I am not against unions per say - Just this union or others that do not want to accept the market forces. Each agreed to a contract - It would not matter if the union workers made $125.00 per hour and the company could make a profit selling their product ( cars, whatever ) But when you hold up the American taxpayer for money because you cannot make a profit both parties need to consider changes. If not, you fold, and another company will come along and figure out how to do so with a profit. The Dems seem to support the unions no matter what - it does not seem to matter if its cars or sub par public education. Restructuring the big three will not destroy the country.
I presume you're talking about Ed Wallace. I have the utmost respect for that man, listen to his show when I can, and read his articles every Sunday in the Fort Worth Star Telegram. In fact, I save Wheels for last, as I consider it the most important part of the entire paper!
Thank you - I agree with the c-11 - it will get them back on tract - As I said I have bought GM and Ford for over 30 years with one exception - my wife owns a 2006 Jeep Liberty with the 2.8 turbo diesel - very, very neat SUV - that engine in a Wrangler would be super.
Ford and Chrysler build decent cars for the money. GM is overpriced junk maybe your grandmother has a 3.8 liter buick that is ok but GM cannot build a decent 4 cylinder or small V6 ...how about GM Air Conditioners, head gaskets, and brake problems that go on year after year and decade after decade un resolved. Please let GM go and save Chrysler and Ford we consumers will be better off without GM. Ford and Chrysler will do better withou GM around to stink up the reputation of the remaining 2
isn't the federal government supposed to look out for the best interest of the country as a whole? why haven't they done anything that is not reactionary since when? what is their plan to keep the usa ahead of the global curve? sometimes the politics seems to cloud the focus.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
You are correct and I've been linking his work and his articles for some time to the point I believe some people must think I am a shill? for him. He's a son of an Air Force Colonel pilot - so he said today, a musician, climbed up from car sales, and reads and reads and listens and listens, he is a self made man and believes presumedly that we should take care of ourselves and let government do want they do best -roads and national security. I believe we as a people are interdependent and by extension the whole world.
We are just a few of the many in this world who have respect for Mr. Wallace. We disagree on some things as has been noted today. Sadly, I have never met him and missed a chance last weekend to help his charity with a gift at one of his sponsors.
He's the first thing I read. Just got home from helping the economy and have tomorrow's paper.
Isn't "[non-permissible content removed] for tat" pretty much the definition of American national strategy over at least the past several generations? Isn't giving greedy globalist banks money while refusing to give anything to organizations tied to leftist unions which have made the plutocrats bitter for eons another form of "[non-permissible content removed] for tat"? To think that even a big $30BN+++ bailout would be less than a decade's worth of "aid" to parasites Israel and Pakistan - and I don't see callous politicians whining about that, nor did they whine with any substance against the greatest robbery of a national treasury in history. [non-permissible content removed] for tat...it's all political.
No bailouts for any, indeed - but to draw an arbitrary line for one where far more evil forces are allowed to prosper with public funds isn't very logical, itself. If's not about logic, never has been, never will be. This insane bent towards dog eat dog Misean capitalism (lacking any venues of accountability for economic terrorists) will not produce logic, it will produce a plutocratic oligarchy with a two and a half tiered serfdom society.
The assets of banking executives should be confiscated, by force if need be, to repay their corporate debts. The hiding of assets offshore should be made a severe crime, too. Of course, those who hold such assets are the ones who truly make the rules and direct the US (no matter what silly voters want to believe) - so your idea or mine have zero chance of ever existing.
Dear Employee, Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation’s history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis .As an employee, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support. Troy Clarke President General Motors North America ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Gregory Knox, In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me. You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new “messiah” to wave his magical=2 0wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep “living the dream” The dream is over! The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded “laborers” without paying the price for these atrocities and that still the masses will line up to buy our products Don’t tell me I’m wrong. Don’t accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM’s and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I’ve seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting. Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states: There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not You’re right – it’s not JUST management how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag [non-permissible content removed] so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn’t expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke’s sad plea: over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors. What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. Time to pay for your sins, Detroit. I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of “bailout money”. Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and something else would happen where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up that is how a free market system works it does work if we would let it work But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn’t work – that we need the government to step in and “save us” save us, hell – we’re nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don’t even have a clue that this is what’s really happening but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams yeah – THAT’S important Does it occur to ANYONE that the “competition” has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country? How can that be??? Let’s see Fuel efficient Listening to customers Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like “the enemy” Efficient front and back offices Non union environment Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn’t be telling anyone anything they really don’t already know in their hearts I have six children,=2 0so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into – my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) – I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through. Radical concept, huh Am I there for them in the wings? Of course – but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults I don’t want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people – it’s coming whether we like it or not The newly elected Messiah really doesn’t have a magic wand big enough to “make it all go away” I laughed as I heard Obama “reeling it back in” almost immediately after the vote count was tallied ”we might not do it in a year or in four ” where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for the office Stop trying to put off the inevitable That house in Florida really isn’t worth $750,000 People who jump across a border really don’t deserve free health care benefits That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn’t worth $85,000 a year We really shouldn’t allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn’t be living in that $485,000 home Let the market correct itself people – it will. Yes it will be painful, but it’s gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side o
You are very correct regarding the quality of the Bosendorfer. Steinway ranks next followed by Fazioli of Italy and never buy the upper register shrill of Yamaha.
You would enjoy playing my wife's 7 ft Knabe. It was built in 1907 and is beautiful. Still not up to Steinway or Bosendorfer. Hopefully Yamaha does not contaminate the Bosendorfer reputation.
... but to draw an arbitrary line for one where far more evil forces are allowed to prosper with public funds isn't very logical, itself. If's not about logic, never has been, never will be.
If "never" why do you spend energy and time recanting these examples, since "never" would mean you're just wasting your time - speaking of the problems.
Yes over the years the population of this country has given more and more power and money to the government, and then like children we ask the government to help us. It's pretty sad. It leads to citizens who can't help themselves, and puts so much money into "the system" that it attracts or brings out the worst human qualities. The more we can put people in government who will downsize, taking the money out of the government the better. Maybe then we can get rid of some of the 40K+ lobbyists who live in DC.
If you want to reduce corruption you need to reduce the $ that attracts them. There is definitely political influence bordering on corruption of where and how these bailout moneys are going. Anyway I can influence the reduction of power and money into the political system I do - that includes doling out money to any industry. To say the government should help the B3 is to just to allow them to concentrate more power, and to make this the norm.
But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn’t work – that we need the government to step in and “save us” save us, hell – we’re nationalizing
Excellent points .......hope others will read your post. Two things come to mind, they tried nationalization of the auto industry in Britain and it failed miserably. The unions only demanded more and the quality of the product went down. Once you get on the government gravy train it is really hard to get off.
Second point is, you would think, that with all the economic geniuses who are teaching, or who graduated from University, (maybe Warren Buffet) etc, that someone would come up with a fairly definitive theory of what would be the best course of action at this time. I am inclined to agree that companies that fail should be left to fail, there are usually new companies who can move in and take their place.
Right on! You tell it like it is! If the automakers don't get help, NOBODY should get it! Let all those greedy banks and investment house fall too! They gambled OUR MONEY and lost it! I'd have been better off stuffing my money in a mattress than allowing these greedy scumbags to hold it! :mad:
The same reason you decry my lack of logic :P . Logic isn't relevant to public sector actions nor the spending of public funds. Sadly logic has barely more influence in private sector decisions either. Logic is a very minor part of the human condition. Emotion and ego will always trump it.
I just find it amusing that we are still in the midst of one of the most criminal "bailouts" in the history of the world, and are decades deep into some of the worst foreign aid and intervention policies in human history, and the idea of spending a fraction of it to aid a domestic industry receives far more castigation than decisions a million times more destructive.
The Feds love to print their wallpaper fiat greenbacks...print a few more with serious conditions to aid actual Americans for once. Make the conditions strict and irrevocable. Fail to meet the terms, and you lose it all. Just like mortgaging a house.
Political lobbying should be illegal and made nearly a capital offense.
A deeply centralized government with a dependent mass of braying sheeple citizenry is the ultimate goal of the globalist "capitalists". They've created it in maybe 80% of those in the EU and they seek to create the same in the upcoming NAU. With their thought policing, this time the pendulum won't swing back.
It really proves who controls the legislators, especially those in certain areas who have been bitterly anti-union for ages. This is revenge, nothing more. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, and fight for a flawed ideal of completely unregulated "capitalism", no matter the consequences nor the economic terrorists who control it.
I don't see any of them crying about public sector unions with their far-above-market perks and lack of workplace accountability...what is going to happen when those pensions come due...I smell another bailout. And their compensation won't be affected.
Dave, I meant Drive, not Wheels. Wheels is that Chambers guy. If there has to be a car czar, I would suggest Ed Wallace for that post. He's one of the few who knows what's going on. FWIW, I don't think you're a shill for Ed. Anyone who reads his column will be an instant fan. Go Ed Wallace!
One man's trash is another man's treasure. As far as I'm concerned, my old Caddy and Buick are worth their weight in 24K gold and flawless diamonds.
Lem, I have had Fords, GMs and Chryslers for most of my life. No real problems, some like my 1988 Corsica fell apart after about 60,000 miles, but I was quite satisfied.
Then my wife tried out a 1999 Mercedes. We had a loaner that was 10 years old while her car came in. That 10 year old loaner was better than any American car I had owned or rented, including Cadillacs. I would rather have a car like a Jetta that has some engineering, some joy of driving, some feel of the road, basic safety features added at no optional cost - like traction control and multiple airbags - than a Cadillac.
I don't think you have ever driven a Maxima, Infinity, Accura, BMW or Mercedes or you wouldn't think so highly of GM. I have rented new Impalas and Buicks and they are boxes on wheels, with no feel for the road, built by people who want to build a car that can just pass the most basic consumer test, lots of metal and an exterior show of being comparable, but in truth, sadly lacking. Bail outs or loans, it doesn't matter, the cars have to vastly improve before people are going to buy them and trust the D3 again.
I just find it amusing that we are still in the midst of one of the most criminal "bailouts" in the history of the world, and are decades deep into some of the worst foreign aid and intervention policies in human history, and the idea of spending a fraction of it to aid a domestic industry receives far more castigation than decisions a million times more destructive.
The logic is if you don't like the past 99 bad decisions, why do you support bad decision #100? I don't support all 100! Each and every time, I'd say - no. You seem to use the last 99 bad decisions, to then say well I like who's getting #100. You're playing favorites, for some sort of revenge/jealousy reason. And if #101 is for farmer subsidies, and #102 is for oil company subsidies and #103 is for construction company subsidies, I'm against it. I'm not going to pick and choose what waste or giveaways I like. Be against them all.
Then my wife tried out a 1999 Mercedes. We had a loaner that was 10 years old while her car came in. That 10 year old loaner was better than any American car I had owned or rented, including Cadillacs. I would rather have a car like a Jetta that has some engineering, some joy of driving, some feel of the road, basic safety features added at no optional cost - like traction control and multiple airbags - than a Cadillac.
That has pretty much been my experience too. When I had a 2000 Jetta GLS Tdi, I compared it to my grandpa's 2000 Park Ave that cost $15k more. What a joke. The fit-n-finish along with the quality of materials and the tactile feel of the switchgear in the Jetta were worlds ahead of the Park Ave. The only advantage the Park Ave had was it was huge in comparison and it had sofa comfy seats. While VW reliability is often questioned, I didn't have any trouble with mine, and my grandpa's Park Ave was always in the shop with various expensive failures. I'd bet a '00 Jetta TDI has a resale value that's probably double that of a '00 Park Ave now.
It was the same way when I owned an '01 Nissan Pathfinder and a '00 Suburban simultaneously. The Pathfinder shamed the Suburban in terms of materials, fit-n-finish, ride control, powertrain refinement, and the PF felt like a bank fault in terms of overall tightness when compared to the Suburban. I'd drive them on washboard surfaces on a gravel road I often traveled that the Pathfinder could go 50 mph on while driving with one hand, that the Suburban would literally start to self-destruct with the suspension slamming all over the place and the dash literally reverberating to the point parts would fall of at 25 mph. I'd have to drive with both hands to maintain control. It was that bad. One time I actually had the overhead console that enclosed the rear HVAC controls fall from the ceiling while driving down that dirt road. It got to the point if I had to go that way, I'd only take the PF, and when I turned the PF in on lease, I would avoid that road with the Suburban.
Now that was nearly 10 years ago and GMs newer interior designs and refinement seem to be much better.
But that logic isn't reflected in reality. The smug politicos who rant against the excesses of the big 2.5 while their own fortunes are built upon lies and robbery aren't going to suddenly stop aiding bad decisionmakers after they decide to not aid the automakers. This is not the beginning of a trend, this is a simple act of revenge by self-titled capitalists, and it will soon be business as normal in terms of pissing away the dwindling American future to the globalist pseudo-capitalists. The next three who apply for aid are almost certainly going to get it (especially if they have friends in the Fed), the previous who have applied have received it. It makes no difference.
I've had my experiences with VW and never again! An ex girlfriend of mine had a new 1994 Jetta that was constantly breaking. The car ate CV joints for breakfast, was and was plagued with electrical, cooling, and braking gremlins. The service people at VW were as surly as Tony Soprano after he caught his wife cheating on him and somebody ran over his dog.
I did consider a new 1989 Mercedes 560SEL right around the time I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, but the car was $73,600 - more than twice what I paid for my Caddy. It was a good car and the W126 generation seemed like the last really great Mercedes. The 1992 generation S-Class was an overwrought tank currently favored by Russian mafiosi in NE Philly. My brother-in-law has a 2000 S430 that has been plagued by problems ever since he had it. It didn't bode well when I saw it for the first time, opened the passenger door, and the sill plate fell off.
Maxima = cheesy Nissan interior and bizarre styling.
Infinity = Styled by space aliens.
Acura = Honda Deluxe. The RL would've been nice had they put a V-8 in it instead of a puny V-6.
BMW = Absolutely deplore the image that goes with the car and absolutely fear the repair and maintenance costs. They once were somewhat attractive until Bangle ruined them.
You might not think much of my Buicks, but they are extremely reliable, durable, and I can depend on them getting me to work for decades.
Now that was nearly 10 years ago and GMs newer interior designs and refinement seem to be much better.
It hasn't changed very much. I had to drive a 3 year old Suburban a few months ago. I don't think there is any engineering in that vehicle. The seats are comfortable and you have a lot of steel that might help in case of an accident. No feel for the road, thin steering wheel, no logic to the placement of instruments. I couldn't wait to get out of it.
There is a lack of engineering and pride. The attitude is design it and get it on the road the cheapest way possible - with parts from the lowest bidder.
did consider a new 1989 Mercedes 560SEL right around the time I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham,
Too bad you tried the Mercedes in 1989, because the prices dropped dramatically in 1999 beginning with the lower priced C class. I have driven Infinities and Maximas and though they have state of the art engineering, they are too jazzy for my tastes.
If you are comparing a 1994 Jetta to a Cadillac isn't quite fair, you'd have to compare it to a Cavalier or X-car, and they weren't award winners either.
I had a real image problem with a BMW too, that's why we went with a Mercedes in 99. We traded in a my wife's Ford built 1995 Volvo which was the worst car we ever had. I still bought Jeeps and when it was time to trade I thought I would just try an X3 - though I knew it was just to satisfy my curiosity. The image thing was very difficult for me to overcome - I like to think of myself as a regular guy - and basically I am. I got into an X3 for a test drive and I didn't want to get out. I loved my 2 Jeeps, but there was no comparison. I couldn't go back to an American car now. And the image thing, well, it is just an image, I haven't changed one bit......but I do appreciate the engineering and thought that goes into making a fine car.
It hasn't changed very much. I had to drive a 3 year old Suburban a few months ago.
That would been basically the same as my 2000 Suburban, and yes those are trash. The 2007 is much much better.
Reliability aside, I'd much rather have a 2000 Passat over any GM sedan of that year. I can't think of one GM sedan in 2000 that is worth a crap. I know that will make Lemko gag, but I'm sorry, that's how I see it. Reliability to me has very little bearing on how desirable a car is. I'd prefer a bicycle over driving something like a late 80's to early '00 Buick. I've driven enough Park Aves and LeSabre's to know those cars are lousy in many ways.
I have an uncle that still drives a 2000 Passat GLX that he bought new in 2000. He's pushing 200k on it. Sure, it hasn't been smooth sailing as he has had some mechanical failures, but fit-n-finish and build quality shame cars like my wife's 07 Grand Prix, that 10 year old VW is quieter, much more solid than the GP. Not to mention interior quality, no comparison.
Right on both counts explorer. I'll try to recall; 1) Volvo was purchased in 1999 by Ford, I stand corrected. My wife really liked her 2 previous Volvos before buying her 1995 and she didn't like it from the beginning...she said it handled like a big American car. When the lease was up I suppose I heard Ford was buying Volvo and I guess it made an impression on my brain that this lemon of a Volvo was only going to get worse once Ford got their hands on it. 2)Right on the 2nd count too, except for a faulty memory, I am still a regular guy.
Reliability aside, I'd much rather have a 2000 Passat over any GM sedan of that year.
We tend to harp on reliability of the D3, but when you get right down to it, it is as much about quality of the product as reliability. VW is well known to have mediocre to poor reliability, and their cost of repair is high. Yet they retain their value quite well compared with most D3 vehicles. Why is that? IMHO it is because they are beautifully crafted inside, and they drive with precision. They are very desirable (but perhaps not reliable) vehicles.
The D3 vehicles are all over the map on reliability, but how many are highly desirable? Not many.
The D3 should put together some premium vehicles with refinement, quality interiors, and smooth engines that also look good. Charge a few grand more. The customers will notice.
We must be from parallel universes, because I've driven enough Park Avenues, Electras, LeSabres, Specials, LaCrosses, Lucernes, etc. to know Buicks are excellent in just about every way.
Shoot, I'd rather walk than trust anything from VW again. I don't care how nice a VW interior is or how great the ergonomics are if the car is going to be in the shop every other Tuesday or leave me stranded in some god-forsaken place. My ex-girlfriend's Jetta wasn't the only bad one I've seen. A friend and I were riding in his brother's Rabbit when we heard this horrible thud and the left rear of the car suddenly collapsed. The shock absorber broke right through the tower! Another friend bought a new 2000 Jetta. It was plagued with so many electrical and transmission problems, he dumped it at a loss for a 2001 Saturn. Another friend bought a new Scirocco back in the 1980s and it was delivered with mismatched taillamp lenses and the driver's seat collapsed. Don't forget the horrid Dasher which I refer to as the Trasher.
Oh yeah! It's been my lifelong desire to own one of those hot sexy CamCords! Sheesh! Those are the kind of cars your domineering wife makes you buy if you're spineless enough to let her push you around! Oh, the pride of ownership and prestige of a Corolla or Civic! NOT!!! If I had to drive one of those loser cruisers, I'd have to wear a bag over my head out of shame! God forbid I should see my reflection in a store window! I'd probably eat a .357 revolver right at the stoplight!
I don't care how nice a VW interior is or how great the ergonomics are if the car is going to be in the shop every other Tuesday or leave me stranded in some god-forsaken place. My ex-girlfriend's Jetta wasn't the only bad one I've seen.
It's funny how different people come away with completely opposite experiences regarding the vehicles we discuss.
Like I've said I've put lots of miles on my grandpa's cars over the years. I disliked everyone of his Buick's. When he passed in '03, his '00 Park Ave went to my parents. I volunteered to drive that car from Tampa to the Chicago area. The car wreaked of cheapness and questionable build quality. I liked the exterior looks, but the interior was terrible. I loved driving 1200 miles with windshield wipers that would turn on by themselves, the fuel gauge that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. That was the type of car I'd rather ride in than drive, because of numb steering, brakes, and nausea inducing float. But I know my grandpa loved that kind of ride.
As for VW, When I bought my '00 Jetta TDI, my BIL also bought a '00 Jetta GLS, and my uncle bought a '00 Passat GLS. These were all manual trans cars, but only my uncle had any issues, but they were not severe enough for him to dump the car as he still has it.
I only kept my Jetta about a year, but I put 35k miles on it w/o any issues. My BIL kept his Jetta 3 years w/o any trouble and he traded that in on an '03 Passat. He drove than about 3 years and zero problems with it.
I know VW has had issues as I've read about them, but from my experience they are not all bad. Which is similar to your experience with GM. The opposite of mine.
>My ex-girlfriend's Jetta wasn't the only bad one I've seen
A friend had a Jetta, maybe 2001. The windows fell down unexpectedly. The check engine light kept coming on. The closer Cincinnati dealer treated them like crap--didn't want to work on their own brand of car. So he kept taking to the purchase dealer about 15 miles further away in Fairfield. They'd keep the car and get the light off and then return it. Big nuisance. I've never had falling windows and check engine lights erratically on in my GM products.
Two years ago they traded the monster--for the VW Bug that his wife wanted. They had it in for service and there was something that was going to require $780 of cost so he traded it instead... grin :P . His wife had a bug in her younger days so she liked the idea of another one and she doesn't like to drive large cars like their Pacifica..
A friend of mine has the "2001.5" Passat. I rode in it today. It's got around 135,000 miles on it, and still runs well. Looks good on the outside. The only thing I really noticed on the inside is that whatever material the grab handle is made of, on the passenger side door, seems to be delaminating. He did have some problems with it back around 2003, where it wouldn't always start, and would sometimes leave him stranded. It took the dealer a long time to get it right, but in the end it was just some switch.
As for GM cars of 2000, consider me masochistic, but I could actually go for a Park Ave! I like the Bonneville too, although I'm not too crazy about their interiors. The LeSabre doesn't really do much for me, but I could deal with it. I like the Cadillac Seville, but I'd worry about repair costs on the Northstar as it ages (I'd probably be concerned with any luxury car from that era though)
My Dad has a 2003 Regal, which is the same as a 2000. I don't think it's a bad car, but it's just not that stellar, either. The interior is pretty bad, and the fit-and-finish so-so (which is actually a compliment for a W-body of that era...I've seen much worse!). It also has a cramped back seat. I think the Grand Prix sedan from 1997-2003 was really good looking, but just too small inside for my tastes (that swoopy body cut down room more than in the sister divisions' models), and again, the interior bothered me. I like the Olds Intrigue as well, but have reservations about the 3.5 OHC V-6. I think it was a bit more troublesome compared to say, the 3.8.
I guess there's really nothing from that lineup that's lust-worthy, but if you can find a nice, well-maintained one, you might be able to get a lot of life out of it.
It's off topic...did you buy a 1999 MB? Which model and how was it? I am a MB fan, but I have no problem admitting the timeframe from 1996-2006 or so has had many not so stellar models, in fact the majority of which I would never recommend.
Lexus really destroyed MB's pricing ambitions - from the time the LS was a bonafide hit and the 1992 ES was popular, MB had to knock down the margins. The cheapness of the lower line models of the 1994+ C-class were the first hint.
Today there is little difference in price between sticker on a 2009 S550 and the original sticker on a 1992 500SEL. I doubt this is what the MB braintrust wanted.
Oh yeah! It's been my lifelong desire to own one of those hot sexy CamCords! Sheesh! Those are the kind of cars your domineering wife makes you buy if you're spineless enough to let her push you around! Oh, the pride of ownership and prestige of a Corolla or Civic! NOT!!! If I had to drive one of those loser cruisers, I'd have to wear a bag over my head out of shame! God forbid I should see my reflection in a store window! I'd probably eat a .357 revolver right at the stoplight!
I happen to have an 03 Accord V6. I would like to know what GM car you think would have been a better choice (for $25k)? My wife was rear-ended, and the Accord was in the shop for a week. We were given an 06 Impala as a rental. The Impala was three years younger than my Accord, with half as many miles (15k vs 30k), but it felt and rode like it was older. Everything about the Impala was inferior to the Accord, from highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship. It's actually hard for me to put Impala, and craftsmanship, in the same sentence, because they have nothing to do with each other. I could not wait to get my Accord back, so it could remind me what "Quality" is again.
The next three who apply for aid are almost certainly going to get it (especially if they have friends in the Fed), the previous who have applied have received it. It makes no difference.
Well if enough people decide they will "do what's right, instead of dwelling on the past and wanting payback, then the general populace might question what the heck both the Rep & Dem are doing, and vote for candidates in a 3rd party. I agree that there is a great transfer of wealth and power to the wealthy and political establishments in this country. When people realize that we need to stop giving $$$ to the government to further enrich and empower themselves, then maybe we can break this Dem-Rep path that will destroy the greatness of this country.
But as long as some of us keep supporting these government policies because we're getting something, like giving $10 in taxes, and then fighting, and being happy we got $8 back, then we're in trouble.
We do not need the government going into debt further, and we do not need the government managing private sector companies.
Yes today because we have to. We will probably always need good trucks. No tomorrow because society's model is wrong.
Was it early Greek thought that stated cities should be about two hundred and fifity thousand residents. Enough population where specialization could occur but not so large as to become a rat cage. And then interconnect these towns for sharing of culture, products, and gene pool.
What if today we lived on barren land, farmed the arable soil, and lived without wasting our time on personal transportation. How much have we lost individually and as a society by messing with auto's to go here and there.
BMW = Absolutely deplore the image that goes with the car and absolutely fear the repair and maintenance costs.
Can't help you with your image problem, but I can point out that my BMW 330i, bought new in June, 2001, has been largely trouble-free. I had to spend $1200 in early 2006 to replace some suspension pieces, but that was after I hit a pot hole large enough to have its own zip code.
I plan to keep the car until my grandson is old enough to drive it in 2017.
If people would do what is right, this bank bailout would be tossed out. Refusing to aid automakers isn't a move based on logic, it is based on dwelling on the past and the payback you deplore. Stupid moves will continue after this, and the forced enserfment of the west will not be derailed by refusing to aid domestic corporations not connected to plutocrats.
We also don't need supposed private sector companies with loyalties that can hardly be called American looting government coffers in yet another power grab.
It doesn't matter who you vote for. Elected politicos are the tail of the snake. You choose what the head allows.
I am a MB fan, but I have no problem admitting the timeframe from 1996-2006 or so has had many not so stellar models
I'll try to answer as best I can and these are just my impressions We bought a C230 and it was a 4 cylinder kompressor. I liked the turbo boost and it was a very good car...no problems, and solid. We traded it in on a 2003 C240 wagon and although it was smooth and solid, the 6 cylinder engine was anemic. It had a few repairs under warranty as well. We both got 2007 BMW 3 series mainly because of the standard transmissions, and I believe the BMWs, though not as classically beautiful and luxurious, are better engineered and are certainly more engaging to drive.
I would probably agree that Mercedes took some short cuts to make their cars more popularly priced - and 96 to 2006 are a little weak, but better than 90% of the cars out there. If you take a Camry, add the extras that you get with an MB, add a little extra for the feel of luxury and road handling ability and the pleasure of driving, I think it is a great car, because you will get a lot of enjoyment from driving and owning it - and like over 90% of the ones in North America are still on the road. . As far as the Lexus is concerned, I give them a lot of credit and think a lot of their cars. I have driven a Maxima rental car and though it is a great car, it is missing the soul that European cars have for me. It is hard to put into words, but if cars were watches, European cars are like Rolex's or Omegas, Japanes cars are like Seikos, American cars are like Timex...except they don't take a licking and keep on ticking, but you know what I mean
Oh yeah! It's been my lifelong desire to own one of those hot sexy CamCords! Sheesh! Those are the kind of cars your domineering wife makes you buy if you're spineless enough to let her push you around!
Be advised that the Camry & Accord provide very different driving experiences. The Camry is softer sprung & works harder to isolate the driver. In this respect, it's similar to the Buick. (It's not coincidental that the Avalon, which is basically a stretched Camry, is called "the Japanese Buick".)
By contrast, the Accord is a firmer riding & better handling car - much more of a driver's car than the Camry. My favorite version of the Accord is the 4-cylinder model equipped with the 5-speed stick, which is one of the best manuals available today. That's the car you should test drive. (You can drive a stick, I hope. Or does your domineering girl friend force you to buy only slushbox snoozemobiles?)
Thanks for the observations. I am glad your cars were not problematic. The W202 C-class is known to be more solid than earlier W203 cars, but I think the 04-05+ models are ok.
I like BMW performance and seats, but I find them hard to look at. :shades:
It's nice that someone likes the Accord. The topic is Government Loan but I'll follow up to the personal opinion expressed in re the 03 Accord. I test drove one when they were new. It was rough riding. It made noises pulling out and in the dealer driveway at the street where it was twisted. It drove like a car with over-inflated tires; it bounced the wheel and whole car on every pebble and tar strip in the road as well as acted like it couldn't decide which way was the crown of the road with a wandering feeling instead of a definite direction. The seat felt like a school chair.
I kept reading in forums how wonderful the Hondas were. Later people started posting about lead problems in the steering, cracking noises when the car was twisted for which a few were rebought by Honda, brakes that wore quickly or gave problems, seats that were uncomfortable and spartan, as well as the extra large A-pillar blocking the view.
I purchased a leSabre after that because it had interior plastic that wasn't straight from Walmart and had comfortable seats. It has seen the dealer few times for any kind of service and is proving very reliable. It has a firmer ride than earlier Buicks and doesn't beat one to death.
>highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship. It's actually hard for me to put Impala, and craftsmanship, in the same sentence,
I could hard put comfortable car in which to travel and Accord in the same sentence either. However rather than criticizing the other car, I'll just say I arrive in a very comfortable state after 5-hour drive to Nashville or Sevierville. But I realize that some like a ride that bounces every bone. I had a Mustang set up that way in the past. I won't criticize the tuner crowd who may desire a car like that now, but please don't critique the other cars as worthless and useless. It's okay for someone to love their choice of car and someone else to appreciate their own.
My point is that the GM end of things does deserve government action. We wasted money on the bank problem caused by government and lack of oversight by government starting in the 1990s.
Perhaps we need to tax the builders who are not native to the country and have been able to build very cheaply because they don't have the responsibilities the US builders have to retirees and present workers, no matter whom you choose to blame for the builders' problems. The last data I saw on one of the forums showed the US brands sold more than half the cars in this country. That might be in the UAW discussion if someone cares to look for the link.
Canada's side is offering 20% on the Bush's US bailout, if succusful.
Considering Canada has 10% of the USA population Canada's bailout should not be more than 10%, although I disagree on any bailout. It's not fair to any person who lost their earnings in another business because of these troubling times. I do not see why Chrysler should receive any bailout as if is part of the investment company Cerberus and Cerberus has money available from their other investments. Some foreign parts make their way into NA vehicles. On-the-other-hand, BMW's new 6 speed automatic is a GM product. Regarding the Chevolet Volt that will be coming out in a few years, Honda says the timing is too early for this technology and they said they could have product a similar product but it may have big problems, The BIG3 (Americans) might be selling more than Toyota, Honda, etc but the BIG3 have large reliable and service issues. Just look a the readers' black dots in Consumer Reports and Edmunds,com reports.
My vehicle history 2002 Honda Odyssey (current) 1992 Taurus Odyssey 1982 Customized Ford E150 travel 1979 Merury Zephyr 1972 Datsun 510 1967 Plymouth Valiant 1965 Morris 1100 1963 Austin Mini
Oh yeah! It's been my lifelong desire to own one of those hot sexy CamCords! Sheesh!
Lem, it is funny that you have all these images of who drives a CamCord, and BMW.
My impression of a Buick driver is obviously 60+, usually can't see over the steering wheel, drives about 10 to 20 miles below the speed limit, comes to a full stop before entering a highway on an entrance ramp. Probably has tea and melba toast at 2 p.m. Spends most of his day in a bathrobe and slippers.
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch. Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering. Thinks the more metal he can buy for his money the better the value of the car. If he is younger than 60 he bought the car at least one year old as a resale because he'll get it for half price. Probably prefers a bench seat in the front .......lots of room to fit into I mean onto. Or if buckets they will be divided with an armrest, you won't need them contoured for cornering.
Yup, nothing like driving down the highway in your livingroom.
The comparison of "mainstream" cars, was only an illustration of how Detroit has not been building competitive cars. Which is a main reason they are in this predicament. When a buyer is out looking at midsize cars, the Accord and Camry (depending on which type of ride you want) are the best choices out there. A BAILOUT will not change this, and will only delay the inevitable. No amount of money will make Detroit's cars better at this point. It's way too late for that.
A well tuned Knabe of your wife's piano age is a pleasure to play. Instruments made in the early 1900's were of superior quality. Another would be the Mason/Hamlin piano. Fischer comes to mind as another piano to keep.
Can you imagine the quality gap between the craftsmen of pianos then compared to the UAW today???
That was the type of car I'd rather ride in than drive, because of numb steering, brakes, and nausea inducing float. But I know my grandpa loved that kind of ride.
That is why we see so many retired Navy guys driving Buicks and Caddys. It reminds them of life on the ocean. Floating over those big waves. I have to agree, it is better to ride in than drive. I like to feel the road more than is possible in a GM car.
Comments
why haven't they done anything that is not reactionary since when?
what is their plan to keep the usa ahead of the global curve?
sometimes the politics seems to cloud the focus.
We are just a few of the many in this world who have respect for Mr. Wallace. We disagree on some things as has been noted today. Sadly, I have never met him and missed a chance last weekend to help his charity with a gift at one of his sponsors.
He's the first thing I read. Just got home from helping the economy and have tomorrow's paper.
No bailouts for any, indeed - but to draw an arbitrary line for one where far more evil forces are allowed to prosper with public funds isn't very logical, itself. If's not about logic, never has been, never will be. This insane bent towards dog eat dog Misean capitalism (lacking any venues of accountability for economic terrorists) will not produce logic, it will produce a plutocratic oligarchy with a two and a half tiered serfdom society.
The assets of banking executives should be confiscated, by force if need be, to repay their corporate debts. The hiding of assets offshore should be made a severe crime, too. Of course, those who hold such assets are the ones who truly make the rules and direct the US (no matter what silly voters want to believe) - so your idea or mine have zero chance of ever existing.
Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation’s history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis .As an employee, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.
Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.
Troy Clarke
President
General Motors North America
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Gregory Knox,
In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me.
You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new “messiah” to wave his magical=2 0wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep “living the dream”
The dream is over!
The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded “laborers” without paying the price for these atrocities and that still the masses will line up to buy our products
Don’t tell me I’m wrong. Don’t accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM’s and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I’ve seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.
Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states:
There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not
You’re right – it’s not JUST management how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag [non-permissible content removed] so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week
How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn’t expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?
How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke’s sad plea:
over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.
What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?
Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?
The K car vs. the Accord?
The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?
Do I need to go on?
We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades.
Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.
I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of “bailout money”. Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and something else would happen where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up that is how a free market system works it does work if we would let it work
But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn’t work – that we need the government to step in and “save us” save us, hell – we’re nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don’t even have a clue that this is what’s really happening but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams yeah – THAT’S important
Does it occur to ANYONE that the “competition” has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?
How can that be???
Let’s see
Fuel efficient
Listening to customers
Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul
Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago
Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans
Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like “the enemy”
Efficient front and back offices
Non union environment
Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn’t be telling anyone anything they really don’t already know in their hearts
I have six children,=2 0so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into – my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) – I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through.
Radical concept, huh
Am I there for them in the wings? Of course – but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults
I don’t want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.
Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.
Bad news people – it’s coming whether we like it or not
The newly elected Messiah really doesn’t have a magic wand big enough to “make it all go away” I laughed as I heard Obama “reeling it back in” almost immediately after the vote count was tallied ”we might not do it in a year or in four ” where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for the office
Stop trying to put off the inevitable
That house in Florida really isn’t worth $750,000
People who jump across a border really don’t deserve free health care benefits
That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn’t worth $85,000 a year
We really shouldn’t allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe
That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn’t be living in that $485,000 home
Let the market correct itself people – it will. Yes it will be painful, but it’s gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side o
I've played them all and Bosendorfer is Boss.
If "never" why do you spend energy and time recanting these examples, since "never" would mean you're just wasting your time - speaking of the problems.
Yes over the years the population of this country has given more and more power and money to the government, and then like children we ask the government to help us. It's pretty sad. It leads to citizens who can't help themselves, and puts so much money into "the system" that it attracts or brings out the worst human qualities. The more we can put people in government who will downsize, taking the money out of the government the better. Maybe then we can get rid of some of the 40K+ lobbyists who live in DC.
If you want to reduce corruption you need to reduce the $ that attracts them. There is definitely political influence bordering on corruption of where and how these bailout moneys are going. Anyway I can influence the reduction of power and money into the political system I do - that includes doling out money to any industry. To say the government should help the B3 is to just to allow them to concentrate more power, and to make this the norm.
Excellent points .......hope others will read your post. Two things come to mind, they tried nationalization of the auto industry in Britain and it failed miserably. The unions only demanded more and the quality of the product went down. Once you get on the government gravy train it is really hard to get off.
Second point is, you would think, that with all the economic geniuses who are teaching, or who graduated from University, (maybe Warren Buffet) etc, that someone would come up with a fairly definitive theory of what would be the best course of action at this time. I am inclined to agree that companies that fail should be left to fail, there are usually new companies who can move in and take their place.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I just find it amusing that we are still in the midst of one of the most criminal "bailouts" in the history of the world, and are decades deep into some of the worst foreign aid and intervention policies in human history, and the idea of spending a fraction of it to aid a domestic industry receives far more castigation than decisions a million times more destructive.
The Feds love to print their wallpaper fiat greenbacks...print a few more with serious conditions to aid actual Americans for once. Make the conditions strict and irrevocable. Fail to meet the terms, and you lose it all. Just like mortgaging a house.
Political lobbying should be illegal and made nearly a capital offense.
A deeply centralized government with a dependent mass of braying sheeple citizenry is the ultimate goal of the globalist "capitalists". They've created it in maybe 80% of those in the EU and they seek to create the same in the upcoming NAU. With their thought policing, this time the pendulum won't swing back.
I don't see any of them crying about public sector unions with their far-above-market perks and lack of workplace accountability...what is going to happen when those pensions come due...I smell another bailout. And their compensation won't be affected.
Lem, I have had Fords, GMs and Chryslers for most of my life. No real problems, some like my 1988 Corsica fell apart after about 60,000 miles, but I was quite satisfied.
Then my wife tried out a 1999 Mercedes. We had a loaner that was 10 years old while her car came in. That 10 year old loaner was better than any American car I had owned or rented, including Cadillacs. I would rather have a car like a Jetta that has some engineering, some joy of driving, some feel of the road, basic safety features added at no optional cost - like traction control and multiple airbags - than a Cadillac.
I don't think you have ever driven a Maxima, Infinity, Accura, BMW or Mercedes or you wouldn't think so highly of GM. I have rented new Impalas and Buicks and they are boxes on wheels, with no feel for the road, built by people who want to build a car that can just pass the most basic consumer test, lots of metal and an exterior show of being comparable, but in truth, sadly lacking. Bail outs or loans, it doesn't matter, the cars have to vastly improve before people are going to buy them and trust the D3 again.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The logic is if you don't like the past 99 bad decisions, why do you support bad decision #100? I don't support all 100! Each and every time, I'd say - no. You seem to use the last 99 bad decisions, to then say well I like who's getting #100. You're playing favorites, for some sort of revenge/jealousy reason. And if #101 is for farmer subsidies, and #102 is for oil company subsidies and #103 is for construction company subsidies, I'm against it. I'm not going to pick and choose what waste or giveaways I like. Be against them all.
That has pretty much been my experience too. When I had a 2000 Jetta GLS Tdi, I compared it to my grandpa's 2000 Park Ave that cost $15k more. What a joke. The fit-n-finish along with the quality of materials and the tactile feel of the switchgear in the Jetta were worlds ahead of the Park Ave. The only advantage the Park Ave had was it was huge in comparison and it had sofa comfy seats. While VW reliability is often questioned, I didn't have any trouble with mine, and my grandpa's Park Ave was always in the shop with various expensive failures. I'd bet a '00 Jetta TDI has a resale value that's probably double that of a '00 Park Ave now.
It was the same way when I owned an '01 Nissan Pathfinder and a '00 Suburban simultaneously. The Pathfinder shamed the Suburban in terms of materials, fit-n-finish, ride control, powertrain refinement, and the PF felt like a bank fault in terms of overall tightness when compared to the Suburban. I'd drive them on washboard surfaces on a gravel road I often traveled that the Pathfinder could go 50 mph on while driving with one hand, that the Suburban would literally start to self-destruct with the suspension slamming all over the place and the dash literally reverberating to the point parts would fall of at 25 mph. I'd have to drive with both hands to maintain control. It was that bad. One time I actually had the overhead console that enclosed the rear HVAC controls fall from the ceiling while driving down that dirt road. It got to the point if I had to go that way, I'd only take the PF, and when I turned the PF in on lease, I would avoid that road with the Suburban.
Now that was nearly 10 years ago and GMs newer interior designs and refinement seem to be much better.
I did consider a new 1989 Mercedes 560SEL right around the time I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, but the car was $73,600 - more than twice what I paid for my Caddy. It was a good car and the W126 generation seemed like the last really great Mercedes. The 1992 generation S-Class was an overwrought tank currently favored by Russian mafiosi in NE Philly. My brother-in-law has a 2000 S430 that has been plagued by problems ever since he had it. It didn't bode well when I saw it for the first time, opened the passenger door, and the sill plate fell off.
Maxima = cheesy Nissan interior and bizarre styling.
Infinity = Styled by space aliens.
Acura = Honda Deluxe. The RL would've been nice had they put a V-8 in it instead of a puny V-6.
BMW = Absolutely deplore the image that goes with the car and absolutely fear the repair and maintenance costs. They once were somewhat attractive until Bangle ruined them.
You might not think much of my Buicks, but they are extremely reliable, durable, and I can depend on them getting me to work for decades.
It hasn't changed very much. I had to drive a 3 year old Suburban a few months ago. I don't think there is any engineering in that vehicle. The seats are comfortable and you have a lot of steel that might help in case of an accident. No feel for the road, thin steering wheel, no logic to the placement of instruments. I couldn't wait to get out of it.
There is a lack of engineering and pride. The attitude is design it and get it on the road the cheapest way possible - with parts from the lowest bidder.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Too bad you tried the Mercedes in 1989, because the prices dropped dramatically in 1999 beginning with the lower priced C class. I have driven Infinities and Maximas and though they have state of the art engineering, they are too jazzy for my tastes.
If you are comparing a 1994 Jetta to a Cadillac isn't quite fair, you'd have to compare it to a Cavalier or X-car, and they weren't award winners either.
I had a real image problem with a BMW too, that's why we went with a Mercedes in 99. We traded in a my wife's Ford built 1995 Volvo which was the worst car we ever had. I still bought Jeeps and when it was time to trade I thought I would just try an X3 - though I knew it was just to satisfy my curiosity. The image thing was very difficult for me to overcome - I like to think of myself as a regular guy - and basically I am. I got into an X3 for a test drive and I didn't want to get out. I loved my 2 Jeeps, but there was no comparison. I couldn't go back to an American car now. And the image thing, well, it is just an image, I haven't changed one bit......but I do appreciate the engineering and thought that goes into making a fine car.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That would been basically the same as my 2000 Suburban, and yes those are trash. The 2007 is much much better.
Reliability aside, I'd much rather have a 2000 Passat over any GM sedan of that year. I can't think of one GM sedan in 2000 that is worth a crap. I know that will make Lemko gag, but I'm sorry, that's how I see it. Reliability to me has very little bearing on how desirable a car is. I'd prefer a bicycle over driving something like a late 80's to early '00 Buick. I've driven enough Park Aves and LeSabre's to know those cars are lousy in many ways.
I have an uncle that still drives a 2000 Passat GLX that he bought new in 2000. He's pushing 200k on it. Sure, it hasn't been smooth sailing as he has had some mechanical failures, but fit-n-finish and build quality shame cars like my wife's 07 Grand Prix, that 10 year old VW is quieter, much more solid than the GP. Not to mention interior quality, no comparison.
ford didn't buy volvo until 1999.
1) Volvo was purchased in 1999 by Ford, I stand corrected. My wife really liked her 2 previous Volvos before buying her 1995 and she didn't like it from the beginning...she said it handled like a big American car. When the lease was up I suppose I heard Ford was buying Volvo and I guess it made an impression on my brain that this lemon of a Volvo was only going to get worse once Ford got their hands on it.
2)Right on the 2nd count too, except for a faulty memory, I am still a regular guy.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We tend to harp on reliability of the D3, but when you get right down to it, it is as much about quality of the product as reliability. VW is well known to have mediocre to poor reliability, and their cost of repair is high. Yet they retain their value quite well compared with most D3 vehicles. Why is that? IMHO it is because they are beautifully crafted inside, and they drive with precision. They are very desirable (but perhaps not reliable) vehicles.
The D3 vehicles are all over the map on reliability, but how many are highly desirable? Not many.
The D3 should put together some premium vehicles with refinement, quality interiors, and smooth engines that also look good. Charge a few grand more. The customers will notice.
Shoot, I'd rather walk than trust anything from VW again. I don't care how nice a VW interior is or how great the ergonomics are if the car is going to be in the shop every other Tuesday or leave me stranded in some god-forsaken place. My ex-girlfriend's Jetta wasn't the only bad one I've seen. A friend and I were riding in his brother's Rabbit when we heard this horrible thud and the left rear of the car suddenly collapsed. The shock absorber broke right through the tower! Another friend bought a new 2000 Jetta. It was plagued with so many electrical and transmission problems, he dumped it at a loss for a 2001 Saturn. Another friend bought a new Scirocco back in the 1980s and it was delivered with mismatched taillamp lenses and the driver's seat collapsed. Don't forget the horrid Dasher which I refer to as the Trasher.
It's funny how different people come away with completely opposite experiences regarding the vehicles we discuss.
Like I've said I've put lots of miles on my grandpa's cars over the years. I disliked everyone of his Buick's. When he passed in '03, his '00 Park Ave went to my parents. I volunteered to drive that car from Tampa to the Chicago area. The car wreaked of cheapness and questionable build quality. I liked the exterior looks, but the interior was terrible. I loved driving 1200 miles with windshield wipers that would turn on by themselves, the fuel gauge that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. That was the type of car I'd rather ride in than drive, because of numb steering, brakes, and nausea inducing float. But I know my grandpa loved that kind of ride.
As for VW, When I bought my '00 Jetta TDI, my BIL also bought a '00 Jetta GLS, and my uncle bought a '00 Passat GLS. These were all manual trans cars, but only my uncle had any issues, but they were not severe enough for him to dump the car as he still has it.
I only kept my Jetta about a year, but I put 35k miles on it w/o any issues. My BIL kept his Jetta 3 years w/o any trouble and he traded that in on an '03 Passat. He drove than about 3 years and zero problems with it.
I know VW has had issues as I've read about them, but from my experience they are not all bad. Which is similar to your experience with GM. The opposite of mine.
A friend had a Jetta, maybe 2001. The windows fell down unexpectedly. The check engine light kept coming on. The closer Cincinnati dealer treated them like crap--didn't want to work on their own brand of car. So he kept taking to the purchase dealer about 15 miles further away in Fairfield. They'd keep the car and get the light off and then return it. Big nuisance. I've never had falling windows and check engine lights erratically on in my GM products.
Two years ago they traded the monster--for the VW Bug that his wife wanted. They had it in for service and there was something that was going to require $780 of cost so he traded it instead... grin :P . His wife had a bug in her younger days so she liked the idea of another one and she doesn't like to drive large cars like their Pacifica..
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for GM cars of 2000, consider me masochistic, but I could actually go for a Park Ave! I like the Bonneville too, although I'm not too crazy about their interiors. The LeSabre doesn't really do much for me, but I could deal with it. I like the Cadillac Seville, but I'd worry about repair costs on the Northstar as it ages (I'd probably be concerned with any luxury car from that era though)
My Dad has a 2003 Regal, which is the same as a 2000. I don't think it's a bad car, but it's just not that stellar, either. The interior is pretty bad, and the fit-and-finish so-so (which is actually a compliment for a W-body of that era...I've seen much worse!). It also has a cramped back seat. I think the Grand Prix sedan from 1997-2003 was really good looking, but just too small inside for my tastes (that swoopy body cut down room more than in the sister divisions' models), and again, the interior bothered me. I like the Olds Intrigue as well, but have reservations about the 3.5 OHC V-6. I think it was a bit more troublesome compared to say, the 3.8.
I guess there's really nothing from that lineup that's lust-worthy, but if you can find a nice, well-maintained one, you might be able to get a lot of life out of it.
Lexus really destroyed MB's pricing ambitions - from the time the LS was a bonafide hit and the 1992 ES was popular, MB had to knock down the margins. The cheapness of the lower line models of the 1994+ C-class were the first hint.
Today there is little difference in price between sticker on a 2009 S550 and the original sticker on a 1992 500SEL. I doubt this is what the MB braintrust wanted.
I happen to have an 03 Accord V6. I would like to know what GM car you think would have been a better choice (for $25k)? My wife was rear-ended, and the Accord was in the shop for a week. We were given an 06 Impala as a rental. The Impala was three years younger than my Accord, with half as many miles (15k vs 30k), but it felt and rode like it was older. Everything about the Impala was inferior to the Accord, from highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship. It's actually hard for me to put Impala, and craftsmanship, in the same sentence, because they have nothing to do with each other. I could not wait to get my Accord back, so it could remind me what "Quality" is again.
Well if enough people decide they will "do what's right, instead of dwelling on the past and wanting payback, then the general populace might question what the heck both the Rep & Dem are doing, and vote for candidates in a 3rd party. I agree that there is a great transfer of wealth and power to the wealthy and political establishments in this country. When people realize that we need to stop giving $$$ to the government to further enrich and empower themselves, then maybe we can break this Dem-Rep path that will destroy the greatness of this country.
But as long as some of us keep supporting these government policies because we're getting something, like giving $10 in taxes, and then fighting, and being happy we got $8 back, then we're in trouble.
We do not need the government going into debt further, and we do not need the government managing private sector companies.
No tomorrow because society's model is wrong.
Was it early Greek thought that stated cities should be about two hundred and fifity thousand residents. Enough population where specialization could occur but not so large as to become a rat cage. And then interconnect these towns for sharing of culture, products, and gene pool.
What if today we lived on barren land, farmed the arable soil, and lived without wasting our time on personal transportation. How much have we lost individually and as a society by messing with auto's to go here and there.
Can't help you with your image problem, but I can point out that my BMW 330i, bought new in June, 2001, has been largely trouble-free. I had to spend $1200 in early 2006 to replace some suspension pieces, but that was after I hit a pot hole large enough to have its own zip code.
I plan to keep the car until my grandson is old enough to drive it in 2017.
We also don't need supposed private sector companies with loyalties that can hardly be called American looting government coffers in yet another power grab.
It doesn't matter who you vote for. Elected politicos are the tail of the snake. You choose what the head allows.
I'll try to answer as best I can and these are just my impressions We bought a C230 and it was a 4 cylinder kompressor. I liked the turbo boost and it was a very good car...no problems, and solid. We traded it in on a 2003 C240 wagon and although it was smooth and solid, the 6 cylinder engine was anemic. It had a few repairs under warranty as well.
We both got 2007 BMW 3 series mainly because of the standard transmissions, and I believe the BMWs, though not as classically beautiful and luxurious, are better engineered and are certainly more engaging to drive.
I would probably agree that Mercedes took some short cuts to make their cars more popularly priced - and 96 to 2006 are a little weak, but better than 90% of the cars out there. If you take a Camry, add the extras that you get with an MB, add a little extra for the feel of luxury and road handling ability and the pleasure of driving, I think it is a great car, because you will get a lot of enjoyment from driving and owning it - and like over 90% of the ones in North America are still on the road.
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As far as the Lexus is concerned, I give them a lot of credit and think a lot of their cars. I have driven a Maxima rental car and though it is a great car, it is missing the soul that European cars have for me. It is hard to put into words, but if cars were watches, European cars are like Rolex's or Omegas, Japanes cars are like Seikos, American cars are like Timex...except they don't take a licking and keep on ticking, but you know what I mean
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Be advised that the Camry & Accord provide very different driving experiences. The Camry is softer sprung & works harder to isolate the driver. In this respect, it's similar to the Buick. (It's not coincidental that the Avalon, which is basically a stretched Camry, is called "the Japanese Buick".)
By contrast, the Accord is a firmer riding & better handling car - much more of a driver's car than the Camry. My favorite version of the Accord is the 4-cylinder model equipped with the 5-speed stick, which is one of the best manuals available today. That's the car you should test drive. (You can drive a stick, I hope. Or does your domineering girl friend force you to buy only slushbox snoozemobiles?)
I like BMW performance and seats, but I find them hard to look at. :shades:
It's nice that someone likes the Accord. The topic is Government Loan but I'll follow up to the personal opinion expressed in re the 03 Accord. I test drove one when they were new. It was rough riding. It made noises pulling out and in the dealer driveway at the street where it was twisted. It drove like a car with over-inflated tires; it bounced the wheel and whole car on every pebble and tar strip in the road as well as acted like it couldn't decide which way was the crown of the road with a wandering feeling instead of a definite direction. The seat felt like a school chair.
I kept reading in forums how wonderful the Hondas were. Later people started posting about lead problems in the steering, cracking noises when the car was twisted for which a few were rebought by Honda, brakes that wore quickly or gave problems, seats that were uncomfortable and spartan, as well as the extra large A-pillar blocking the view.
I purchased a leSabre after that because it had interior plastic that wasn't straight from Walmart and had comfortable seats. It has seen the dealer few times for any kind of service and is proving very reliable. It has a firmer ride than earlier Buicks and doesn't beat one to death.
>highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship. It's actually hard for me to put Impala, and craftsmanship, in the same sentence,
I could hard put comfortable car in which to travel and Accord in the same sentence either. However rather than criticizing the other car, I'll just say I arrive in a very comfortable state after 5-hour drive to Nashville or Sevierville. But I realize that some like a ride that bounces every bone. I had a Mustang set up that way in the past. I won't criticize the tuner crowd who may desire a car like that now, but please don't critique the other cars as worthless and useless. It's okay for someone to love their choice of car and someone else to appreciate their own.
My point is that the GM end of things does deserve government action. We wasted money on the bank problem caused by government and lack of oversight by government starting in the 1990s.
Perhaps we need to tax the builders who are not native to the country and have been able to build very cheaply because they don't have the responsibilities the US builders have to retirees and present workers, no matter whom you choose to blame for the builders' problems. The last data I saw on one of the forums showed the US brands sold more than half the cars in this country. That might be in the UAW discussion if someone cares to look for the link.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Considering Canada has 10% of the USA population Canada's bailout should not be more than 10%, although I disagree on any bailout. It's not fair to any person who lost their earnings in another business because of these troubling times.
I do not see why Chrysler should receive any bailout as if is part of the investment company Cerberus and Cerberus has money available from their other investments.
Some foreign parts make their way into NA vehicles. On-the-other-hand, BMW's new 6 speed automatic is a GM product.
Regarding the Chevolet Volt that will be coming out in a few years, Honda says the timing is too early for this technology and they said they could have product a similar product but it may have big problems,
The BIG3 (Americans) might be selling more than Toyota, Honda, etc but the BIG3 have large reliable and service issues. Just look a the readers' black dots in Consumer Reports and Edmunds,com reports.
My vehicle history
2002 Honda Odyssey (current)
1992 Taurus Odyssey
1982 Customized Ford E150 travel
1979 Merury Zephyr
1972 Datsun 510
1967 Plymouth Valiant
1965 Morris 1100
1963 Austin Mini
Lem, it is funny that you have all these images of who drives a CamCord, and BMW.
My impression of a Buick driver is obviously 60+, usually can't see over the steering wheel, drives about 10 to 20 miles below the speed limit, comes to a full stop before entering a highway on an entrance ramp. Probably has tea and melba toast at 2 p.m. Spends most of his day in a bathrobe and slippers.
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch. Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering. Thinks the more metal he can buy for his money the better the value of the car. If he is younger than 60 he bought the car at least one year old as a resale because he'll get it for half price. Probably prefers a bench seat in the front .......lots of room to fit
intoI mean onto. Or if buckets they will be divided with an armrest, you won't need them contoured for cornering.Yup, nothing like driving down the highway in your livingroom.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Can you imagine the quality gap between the craftsmen of pianos then compared to the UAW today???
That is why we see so many retired Navy guys driving Buicks and Caddys. It reminds them of life on the ocean. Floating over those big waves. I have to agree, it is better to ride in than drive. I like to feel the road more than is possible in a GM car.