system which will fail under it's own weight and lead to much higher taxes. I am saying this as a Teamster, but the truth needs to be exposed. Congress is one of the causes of the problem, not the solution. Let the free market solve it, government (both parties) will only make it MUCH worse.
Not official yet. The House Democrats and White House have come to agreement. the House will vote on it later today. Still not sure if it will get through the Senate.
When a person at GM makes $75.00 an hour and in Tennesee at Honda they get $44.00 it cost Ford,GM and Chrysler $2000.00 extra to make a car. Let them go into Chapter 7 Bankrupcy and reorganise and then they will be able to compete. Also,GM,Ford, and Chrysler need younger engineers born with a computer and space age ideas. Why does Ford have alot of excellent cars in Europe and not here? Why make a GMC truck and duplicated with a Cheverolet?Why are they still making Hummers? I'll never buy American,not after owning bullet proof Integras,RSX-Type S and a Mazda speed . My wifes BMW 5 is a dream and a fun ride. The American car companies have taken the fun out of driving,except for the Corvette and Mustang,but you better own a gas station. I like a 5 or 6spd gives you something to do while driving. All my fun rides are from foreign companies. :shades:
The politicians seem to have doled out sufficient ritual punishment to these CEOs so that asking for a government bailout is not, I think, going to look too desirable to others contemplating this course of action. It's kind of ridiculous that these guys think the government, with it's trillions of debt and hundreds of billions in annual deficits, is going to help these companies figure out how to run a profitable business.
"Thomas Stallkamp, a former executive of Ford and then Chrysler during its financial troubles, told Bloomberg News that in the 1980s, the loan board overseeing Chrysler as it borrowed federal funds to survive tried to veto models such as the minivans."
Here is a letter a fellow Ford Dealer sent the editor of there local paper. He really gets after Sen Shelby from Alabama
Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with idea s stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu t hat beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Fo rd offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automaker s have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the indus try that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill i f GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an eco nomic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country
I think you hit it on the head. These politicians are such slime bags. All they care about is their own betterment and interests. Maybe the transplants lined his wallet too, or maybe he is like Illinois' govenor and expects to be paid for his votes and decisions!
Shelby's first and foremost responsibility is to his constituents. He may be setting the stage for loans to the automakers in his state. I don't see how the Feds can decide which automaker survives and which does not via government handouts or loans.
Even if the worst case scenario put forth sends 3 million people to the unemployment lines. I don't believe for a minute that will happen. That is less than 2% or the work force. We would still have lower unemployment than in the late 70s early 80s.
Here is a letter a fellow Ford Dealer sent the editor of there local paper. He really gets after Sen Shelby from Alabama
That's quite funny that the dealer has that reaction. As they would not have been chastised at all, if GM and Chrysler didn't ask for the hearing! I'm just seeing a scene where frat recruits are bent over holding their ankles, yelling "Thank you sir! Please give me another!". LOL I think the CEO's went there voluntarily.
Seeing the fairly good condition of Ford, I guess they really didn't need to go; and might have been better off making a distinction between themselves and GM and Chrysler.
If GM and Chrysler didn't like the treatment, maybe they should have stayed home and worked this out in "their family" without involving the U.S. government. They could have changed things to become profitable on their own for many years, but now it looks like the assigned auto-czar will chop away as they choose, or put them in BK if they fail by Apr.
Shelby's first and foremost responsibility is to his constituents
I don't know - Shelby's cocky overly aggressive, condescending and snotty attitudes look a lot like that Illinois governor who I've seen on TV a few times. I've gotta think there is more to it than just constituents. I hope I'm wrong, but he seems to be way too nasty for just a political philosophy difference of opinion. Besides, the transplants are indicating concern if GM goes under because it will impact their shared vendors. If transplants have hiccups that impacts Alabama's revenues as well. So I'm having trouble buying the "constituents" argument.
Long term is a big variable in the upkeep a person gives the car. If you treat a GM car to the same 30, 60, 90,000 mile, and up maintenance service at the dealer that people give foreign models, they'll do as well for many models in the lineup.
That statement is just plain bogus! There is no evidence anywhere that suggests foreign cars are better "maintained" than Big 3 Cars. Maintenance being equal, all other things should be equal, but they certainly are not.
The reason people hold the Big 3 accountable for past mistakes and rip offs is because they weren't that long ago. Only a decade and change for me, since the model year was a 1995 released in 1994. But technically, the problems don't REALLY start until after warranty, so that means it was 1998 before I wrote off the Big 3 for life! That's only 1 decade ago. Since then, I've spent 0 dollars fixing or repairing my 0- 4 year old vehicles and the reason is I've had 0 Big 3 vehicles in my fleet since then. The new foreign cars just don't cost anything to run, and part of that might be because they step up to the plate when something goes wrong, even if the warranty is techinically expired.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
that bluster only goes so far. maybe it's his 15 minutes. with all due respect to the posters from alabama, and i know they are good people, here is a bit of charles barkely's view of that state. might run for governor
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
"It would require the Detroit companies to bring their labor costs and work rules in line with those of Japanese-owned automakers. Democrats such as Barney Frank of Massachusetts called that unacceptable, saying the unions bargained for the wages."
Hey Barney, what part of that "bargained for wages" don't you understand is between GM and the UAW. GM and the UAW voluntarily asked for a new partner - the U.S. taxpayer.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
GM sold all these cars, and still lost billions. GM had to sell those cars at employee/red tag prices, and lost money on each one. Honda can sell a fraction of that, and make money. There is no hope for this company.
JD Powers is a joke. Initial Quality is easy. It's when a GM car gets to 5 years old that things start falling apart. I own a Chevy and a Honda. They both had "initial quality", but after a few years you can easily tell which one was built with higher quality parts. My father had one of those fuel efficient Malibus, and I wouldn't have traded my 12 year old Accord for that 5 year old bomb.
GM (and the other two) always say "This year's model is much better than last year's". Problem is, they've been saying this for 10 years, and it hasn't been true yet. How can I be expected to believe it this time? I have plenty of experience as to what kind of cars GM builds, and GM has made an apology for it recently. An apology will not cut it. Give me my money back, then we'll talk. I've started driving Hondas since 91, and they have been nothing short of fantastic. Until Honda sells me a GM type :lemon: I'm going to stick with them. I don't see that happening. If your job depends on GM, you should have had the inclination to get out way before now. I have no sympathy.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu t hat beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
Initial quality is fine until vehicles fall apart. I can't wait to see the hybrid Fusion, but the Cobalt literally has NOTHING going for it other than a completely stripped manual-only XFE model can get better MPG than a Civic.
Did you realize that both GM and Fo rd offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda.
Did you realize that right now Ford sells exactly ONE true hybrid, the Escape. GM sells a ton of so-called "mild hybrids" which for a fraction of Toyota's hybrid premium, allow you to drive around in something labeled "Hybrid." Mileage savings not included.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
Agreed, Ford has had the smartest leadership of all of the Detroit Three. The other two can't seem to make a profit. So they either have to get some hard medicine to teach them to actually make a profit (since apparently their pay isn't in jeopardy like ours if we do rotten jobs) or things continue and they go broke. Personally, I'd rather see GM and Chrysler go BK, now THAT would be a serious wakeup call.
As usual the Democrats want to throw in lots of irrelevant crap to make their friends happy. What has giving pay raises to Federal Judges have to do with this $14 billion bailout?
Why was this so important?
There was still heartburn among Republicans, however, over language that would force the automakers to abide by those states' limits. Democrats insisted on it as a kind of consolation prize for environmentalists, who already were livid at the raid of the fuel-efficiency program.
There are also Democrats not happy with the added earmarks and sleazy politics:
Democratic Sen. Max Baucus of Montana announced he was against the measure because of a provision to bail out transit agencies. The bus and rail systems could be on the hook for billions of dollars in payments because exotic deals they entered into with investors — which have since been declared unlawful tax shelters — have gone sour.
Because D3 do stupid cost cutting as grinding their vendors down or going to qualityless China where the stuff is junk, or worse, fraudulent and deficient.. Those cheap parts come back to haunt and keep me leery of returning to D3 vehicles. Detroit is like Bush unfortunately became, they are arrogant and don't know how to partner.
JD Power does a vehicle dependability survey too, based on 3 years of ownership.
In '08 it was Lexus, followed by Mercury (i.e., Ford). Caddy and Buick were up there too.
That's nice, but that's barely out of warranty. What about at 75K, 100K, 125K miles? The only data we have, Consumer Reports, shows much better data for most Asian vs. D3 models.
Powers used to do 4 and 5 year studies but I don't see any of those now. Apparently they think that most people change cars every three years and that's enough time to convince someone to stay with the brand or move on.
Comments
I can accept GM's incompetence over the years in product selection and making poor contracts that tied their hands. I can't accept the 1) arrogance they initially showed when asking for the loans, 2) the general lack of accepting responsibility, and 3) the general malaise of not trying to solve this problem internally, and begging to people who are struggling (the typical taxpayer) to bail their higher paid ars___ out.
Its really their lack of moral, ethical, and personal qualities that disgusts me!! ; much more so then their stupid business decisions.
Its not just Consumer Reports. JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics, especially long term. That's why the resale is so much better.
I say give the domestics a short period to prove themselves, and I mean prove they have the means and direction to make their product competitive "long term" to the current best producers. If they don't, pull the plug. I think the domestics have a very tough road ahead because they screwed over too many customers. Personally, I'll continue to be leery until I see proof of long term quality and durability. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the domestics have enough time.
It really doesn't make me want to help these guys.
Then add to the fact that many people prefer imports over the big 3 then you really have a big problem that a bailout will probably do little to fix.
Must have been one of those few friends who wound up winning a class action against Honda for those transmissions. And a new suit is warming up in the bullpen.
Honda Odyssey Transmission Issues (posts 708, 814 for examples)
“Fourteen Ford Motor Company models placed in the top three of their respective segments — an achievement unmatched by any other corporation this year (2007)."
J.D Power: Ford Is a Winner (AutoObserver)
2008 results are similar. (Ford, quoting JD Power)
That is a giant factor. Interestingly the aura on the popular foreign brands has warped the halo some; people who bought certain foreign brand cars are unhappy with the lack of quality which they thought was part of the automatic personality when they purchased the car because they were always perfect. My point is that they do well but not quite as well as the late 90s when certain models earned a reputation.
In contrast the US cars have improved. And I must have been really good at choosing models because I've had many, many GMs that I haven't had more than minimum things to keep up for them to give me excellent service. I find that criticism, indeed just plain whining, about GM cars has been totally acceptable while criticism of foreign models is quelched in various ways on some sites. Sludge may be the prime example. My point isn't the unfairness but the effect of the uneven reporting of problems. It slants people's opinion from inspecting, evaluating, and test driving the cars they might be interested in.
>JD Powers and many other independent firms consistently find that Toyota and Honda have better quality than the domestics,
Are you sure they are so supportive now? I think they got burned on Avalon and Camry V6.
>especially long term.
Long term is a big variable in the upkeep a person gives the car. If you treat a GM car to the same 30, 60, 90,000 mile, and up maintenance service at the dealer that people give foreign models, they'll do as well for many models in the lineup.
>domestics have a very tough road ahead because they screwed over too many customers.
I have to tongue in cheek agree about Ford. I said I'd never buy another Ford after a few models gave problems. When the timing gear/chain wore at 70,000 miles on a 351W motor they'd been building for years, I said never again. Traded it the night I picked it up from the ripoff Ford dealer. Amazingly I had to eat my words because several years later I won a Mustang Pace Car. So I kept it a few months, enjoyed, and sold it. But I would never ascribe the negative problems to the current Ford lineup that I had with the Fords I owned decades ago. Why do people do that with all US cars still?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The ad was placed by GM and they admit the have been making cars of inferior quality and not very exciting designs.
See the article: GM admits in ad its vehicles have lacklustre designs
GM AD
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Berri, not saying Ford quality is better or even good, just that they have planned for the future to some degree. They probably could survive for another year.....they haven't been as wasteful as GM and Chrysler. Of the 3, they planned for the future much better so have the best chance of surviving.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
$200B Anyone?
Regards,
OW
You'll get no argument from me. Of course, I have this quaint, old-fashioned idea that the free market should determine if a company lives or dies - that you can't have the freedom to succeed without the freedom to fail.
I don't think this is true. The only really significant problems I see cited from Honda and Toyota in recent models are the Honda transmission issues (and Honda stepped up to the plate) and the Toyota sludge issues. These problems were not in a large number cars relative to D3 issues, and are really only noteworthy because of how reliable especially H and T have been.
The US nameplates started with the Vega, went to V8-6-4, went to Quad 4, went to Windstar transmissions and head gaskets, junk interiors, very low reliability until recently. It's not one story, it is the "preponderance of the evidence". I can have a great US nameplate or a terrible foreign one. But across at statistical set of the whole country, it is clear how the opinions have formed.
I know, anecdotally, that the only new vehicle I've purchased that was built by the UAW (out of 6 new cars) had the worst fit and finish and the most problems upon initial delivery. I got 230K miles out of it, but it did have a Nissan engine and transmission (1994 Mercury Villager).
A breakthrough came when negotiators reached a compromise to require the czar to revoke the loans and deny any further federal aid to automakers that don't strike a deal with labor unions, creditors and others to ensure their survival by next spring — essentially pushing them into bankruptcy.
Let's see if there ends up being any teeth in the conditions listed above. Prepare for this to be a long, protracted year for the US auto industry. They are saving the patient for the moment, but making him a drug addict$$ in the process.
Kind of hard to...that covers 90% of the banks out there, including ING Direct (which owns my brokerage...the Dutch government bailed them out). Not sure if HSBC got a bailout from the US, but I bet they get one from SOMEBODY, since they're basically the HK Fed...and then there's the balances I'm carrying on CCs from Citibank and Chase...
Probably to stay well clear of the UAW, who wasn't in a negotiating mood when they had money to build new plants.
So let's call this the "Handout to failing American companies".
BTW did you all hear that it is official.
Not that it is relevant to the convo, more of an FYI thing. The Taurus X ceases production in March and the Sable in April. They will both be no more. Ford decided that 5 or 6 months ago.
I can't agree with you. I had acura wile ago and had to replace brake rotors and pads every 30-35K miles, auto trans (2 times), leaked windshield & etc. My mom's concord had 0 issues during all 120K miles. After that she had to replace trans.
They do nothing for me when I drive them. It's as engaging as doing the laundry. They do the job and nothing else. They are as soulless and sterile as my washing machine. They strike me as something you "have to get" versus "want to get."
I don't like the image that goes with your typical CamCord. I picture as it's driver the emasculated and cuckholded husband Kevin Spacey played in "American Beauty" before he came to his senses. I'd rather be seen as a geezer, pimp, redneck, whatever before I'm seen as an effete, henpecked wimp who lives in fear of his wife.
I absolutely HATE the dealership experience! The sales personnel are arrogant and assume you're going to buy - that they're doing you a favor selling you a car rather than you doing them one by purchasing it.
I can see through the hype. I seriously considered a Lexus LS430 around the time I bought my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS. I drove the Lexus expecting some kind of epiphany and the car felt absolutely no different from my Buick Park Avenue. After I bought my Seville, a LS430 parked next to my car at work. Seeing the two side by side made me happy I bought the Seville.
I've had over 25 years of excellent GM vehicles. Why mess with such a winning streak by going elsewhere?
If you will look at last years dependabilty study by JD you will find that Ford had as many Segment awards given as Honda and Mercury was second only to Lexus.
I am not talking about the initial quality award that the Fusion won but the dependability awards for over a longer period of time.
Most of us wouldn't dream of suggesting that you go anywhere else. But this forum isn't about the comparative merits of various cars, although you might prefer to talk about that. It's about bailing out Detroit. Should we or shouldn't we? You seem to think that we should, but you've failed to make anything resembling a convincing case.
Chance are that I'll never buy a GM car (although I do like the CTS). Why, then, should I bail out GM? IMO, companies that can't function without taxpayer dollars are "emasculated" & "effete", to use your words.
I'm an old-fashioned free market purist. I think that GM should go through the bankruptcy wringer. Someone else will step in & pick up the potentially profitable profitable pieces. The rest will disappear, as they should. That's how capitalism, which gave us the highest standard of living in history, is supposed to work. Why should I buy into your wimpy, limp-wristed, left-wing un-American socialist bailout ideas?
As far as I can tell, your argument comes down to this: I like Cadillacs & Buicks, so the rest of you should cough up the bread to ensure that these brands don't go away. Oh, and some people might lose their jobs (I think) if you don't let the government spend your money on my favorite company.
That's not nearly good enough.
" #751 of 1448 Re: Gagrice [gagrice] by tired_old_dave Nov 24, 2008 (11:29 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Nov 24, 2008 8:47 am)
Sorry I posted again and missed your response. Ford was dropping the Ranger after doing nothing for it (rumors of the F-100 old name coming back) and ford reconsidered from what I was told. A ford service advisor, used to race cheap to rebuild chevies, tried a ranger for a short time and said too small bumped head on headliner. I considered (considering) the FX4 as an alternative to the h3 and jk. And saw that since you've been through a few vehicles that is must work for you to still own one.
Knew people who made a killing when gold was first out of the bag decades ago and hit a ceiling. Chatter said gold should hit 600-650 for a bottom but believed the 714 it recently hit was a new bottom. No safe deposit vault - no protection no insurance - guess the reason for a safe at home by those buying metals. Just surprised by the amount of activity at that store. And it is true the old buy/sell, but that is how the broker lives."
Here's a "two fer" link - precious metal and inflation:
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Ruff/ruff_nov082008.html
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/10/news/companies/auto_bailout_legislation/index.ht- m
Let them go into Chapter 7 Bankrupcy and reorganise and then they will be able to compete.
Also,GM,Ford, and Chrysler need younger engineers born with a computer and space age ideas.
Why does Ford have alot of excellent cars in Europe and not here? Why make a GMC truck and duplicated with a Cheverolet?Why are they still making Hummers?
I'll never buy American,not after owning bullet proof Integras,RSX-Type S and a Mazda speed . My wifes BMW 5 is a dream and a fun ride.
The American car companies have taken the fun out of driving,except for the Corvette and Mustang,but you better own a gas station. I like a 5 or 6spd gives you something to do while driving. All my fun rides are from foreign companies. :shades:
U r right...
The Grand Prix, the Aztec, Saturn SC2, the fender gaps in the Alero......U need to have an artists mind to appreciate those beauties.
"Thomas Stallkamp, a former executive of Ford and then Chrysler during its financial troubles, told Bloomberg News that in the 1980s, the loan board overseeing Chrysler as it borrowed federal funds to survive tried to veto models such as the minivans."
Chrysler Almost Didn't Introduce Minivans Under Federal Loan Board (AutoObserver)
Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with idea s stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu t hat beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Fo rd offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automaker s have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the indus try that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill i f GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an eco nomic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Jim Jackson
Elkins
Lemko, that's funny and maybe even a bit true. Keep your sense of humor - we need more of this in the world!
I think you hit it on the head. These politicians are such slime bags. All they care about is their own betterment and interests. Maybe the transplants lined his wallet too, or maybe he is like Illinois' govenor and expects to be paid for his votes and decisions!
Even if the worst case scenario put forth sends 3 million people to the unemployment lines. I don't believe for a minute that will happen. That is less than 2% or the work force. We would still have lower unemployment than in the late 70s early 80s.
From 1870 to 1930 the second largest purchase that Americans made was a piano.
We lost that industry to overseas production and America still thrived and prospered.
Economic assets must be reallocated to the best managers of those assets in the market place.
Capitalism punishes failure.
Socialism rewards failure.
The endgame of Socialism has been bankruptcy.
Is this the road we want to travel on?
Prosperity comes from:
1. Hard Work
2. Thrift
3. Entrepreneurship
4. A legal system to enforce property rights and contracts.
That's quite funny that the dealer has that reaction. As they would not have been chastised at all, if GM and Chrysler didn't ask for the hearing! I'm just seeing a scene where frat recruits are bent over holding their ankles, yelling "Thank you sir! Please give me another!". LOL I think the CEO's went there voluntarily.
Seeing the fairly good condition of Ford, I guess they really didn't need to go; and might have been better off making a distinction between themselves and GM and Chrysler.
If GM and Chrysler didn't like the treatment, maybe they should have stayed home and worked this out in "their family" without involving the U.S. government. They could have changed things to become profitable on their own for many years, but now it looks like the assigned auto-czar will chop away as they choose, or put them in BK if they fail by Apr.
I don't know - Shelby's cocky overly aggressive, condescending and snotty attitudes look a lot like that Illinois governor who I've seen on TV a few times. I've gotta think there is more to it than just constituents. I hope I'm wrong, but he seems to be way too nasty for just a political philosophy difference of opinion. Besides, the transplants are indicating concern if GM goes under because it will impact their shared vendors. If transplants have hiccups that impacts Alabama's revenues as well. So I'm having trouble buying the "constituents" argument.
That statement is just plain bogus! There is no evidence anywhere that suggests foreign cars are better "maintained" than Big 3 Cars. Maintenance being equal, all other things should be equal, but they certainly are not.
The reason people hold the Big 3 accountable for past mistakes and rip offs is because they weren't that long ago. Only a decade and change for me, since the model year was a 1995 released in 1994. But technically, the problems don't REALLY start until after warranty, so that means it was 1998 before I wrote off the Big 3 for life! That's only 1 decade ago. Since then, I've spent 0 dollars fixing or repairing my 0- 4 year old vehicles and the reason is I've had 0 Big 3 vehicles in my fleet since then. The new foreign cars just don't cost anything to run, and part of that might be because they step up to the plate when something goes wrong, even if the warranty is techinically expired.
with all due respect to the posters from alabama, and i know they are good people,
here is a bit of charles barkely's view of that state.
might run for governor
"It would require the Detroit companies to bring their labor costs and work rules in line with those of Japanese-owned automakers. Democrats such as Barney Frank of Massachusetts called that unacceptable, saying the unions bargained for the wages."
Hey Barney, what part of that "bargained for wages" don't you understand is between GM and the UAW. GM and the UAW voluntarily asked for a new partner - the U.S. taxpayer.
GM sold all these cars, and still lost billions. GM had to sell those cars at employee/red tag prices, and lost money on each one. Honda can sell a fraction of that, and make money. There is no hope for this company.
JD Powers is a joke. Initial Quality is easy. It's when a GM car gets to 5 years old that things start falling apart. I own a Chevy and a Honda. They both had "initial quality", but after a few years you can easily tell which one was built with higher quality parts. My father had one of those fuel efficient Malibus, and I wouldn't have traded my 12 year old Accord for that 5 year old bomb.
GM (and the other two) always say "This year's model is much better than last year's". Problem is, they've been saying this for 10 years, and it hasn't been true yet. How can I be expected to believe it this time? I have plenty of experience as to what kind of cars GM builds, and GM has made an apology for it recently. An apology will not cut it. Give me my money back, then we'll talk. I've started driving Hondas since 91, and they have been nothing short of fantastic. Until Honda sells me a GM type :lemon: I'm going to stick with them. I don't see that happening. If your job depends on GM, you should have had the inclination to get out way before now. I have no sympathy.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu t hat beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
Initial quality is fine until vehicles fall apart. I can't wait to see the hybrid Fusion, but the Cobalt literally has NOTHING going for it other than a completely stripped manual-only XFE model can get better MPG than a Civic.
Did you realize that both GM and Fo rd offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda.
Did you realize that right now Ford sells exactly ONE true hybrid, the Escape. GM sells a ton of so-called "mild hybrids" which for a fraction of Toyota's hybrid premium, allow you to drive around in something labeled "Hybrid." Mileage savings not included.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
Agreed, Ford has had the smartest leadership of all of the Detroit Three. The other two can't seem to make a profit. So they either have to get some hard medicine to teach them to actually make a profit (since apparently their pay isn't in jeopardy like ours if we do rotten jobs) or things continue and they go broke. Personally, I'd rather see GM and Chrysler go BK, now THAT would be a serious wakeup call.
1. Hard Work
2. Thrift
3. Entrepreneurship
4. A legal system to enforce property rights and contracts.
You forgot #5 - Lobbyists in low places.
Why was this so important?
There was still heartburn among Republicans, however, over language that would force the automakers to abide by those states' limits. Democrats insisted on it as a kind of consolation prize for environmentalists, who already were livid at the raid of the fuel-efficiency program.
There are also Democrats not happy with the added earmarks and sleazy politics:
Democratic Sen. Max Baucus of Montana announced he was against the measure because of a provision to bail out transit agencies. The bus and rail systems could be on the hook for billions of dollars in payments because exotic deals they entered into with investors — which have since been declared unlawful tax shelters — have gone sour.
Because D3 do stupid cost cutting as grinding their vendors down or going to qualityless China where the stuff is junk, or worse, fraudulent and deficient.. Those cheap parts come back to haunt and keep me leery of returning to D3 vehicles. Detroit is like Bush unfortunately became, they are arrogant and don't know how to partner.
In '08 it was Lexus, followed by Mercury (i.e., Ford). Caddy and Buick were up there too.
J.D. Power and Associates Reports
In '08 it was Lexus, followed by Mercury (i.e., Ford). Caddy and Buick were up there too.
That's nice, but that's barely out of warranty. What about at 75K, 100K, 125K miles? The only data we have, Consumer Reports, shows much better data for most Asian vs. D3 models.
(waits for complaints about CR :P )