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http://www.indiana.honda.com/indiana.cfm
"GM is staying afloat only with the help of government loans, of which it is seeking more."
GM Posts $30.9-Billion Loss for 2008, Second Biggest Ever
Edmunds.com Predicts February Car Sales: Not Looking Good
But the answer might be no more money.
"It's a two-edged sword," Conway said. GM's shares fell 29 cents, or 11.3 percent, to $2.26 in early trading. Shares have fallen 91 percent in the last year.
Looks like they will get more cash. :mad:
I doubt whether the Auto Team decides on C11...that would cost much less since the assets/business can be valued more easily and there would be a finite amount to restructure. Adding more cash with no return is the current state of the process. No Sales, no business.
Regards,
OW
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gms-sloppy-bookkeeping/story.aspx?guid=%7B- 667FC67B%2D7722%2D4A8E%2DA5B7%2D0605E7726BCD%7D&dist=TQP_Mod_mktwN
And they've shown their analysts are too optimistic on how many vehicles will be sold this year, showing their worst-case was still too high than even what is likely.
I would suspect 99% of the employees will commute to the workspace. They might move but then that leaves housing vacant where they were living. More blight. Unsold homes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is also not surprising that with a median income of about $40K in this country, that the average person can not afford to pay the average price of $22K(?) for a new car.
I think Dave mentiooned how much better a 2009 car is over one made in 1970 or so. Well all those advancements have added considerable cost, maybe so much so that the average person can not afford them? Maybe there will be a significant market for the auto company that decides to concentrate on building "strippers". I believe Nissan did this with a versa model, selling it for $9,999.
Of course everyone wants a loaded model, and the last few years the banks and GMAC and such put marginally qualified people in expensive, loaded vehicles. Great result!
And it is rather ironic (including myself) that my house is nowhere near as optioned as my car. My car has Bose, AC and an alarm system, whereas my house has none of those. I spend about 30 min/day in my car and about 12 hr/day in my house. It's like my 17 year-old stepson has an expensive cellphone, but doesn't have the money for McDonald's. Are we all :confuse:
Funny, I just got a cell phone for the first time in my life and it's only because I'm piggybacking off my girlfriend's plan. I rarely use it.
As for lower income folks in sensible low-cost cars? Fuhgeddaboutit! Even po' folks like to be stylin' and profilin'!
Of course. Do you expect them to start here from ground zero? They already have established vendors for tooling Japan, who provide quality work. As time passes, local vendors will be established who can provide quality tooling. Till then, they will be imported. Why are you so shocked at that?
This only applies to transplant jobs. D3 jobs do not spin off as many jobs inspite of the even higher pay.
As Dennis Miller said on Leno the other night, half of all of us will be getting a person to sponsor over the next 4 to 8 years, ultimately sponsoring the other half of all of us. UAW may be part of the 'sponsored' if enough of us buy imports.
And let's not forget the federal income tax and social security tax that is paid by the worker's salary, this allows them to pay the property tax on their house, and for most states there is also income tax that is paid.
So the 5% sales tax makes up for the fact that the other 95% goes to Japan, etc? Isn't the tail wagging the dog?
Now lets look at the taxes. First, soc. sec. you get back if you live long enough.
Second, who pays more tax, a $75,000 GM worker or a $32,000 Honda worker in Greensburg? I bet the Honda worker pays no federal income tax.
Third, who has disposable income to support other jobs in the area?
If you can't give buyers good solid reasons why to choose your products over Toyota or Honda, then giving them more assistance is just delaying the inevitable ending. Better to cut the cord in that situation.
Third, who has disposable income to support other jobs in the area?
Considering that GM worker is about to be out of work because GM paid him so much that they don't make a profit on those cars, I'd say soon he'll be paying ZERO taxes and have ZERO disposable income.
That is SUCH an interesting point. Can someone point a flashing neon sign at the above? Here we have GM and Chrysler, supposedly with 19 out of 20 toes in the grave, begging for help from anyone and willing to do whatever it takes to turn it around. And in the other corner we have Ford, who is just fine thank you we don't need any bailouts.
And yet Ford is the motivated one and strikes a deal first. Seems more like GM and Chrysler haven't cared for a long time, and now that they think the government (meaning us) will keep them afloat, don't see any reason to start caring.
Wow, you don't understand how sales tax works. Let me explain it, and I'll try to go slow. You buy a car for $100. In a state with 7% sales tax, you pay the state 7 dollars when you register your car. The other 100 dollars still goes to the seller, costing you a total of $107. Oh and I didn't go in to any of the other fees. I hope I didn't lose you on this.
Now lets look at the taxes. First, soc. sec. you get back if you live long enough.
What you pay in today, goes to the recipients today. Funds paid in by future workers will be going to you.
Second, who pays more tax, a $75,000 GM worker or a $32,000 Honda worker in Greensburg? I bet the Honda worker pays no federal income tax.
So using your logic, we would all be better off if every worker had their salary multiplied 10 fold as they would now pay more taxes. Too bad my company would go bankrupt. And last I knew someone making 32K does pay federal income taxes.
Third, who has disposable income to support other jobs in the area?
Anyone who buys groceries, pays rent/mortgage, has a phone, pays an electric bill, or buys clothes. Every time they spend money, they are helping their local economy.
Better to let Fordhandle the domestic business.
BTW, the idea that we need GM plants to take over in time of war like WWII is outdated. Back then we didn't have full time military construction outfits. We have ever since.
Could it be that, provided GM and Chrysler play the game and jump through all the government's hoops, that this could be the government's version of C11 w/o calling it that?
I think the UAW historically negotiates their contracts with the perceived strongest automaker first. The other two would usually fall in line and adopt the resulting contract.
All bets would be off in this economic situation I'd think.
And to quote a (Japanese) colleague who visits the US quite often "Here I am working my [non-permissible content removed] off, living in a small house, using public transportation, saving money, which then goes to the US to provide them larger homes and cars - and they complain that we are exploiting them?"
It is not that black and white, my friend
The people will flock to buy the cars that are best offerings from the D3, and automatically the fittest will survive.
Ironically, if the D3 still cannot make a decent profit from those sales, it would be time for them to close shop.
I mean think about this - anyone who wants a new vehicle is going to really have an incentive to buy the vehicle while the vouchers exist. That means when the vouchers are used up or expired, there really is going to be little demand. So what vouchers would do is have the factories humming now, and then BOOM - the factories wouldn't need to run for the next year or 2. That's not very efficient.
Also why would you give vouchers to people to buy automobiles, and not give vouchers for people to buy computers, TV,s, furniture, and clothes all of which are being affected similarly by the economy? During a recession weak companies fail - in ALL industries.
Take a few lessons from Ford, I dont know what thier secret is, but they arent begging for cash.
Better gas mileage in $40k cars is where all the research goes these days. I guess I just can't afford good gas mileage.
Ford hocked every asset they had to get a line of credit. GM, having previously done that, didn't have that option.
So basically, Ford realized that when they had to hock everything they owned that they'd better get serious...while when GM did it, it was just business as usual?
Did you ever figure out how much soc. sec. you pay in? How about how old you have to live to to get it all back WITHOUT INTEREST? (not including use of medicare either) Yes, it's a long time. About 16 years for me. I include the 50% that my employer pays on my behalf, even though I don't add that 7.65% to my claimed income. I still stand some chance of living that till 62+16 and getting it back so I can't yet consider it as tax paid for my gov. to use for others.
An individual without any dependent would pay tax at $32k, but not much. It would take $47k as a joint filer with 2 kids to pay tax of $1. taxes increase exponentially with income in the US for the lower middle class.
On disposable income, I mean what's left after necessities.
Sorry you have absolutely no idea of what you are writing about. NONE whatsoever. Your lack of business knowledge is clouded by a UAW induced fog that makes you blind to reality.
I will give you one example and then tell me if your position makes sense at all.
When Delphi makes parts for the Tundra .... does Delphi turn around and send that money to Japan?? You simply don't understand the structure of auto sales so please go to school and get some background in accounting and business before going off 1/4-cocked. It's embarassing to see Americans write such drivel in this day and age. It shows that our schools have done a horrible job of educating the masses about how things really work.
Call it luck or incisive foresight by the new Ford team but they moved when there was credit available. GM moved too late. Chrysler wonders what all the ruckus is about.
Gov't has a lot of rethinking to do. They need to shrink as the economy retracts. If my house loses 18%, my prop taxes go down 18%, my local gov't needs to lay off 18% of their workforce. Then my house falls 5% more due to the unemployed and 5% more need to be laid off from gov't jobs. As house prices escalated at a rediculous rate in '03-'05, the gov't should have adjusted tax rates to keep total tax collected only growing at long term inflation rates. Instead they hired more people when the number of houses providing support didn't change. Then in some neighborhoods, up to 10% of the people in those houses were soon without jobs. Those people don't have anything to do and now the gov't is trying to be creative in not lowering my taxes as my house has fallen 18%. The same goes for ins. co's. I don't think there's a high demand for Canadian lumber that is driving up rebuilding costs anymore. New housing starts are off 75%. Insurance companies are trying to bookkeep $250,000 to build a house you can buy new for $180,000.
There will be winners and losers after all chips fall. Are all gov't levels laying off people at the same rate as GM is? demand for cars has fallen. Demand for gov't services never went up in the first place and is falling now. No trade to regulate, no new construction to inspect.....
When all the pain has been distributed and our houses have hit true bottom, the stock market has hit true bottom, and layoffs have maxed out, then we will look around at the devastation and head for the nearest Toyota dealer, glad that GM is gone? But don't wonder why, when we never recover from that bottom.
I wonder if the Japanese Parliament house has as many American cars in their parking lot as ours has Japanese?
The truth of the matter is that the D3 make nothing that the largest segment of buyers want, kei cars. OTOH the transplants here make exactly what the bulk of what we want, midsized cars, minivans and trucks.
The solution is simple....for the D3 to succeed in the Japanese market they need to make kick-azz kei cars and sell them for a $500 profit each. The only problem is that the Japanese population is more and more disinterested in autos. The D3 would be investing in a shrinking market. That's a sure way to get deeper into trouble.
Now China is another story.
If there was any logic in our government that is the way it should work. Much of the stimulus bill is to create 160,000 new government jobs. More busy work jobs that have NO value to the country or the tax payer. CA could cut a lot of jobs. They would rather tax us more and keep their dead weight buddies. The University System in CA is the largest employer. 150,000 high paid jobs in 10 campuses.
There ain't no money to bail out the automakers. Unless they keep printing more making what we have worth less.
Welcome to the Forum. If I could move my place in the sun elsewhere I would get out of CA as well.
Hope you did not buy Citigroup as my wife's financial wizard had her do. Only a couple hundred shares at $17. I wonder if any bank will be solvent by the time the Feds get done.
A prime example is the Billions given to the banks. What did they do with it? They socked it away on the Balance Sheets and didn't spend it.
As to our money being worth-less that's only in relation to other currencies, meaning imports and exports. By doing this, making the currency worth less, it makes our exports cheaper and thus more in demand....increasing our production. It also makes imports more expensive thus keeps them at the borders...giving our own home-grown facilities more options to sell their products.
In the near term massive infusions of $$$$ are a good thing for everyone. I think that they didn't go far enough. IMO they will have other bailouts, buyouts and stumuli bills far bigger than what we've seen so far.
I must have my timing off - I thought that GM had mortgaged everything (or sold parts of stuff like GMAC) before Ford and didn't have an "easy" way left to raise money like Ford did in '07.
I guess I could go look it up...
Any bank that is in trouble...BANG !! You're dead. The Feds move in and take it over on the spot. All investors lose everything. All top management is sent home that day. This actually costs us little or nothing.
Bad assets are marked down to real value and then sold off. $800,000 townhomes in CA worth only $350,000? Mark it down to value and sell it off to a new investor. When all this garbage is flushed from the banking system then the resulting stronger - smaller - entity can be sold to a new group of shareholders via an IPO.
It's brutal and draconian but it gets the job done in the least amount of time. Right now we, via the Feds, are being spoonfed sewage by the banks. 'Ooops we found another cesspool of loans. We need another $[..] Billion in bailouts to make this mess go away." 6 months from now...'Ooops we found another..........'
The bankers did this to themselves ... and thus to us. They deserve being kicked out with nothing but a box full of personal effects. If we via the Feds end up owning every major bank but one or two then that's the 'swedish model'. The Swedish taxpayers ended up making money from it.
Interesting.
Doesn't the earned income tax credit also give a check for each adult and the new form of tax breaks for "95% of American taxpayers" is a rebate rather than tax credit so that it can be given to those who pay no taxes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Several years ago the tablulation was put out that it took like 3 years of payments for the typical recipient then to get back what they had paid into social security. To get back with interest it was like 5 years or so. I assume that was a nominal 2% or so rate for interest to accrue on the amounts.
I have searched the net for info now but can't find it. I'd like to see a tabulation for current recipients.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Oh I think CA is getting bailed out. More money to waste on worthless projects. Sports stadium anyone?
The big problem is that the values of homes have fallen only about a third of the way down from the current peak (of excess) and yet the President was calling for a stop to the falling home values by the government's doing something to stop it. The point was that home values haven't come back down to the median line or even close. The point was money thrown at protecting the overvaluation in homes was going to be waste in itself and I suspect inflationary.
Money spent on keeping jobs and manufacturing of the US automakers is much more practical than keeping people in homes on which they overspent and could ill afford. The banks got rich along with the people pimping loans for the underwealthy who shouldn't have been put into homes or mortgages. Now people want us who have paid for our homes with careful spending and buying to subsidize those who are entitled to a home. For me, I put money into keeping Detroit manufacturers alive and subsidizing them rather than Japan or Korea (or China).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,