By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
So the used car buyer's eventual experience is not important?!
Of course the used car sales price is largely dependent upon the reputation of the brand. So if D3 cars are so much better now, doing longer-term surveys would support this and would possibly help bolster the reputations and residuals.
True Delta appears to be trying to track longer term reliability. There's at least one 1998 model in his list.
But as gagrice stated Shelby's primary responsibility is to his state. What's good for Michigan is likely bad for Alabama and vice versa. It really is that simple. It doesn't matter if he has Hyundai, Honda, Toyota and M-B interests at heart. Since they are in state then he should be trying to build them up and knock GM / F / C down.
One other issue is unspoken. Michigan is a den for liberal union-loving voters who helped knock the GOP out of power. There is no love lost there. If this makes Michigan dry up and blow away I'm sure that the Conservative Republican Senator from the great state of Alabama wouldn't shed the smallest tear.
That has changing along with the economy. It's in the new sales numbers already. They better get to work on 6 years data. I'll assume the domestics are horrifying after 6 years until I see real data.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
So what, they lost money selling them, which tells me that they had to cut prices below the production costs to get customers interested.
And please note that these companies were not profitable even before the recent collapse in automobile sales.
The condition of GM and Chrysler only proves what Warren Buffet said - "When the tide goes, you find out who is swimming naked."
Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Very true, and I commend Ford, but it will take at least another five years of CONSISTENTLY good results to change consumer perceptions regarding Ford products. But it is a good start.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
No, he is referring to the fact that this bailout will not be sufficient to make GM and Chrysler viable, and therefore they will be back begging for more money within a year. Even Bob Lutz has admitted this.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
The problem isn't that they built pickups. The problem is that they lavished development dollars and attention on pickups, full-size SUVs and specialty cars like the Corvette, while allowing family sedans, compacts and subcompacts to languish. Not a smart move when gas goes to $4 a gallon.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
No. SOME Detroit vehicles have world-class reliability. But their lineups are still too checkered with dogs.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
Not if it allows GM and Chrysler to continue "business as usual." The loan - which, let's face it, is unlikely to be paid back - will only prolong the agony.
And thank you you non union workers for your red votes in '80 to bankrupt the treasury, create a terrorist organization to eliminate the evil doers from the asian mountains so that we can send this generation to replace those evil doers, and bust the air traffic controllers union.
And in case you don't visit Ed's site or the local paper, we want to thank all you riled up voters and self-righteous condoners of actions of war based on trumped up revenge, thank you for making Southlake, Texas number one in affluence.
Why all the above, because it is the same old stuff fed to the masses for decades now. It is very old. If you want blood that bad, I can give you a machete or a bayonet and you personally, up close, go get your Pound Of Flesh.
I've just assumed from the lack of cohesion of thought of those posts, and the veiled poetic prose style, that he's a lobbyist or executive at Chrysler or GM; or possibly a Jedi.
But I do agree with what I think I would like him to be meaning.
You might not be aware of this, but the PATCO strike was flat-out illegal. Federal employees have never been allowed to strike.
Details, Details
You know that the law does not apply to Unions. What we have is a strike against the UAW workmanship. We are striking with our automobile dollars and the Big 3 especially GM does not like that. Speaking of rioting. We have the other side of this bailout story. From those that have lost their jobs with NO bailout forthcoming.
Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., warned that the perception that some industries are being bailed out and some aren’t could lead to violence.
“We’re going to have riots. There are already people rioting because they’re losing their jobs when everybody else is being bailed out. The fairness of it becomes more and more evident as we go along. The auto companies may be hurting,” he said, but “there are very few companies that aren’t hurting and they’re going to hurt. We don’t have enough money to bail everyone out.”
DeMint blamed the unions for pushing this issue as far as it has gotten. The senator said the notion that reorganization under bankruptcy would not work was generated by the unions for fear of losing their power.
Early social security retirement but not fully retired. Varied education and work experience. RVN veteran but a peace freak. Organic gardener and support grass roots organics. Democrat by upbringing but would've voted for AuH20 if could've at the time based on my development at that time. No agenda. Want people to read and think. We are one in spite of the fact that the one in America is constantly under attack to separate the cream from the milk - money wise. Trickle down was really trickle down poverty. Improve the quality of education in even the smallest town, improve the quality of life for everyone. The rich don't seem to be posting here, they're gathering yet more money. We seem to be chewing each other up - in a cage - can't you hear the laughter from those outside of the cage. The Constitution is just a piece of paper - paraphrasing someone. And a contract doesn't really mean anything (Dallas and Ft Worth refusing to continue payments to the cities that gave up land for DFW Airport) - Texas Court. Eminent domain so that a Speedway could be built. Trillions for destruction (a source of access to an open treasury) and yet not a few dollars to fill a belly or ease pain. I am not waiting for rapture (it really is rupture) this beautiful land we have could be a heaven on earth for all the world if only...
Hey lemko they're looking for you!!!!
The air traffic controllers was unfortunate. I wished they'd worked around it but Reagan had the right to do exactly what he did. They were used to folks who ignored that thing about federal employees not being allowed to strike and picked the wrong guy.
The baseball umpires pulled a similar stunt with similar results a few years back.
Bailout Gets Second Wind; GM Hires Bankruptcy Advisers, Report Says (AutoObserver)
The later story:
Auto industry bailout dies in Senate (Yahoo)
The doom and gloom story:
"Shutdown of one or more U.S. automakers could eliminate up to 3.3 million U.S. jobs"
Economic Policy Institute
I noticed that the EPI paper concluded that "bankruptcy re-organization is not an option". I then checked EPI's Wikipedia reference & saw that its board is comprised largely of union officials & that it gets 29% of its funding from labor unions.
Here's another one you can ferret out:
“A Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing is likely to be a one-way street to Chapter 7 liquidation because people won’t buy cars without knowing they have warranty protection, service, parts and resale value.”
Auto Chiefs Must Lay out Clear and Attainable Goals (BusinessWire)
They don't know about warranty protection now. The local Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealership has closed it's doors. The owner said GM had previously notified him that warranty/rebate payments could be late. He said he was wary of being stuck with a large inventory of cars, with no support from GM. Chapter 11 pre-packaged bankruptcy re-organization is the only answer. It's the only way the necessary changes will be made.
People will blame UAW, but there is plenty of blame to go around. GM management is the main cause.
"There is too much difference" between negotiators to reach an agreement," the Nevada Democrat said.
The late night development followed intense discussions on a possible compromise that participants said fell apart over proposed wage concessions by the powerful United Auto Workers.
"We were three words away from a deal," said Sen. Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican who proposed the alternative and led the talks.
Sen. Christopher Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, said the main issue of disagreement was the date to require the Detroit autoworkers' pay parity with foreign auto manufacturers.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Auto-bailout-dies-in-rb-13813653.html
I never quite figured out what those three little words the UAW was supposed to say to the Senate were.
Was it:
"We vote Republican"
"Roll Tide Roll"
"Work for beans"
"Toyota is hiring"
"We drove here"
"Gettelfinger, not Goldfinger"
"Six more years"
"I owe you"
"Just do it"
“It's UAW time!”
"Have a contribution"
The sooner they start liquidating GM the sooner the auto industry can get back on track. There is too many cars for the amount of buyers.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the words were "Up yours Senator" over the proposal that UAW workers work for $1. We haven't heard ANY sort of detail regarding these negotiations, and I find myself VERY curious all of a sudden. What consessions were proposed, and not accepted?
Oh, and Corker represents Tennessee...who builds cars there again? Didn't VW just decide to build a new factory there? Maybe those three words were "Far feg neugen?" :shades:
Might as well take an Aztec back to Detroit?
Regards,
OW
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
All that has to be done is GM announces that they are having a new stock offering of $15B, which can be bought at $5/share. Let everyone in the UAW, and the suppliers, pensioners, and management, and the rest of the country, buy stock in them. I'm sure Mr. Wagoner would like to reinvest all the millions he's made over the years back in the company.
I'm sure many of our wealthy Congressmen who support the UAW and the bailout wouldn't mind putting a few million $ each into this good and profitable cause. It's a loan and of course they'll get it back.
Maybe the Big3 could setup booths like the cell-phone companies do in the malls and Walmart, and sell this stock there, alongside the toilet-paper.
All that has to be done is GM announces that they are having a new stock offering of $15B, which can be bought at $5/share.
That's even better! Neat and clean. At 5 bucks I might even buy a few shares!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What Detroit really wants is for more consumers to want to buy THEIR cars. OK, then check my Photographs & Memories and try to figure a way how they do that.
Seems to me that Detroit has built cars domestically that fulfill their needs (able to sell at a profit) rather than cars that fulfill the needs of the consumers. Detroit builds and sells small cars at a profit overseas but can't sell them here? What's the hang up? Import the suckers. Would that undercut their domestic production vehicles? Perhaps, but it IS a jungle out there.
Consumers, as a group, are going to makes their selections on any number of factors, including "loyalty", but you better deliver a product that meets the consumer's needs beyond "it's my favorite brand" or you're toast.
Does anyone really believe GM will completely fold up operations. Theri stock is valued at less than $5B. Someone like Google, Kerkorian, bill Gates, Apple, etc. could swipe this company up, re-structure the company that for some reason Wagoner and his band of misfits are afraid to make, and become profitable in less than 3 years.
Realistically what will happen is a pre-package bankruptcy. GM will negotiate all of it's debt, talk with all of its dealers and offer to re-negotiate with the UAW. All with the backing of the US government funds. it will cost US about $12B or so but you will have a much leaner, viable company. Once they get to this size, what they will find is people will want to invest in the new GM. Heck banks may be willing to lend them money and get us off the hook.
I understand the resistance to this type of strategy because no one wants to be responsible for the failure of this company. Wagoner is still fighting but he's run out of ammunition and the enemy is closing. He can either surrender and live to fight another day or keep fighting and face certain death. With the bailout failure, he has two options: Chapter 11 bankruptcy (which will likely end in chapter 7 because no one has any trust in GM anymore) or change the tone of the conversation with the government and ask for help re-negotiating your debt in exchange for immediate re-structuring of the company. I guarantee the lawmakers (and most Americans) would be sympathetic to the latter.
Chrysler: Start looking for buyers!
And then there were two......
If Wagoner and Nardelli (note I left Mulally and Ford out of this) hadn't approached Congress with such arrogance in November and had taken just a smidgen of the blame for their downfall, they would have walked away with a loan by now. One thing I notice is people are willing to forgive if you a) admit fault; b) take responsibility and c) demonstrate that you have changed or have a solid plan for change. With everyone struggling, there was no sympathy for the auto industry. People are losing their homes for God's sake!!! The arrogance of this industry from the CEO to the UAW is mind boggling. :mad:
GM has a real opportunity to re-invent themselves. No one wants to see them close up shop. and no one wants to see thousands of people lose their jobs. The reality is they are too big and too inefficient for today's market. I find it unbelievable that Wagoner and the Board of Directors do not see this. The writing was on the wall 3 years ago which is why they asked for so many concessions with the UAW contract. Unfortunately it was not enough.
Now this can be done. The government has to underwrite the warranty expense and let the car companies file for bankruptcy.
mind boggling does not even begin to describe their arrogance.
At least Wagoner conceded to the $1 salary, but the UAW? O my God. I these are the 3 words.
If I were Wagoner, I would roll the dice, lock the gates, and open up the plant elsewhere.
My father was in sales from 1954 to 1990. He always bought Fords or Mercurys, every 2 years, sometimes the next year. Loved his Fords. Then he bought a 2 door Granada, black with red interior....hated it. Bought an Oldsmobile Omega next, that was even worse. He didn't trust the brakes and had to get rid of it in a hurry. Later, there were reports brakes could lock and set the car into a spin.
Bought a Camry next and owned several after that. And that's how it happens - people got burned by the D3 somewhere along the line. I have heard many auto horror stories, but I have never heard of a Japanese car being a lemon. I know some early Hondas rusted out, early Toyotas were a little weak, early Hyundais (Korean) were sub-par, but very few disasters compared to some of those D3 cars :lemon: (Firenzas, Vegas, all X-cars, Aztec, Pintos, etc etc.) :lemon:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Similarly if Sears which is doing poorly in an ever worse retail climate, needs to declare BK, will they be allowed to fail, or would you want loans and the government to pickup their lifetime warranty on the billions of Craftsman handtools that are in the market?
DETROIT -- Chrysler LLC's suppliers have begun asking for cash on delivery for auto parts, the Associated Press reported late Thursday, citing an interview with executives. Vice Chairman Tom LaSorda and Chief Financial Officer Ron Kolka said suppliers and other vendors have demanded COD, but the company is "fending them off," the AP said.
Subscribe to Automotive News
When suppliers demand COD from a troubled company such as Chrysler, it can cause chaos in the company's financial structure.
Chrysler's cash will drop to $2.5 billion by Dec. 31, company officials have said. That's the bare minimum the automaker needs to make payroll and pay suppliers, according to the report. Chrysler pays its suppliers $7 billion every 45 days, Kolka told the AP.
"January, first quarter is a big problem for us," Kolka said.
Chrysler's depleted cash situation underscores the financial crisis faced by the Detroit 3 as a federal government loan bailout failed late Thursday evening. Without an immediate infusion of cash, both Chrysler and General Motors have said they could run out of funds to operate their businesses by the end of the year.
Chrysler has scheduled a meeting Friday with its suppliers, but LaSorda told the Associated Press the company will not ask for concessions. Suppliers know that concessions, either price reductions or longer payment terms, are likely, and the company wants to work with them to reach the numbers, LaSorda and Kolka told the AP.
Kolka acknowledged "quite a few" Chrysler suppliers now are asking for cash.
"The biggest risk we have is our suppliers coming and saying 'I want to be paid on delivery,'" Kolka told the AP. "We can't do that. The math just doesn't work."
Chrysler and GM now must develop a plan to operate after Thursday night's events in Congress.
"Chrysler is obviously disappointed in what transpired in the Senate and will continue to pursue a workable solution to help ensure the future viability of the company," the company said in a statement released late Thursday.
Chrysler is owned 80.1 percent by private equity fund Cerberus Capital Management LP – and 19.9 percent by its previous controlling shareholder, Daimler AG of Germany.
Besides the new VW plant under construction in Chattanooga, Tennessee has a Nissan plant in Smyrna, and their US headquarters are in Nashville.
And there's some little outfit over in Spring Hill - the name is fuzzy. Jupiter? Venus?
Corker has received $234,860 from the auto industry throughout his career (link), but I bet he gets cut off now.
If he's doing Nissan and VW's bidding here (and he may be, they both move up in the world with GM gone you know) I bet Corker gets a bonus, and a golden parachute when he leaves office.
I believe you're trying to recall "Saturn." But don't forget most important of all, Tennessee has AlGore.
Isn't it interesting how all these scandals and scandalous behavior on the part of congress supporting or not supporting the UAW shows the media bias again? They use the R and GOP words liberally, but in re the Chicago "affairs" they seldom use the D or D-word. When it was the toe-tapper in the airport restroom he was always an R-man, but we don't have the D-men in the reports.
But I don't know whom to blame more: the relucatant GOP extreme who haven't figured out they lost a lot or the UAW being given the finger by Gettelman.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I should go to the bank and secure a mortgage, then walk away from the debt, seems to be the American way..The left side promotes it..
The US Government has imposed stds that has made it impossible for Detroit to build, no oil, Cafe stds, and all environmental nonsense..The auto industry didn't pass these regulations, however Congress has decided that we should drive"crumb crunchers" powered by whatever some kook says will save the "Planet"
Maybe we should look at what will save us and our way of life, instead of trying to save this country's deadbeats..
As I do this posting, GM has just announced they are loping off 250,000 vehicles off their 2009 1st gtr production schedules...Good news for the politicians in Washington for they can spend our tax money to tell us that they will have to save the Industry by an emergency BAILOUT..
Let Detroit fail and take the UAW to the cleaners with it..
Nobody can afford to pay 700,000 retirees, so let's get it over with now..The [non-permissible content removed] have 200 retirees in the USA...So, owners of Asian cars are paying for the island retirees which would be out of money if you hadn't opted to put your American $$S
in an Asian "crumb cruncher"..
If you drive a Asian car and you lose your job, too bad!!!!!
Elections have Consequences, it was started in the early 70's with drilling and refineries a no-no..38 yrs later is the mess of Nationalization of the Auto industry, socialization of America, and Europe is finally trying to get out from under their Socialist way of life..
Nothing is free!!!!!! Your freedom was not free, your universal healthcare is not free, and maybe you will be more informed in 2012...Never too late!!!!!
No the warranty is thru Sears, the manufacturer makes no such claim. Sears charges a premium ($20 vs. $10 for a generic hammer) to cover these warranty claims. And the manufacturer is unknown to 99+% of the consumers.
Plus comparing a $20 hammer to a $25,000 Malibu is not necessarily apples to apples....
But there are billions of Craftsman handtools compared to millions of cars. :P
The point is that the government should not guarantee the warranty from various companies. A warranty is between the company and the consumer. If the company goes completely out of business (no one buys it), so does your warranty.
Let me propose this to all of you. What if seeing how the government is intervening and how consumers want stability in companies and warranties, and placing yourself as CEO of say - IBM, you were to set a strategy. That strategy could then be, let's combine our computer companies to be as big as possible. We will then try to gather more market-share vs. foreign computer companies by offering warranties that are 5X longer than the foreigners. We'll also offer free-upgrades. We'll then raise prices some because of this. Then we'll raise our wages and benefits. We'll sell a ton of stuff based on these promises, we'll bring in lots of money, but we'll still lose money over the years. In fact because of making the company so large and increasing revenues, I'm going to get the Board to pay me $250M/year in salary and bonuses! Then when everyone realizes we're going broke, well ...
1) We're too big to fail because of the millions of jobs tied to us.
2) The U.S. government could never let foreigners make our hi-tech stuff.
3) If they do let us fail, then the U.S. government will have to pickup our pensions and warranties. And I can at least take pride, while retired in my various estates around the world, in knowing that I did some "good" - my employees were "fat and happy" for many years.
This is the sort of message on corporate behavior, of what we're willing to do! :mad:
What's the lesson? If you're going to screwup really do it BIG time??!!
BTW: Did anyone see this article, or lose any $ on this Madson guy? It was disclosed his Ponzi investment scheme has lost $50B of investor money! They arrested him, but he walked immediately, posting $5M in bail.
You really should read up on your history. Yes, Clinton with a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS encouraged lending to put more people in homes. The onslaught of sub-prime lending did not start until post 9/11 when the government, led by REPUBLICAN president and REPUBLICAN congress, allowed investing using increased leveraging. This led to the mortgage backed investing and relaxed lending practices. Everyone was cool with it because everyone made money, real estate was rising with no end in sight. Then the bubble burst last year and here we are. Fair to say we can blame both sides and the greedy SOBs who made millions.
The US Government has imposed stds that has made it impossible for Detroit to build, no oil, Cafe stds, and all environmental nonsense..The auto industry didn't pass these regulations, however Congress has decided that we should drive"crumb crunchers" powered by whatever some kook says will save the "Planet"
yeah let's blame the government for GM and Chrysler's problems. I guess you didn't know that GM, Ford and Chrysler all used the HUGE loophole in the CAFE standards when they sold all those pickups and SUVs. See if a vehicle is over a certain weight, it does not count toward CAFE standards. Also the government gave GM, Ford and Chrysler extra credit for all the flex fuel vehicle they produced. Never mind that these vehicles actually got 25-33% less gas mileage fuel when using E85 fuel (which is only available at 1200 gas stations nationwide). But I guess you are right, the government made it impossible for them to make money.
As I do this posting, GM has just announced they are loping off 250,000 vehicles off their 2009 1st gtr production schedules...Good news for the politicians in Washington for they can spend our tax money to tell us that they will have to save the Industry by an emergency BAILOUT..
Great! maybe this will stop the need for GM to offer $5k rebate and 0% financing to sell their vehicles. US car sales will be around 11M in 2009. Plus there is a lot of inventory still sitting on dealer's lots. I call this good planning on GM's part.
Nobody can afford to pay 700,000 retirees, so let's get it over with now..The [non-permissible content removed] have 200 retirees in the USA...So, owners of Asian cars are paying for the island retirees which would be out of money if you hadn't opted to put your American $$S
in an Asian "crumb cruncher"..
If you drive a Asian car and you lose your job, too bad!!!!!
Now, now, I know you didn't mean that. I know a good man like yourself would never wish bad things on another human being. Why don't you go sit down on the sofa, turn on the hockey game nad have a nice cold beer? You feel so much better
Nothing is free!!!!!! Your freedom was not free, your universal healthcare is not free, and maybe you will be more informed in 2012...Never too late!!!!!
Of course nothing is free, I see how much they take in taxes out of my paycheck! :mad: We're still recovering from 2008. don't remind us we have to do this again in 4 years :sick: I rather steal from the WWE and have a 12 man (person) Battle Royal. Last person standing in the ring gets the Presidency.
Understood. My point is to not let GM go out of business but have the government back Gm as they go through re-structuring. Unfortunately, GM has so much debt and obligation that the only way out is a bankruptcy. But they need a major re-structuring to become a viable company. They don't have the funds to do it and despite what they have proposed, still is not enough.
The problem is GM and Chrysler do not understand that most Americans have no interst in saving an inefficient, bloated company....for history's sake. No one has sympathy for a union who feels they are entitled to have a job while thousands of Americans are getting laid off every day and losing their homes. So GM and the UAW need to take their "humble" pill and figure this out before bankruptcy is forced on GM and Chrysler.
The clock is ticking.........
There are two problems here for the D3 and it's a major part of the reason that they're in the mess that they are.
Problem 1..... A structural problem concerning US, we the buyers.
We as a group do not want to spend big bucks on small efficient vehicles. The major makers like GM, F, T, VW all make small very efficient vehicles in Europe that could immediately be sold here...they are often the same name plates. The only problem is that in Europe buyers are willing to pay $22000 -$27000 for a Corolla or Astra. A Prius goes for $35000-ish.
Here we want our 'economy cars' to be just that..economy-priced. We as a group don't want to spend more than $20000 for an economy vehicles. Thus to sell their small euro-vehicles here they must decontent them to get the price right.
Problem 2 ... US market Legacy Costs.
Whatever the number is .. $1500 or $3000 per unit .. that extra fixed cost cannot be supported by the decontented NA market small efficient vehicle.
The Corolla, Civic, Cobalt, Focus are all high-volume, low-margin, low-cost vehicles in N America. Notice that rarely are any of them ever advertised in an expensive national campaign. It's all word of mouth, very inexpensive but effective.
Why is it that any company in the WORLD can build under those standards EXCEPT FOR Detroit? It's not like the playing field isn't level and CAFE only applies to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Nissan, Toyota, et. al. have to meet those same standards. And they do, while making money. So you're saying that a level playing field makes it impossible for Detroit to build, yes? If so, the principles of capitalism say they should go out of business.
Way to go.....
Rather than being a chicken, and take your losses later, the suppliers are smarting up and deciding to face the problem head-on !
U stole my mantra.....
I always preach to my fellow friends and relatives
If you want to steal, Rob billions from a bank, not 100's from an ATM machine.
'cause either way you are going to go to jail. But, you will at least be famous :P
And at the very least if you can stash away some of those millions, you family can live happily forever :shades: