Hi all: ---------------------------Give each adult a voucher of $10,000.00 to purchase a NEW American vehicle from either GM, Chrysler or Ford. These "vouchers" would have NO "cash value" outside of a vehicle purchase, and could only be used during a NEW vehicle purchase. ----(No used vehicles.) ---- This action would stimulate the economy from the bottom up, and get the American vehicle manufacturers a larger percentage of the "market share!" ----- It would take customers from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia.
What if someone doesn't WANT to buy a GM, Chrysler, or Ford vehicle? The great thing about capitalism is that we have a choice, and our choice determine things like market share.
Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Giving away a mousetrap that consumers aren't buying in the numbers you want doesn't do anything to improve the perception of that product in the eyes of consumers.
To encourage those buyers to actually get into a new vehicle though you'd also have to get them out of their current vehicles..
As you noted such a 50% discount on new vehicles would destroy the value of the USED car market....including all the used cars that are currently being driven by these potential buyers. If you've had your vehicle 2-3 years and like most owners you are not quite breakeven vs the loan balance if you reduce the value of what you're driving by $5000 - $10000 then you'll never qualify for another loan until the current one is paid in full.
Sell a brand spanking new Fusion for $12000???
That means that a 2006 with about 50K on the clock will be worth about $5000 yet your loan on it would still be ~ $12000+.
The typical buyer, the one who's being excluded from the market today is not well off. They don't have positive equity. They don't have any cashdown. They don't have great credit histories. This is the bread and butter buyer who buys every 2-4 years and the one that that the finance companies are currently discouraging from buying again.
Adding a worsend trade velue to the equation and that effectively excludes them for another 3-4 years.
But, what about dim's idea? Hi all: ---------------------------Give each adult a voucher of $10,000.00 to purchase a NEW American vehicle from either GM, Chrysler or Ford. These "vouchers" would have NO "cash value" outside of a vehicle purchase, and could only be used during a NEW vehicle purchase. ----(No used vehicles.) ---- This action would stimulate the economy from the bottom up, and get the American vehicle manufacturers a larger percentage of the "market share!" That might be better than giving loans to D3. Move some metal and keep the plants going. I won't be buying one but I'd rather have my tax dollars go that way than just go into a sink hole, at least some of that rusting metal will move and workers will build more.
Hi all: ---------------------------Give each adult a voucher of $10,000.00 to purchase a NEW American vehicle from either GM, Chrysler or Ford. These "vouchers" would have NO "cash value" outside of a vehicle purchase, and could only be used during a NEW vehicle purchase. ----(No used vehicles.) ---- This action would stimulate the economy from the bottom up, and get the American vehicle manufacturers a larger percentage of the "market share!" ----- It would take customers from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia.
So many holes in this that it resembles a piece of Gruyere cheese. Where is the incentive for the Detroit 2.5 to improve their offering ? How do you address the used values mentioned elsewhere ? So you try and cripple Honda, Toyota etc by blatant protectionism of the D2.5 guys..............so what happens to those Americans employed at their USA plants & suppliers and the communities that depend on their spend and tax Dollars ? :confuse:
I'd like to say the idea is half-baked but that would be massively overstating its worth.
Just an observation from the small island anchored off Europe.
Where is the incentive for the Detroit 2.5 to improve their offering ? It will give the D2.5 some cash to survive a bit longer and get their bills paid. Also, will help the economy as it will move some metal and push sales. How do you address the used values mentioned elsewhere ? Used cars might get slightly cheaper and that might attract the buyer who still can't buy new, but needs a newer car. So you try and cripple Honda, Toyota etc by blatant protectionism of the D2.5 guys Honda and Toyota don't want to see the D2.5 go down, hurts the supply chain. Economy is bad and they aren't selling too many cars either. To keep America working maybe the public gets a $5000 coupon for other makes...I'd still buy the Honda. ..............so what happens to those Americans employed at their USA plants & suppliers and the communities that depend on their spend and tax Dollars The idea might just get the economy moving again. Since the think tank guys haven't got a solution it is one that might just work, as crazy as it sounds. By the way, if any one saw 60 minutes last night, we have just gone through the first wave of subprime mortgages, there is another one coming. Not sure what will happen when more people leave their homes and prices drop further......think I'll get under the covers and go back to bed :sick:
> if any one saw 60 minutes last night, we have just gone through the first wave of subprime mortgages, there is another one coming
I don't watch the mainstream media anymore to see their brainwashing viewpoints (see election coverage by NBC and owned stations for reference). Did 60 minutes fix any blame for why all these owners were being given mortgages that they had no hope of paying off?
Buick did go through a period with pretty poor interiors. I remember renting a Century with an interior so austere a 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne looked like an S-Class Mercedes in comparison. The Regal was nearly as bad. When I first checked out a LaCrosse when it hit the showrooms in Fall 2004, I was very impressed. The LaCrosse interior was a quantum leap over the Century/Regal. My girlfriend was so impressed with the LaCrosse, she bought one the first time she saw it.
However, bad interiors or not, Buicks are extremely reliable and durable.
Back in the day, Mercedes could build the best car because it didn't worry so much about cost. People were paying the price to get the best. I remember seeing 1992 generation E-Classes going for $75K!
I can think of many choices - the Buick LaCrosse, the Chevrolet Malibu, the Saturn Aura, and that Impala you hate so much. We have had two Impalas in our family and they were stellar cars. My girlfriend had a 2001 Chevrolet Impala that was so awesome that it inspired her father to buy a new 2003 model. Both of them have had absolutely no unscheduled maintenance issues.
Everything about the Impala was inferior to the Accord, from highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship.
That is a matter of your opinion. It's very easy for me to put Impala and craftsmanship together as I've been around enough Impalas and Caprices my entire life to realize what a stellar product GM has in the big Chevrolet. I've also been around enough 2003-04 Accords to realize there isn't much difference except the faux wood trim in one guy's Accord is pretty impressive. You're also comparing a rental car to a privately owned one. People are going to dog that rental regardless of whether it's an Impala or a Mercedes.
They don't have any cashdown. They don't have great credit histories. This is the bread and butter buyer who buys every 2-4 years and the one that that the finance companies are currently discouraging from buying again.
Thankfully that is good economics coming back into play. This whole recession was caused by people being loaned money on Homes and Cars they had no business getting.
Remember the Hummer tax break a few years ago? If the government was to let you write-off any new vehicle purchase as an individual it would generate more sales. It would let the customer decide which companies should survive, Not Congress or the President.
I'm well under 60 and a lot of what you say about me is absolutely true:
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the more metal he can buy for his money the better the value of the car.
Yes, I do!
Probably prefers a bench seat in the front.
Yes, I do!
Yup, nothing like driving down the highway in your living room.
And what's wrong with that? I doubt I'll be doing a lot of aggressive maneuvering on tight city streets in heavy traffic. NE Philadelphia isn't the Nurburgring.
I also prefer column shifters and foot-operated parking brakes to complete your stereotype.
Did 60 minutes fix any blame for why all these owners were being given mortgages that they had no hope of paying off?
I don't think that was the idea of the story. The core of the story was that there is another wave of mortgages offered at very low interest rates, and these will be coming due and will be bounced up......starting very soon.
Seems Barney Franks plans to get money to struggling mortgage holders is not getting through to the people who need it. He doesn't realize that people who were careful and didn't over extend themselves will watch as their neigbor who wasn't so wise will get aid.
An 500E/E500 could cost north of 80K then - it was the equivalent of a 90K E63 today. Not a lot of inflation for 15+ years, but the car was more special.
I have an great offer on a nice Caddy CTS pending, but am having second thoughts about entering into a deal with them given the status of the bailout and such. Am I crazy to go through with the deal or am I carzy not to? Willing to hear any thoughts.
Oh yeah! It's been my lifelong desire to own one of those hot sexy CamCords! Sheesh!
That's cute, but did not in any way address what I said. GM should have some beautifully crafted cars with high quality materials that are very desirable. They can even charge more. VW is an example of a fairly unreliable brand that still holds high residuals because their cars are beautiful inside and drive extremely well.
I realize that you probably wouldn't like them, but people who want pillow-boat cars are not the majority. There is a lot of potential business out there in this segment and the D3 have really nothing in this area. Look at cars like:
I have an great offer on a nice Caddy CTS pending, but am having second thoughts about entering into a deal with them given the status of the bailout and such.
Unless you absolutely need the car, I'd wait. Seeing how politicaains have been changing their mind lately, and possibly playing games of pushing off the responsibility to the new president and Congress, I'm not so sure much help is guaranted to the B3.
My main concern would be the warranty. Is GM going to be there to honor, and will GM be paying their dealers? or how much?
One of the things the B3 should be doing is offering potential buyers a 3rd party warranty, in place of the factory warranty. Or offering a 30-day warranty, and discounting the cars further.
To Lemko and euphonium : RE: Buick and Caddie owners;
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering.
Yes, I do! etc.....
I give you guys credit, you know how you like your cars and you're not willing to budge on what you want in a car. You are the die-hards, because there isn't too many of you left. I am not normally a betting person but I am 99.9% sure you haven't taken a BMW or Mercedes out for a test run. I would love to see your reaction if you did. You will experience the pleasure of driving. When I had the 10 year old MB loaner I said I would rather have the 10 year old MB than a new B3.
But I appreciate and admire your patriotism for Buicks and Cadillacs,
I have an great offer on a nice Caddy CTS pending, but am having second thoughts about entering into a deal with them
Something to consider, a local GM dealer just closed here. He doesn't want to be stuck purchasing more cars, and then have GM go into bankrupcy.....he'll be stuck with inventory he won't be able to sell. Although a CTS is nice, and it would be hard to pass up a good deal, that would concern me.
Something to consider, a local GM dealer just closed here. He doesn't want to be stuck purchasing more cars, and then have GM go into bankrupcy.....he'll be stuck with inventory he won't be able to sell. Although a CTS is nice, and it would be hard to pass up a good deal, that would concern me.
The often cited "we can't let GM go into bankruptcy, because nobody would buy from an automaker in bankruptcy" may already be halfway here due to the publicity around the bailout. I know I would think really hard about buying a D3 vehicle right now from the standpoint of long term solvency. I wonder if we will see Ford do better with market share due to their relatively stronger position than GM and C.
Just deduct the price of a new car from your taxes for 6 months.
I was thinking more of deducting it from your gross income. Either all in one year if you pay cash or the total of your payments and down payment for the duration of the loan. Just like businesses do with their vehicle purchases. It would be an allowed personal expense like your home mortgage interest. It would effectively cut your taxes for that amount by about 25%. It would also get people interested in spending on automobiles instead of hoarding cash.
bankruptcy" may already be halfway here due to the publicity around the bailout.
Last I heard sales are off about 50% from the 30% cut back last month for this very reason. Even if you could get the money to buy, why would you buy a car from a company that won't be around to honor the warranty. I always suspected the GM 100,000 mile/ 5 year warranty was an act of desperation - either we'll sell more cars and keep our heads above the water or we'll sink and we won't have to honor the warranty anyway. It was worth a try, but those cars weren't really made to last 100,000 mi/5 years so they'll get drowned in repairs in 5 years anyway. :sick:
I was thinking more of deducting it from your gross income.
Gottya...yes, I think it is a great idea and well worth a try. Anything that moves metal is worth a try, especially if it doesn't come directly from taxes.
I wonder if we will see Ford do better with market share due to their relatively stronger position than GM and C.
It would be interesting if GM and C go the bankruptcy route, maybe the government would back up their warranties? However, if that occured, Ford may find a reversal of fortunes because the Ford family doesn't want their control lost through a bankruptcy and even though some of those "other bankruptcy" savings may be passed on to Ford, they probably wouldn't get as many overall cost reductions as a formally restructured GM or C. Of course, there is no assurance GM or C would survive a bankruptcy long term either I guess.
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.
What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a PhD.
Then there's the "Job Bank"
When a D3 (Detroit 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.
Here's a typical story....
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.
Now the D3 wants Joe Taxpayer to pick up this tab in a $25 Billion bailout package - soon to be increased to $45 Billion if Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton have their way.
The "Big 3" want this money - not to build better autos. No. They want it to pay the tab for Medical and Retirement benefits for RETIRED auto workers. Not ONE PENNY would be used to make them more competitive, or to improve the quality of their cars.
We ALL have problems paying for our Medical Insurance - but the Democrat leaders in Congress now want us to pay the Medical Insurance premiums of folks who have RETIRED from Ford, GM and Chrysler.
Not a good deal for us.
How about Chapter 11 - and getting rid of these ridiculous union contracts?
My girlfriend had a 2001 Chevrolet Impala that was so awesome that it inspired her father to buy a new 2003 model.
Man we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I remember when I saw that vintage Impala introduced at the auto show, my friends and I all made fun of what an ugly car that was.
Then my wife got an 01 Impala as a company car and I had to stare at that hideous thing for 2 years. Another GM car with a horrid interior. I also have fond memories of GMs infamous ISS and engine cradle issues. GM must have used the same intermediate steering shaft in almost all of their vehicles. My Suburban also has the ISS clunk. Very annoying. I was able to get it fixed in the Suburban, but my wife's Impala being a company car and under a fleet maintenance program, meant that a relube was all they would do. Very annoying sensation when turning the wheel and getting a binding clunk.
>You’re right – it’s not JUST management how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag [non-permissible content removed] so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week
And I thought only workers in 3rd world government run factories did that :sick:
All I'll say is by comparing by the photo, the Accord looks more comparable to the Cadillac and the Impala is typical GM cheep. The Mazda 3 has a more expensive looking interior.
I've never sat in a CTS or the new Accord, so I can't comment. But I have sampled the new Impala and as usual I was far from impressed. It's better than the model it replaces, but that doesn't say whole lot.
Now the pics I've seen of the Malibu's interior look nice, that would be a better comparison with the Accord.
>But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn’t work – that we need the government to step in and “save us” save us, hell – we’re nationalizing
And you know what the product of a nationalized car company looks like. In case you don't, you don't need to look any further. Just look below
i rented an 08 impala and i thought it was pretty good. quiet, stable, steered well on the highway. how many of those buttons in the accord dashboard do you actually use? i'm not big on 'buttons all over the place'. i do like them on the steering wheel. one of my nephew's just bought a buick regal. 'i wasn't afraid to buy it, it only has a 100k on it'. his brother has a pontiac gran prix with 210k on it, which still runs fine. my father in law had an oldsmobile that had 288k last time i checked, although it is gone now, but was still around for a few years after that. i am in favor of the proposed loans for the D3, but i am not sure if they will all work out. give my fellow citizens a shot to get it right? i'm ok with that.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
ford, for one already has the tech to build an efficient hybrid. why don't they build more? how about if the government provides incentive to produce whatever that bottleneck is? gm is focusing on plug in tech. i think ford has this too. provide incentive to subsidize whatever it takes to make that profitable. toyota and honda should get a break too, since they already have put in a big effort there. assist manufacturers of affordable diesel tech, too. the point is to make more vehicles that use less gas and make them in volume. i do love my v8's, though.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
The taxpayer shouldn't bail them out, if anybody should the oil companies can.
Why in the World would the oil companies feel obligated to throw money away on a business that cannot survive? Why would they be responsible? Maybe the oil speculators that ran the price up and helped seal GM's fate. The oil companies sell for whatever the market will pay. If anyone should pay it is the people in the states that are most impacted. Why doesn't Michigan float a $15 billion bond to bail out their automakers? Michigan has the most to lose if GM turns belly up...
A 6 cylinder diesel will give you more ooomph than that Ford V8. And cut fuel consumption nearly in half. My brother in law traded his 2006 Explorer in on a new Escape. He expected the 2006 Explorer to get as good a mileage as his 1996 Explorer. WRONG, the 2006 was a big gas guzzler. lucky to get 15 on the highway. He is getting about 21 with the Escape.
GM, Ford and Chrysler can be viable with lower cost structures and more union flexibility. They make some great cars, the people and technology is all there.
As for people who say they shouldn't get a penny of tax supported help I always say that these companies have paid 100's of billions in taxes and donations over 100+ years. The least that can be given is a lifeline in the worst economic storm any of us has ever seen! If we can give $145 billion to AIG what is $14 billion (or even $25 billion for the autos????????
it wouldn't sound the same, though. always gets your day off to a good start. if your brother can only get 15 mpg from an explorer or 21 mpg from an escape on the highway, um, er, i hope you are the smarter one. i guess my kids cans do some fuel efficiency consulting. they are not usually efficient drivers. i'm still not sold on diesels as an all year rounder here in new england.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Comments
Best regards. ---------- Dwayne :shades:
Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Giving away a mousetrap that consumers aren't buying in the numbers you want doesn't do anything to improve the perception of that product in the eyes of consumers.
As you noted such a 50% discount on new vehicles would destroy the value of the USED car market....including all the used cars that are currently being driven by these potential buyers. If you've had your vehicle 2-3 years and like most owners you are not quite breakeven vs the loan balance if you reduce the value of what you're driving by $5000 - $10000 then you'll never qualify for another loan until the current one is paid in full.
Sell a brand spanking new Fusion for $12000???
That means that a 2006 with about 50K on the clock will be worth about $5000 yet your loan on it would still be ~ $12000+.
The typical buyer, the one who's being excluded from the market today is not well off. They don't have positive equity. They don't have any cashdown. They don't have great credit histories. This is the bread and butter buyer who buys every 2-4 years and the one that that the finance companies are currently discouraging from buying again.
Adding a worsend trade velue to the equation and that effectively excludes them for another 3-4 years.
Hi all: ---------------------------Give each adult a voucher of $10,000.00 to purchase a NEW American vehicle from either GM, Chrysler or Ford. These "vouchers" would have NO "cash value" outside of a vehicle purchase, and could only be used during a NEW vehicle purchase. ----(No used vehicles.) ---- This action would stimulate the economy from the bottom up, and get the American vehicle manufacturers a larger percentage of the "market share!"
That might be better than giving loans to D3. Move some metal and keep the plants going. I won't be buying one but I'd rather have my tax dollars go that way than just go into a sink hole, at least some of that rusting metal will move and workers will build more.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
So many holes in this that it resembles a piece of Gruyere cheese. Where is the incentive for the Detroit 2.5 to improve their offering ? How do you address the used values mentioned elsewhere ? So you try and cripple Honda, Toyota etc by blatant protectionism of the D2.5 guys..............so what happens to those Americans employed at their USA plants & suppliers and the communities that depend on their spend and tax Dollars ? :confuse:
I'd like to say the idea is half-baked but that would be massively overstating its worth.
Just an observation from the small island anchored off Europe.
It will give the D2.5 some cash to survive a bit longer and get their bills paid. Also, will help the economy as it will move some metal and push sales.
How do you address the used values mentioned elsewhere ?
Used cars might get slightly cheaper and that might attract the buyer who still can't buy new, but needs a newer car.
So you try and cripple Honda, Toyota etc by blatant protectionism of the D2.5 guys
Honda and Toyota don't want to see the D2.5 go down, hurts the supply chain. Economy is bad and they aren't selling too many cars either. To keep America working maybe the public gets a $5000 coupon for other makes...I'd still buy the Honda.
..............so what happens to those Americans employed at their USA plants & suppliers and the communities that depend on their spend and tax Dollars
The idea might just get the economy moving again. Since the think tank guys haven't got a solution it is one that might just work, as crazy as it sounds.
By the way, if any one saw 60 minutes last night, we have just gone through the first wave of subprime mortgages, there is another one coming. Not sure what will happen when more people leave their homes and prices drop further......think I'll get under the covers and go back to bed :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I don't watch the mainstream media anymore to see their brainwashing viewpoints (see election coverage by NBC and owned stations for reference). Did 60 minutes fix any blame for why all these owners were being given mortgages that they had no hope of paying off?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
However, bad interiors or not, Buicks are extremely reliable and durable.
Everything about the Impala was inferior to the Accord, from highway stability, to performance and craftsmanship.
That is a matter of your opinion. It's very easy for me to put Impala and craftsmanship together as I've been around enough Impalas and Caprices my entire life to realize what a stellar product GM has in the big Chevrolet. I've also been around enough 2003-04 Accords to realize there isn't much difference except the faux wood trim in one guy's Accord is pretty impressive. You're also comparing a rental car to a privately owned one. People are going to dog that rental regardless of whether it's an Impala or a Mercedes.
Thankfully that is good economics coming back into play. This whole recession was caused by people being loaned money on Homes and Cars they had no business getting.
Remember the Hummer tax break a few years ago? If the government was to let you write-off any new vehicle purchase as an individual it would generate more sales. It would let the customer decide which companies should survive, Not Congress or the President.
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the more metal he can buy for his money the better the value of the car.
Yes, I do!
Probably prefers a bench seat in the front.
Yes, I do!
Yup, nothing like driving down the highway in your living room.
And what's wrong with that? I doubt I'll be doing a lot of aggressive maneuvering on tight city streets in heavy traffic. NE Philadelphia isn't the Nurburgring.
I also prefer column shifters and foot-operated parking brakes to complete your stereotype.
There's an interesting idea. Just deduct the price of a new car from your taxes for 6 months. Would that stimulate the economy?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I don't think that was the idea of the story. The core of the story was that there is another wave of mortgages offered at very low interest rates, and these will be coming due and will be bounced up......starting very soon.
Seems Barney Franks plans to get money to struggling mortgage holders is not getting through to the people who need it. He doesn't realize that people who were careful and didn't over extend themselves will watch as their neigbor who wasn't so wise will get aid.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I'd still buy the BMW. I love to DRIVE:-)
That's cute, but did not in any way address what I said. GM should have some beautifully crafted cars with high quality materials that are very desirable. They can even charge more. VW is an example of a fairly unreliable brand that still holds high residuals because their cars are beautiful inside and drive extremely well.
I realize that you probably wouldn't like them, but people who want pillow-boat cars are not the majority. There is a lot of potential business out there in this segment and the D3 have really nothing in this area. Look at cars like:
Jetta
TSX
BMW 1-series
Even Mazda 3
Unless you absolutely need the car, I'd wait. Seeing how politicaains have been changing their mind lately, and possibly playing games of pushing off the responsibility to the new president and Congress, I'm not so sure much help is guaranted to the B3.
My main concern would be the warranty. Is GM going to be there to honor, and will GM be paying their dealers? or how much?
One of the things the B3 should be doing is offering potential buyers a 3rd party warranty, in place of the factory warranty. Or offering a 30-day warranty, and discounting the cars further.
So, why don't I like Jeeps of any kind?
Likes his car to be the same comfort as his living room couch.
Yes, I do!
Thinks the easier the steering wheel moves the better the steering.
Yes, I do! etc.....
I give you guys credit, you know how you like your cars and you're not willing to budge on what you want in a car. You are the die-hards, because there isn't too many of you left. I am not normally a betting person but I am 99.9% sure you haven't taken a BMW or Mercedes out for a test run. I would love to see your reaction if you did. You will experience the pleasure of driving. When I had the 10 year old MB loaner I said I would rather have the 10 year old MB than a new B3.
But I appreciate and admire your patriotism for Buicks and Cadillacs,
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Something to consider, a local GM dealer just closed here. He doesn't want to be stuck purchasing more cars, and then have GM go into bankrupcy.....he'll be stuck with inventory he won't be able to sell. Although a CTS is nice, and it would be hard to pass up a good deal, that would concern me.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The often cited "we can't let GM go into bankruptcy, because nobody would buy from an automaker in bankruptcy" may already be halfway here due to the publicity around the bailout. I know I would think really hard about buying a D3 vehicle right now from the standpoint of long term solvency. I wonder if we will see Ford do better with market share due to their relatively stronger position than GM and C.
I was thinking more of deducting it from your gross income. Either all in one year if you pay cash or the total of your payments and down payment for the duration of the loan. Just like businesses do with their vehicle purchases. It would be an allowed personal expense like your home mortgage interest. It would effectively cut your taxes for that amount by about 25%. It would also get people interested in spending on automobiles instead of hoarding cash.
Last I heard sales are off about 50% from the 30% cut back last month for this very reason. Even if you could get the money to buy, why would you buy a car from a company that won't be around to honor the warranty. I always suspected the GM 100,000 mile/ 5 year warranty was an act of desperation - either we'll sell more cars and keep our heads above the water or we'll sink and we won't have to honor the warranty anyway. It was worth a try, but those cars weren't really made to last 100,000 mi/5 years so they'll get drowned in repairs in 5 years anyway. :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Gottya...yes, I think it is a great idea and well worth a try. Anything that moves metal is worth a try, especially if it doesn't come directly from taxes.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It would be interesting if GM and C go the bankruptcy route, maybe the government would back up their warranties? However, if that occured, Ford may find a reversal of fortunes because the Ford family doesn't want their control lost through a bankruptcy and even though some of those "other bankruptcy" savings may be passed on to Ford, they probably wouldn't get as many overall cost reductions as a formally restructured GM or C. Of course, there is no assurance GM or C would survive a bankruptcy long term either I guess.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.
What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a PhD.
Then there's the "Job Bank"
When a D3 (Detroit 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.
Here's a typical story....
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.
Now the D3 wants Joe Taxpayer to pick up this tab in a $25 Billion bailout package - soon to be increased to $45 Billion if Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton have their way.
The "Big 3" want this money - not to build better autos. No. They want it to pay the tab for Medical and Retirement benefits for RETIRED auto workers. Not ONE PENNY would be used to make them more competitive, or to improve the quality of their cars.
We ALL have problems paying for our Medical Insurance - but the Democrat leaders in Congress now want us to pay the Medical Insurance premiums of folks who have RETIRED from Ford, GM and Chrysler.
Not a good deal for us.
How about Chapter 11 - and getting rid of these ridiculous union contracts?
Interesting: Toyota North America doesn't want the D3 to go under because they don't want to lose their parts suppliers...many are the same.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Man we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I remember when I saw that vintage Impala introduced at the auto show, my friends and I all made fun of what an ugly car that was.
Then my wife got an 01 Impala as a company car and I had to stare at that hideous thing for 2 years. Another GM car with a horrid interior. I also have fond memories of GMs infamous ISS and engine cradle issues. GM must have used the same intermediate steering shaft in almost all of their vehicles. My Suburban also has the ISS clunk. Very annoying. I was able to get it fixed in the Suburban, but my wife's Impala being a company car and under a fleet maintenance program, meant that a relube was all they would do. Very annoying sensation when turning the wheel and getting a binding clunk.
Another car I'd pass over even if it was free.
And I thought only workers in 3rd world government run factories did that :sick:
I say, you look again and decide
Honda Accord Interior
Impala Interior
Hmm.. I say the Accord is on par with the Cadillac, and the impala is way below par.
Now in 2009
The seats in the Cadillac are way, way better than an accord. Even the dash in the accord looks, well, gimicky.
The gray color on the Impala makes it hard to compare; the soft tans and mauves are my preference by far. I'll take the Cadillac at the Impala price.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've never sat in a CTS or the new Accord, so I can't comment. But I have sampled the new Impala and as usual I was far from impressed. It's better than the model it replaces, but that doesn't say whole lot.
Now the pics I've seen of the Malibu's interior look nice, that would be a better comparison with the Accord.
And you know what the product of a nationalized car company looks like. In case you don't, you don't need to look any further. Just look below
quiet, stable, steered well on the highway.
how many of those buttons in the accord dashboard do you actually use?
i'm not big on 'buttons all over the place'.
i do like them on the steering wheel.
one of my nephew's just bought a buick regal. 'i wasn't afraid to buy it, it only has a 100k on it'. his brother has a pontiac gran prix with 210k on it, which still runs fine.
my father in law had an oldsmobile that had 288k last time i checked, although it is gone now, but was still around for a few years after that.
i am in favor of the proposed loans for the D3, but i am not sure if they will all work out. give my fellow citizens a shot to get it right? i'm ok with that.
why don't they build more?
how about if the government provides incentive to produce whatever that bottleneck is?
gm is focusing on plug in tech. i think ford has this too. provide incentive to subsidize whatever it takes to make that profitable.
toyota and honda should get a break too, since they already have put in a big effort there. assist manufacturers of affordable diesel tech, too.
the point is to make more vehicles that use less gas and make them in volume.
i do love my v8's, though.
Why in the World would the oil companies feel obligated to throw money away on a business that cannot survive? Why would they be responsible? Maybe the oil speculators that ran the price up and helped seal GM's fate. The oil companies sell for whatever the market will pay. If anyone should pay it is the people in the states that are most impacted. Why doesn't Michigan float a $15 billion bond to bail out their automakers? Michigan has the most to lose if GM turns belly up...
A 6 cylinder diesel will give you more ooomph than that Ford V8. And cut fuel consumption nearly in half. My brother in law traded his 2006 Explorer in on a new Escape. He expected the 2006 Explorer to get as good a mileage as his 1996 Explorer. WRONG, the 2006 was a big gas guzzler. lucky to get 15 on the highway. He is getting about 21 with the Escape.
GM, Ford and Chrysler can be viable with lower cost structures and more union flexibility. They make some great cars, the people and technology is all there.
As for people who say they shouldn't get a penny of tax supported help I always say that these companies have paid 100's of billions in taxes and donations over 100+ years. The least that can be given is a lifeline in the worst economic storm any of us has ever seen! If we can give $145 billion to AIG what is $14 billion (or even $25 billion for the autos????????
if your brother can only get 15 mpg from an explorer or 21 mpg from an escape on the highway, um, er, i hope you are the smarter one.
i guess my kids cans do some fuel efficiency consulting.
they are not usually efficient drivers.
i'm still not sold on diesels as an all year rounder here in new england.