don't you think ford is playing the waiting game? Even if only chrysler folds, it will be a cash windfall for ford.
That's excellent strategy for Ford, as long as the government doesn't "cheat" the game by continuing to support GM and Chrysler. Helping GM and Chrysler hurts Ford, and would eventually push Ford into needing government loans next year too!
There's an auot-market for 9M or 10M vehicles this year. There are more cars than drivers in this country. And the economy is still declining - about an hour ago the markets are down another 4% (billions of wealth gone). It is not possible for all of the D3 to exist in this environment, at their current size.
It is also foolish for anyone to think that the government loans are only needed for these few months, and the economy of course will start growing later this year, and the billions of $ of loans will somehow be repaid.
There are too many manufacturers, too many brands, too many plants, and too many workers making autos in the world. There are so many, that prices have to stay low to outsell the other guy. They all lose money. They will CONTINUE to lose $ until they all shrink, or some go out of business.
To me the faster you can get the weak out, the better off the entire auto industry will be. The weak are those who did not save enough money,and have continued to show losses the last few years (even before the economic downturn).
And GM stock is down 14% today - the day it's entering it's turnaround plan. That doesn't sound like the current brave investors have much hope in the plan.
Me thinks there's going to be some great big softballs for the Congressmen in this plan, to question whether GM's execs. have a handle on reality.
Ford has another complication in that getting federal monies or entering bankruptcy may require the Ford family to give up their special stock position where they control Ford with a relatively small portion of the equity. I suspect this has as much to do with them trying to hold off.
The D3 problem goes beyond government loans. Someone needs to decide just how important D3 is to the US and its economic and other security interests. Most foreign countries have national policies related to issues like health care and energy R&D. The US seems to rely primarily on business investment, but I'm not sure these increasingly complex problems and their importance aren't becoming beyond the capability of just industry. If America wants to remain economically competitive with the world it may have to consider national investments in industry and R&D areas that are critical. I'm not saying business shouldn't remain the primary driver, just that the government may need to infuse money into critical areas. If you think about it, this is a primary reason Asia has taken over sectors like electronics and is becoming dominant in autos.
I'd have to look back a few days ago, and it might be in a different forum-topic, but I posted a link to a story about the ineptitude of the government - that they still hadn't spent the majority of Katrina recovery money, as it was tied up in their red-tape. I really don't see the government as being the answer to anything.
This is not to say that the government can not complete a project. Give them enough money and time and they do. The Big Dig in Boston is my local primary example. A $2B road project was finished at a cost of $15B+ and about 5 years late.
There are a plethora of examples: Halliburton contracts in Iraq, not knowing where the $ is going ... It is not a road we as a scoiety want to go down.
just that the government may need to infuse money into critical areas. If you think about it, this is a primary reason Asia has taken over sectors like electronics and is becoming dominant in autos
Not quite. There are many societies where government gets involved in the economy, and they are not necessarily dominant in electronics and autos. Only the LOW COST ones are dominating. Japan once was dominant, but when they became high cost, their dominance faded. Even now Japanese companies like Sony and Toyota, do not produce a majority of products in Japan itself. France and Japan are high cost, and despite their government involvement their economies are doing worse then us.
I already mentioned that I and many other people could make automobiles at a profit here in the U.S., if we could buy up what GM liquidates. How? No union labor, no legacy pensions, competitive benefits, cut layers of management, no dealers (buy direct from the factory), no corporate jets, and no sponsorship of NASCAR, NCAA football and all those other paradigms of the industry.
like Ford can hang in there much longer, what with the negative rumblings coming out of their organization of late.
The government had BETTER NOT announce what its next plans for cash disbursement to the B2 (Bankrupt 2) are once their survival plans are submitted today. Just give GM their last $4 billion Bush promised them, and then let's scrutinize these so-called plans very carefully.
I deeply resent my taxpayer dollars going to prop up a crap-producing privately held company like Chrysler, and I am personally convinced that whatever GM submits will just be more smoke and mirrors, based on assumptions that everyone living in reality knows are false, and making promises it can't keep. :sick:
If Chrysler fails entirely, that might be just enough of a boost for Ford and GM to right-size nicely. Better yet would be for Fiat and Nissan to pay the U.S. government Chrysler's debt obligations in exchange for the dealer network and the production facilities so they can begin producing the vehicles they have cherry-picked from the Chrysler lineup for their own brands (Nissan could use the Ram, word is, and probably the Grand Voyager for the next Quest as well, not to mention moving production of other models from Japan to the U.S. to avoid the negative exchange rate losses they are currently experiencing). Fiat could use the deal to establish a distribution network for Fiats and Alfas from Europe as well.
Anyway, it's all just idle talk. I'm sure that what will happen is the Obama administration will give them all $100-150 billion to keep churning out crap that too few people are buying. He will be leaving office in four years saying "the domestic automakers are JUST AROUND THE CORNER from turning a profit, isn't it good that we bailed them out in 2009??". SICKENING.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
kernick: And GM stock is down 14% today - the day it's entering it's turnaround plan. That doesn't sound like the current brave investors have much hope in the plan.
A Wall Street employee on another message board has said that investors have figured out that any virtually any realistic plan to make GM viable will either wipe out or greatly reduce shareholder equity. The share price reflects this sentiment.
"Since Chrysler LLC's original $7 billion submission, there has been an unprecedented decline in the automotive sector," Chrysler said in a statement. "Based on this, we will require incremental financial support to continue our orderly and effective restructuring." The Bush administration gave Chrysler only $4 billion of the $7 billion it sought.
They've got $4 billion already and want another $5 billion. Incremental? That's a heck of an increment!
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'm with you in your last paragraph except wonder what your distribution plan will look like w/o the dealer network to do the final assembly and warranty work?
NASCAR & NFL can go, but NCAA football is worth it.
The killer right now is that Fiat only wants Chrysler if the feds make it solvent and then it is given to them on a platter gratis. As near as I can tell this Fiat business is just a bunch of vultures looking for a free lunch. I wish it was otherwise.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Yeah, but andre3 owned one, it was a POS, and now every Chrysler product ever made is a POS, and they should go belly up for no other reason. The hatred is UNBELIEVEABLE!!!! I'm sure plenty of people have had good experiences w/ VW, but in general, they have a not so stellar reputation for reliability.
You know, if the Dodge dealers and Chrysler would have ponied up way back when and said, you know son, at 45,000 miles you shouldn't have to pay for head gasket replacement; we'll cover it. And or said, you know, you shouldn't need a new transmission at 65,000 miles so we'll cover it, or how about, you know MR., this Air Conditioner should have lasted more than 3 years and 1 day or 36,001 miles, so we'll give you a new one free of charge, then maybe I wouldn't have a hatred for Chrysler and all of it's pathetic incompetent and downright fradulant employees.
If they had done 1 of those 3 things; maybe 2 of 3, I think I'd have a mighty different view of the Big 3 today.
As it stands, they did none of those 3 things, and i'm happy with my Honda's and Audi's and giving the middle finger to the Big 3. :P
Which is what Chrysler was showing me when I had to fork over all those dollars for all of those repairs. Do they really expect customers like me to go back?
Did they honestly expect their decisions to make poor product with poor warranty coverage and poor service would have no effect in the future?
As far as I'm concerned, I owe nothing to the Big 3, but they certainly owe me some of my tax money, some of my excessive repair bill money, and some of my wasted purchase decision money. (oh yeah, they owe me poor resale value too). :sick:
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
As near as I can tell this Fiat business is just a bunch of vultures looking for a free lunch. I wish it was otherwise.
They don't seem like vultures to me, just smart prudent honest business men and women making a very fair offer.
I'll offer 1 billion less than Fiat for Chrysler (and I hate Chrysler). I'll make this offer contingent upon GMAC loaning me the money at 0.1% over 30 years.
:P
The first thing I'll do is close Chrysler and fire all of the workers. Then I'll open up a new company named after me and hire BMW, Toyota, Honda, and Audi Engineers and make real cars that people want to buy.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The only people that should be on trial for treason are all of the workers of companies receiving bailouts, and also Chrysler employees responsible for the fraudulantly excessively poorly built and engineered parts and materials with shoddy workmanship and build quality.
I'd like to try some of those Chrysler execs for treason and fraud. How about this... they are on their 2nd/ 3rd bailout?
I'd rather give my disposable income to just about anything else in the world than Chrysler.
Also, the politicians who agreed to give bailout money to lame duck companies should be put on trial for treason too.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
".....The only people that should be on trial for treason are all of the workers of companies receiving bailouts, and also Chrysler employees responsible for the fraudulantly excessively poorly built and engineered parts and materials with shoddy workmanship and build quality."
Give it up and bring something relevant instead of crying about something from 13 years ago.
To me the faster you can get the weak out, the better off the entire auto industry will be. The weak are those who did not save enough money,and have continued to show losses the last few years (even before the economic downturn).
I agree. You can't grow a healthy herd out of sick animals, and carrying the sick along on the backs of the healthy ones eventually kills the herd.
and i'm happy with my Honda's and Audi's and giving the middle finger to the Big 3. :P
I whole heartedly agree with you. I drive a Toyota Tundra, wife drives a Highlander, son #1 a Tacoma and son #2 a Tundra, so we are a Toyota family but I will be going back to Honda as my CRV was rock solid and held it's value exceptionally well.
If anything, I'd say Ford is getting some goodwill for not begging at the table, but I'm seeing red for GM and Chrysler. I kind of wish I bought an F150 instead of the Tundra. I even let a grand of cash expire on my GM card, pretty sad huh?
I don't think the government should give them anymore loans. If the auto companies are needing money that bad, they should sell thier inventory for cash. If they need money so bad how can they sell cars today and wait five or six years to get paid for it? The government is going to cover for them!
Give it up and bring something relevant instead of crying about something from 13 years ago.
The problem is it wasn't 13 years ago. It was much less time ago. Yes, the car was originally manufactured 13 years ago, but since we kept it like 5 or 6 years, that would make it more like 7 to 8 years ago when the final knockout punch was thrown in terms of virtually no resale value.
Again, no resale value for BIG 3 products (and for good reason!) is a big relevant factor in people not wanting to pay for BIG 3 crap (at any price).
And yes, an '87 Jetta was a WAY Better automobile then the '95 Neon. I'd give the Jetta a B or B- and the Neon of course gets an F- if I'm being generous with my grading.
Point in fact: the Jetta reached 100K miles in our family; the Neon didn't, couldn't, and wouldn't.
The only Vultures are Chrysler employees asking for the biggest welfare check payments in the history of the United States. This is bailout request #3 in my book by Chrysler, and the world would have been way better off if they hadn't received bail out #1! :mad:
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
".....This is bailout request #3 in my book by Chrysler, and the world would have been way better off if they hadn't received bail out #1!"
Not true. Chrysler in the '80's was able to recover as quickly as they did by consolidating their smaller cars on one main platform. The K cars, Lebaron, minivans, and convertiblles all were built on the same platform. Toyota and Honda implement this system today, with the Camry, ES, Highlander, RX, Avalon, and Sienna all built on the same basic Camry platform (ironically enough a K platform, I believe)
even let a grand of cash expire on my GM card, pretty sad huh?
The big question is, why did you even have a GM credit card to begin with?
1,000 dollars; doesn't it take 100,000 in purchases to earn that? What's the rate of return?
AGREED that FORD has earned some serious amounts of goodwill for not being a useless worthless begger or thief on the street to steal the taxpayers' money without any real intention of paying it back.
I think we need to start spurring the economy by building debtor's prisons again, and sending these low life company employees to a 6 x 9 locked up cell and making them work for low wages until their debts to society and tax payers are paid off.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Not true. Chrysler in the '80's was able to recover as quickly as they did by consolidating their smaller cars on one main platform.
Yeah some recovery!!!
It's like coming back in the 3rd quarter of a basketball game from 30 points down to get within 10, only to lose by 40 when the final buzzer rings at the end of the 4th quarter. :sick: :lemon:
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I think you missed my point. The gov bailouts will be saving teachers jobs. Many teachers do a bad job. If they were making cars, you wouldn't want one. Many police are doing a bad job. They will be saved by bailout money. But the auto workers, part of the minority in this country who actually produce a usable product, should be held to high standards to get bailed out.
Nobody needs a car? they will sell over 10 million and be back to 15 million in 4 years from what I saw today. Then there's the technical side who design cars that are made and sold around the world. There needs to be a balance in the industry to support those jobs. Have you ever heard of intellectual property? I don't want Asia to own all of it.
I think we need to start spurring the economy by building debtor's prisons again, and sending these low life company employees to a 6 x 9 locked up cell and making them work for low wages until their debts to society and tax payers are paid off.
This works! Go from making cars to making license plates!
I have to imagine that platform sharing pre-dates the K-cars but, yeah, Chrysler did amazing things with one platform - including practically inventing minivans (despite popular belief little vans existed before this but not in the US).
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'm just pointing out that something much worse is happening on a 50 times larger scale. The Stimuless package. Are you going to point out how we don't need as many workers from a hundred other occupations that will be on life support courtesy of the $787 Billion giveaway?
I think we should hold all people to higher standards, including lousy teachers, policemen (speaking of police, is there such a thing as anything but a bad, dishonest one?; especially the corrupt CHP!; what a waste of tax payer money right there!) but I digress.
Gov't employees should be held accountable to be more productive, useful, and efficient. We should not accept poor performance in the gov't ranks either.
So off with Chrysler's head, off with GM's, and off with the California Highway Patrol's head too!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The big question is, why did you even have a GM credit card to begin with?
I got it when I was young a foolish years ago. If I had any family that were looking to buy a GM I'd even give them the rebate (which I think can be done),
I agree. You can't grow a healthy herd out of sick animals, and carrying the sick along on the backs of the healthy ones eventually kills the herd.
I also agree. Kill off GM and Chrysler, giving Ford a chance to survive and flourish. GM & C have so little to offer and are so far in debt they will never see the light of day again. Ford has almost $100 billion more in assets than GM. At this point GM is a shell of its former self. I am betting on Ford. And have bought their stock as proof.
What does Chrysler have in common with Las Vegas casinos? There are no clocks on the walls.
Yep, Chrysler has taken down most of the clocks at its headquarters in Michigan in an attempt to pinch as many pennies as possible. Removing the clocks would save $20,000 a year on batteries, the Detroit Free Press reports, and workers wouldn't have to change the time twice a year for daylight saving time.
Does this strike anyone else as utterly ridiculous, considering that Chrysler has promised $30 million in retention bonuses to executives?
The cost-cutting has even made its way to Chrysler's snowplows. The company stopped plowing the top floor of some parking garages and lots, which it says saved $350,000 this winter. I don't know what the weather has been like in Detroit this winter, but unplowed lots could quickly rack up more than $350,000 in damaged cars. But Chrysler wouldn't have to pay the bill for that.
Here are more examples of cost-cutting, according to the Free Press:
--Lightbulbs. Chrysler's offices are a little darker now, since the company has removed half of the 80,000 lightbulbs at its headquarters to save $400,000 a year.
--Christmas. The company spent only $1,000 on Christmas decorations, down from $12,000 in the past.
--Heating. Chrysler turned down the thermostat so that hallways are now at 68 degrees compared to 72 degrees, saving $70,000 a year.
--Artwork. The company is trying to sell 32 pieces of art, which were valued at $2.3 million in 2007.
--Employee food. Hours have been cut back at the main cafeteria, and other dining sites have been shut down.
Of course, there are other factors at play here. Chrysler is in the middle of intense union negotiations, and the "poor me" dance will help. "See what we've had to do? Next we might have to take away the chairs!"
The company is also angling for $3 billion more in government loans (it already accepted $4 billion).
Chrysler and General Motors (GM) have been racing to meet today's deadline to submit plans showing how they will restructure and become healthy again. The companies spent all weekend meeting with union leaders, bondholders and others, and negotiations have come down to the wire.
Hopefully they didn't meet at Chrysler headquarters. Without any clocks, it would be hard to make that deadline.
(By the way, $20,000 a year on clock batteries? How many clocks did Chrysler have, anyway?)
I do agree with you that this stimulus bill will only keep adding to the non productive elements in our country. CA is a prime example. The largest employer in the state is the University system. Ten campuses and 150,000 employees. At least half are probably worthless leeches on our society. Professors that never show up to class. etc
This is what was planned from the onset of the stimulus. EXPAND GOVERNMENT. The Big 3 is a scab on our society from the perspective of our current Congress and President. They don't build the kind of cars that they would like to force on all of US. Personal transportation for the masses should be eliminated. What better way than bury the Auto industry.
wow, KY is really up there with pork spending!! our wonderful Senator Mitch Mcconell has done his job in raising funding for KY, yet voting no for the stimulus. But, can you blame him? as a Republican, he was out voted on the stimulus so why not get all the candy you can??? Honestly, they should be cutting spending, but what can you do when you are pushed in a corner??? why stop all of these people from getting medicaid, welfare, SSI, when you can just bring more money into the state?? just tax the workers to pay for it all when millions sit @ home with their big TV's, internet, and cell phones and complain their govt checks did not get to them fast enough... do they care if the "big 3" go out?? nope,, they will just get another clunker and now get their sales taxes taken care of... yoo hoo.. not to mention Toyota workers in Gtown are facing layoffs with no Union to save them.. their wages don't even compare to Detroits... they just want to keep their jobs!!
(Black Cat is a collector street in the county, not too far from Chicken Dinner Road - there's a sewer plant out there somewhere, thus the odor control).
I just grabbed a few and it seems the no it is not needed is winning. I hope the money goes to the projects slated. It seems that does not always happen. Has anyone found anything in the Stimulus that would give the D3 hope?
Ford isn't actually doing much, if any, better than GM. Ford just borrowed about 25 billion before money was tight and that is propping them up into 2010..maybe. It's not like they are making a profit. Their hand will be out very soon.
“It’s very difficult to imagine that the manufacturers or the unions will give up what they need to give up if they each think the government, ultimately, will bail them out,” said Michael A. Cusumano, a professor at the Sloan School of Management at M.I.T. “The bottom line is that we should have let them go bankrupt a few months ago, because it is the only way to avoid months and months of posturing.”
I'm with you in your last paragraph except wonder what your distribution plan will look like w/o the dealer network to do the final assembly and warranty work?
(This is regarding how I would setup a new car company, to replace Chrysler or GM.) Distribution - you do the paperwork on line, have the bank or buyer send in the money to my bank. A car-carrier truck comes picks up a load of cars and heads to a certain area of the country and drops them where the customer wants.
Warranty and service could be contracted to a 3rd party with existing facilities (Sears, Pep Boys, Firestone, would be some examples). A manufacturer does not need to have its own service centers.
Ford isn't actually doing much, if any, better than GM. Ford just borrowed about 25 billion before money was tight and that is propping them up into 2010..maybe. It's not like they are making a profit.
Ford is doing much better in that they have borrowed ZERO billion from the taxpayer so far. They made a profit in at least one quarter of 2008. They were smart enough to obtain credit ahead of time, knowing they may need it for a rainy day.
GM, on the other hand, hasn't made a profit in a decade or more, didn't need to bother with rainy days because they are the mighty GM and therefore should always exist, and is now begging for a total of $50 billion of our tax money...so far. Why our tax money? Because they have no collateral...I bet their bonds are down below junk bond status by now.
over on the GM thread that in the last couple of weeks, I have had lots of coworkers and other acquaintances coming up to me (knowing my interest in cars), saying they are so upset about GM and Chrysler taking taxpayer dollars instead of having to face the music, that they are going to be sure NOT to buy a GM or Chrysler product in the future. It was very smart of Ford not take any taxpayer money thus far, and I will be rooting for them not to have to at any point.
To those who say it's six of one, half a dozen of another whether to pay GM and Chrysler to stay in business or pay the costs associated with them going out of business, I say if it's the same either way, let them go out of business. Only if we let normal market forces operate will we have any hope of ensuring our economic future.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Only if we let normal market forces operate will we have any hope of ensuring our economic future.
Yep, the Soviet Union failed economically because they did not follow market forces. They centrally planned what they thought was needed, and provided no incentive (other than Siberia) for people to work hard and make profit/wealth. They ended up with a system that made junk, had continual shortages of many items, and the workforce ran on the motto "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work".
China saw the same problem, and altered coarse before failing. That is why they have become an economic force. They have allowed the markets to work.
Capitalism is not a perfect system; but it is better than the alternatives.
Also: As I predicted when the first set of loans was approved - GM and Chrysler will be back time after time for more money, because their changes do not go far enough. The only change GM and Chrysler want to do, is to change enough to get the money. They're doing the minimum possible, at the minimum pace !!
Just give US tax payers back the $13.4 Billion and you are on your own.
The company looked into three bankruptcy scenarios, all of which would cost the government more than $30 billion, GM Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said. The worst scenario would cost $100 billion because GM's revenue would severely drop, he said.
We all know they will milk US for the $100 Billion and still build crap cars.
(By the way, $20,000 a year on clock batteries? How many clocks did Chrysler have, anyway?)
I order the supplies for our office, and a 24-pack of AA batteries costs us $7.84. Or, about 33 cents per battery. The clock in my office takes on AA battery, and gets changed so infrequently I always lose track of it. I doubt if it uses more than two batteries per year.
Now, some clocks might use bigger batteries, or more batteries, or use them up more often. But even at $2.00 per year, $20K is still TEN THOUSAND clocks!
Comments
That's excellent strategy for Ford, as long as the government doesn't "cheat" the game by continuing to support GM and Chrysler. Helping GM and Chrysler hurts Ford, and would eventually push Ford into needing government loans next year too!
There's an auot-market for 9M or 10M vehicles this year. There are more cars than drivers in this country. And the economy is still declining - about an hour ago the markets are down another 4% (billions of wealth gone). It is not possible for all of the D3 to exist in this environment, at their current size.
It is also foolish for anyone to think that the government loans are only needed for these few months, and the economy of course will start growing later this year, and the billions of $ of loans will somehow be repaid.
There are too many manufacturers, too many brands, too many plants, and too many workers making autos in the world. There are so many, that prices have to stay low to outsell the other guy. They all lose money. They will CONTINUE to lose $ until they all shrink, or some go out of business.
To me the faster you can get the weak out, the better off the entire auto industry will be. The weak are those who did not save enough money,and have continued to show losses the last few years (even before the economic downturn).
Me thinks there's going to be some great big softballs for the Congressmen in this plan, to question whether GM's execs. have a handle on reality.
The D3 problem goes beyond government loans. Someone needs to decide just how important D3 is to the US and its economic and other security interests. Most foreign countries have national policies related to issues like health care and energy R&D. The US seems to rely primarily on business investment, but I'm not sure these increasingly complex problems and their importance aren't becoming beyond the capability of just industry. If America wants to remain economically competitive with the world it may have to consider national investments in industry and R&D areas that are critical. I'm not saying business shouldn't remain the primary driver, just that the government may need to infuse money into critical areas. If you think about it, this is a primary reason Asia has taken over sectors like electronics and is becoming dominant in autos.
This is not to say that the government can not complete a project. Give them enough money and time and they do. The Big Dig in Boston is my local primary example. A $2B road project was finished at a cost of $15B+ and about 5 years late.
There are a plethora of examples: Halliburton contracts in Iraq, not knowing where the $ is going ... It is not a road we as a scoiety want to go down.
just that the government may need to infuse money into critical areas. If you think about it, this is a primary reason Asia has taken over sectors like electronics and is becoming dominant in autos
Not quite. There are many societies where government gets involved in the economy, and they are not necessarily dominant in electronics and autos. Only the LOW COST ones are dominating. Japan once was dominant, but when they became high cost, their dominance faded. Even now Japanese companies like Sony and Toyota, do not produce a majority of products in Japan itself. France and Japan are high cost, and despite their government involvement their economies are doing worse then us.
I already mentioned that I and many other people could make automobiles at a profit here in the U.S., if we could buy up what GM liquidates. How? No union labor, no legacy pensions, competitive benefits, cut layers of management, no dealers (buy direct from the factory), no corporate jets, and no sponsorship of NASCAR, NCAA football and all those other paradigms of the industry.
The government had BETTER NOT announce what its next plans for cash disbursement to the B2 (Bankrupt 2) are once their survival plans are submitted today. Just give GM their last $4 billion Bush promised them, and then let's scrutinize these so-called plans very carefully.
I deeply resent my taxpayer dollars going to prop up a crap-producing privately held company like Chrysler, and I am personally convinced that whatever GM submits will just be more smoke and mirrors, based on assumptions that everyone living in reality knows are false, and making promises it can't keep. :sick:
If Chrysler fails entirely, that might be just enough of a boost for Ford and GM to right-size nicely. Better yet would be for Fiat and Nissan to pay the U.S. government Chrysler's debt obligations in exchange for the dealer network and the production facilities so they can begin producing the vehicles they have cherry-picked from the Chrysler lineup for their own brands (Nissan could use the Ram, word is, and probably the Grand Voyager for the next Quest as well, not to mention moving production of other models from Japan to the U.S. to avoid the negative exchange rate losses they are currently experiencing). Fiat could use the deal to establish a distribution network for Fiats and Alfas from Europe as well.
Anyway, it's all just idle talk. I'm sure that what will happen is the Obama administration will give them all $100-150 billion to keep churning out crap that too few people are buying. He will be leaving office in four years saying "the domestic automakers are JUST AROUND THE CORNER from turning a profit, isn't it good that we bailed them out in 2009??". SICKENING.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A Wall Street employee on another message board has said that investors have figured out that any virtually any realistic plan to make GM viable will either wipe out or greatly reduce shareholder equity. The share price reflects this sentiment.
That does it for me. Tell Cerberus to fund it themselves of fold up their tent.
We know someone isn't surviving this. Better it be Chrysler.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They've got $4 billion already and want another $5 billion. Incremental? That's a heck of an increment!
NASCAR & NFL can go, but NCAA football is worth it.
You know, if the Dodge dealers and Chrysler would have ponied up way back when and said, you know son, at 45,000 miles you shouldn't have to pay for head gasket replacement; we'll cover it. And or said, you know, you shouldn't need a new transmission at 65,000 miles so we'll cover it, or how about, you know MR., this Air Conditioner should have lasted more than 3 years and 1 day or 36,001 miles, so we'll give you a new one free of charge, then maybe I wouldn't have a hatred for Chrysler and all of it's pathetic incompetent and downright fradulant employees.
If they had done 1 of those 3 things; maybe 2 of 3, I think I'd have a mighty different view of the Big 3 today.
As it stands, they did none of those 3 things, and i'm happy with my Honda's and Audi's and giving the middle finger to the Big 3. :P
Which is what Chrysler was showing me when I had to fork over all those dollars for all of those repairs. Do they really expect customers like me to go back?
Did they honestly expect their decisions to make poor product with poor warranty coverage and poor service would have no effect in the future?
As far as I'm concerned, I owe nothing to the Big 3, but they certainly owe me some of my tax money, some of my excessive repair bill money, and some of my wasted purchase decision money. (oh yeah, they owe me poor resale value too). :sick:
They don't seem like vultures to me, just smart prudent honest business men and women making a very fair offer.
I'll offer 1 billion less than Fiat for Chrysler (and I hate Chrysler). I'll make this offer contingent upon GMAC loaning me the money at 0.1% over 30 years.
:P
The first thing I'll do is close Chrysler and fire all of the workers. Then I'll open up a new company named after me and hire BMW, Toyota, Honda, and Audi Engineers and make real cars that people want to buy.
I'd like to try some of those Chrysler execs for treason and fraud. How about this... they are on their 2nd/ 3rd bailout?
I'd rather give my disposable income to just about anything else in the world than Chrysler.
Also, the politicians who agreed to give bailout money to lame duck companies should be put on trial for treason too.
Give it up and bring something relevant instead of crying about something from 13 years ago.
I agree. You can't grow a healthy herd out of sick animals, and carrying the sick along on the backs of the healthy ones eventually kills the herd.
I whole heartedly agree with you. I drive a Toyota Tundra, wife drives a Highlander, son #1 a Tacoma and son #2 a Tundra, so we are a Toyota family but I will be going back to Honda as my CRV was rock solid and held it's value exceptionally well.
If anything, I'd say Ford is getting some goodwill for not begging at the table, but I'm seeing red for GM and Chrysler. I kind of wish I bought an F150 instead of the Tundra. I even let a grand of cash expire on my GM card, pretty sad huh?
The problem is it wasn't 13 years ago. It was much less time ago. Yes, the car was originally manufactured 13 years ago, but since we kept it like 5 or 6 years, that would make it more like 7 to 8 years ago when the final knockout punch was thrown in terms of virtually no resale value.
Again, no resale value for BIG 3 products (and for good reason!) is a big relevant factor in people not wanting to pay for BIG 3 crap (at any price).
And yes, an '87 Jetta was a WAY Better automobile then the '95 Neon. I'd give the Jetta a B or B- and the Neon of course gets an F- if I'm being generous with my grading.
Point in fact: the Jetta reached 100K miles in our family; the Neon didn't, couldn't, and wouldn't.
The only Vultures are Chrysler employees asking for the biggest welfare check payments in the history of the United States. This is bailout request #3 in my book by Chrysler, and the world would have been way better off if they hadn't received bail out #1! :mad:
Not true. Chrysler in the '80's was able to recover as quickly as they did by consolidating their smaller cars on one main platform. The K cars, Lebaron, minivans, and convertiblles all were built on the same platform. Toyota and Honda implement this system today, with the Camry, ES, Highlander, RX, Avalon, and Sienna all built on the same basic Camry platform (ironically enough a K platform, I believe)
The big question is, why did you even have a GM credit card to begin with?
1,000 dollars; doesn't it take 100,000 in purchases to earn that? What's the rate of return?
AGREED that FORD has earned some serious amounts of goodwill for not being a useless worthless begger or thief on the street to steal the taxpayers' money without any real intention of paying it back.
I think we need to start spurring the economy by building debtor's prisons again, and sending these low life company employees to a 6 x 9 locked up cell and making them work for low wages until their debts to society and tax payers are paid off.
Yeah some recovery!!!
It's like coming back in the 3rd quarter of a basketball game from 30 points down to get within 10, only to lose by 40 when the final buzzer rings at the end of the 4th quarter. :sick: :lemon:
Nobody needs a car? they will sell over 10 million and be back to 15 million in 4 years from what I saw today. Then there's the technical side who design cars that are made and sold around the world. There needs to be a balance in the industry to support those jobs. Have you ever heard of intellectual property? I don't want Asia to own all of it.
This works! Go from making cars to making license plates!
I have to imagine that platform sharing pre-dates the K-cars but, yeah, Chrysler did amazing things with one platform - including practically inventing minivans (despite popular belief little vans existed before this but not in the US).
Gov't employees should be held accountable to be more productive, useful, and efficient. We should not accept poor performance in the gov't ranks either.
So off with Chrysler's head, off with GM's, and off with the California Highway Patrol's head too!
I got it when I was young a foolish years ago. If I had any family that were looking to buy a GM I'd even give them the rebate (which I think can be done),
I also agree. Kill off GM and Chrysler, giving Ford a chance to survive and flourish. GM & C have so little to offer and are so far in debt they will never see the light of day again. Ford has almost $100 billion more in assets than GM. At this point GM is a shell of its former self. I am betting on Ford. And have bought their stock as proof.
What does Chrysler have in common with Las Vegas casinos? There are no clocks on the walls.
Yep, Chrysler has taken down most of the clocks at its headquarters in Michigan in an attempt to pinch as many pennies as possible. Removing the clocks would save $20,000 a year on batteries, the Detroit Free Press reports, and workers wouldn't have to change the time twice a year for daylight saving time.
Does this strike anyone else as utterly ridiculous, considering that Chrysler has promised $30 million in retention bonuses to executives?
The cost-cutting has even made its way to Chrysler's snowplows. The company stopped plowing the top floor of some parking garages and lots, which it says saved $350,000 this winter. I don't know what the weather has been like in Detroit this winter, but unplowed lots could quickly rack up more than $350,000 in damaged cars. But Chrysler wouldn't have to pay the bill for that.
Here are more examples of cost-cutting, according to the Free Press:
--Lightbulbs. Chrysler's offices are a little darker now, since the company has removed half of the 80,000 lightbulbs at its headquarters to save $400,000 a year.
--Christmas. The company spent only $1,000 on Christmas decorations, down from $12,000 in the past.
--Heating. Chrysler turned down the thermostat so that hallways are now at 68 degrees compared to 72 degrees, saving $70,000 a year.
--Artwork. The company is trying to sell 32 pieces of art, which were valued at $2.3 million in 2007.
--Employee food. Hours have been cut back at the main cafeteria, and other dining sites have been shut down.
Of course, there are other factors at play here. Chrysler is in the middle of intense union negotiations, and the "poor me" dance will help. "See what we've had to do? Next we might have to take away the chairs!"
The company is also angling for $3 billion more in government loans (it already accepted $4 billion).
Chrysler and General Motors (GM) have been racing to meet today's deadline to submit plans showing how they will restructure and become healthy again. The companies spent all weekend meeting with union leaders, bondholders and others, and negotiations have come down to the wire.
Hopefully they didn't meet at Chrysler headquarters. Without any clocks, it would be hard to make that deadline.
(By the way, $20,000 a year on clock batteries? How many clocks did Chrysler have, anyway?)
This is what was planned from the onset of the stimulus. EXPAND GOVERNMENT. The Big 3 is a scab on our society from the perspective of our current Congress and President. They don't build the kind of cars that they would like to force on all of US. Personal transportation for the masses should be eliminated. What better way than bury the Auto industry.
They're using batteries from Chevy Volts.....
I think what they mean by this is "We need $5 billion now, and a few more billion every month until we figure out that red ink isn't good."
http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_state
Black Cat Box Odor Control
(Black Cat is a collector street in the county, not too far from Chicken Dinner Road - there's a sewer plant out there somewhere, thus the odor control).
Regards,
OW
(This is regarding how I would setup a new car company, to replace Chrysler or GM.) Distribution - you do the paperwork on line, have the bank or buyer send in the money to my bank. A car-carrier truck comes picks up a load of cars and heads to a certain area of the country and drops them where the customer wants.
Warranty and service could be contracted to a 3rd party with existing facilities (Sears, Pep Boys, Firestone, would be some examples). A manufacturer does not need to have its own service centers.
Ford is doing much better in that they have borrowed ZERO billion from the taxpayer so far. They made a profit in at least one quarter of 2008. They were smart enough to obtain credit ahead of time, knowing they may need it for a rainy day.
GM, on the other hand, hasn't made a profit in a decade or more, didn't need to bother with rainy days because they are the mighty GM and therefore should always exist, and is now begging for a total of $50 billion of our tax money...so far. Why our tax money? Because they have no collateral...I bet their bonds are down below junk bond status by now.
To those who say it's six of one, half a dozen of another whether to pay GM and Chrysler to stay in business or pay the costs associated with them going out of business, I say if it's the same either way, let them go out of business. Only if we let normal market forces operate will we have any hope of ensuring our economic future.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep, the Soviet Union failed economically because they did not follow market forces. They centrally planned what they thought was needed, and provided no incentive (other than Siberia) for people to work hard and make profit/wealth. They ended up with a system that made junk, had continual shortages of many items, and the workforce ran on the motto "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work".
China saw the same problem, and altered coarse before failing. That is why they have become an economic force. They have allowed the markets to work.
Capitalism is not a perfect system; but it is better than the alternatives.
Also: As I predicted when the first set of loans was approved - GM and Chrysler will be back time after time for more money, because their changes do not go far enough. The only change GM and Chrysler want to do, is to change enough to get the money. They're doing the minimum possible, at the minimum pace !!
The company looked into three bankruptcy scenarios, all of which would cost the government more than $30 billion, GM Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said. The worst scenario would cost $100 billion because GM's revenue would severely drop, he said.
We all know they will milk US for the $100 Billion and still build crap cars.
I order the supplies for our office, and a 24-pack of AA batteries costs us $7.84. Or, about 33 cents per battery. The clock in my office takes on AA battery, and gets changed so infrequently I always lose track of it. I doubt if it uses more than two batteries per year.
Now, some clocks might use bigger batteries, or more batteries, or use them up more often. But even at $2.00 per year, $20K is still TEN THOUSAND clocks!
Something ain't adding up here! :surprise: