"General Motors Corp. has been bumped off its perch as Canada's top-selling auto-maker, marking a historic redrawing of the country's auto hierarchy as buyers fretting about the economy opt for the cheapest car that will fit their needs.
During a month in which total industry sales fell 28%, Chrysler LLC toppled GM in February to become number one. It was the first time since 1949 that GM has been outsold by a rival, industry consultant Dennis DesRosiers said."
No need for new loans...the inevitable is telling the Car Team to stop the bleeding. Will they listen?
GM auditors raise doubts on automaker's viability GM auditors cite losses, lack of cash flow in raising doubts about its viability
* Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer * Thursday March 5, 2009, 6:37 am EST
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. says its auditors have raised substantial doubt about the company's ability to continue operations.
The troubled automaker revealed the auditors' concerns in its annual report filed on Thursday.
GM has received $13.4 billion in federal loans as it tries to survive the worst auto sales climate in 27 years. It is seeking a total of $30 billion from the government. During the past three years it has piled up $82 billion in losses, including $30.9 billion in 2008.
GM says in its report that its auditors cited recurring losses from operations, stockholders' deficit and an inability to generate enough cash to meet its obligations in raising substantial doubts about its ability to continue as a going concern.
It's sort of like a death watch. Major news that 6 months ago would have gotten us all riled up is just routine now. We're all waiting to see what happens.
Just maybe Detroit should get a meeting with Kia to see what they're doing since 2009 sales for Kia have been a Pleasant Surprise
Size would seem to be a big factor. GM is simply going to have to be scaled back to match production with demand. How that happens is the multi-billion dollar question.
Automotive news did a report on this, and spoke w/ someone at a firm that specializes in this, and said it may not be that big of a deal, and that GM may be able to use this as leverage in negotiating with their creditors.
I STILL don't understand why the government couldn't have sat down with the automakers and their creditors and played "Let's Make a Deal". With all the money these banks got in TARP funds, why couldn't they have said ammortize the debt over 30 years. The gov't gets 25% ownership in each automaker, and the banks agree to no payments for 24 months (that's what the TARP funds are for) and the government will guarantee the loans. This way, the automakers get temporary relief from their debt, the creditors get a guarantee of their money back, and the government would've laid out ZERO dollars now.
This would allow the D3 to prove their worthiness by building better products like the Fusion, Lacrosse, and whatever Chrysler could come up with.
If they can't, and still go belly up, then the pieces get sold off and the government can recoup some of their loss by selling the proporties and intellectual rights to others.
It's loan and bond structure is based on them being a 5 million unit company. It has - or had - enough capacity to build this many vehicles. It is closing some plants so the costs associated with these plants are decreasing.
But the loans and bonds on these plants don't go away. If they still own the land and plant then they still have to pay taxes to the localities. They have to do basic maintenance to keep the buildings 'salable'.
These costs just keep on eating up GM's revenues every month. In the future GM will likely have a 20% marketshare of a 12 million unit market which is 2.5 million units....not 5 milion units. The extra weight of the loans and bonds cannot be made to go away...unless:
..they default and declare bankruptcy thus stiffing the lenders; ..they somehow convince the lenders to convert the loans and bonds into shares, which have no rights whatsoever :surprise: ; ..they continue to beg the American public for enough money to pay their bills for the intermediate term, such as through 2020, or ask us for the Chinese Solution: one lump sum to pay off all the lenders in exchange for which we all own the company. IOW nationalization.
But they cannot get out from underneath the burden of carrying capacity and indebtedness for building 5 million units.
I might add. IF the legacy cost per vehicle was $1500 when they sold 5 million vehicles. That cost will double if they only sell 2.5 million. The legacy cost IS a fixed number as is the debt and interest on that debt. The D3 in their lack of insight somehow believed they would be selling more and more cars thus cutting that cost per car. All the while hoping that the buyer would not notice cuts in content and quality.
They are trying that right now. Problem is their SAAR forecasts were so far off that the current numbers are far worse than in November 2008 when they first visited Congress.
That makes viability with their plan not reachable. No sales, no business.
Don't look now, but they are at a rate to sell 1.5 million units. It's curtains for their plan at this level of activity.
Tomorrow, jobless data will show February will be on par with January. The bleeding continues. This is uncharted territory so they can not restructure fast enough to ward off collapse.
That will bring the legacy costs up to $5000 per car. I suppose they could add that to a Cadillac and the buyer would not notice. On an Aveo it might be a deal breaker.
Yeah, maybe if the Korean government were as generous as ours by letting our cars compete in Korea without all of the extra tarrifs and trade restrictions, GM could export its way out of trouble and send the profits back over here. I mean that what the Japanese and Koreans do anyways. Why shouldn't we do it to them? Oh Wait, They have senetors Shelby, Corker and McConnel on their payroll. American companies should just cahnge their names to Japanese ones and they could get all of the money they need.
Yeah, maybe if the Korean government were as generous as ours by letting our cars compete in Korea without all of the extra tarrifs and trade restrictions, GM could export its way out of trouble and send the profits back over here.
GM can't even compete with Hyundai HERE, and you figure the solution is to go compete with them on their home turf?
This would allow the D3 to prove their worthiness by building better products like the Fusion, Lacrosse, and whatever Chrysler could come up with.
It's not about products anymore. That needed to happen years ago. I agree with kdh and gagrice. To state what they said in a different way, GM and Chrysler (and every other auto maker) are simply too big for the market now. And car companies with unions can not adjust size quickly. And GM and Chrysler have 2 large problems that others don't 1) they have a huge number of pensioners getting very good benefits. The other manufacturers don't only having gotten large recently. With GM and Chrysler losing market share they have a much higher number of pensioners to support per car sold then the others. 2) GM and Chrysler went into this financial crisis very weak - not having much reserves. This might be analogous to the person getting laid off who has $1,000 in the bank, when experts tell you have 3-6 months of cash available.
SO GM and Chrysler are paying the price for the years of losses they've had.
Ron - go do some research on what Korean auto makers get paid, what sort of lifestyle that buys them (house, 2 cars, boat?), and what sort of money they get in pension.
".....1) they have a huge number of pensioners getting very good benefits. The other manufacturers don't only having gotten large recently. With GM and Chrysler losing market share they have a much higher number of pensioners to support per car sold then the others. 2) GM and Chrysler went into this financial crisis very weak - not having much reserves."
I agree with the problem of the pensioneers. But to rid themselves of that problem, we talk C11. Problem w/ C11 is, the presumption that car sales tank relative to the rest of the industry. I think that the govenment has, in essence, "put" GM in C11 by giving them the bailout money, only we're not calling it C11, we're calling it a bailout.
My scenario would have cost the government little to no money short term, and afforded the automakers time (24-36 months) to restructure to the market that is available to them, w/o having to make debt payments during that time frame.
without value and profitability. All of you on this forum know there is none of either left in the D3. Ford is on borrowed time but at least they are fighting a loosing cause which is a lot better than begging for bailouts that will inevitably NOT get paid back.
Why keep pumping money into them.?
Auction them off in C11, pay the unemployment benefits and retraining programs and right-size the industry. That is the fast way to successfully restructuring the industry. Blow it up and rebuild from scratch. There is far too much excess baggage to evolve into profitability and real corporate value-building in the current company structure.
The current corpserations are starting to smell even before they are cremated!
Ford is on borrowed time but at least they are fighting a loosing cause
Hardly, they've got a real shot. They've got new models that HAVEN'T been delayed (Fiesta, Fusion), they've already shrunk themselves down to the essentials, and they are fixing it so they're NOT dependent on a large market share to be profitable.
GM has always worshiped market share to the point where profit became a secondary objective. The Cruze is now delayed, who knows about the Volt, , they talk about paring down brands but so far it's all talk: they're still sitting on 8 brands, and MIGHT reduce that to 6 in the near future (Saab is already in bankruptcy and might be gone, but that was forced on GM rather than GM deciding to do it).
And wonder of wonders, GM is still preaching market share, instead of trying to find a way to be profitable regardless of market share.
There's a reason why GM's stock has taken a beating and Fords...well, not as much of a beating. Ford is trading at $1.75, while GM is trading at $1.56. Theoretically GM is a larger company with more assets and a higher market cap.
Ford is woth $4.5B while GM is worth $885,000, so a huge difference. Remember, however, Ford was at $16/share in 2004. I beleive Ford will not survive this market in it's present structure. IT might be the best of the failed industry in the US but it is hardly a springboard for a strong industry leader to reinvent the industry, IMHO.
A new entity must be formed to reinvent the future of our auto manufacturing. No current company is poised to lead that mission.
I beleive Ford will not survive this market in it's present structure.
That's the point...its present structure is in flux, and has been even before the recession. It doesn't HAVE a present state because it's been reinventing itself since Mually came on board. Given that, I think they've got a good chance of surviving: they've shown themselves to be a much more flexible, nimble, and adaptable company, and they ARE a leader in some ways. They're leading the way in hybrid technology now, with Fusion spanking Toyota's technology. Their standard ICE engines are looking to leapfrog the competition...the Fiesta looks like it'll get 40 MPG highway, something no one else can match with a pure ICE solution (toyota's little 1.5l doesn't even manage that, I think). Ford's got a lot of success to fall back on, and the public is loving them compared to the Bailout Boys (which sounds like it may soon include Toyota...imagine how a good PR campaign can take advantage of THAT).
GM, on the other hand, has spent its entire existence trying to avoid change.
I understand your point. Here is the top 20 model sales as of Feb 2009 vs Feb 2008 and ytd comparisons. Fusion isn't that high of a seller. If you look at just cars, you can see that the US doesn't even compete until you add collective numbers. Look at Cobalt and G-6 and there is huge declines vs. the competition.
I agree Ford is reinventing itself. Let's see if the market doesn't make change REAL Quick in the next 2 months. My view is their change rate is not going to cut it when it comes to viability considering the current demand climate. We are not at the bottom yet and Ford is just too big to change fast enough on it's own. Just MHO.
Model Feb 2009 %Chg from Feb 2008 YTD 2009 % Chg from YTD 2008
Ford F - Series PU 23,614 -55.1 48,851 -47.8 Toyota Camry / Solara 20,634 -40.9 41,416 -37.7 Chevrolet Silverado PU 19,788 -55.1 43,775 -45.4 Toyota Corolla / Matrix 18,103 -14.6 37,341 -11.0 Nissan Altima 16,002 -31.5 30,137 -33.0 Honda Accord 15,976 -42.2 32,557 -36.9 Honda Civic 15,687 -34.1 29,885 -33.3 Dodge Ram PU 14,448 -36.2 27,291 -35.9 Honda CR-V 12,370 -21.2 25,513 -19.5 Chevrolet Malibu 11,516 -5.7 20,828 -20.9 Ford Escape 10,090 -28.9 18,450 -27.3 Ford Focus 9,904 -39.2 17,673 -36.7 Jeep Wrangler 9,088 28.2 15,450 16.8 Dodge Caravan 9,003 -18.7 12,222 -36.2 Hyundai Elantra 8,978 33.0 12,285 -0.6 Toyota RAV4 8,398 0.0 16,432 0.0 Chevrolet Cobalt 8,317 -51.0 13,508 -60.6 Pontiac G6 8,126 -51.9 10,594 -65.7 Chrysler Town & Country 8,099 -32.2 12,391 -41.1 Toyota Tacoma PU 7,874 -40.0 15,493 -36.0
Here is the top 20 model sales as of Feb 2009 vs Feb 2008 and ytd comparisons. Fusion isn't that high of a seller.
Sorry, but you're falling into the "market share" trap there (see how much GM brainwashed us?). It doesn't matter how many Fusions Ford sells total. What matters is that A: they sell all of the ones they make, and B: they make a profit on them.
For how many years was the Mazda3 considered the cream of the crop for small cars? Despite the fact that Mazda didn't sell as many of those as Honda sold Civics? And couldn't, because Mazda simply didn't have the manufacturing capacity?
Ford's biggest problem is that it doesn't make consumer-attractive vehicles. Not enough power to compete plus bland styling or sometimes just ugly styling. Compare Accord, Camry even Malibu's engine offerings to Ford. When I look at their lineup, nothing catches my eye and I wouldn't spend 15k on one... much less 25-30k or more.
I know..twin turbo SHO is coming. Twin turbo....yeah, that sounds reliable for a family car. It also will cost 40K plus. By the end of the model year it will be apparent Ford is headed in the same direction, the hill just isn't as steep due to the 23 billion Ford borrowed.
How do they plan to ever pay that back? It appears the yearly sales are heading ever downward to under 9 million a year in the USA...I say that because all sales forecasts have been optimistic so far.
There are 1250 Fusions in a 100 mile radius of where I live. They won't need to make any more until the spring of 2010 at the current sales rate. That is better than the 2136 Impalas. Hertz should get a new fleet real cheap next fall.
If they still haven't got from when the first Toyota or Datsun came over the big use to be 3 will never get it right. Maybe they don't want a bailout as they can reorganise and say good bye to unions ,health care and Detroit. :lemon:
So, Ford needs to shrink down fast. That's what I'm talking a bout...exploding a bomb inside all of these companies and ending the games they invented. The market will do it one way or another. The issue is at what price? Do you let it evolve or take drastic measures now to make it happen?
The thing is that Ford HAS shrunk themselves down already and the signs are pointing in the right direction for them. RR? gone. Jag? gone. Minimal development dollars are being spent on Mercury as well. Hell, when was the last time you saw a Mercury commerical? Now, I miss Jill Wagner as much as the next guy, but cutting the marketing and development for the brand is a good financial decision.
Meanwhile GM has had Hummer on the auction block since the summer of 08', and is still clinging to their Swedish outfit that has filed for bankruptcy and stop building cars all together. Both of which still have advertising out their btw. :shades:
That's the problem the unions and iept management,plus a lack of vision is one of the main reasons I'd let them go belly up. We have to have two cars, a boat,camp and never say no to our kids. methinks the party's over but, it's not and if we get out of this mess,we will be in it again. Did you see the pay off at The Honda Classic and The Nortwest Bank golf tournaments? I wonder if there a Buick Open this year? A Rod gets $250,000,000.00 to play baseball.Some guy on Opera,gave her and her friend a Bently car a piece@$235000.00 each. Whats wrong with this picture? :confuse:
When I visited Detroit a couple of years a go and I spoke to a few assembly line workers when I went to a picnic for my nephew. None of them had a boat. Well one did. It was a 10 ft row boat. None had their kids in camp. Yes the had two cars. Most lived in a modest 1200-1500 sq. ft ranch. Two/three kids. . Most of their wives worked full time. None are living in the high life that the media portray. I can't even imagine how they are surviving now. If the southern idiot senators (three stooges + now McCain) have their way, they will all be on unemployment and welfare.
Tell me one vehicle in Hyundia lineup that is better than GM's? I can't think of any
Accent is much better than Aveo Elantra is much better than Cobalt Sonata MAY beat Malibu slightly, but that's a matter of opinion...Sonata offers navi where Malibu doesn't, but Malibu gets better MPGs. Santa Fe is better than Equinox.
There's a definite 3 for you, with a 4th that's a real horse race (unfortunately for them, the 2010 Fusion is about to show them how midsize cars are truly done).
The current generation Sonata was way ahead of the Malibu when it came out, but I'd put the current Malibu ahead of it overall.
The Entourage blows away the Chevy.... Oh that's right, GM doesn't or never had a mini-van worth buying.
The new Genesis on paper anyway looks better than anything offered by Buick and most of what's offered by Cadillac excluding the CTS, but the Genesis is more the size of an STS, basically the price of a CTS yet offers 375 HP and a compelling looking package. I myself would have a hard time spending $40k for a Hyundai but they are really improving their product line top to bottom.
The current generation Sonata was way ahead of the Malibu when it came out, but I'd put the current Malibu ahead of it overall.
Well, I did say that one was close.
The Entourage blows away the Chevy.... Oh that's right, GM doesn't or never had a mini-van worth buying.
That's a tough one, do we count the Traverse as a minivan vs the Entourage, or as a large SUV like the Vera Cruz? Either way, the Traverse is a pretty good vehicle, could go pick-em either way.
Ever notice that at GM the bigger the car the better it is against the competition? :shades:
That's a tough one, do we count the Traverse as a minivan vs the Entourage, or as a large SUV like the Vera Cruz? Either way, the Traverse is a pretty good vehicle, could go pick-em either way.
I'd say the Traverse would compete with the Vera Cruz. But in reality it will probably compete more with its corporate cousins than outside competition. The Traverse does seem like a good vehicle.
When I visited Detroit a couple of years a go and I spoke to a few assembly line workers when I went to a picnic for my nephew. None of them had a boat.
If what you are saying is true, which I would question. Why so many UAW workers file for bankruptcy when the OT is cut off. If they cannot make it on $87k per year they are not living the frugal lifestyle you are trying to get us to believe in. Now when the UAW job goes away and they will, then I can see bankruptcy.
Accent is much better than Aveo Elantra is much better than Cobalt Sonata MAY beat Malibu slightly, but that's a matter of opinion...Sonata offers navi where Malibu doesn't, but Malibu gets better MPGs. Santa Fe is better than Equinox.
Genesis is better than anything GM makes except perhaps CTS.
Meanwhile GM has had Hummer on the auction block since the summer of 08',
Not really; meaning if was an auction they would have sold it for the highest bid they got. GM has had it "For Sale", asking too much for it. I'd guess the value of Hummer has continued to drop.
This is an example of how GM wants reality to be 1 thing, and their slowness to admit they don't control events. The illusion - that you have control - is a problem for many people at the top - exec, or POTUS; because they're isolated and surrounded by people who fawn over them.
Yes the had two cars. Most lived in a modest 1200-1500 sq. ft ranch. Two/three kids. . Most of their wives worked full time. None are living in the high life that the media portray
That isn't bad if all you have is a H.S. diploma, and are working for someone else. Factory operators are in the lower half of the totem-pole. Thinking of our operators (where I work), several live in mobile homes, and a few are single and live in 1-bedroom apts. 2 of them bike rather than the expense of a car. Our operators are Grade 2-4 of a 20-Grade pay-scale.
I think factory work is fine, if that's all you want, and I look at the low pay certainly as an incentive to get some motivation and either start a business (know a few who have) or go back to school.
Factory work may have been a middle-class type job in the 50's - 70's, but that's few and far between these days. The last middle-class factory jobs are fading as the unions shrink. Global labor and competition is seeing to that.
I suspect that given there are more vehicles than licensed drivers, and the number of people who have licenses who don't really drive much, that we're not really going to need many new cars for a while. So sales will stay low, and these auto makers who think sales are going to rebound quickly are again mistaken.
With low sales we only need a B2, not a B3 (or D3).
BTW: I'm happy to see less driving and traffic for many reasons. Too bad it's taking this depression to make people realize they've been living a pretty high life-style (high relative to the majority of the world).
When Portland Opera increased our season ticket price for next year 44%, we gave it up.
We're down to one daily newspaper, eliminated most magazine subscriptions, lowered the thermostat, converted to cable for our 'phone, but the biggest savings was downsizing our waste can. That saved $22 a month. Now, if I can just get her to turn off the lights when she leaves the room and ..........
What I hear and see in the news is that people were going deeper and deeper into debt to live that lifestyle. And many people and banks were basing that on their homes and stocks going up 5-10% per year which is unsustainable.
And GM and Chrysler's business models right now are unsustainable. They can't keep going deeper and deeper into debt, have declining market-share and expect to get out of debt in the future, when they'll still be saddled with paying for all their legacy costs.
Comments
Thanks for getting us back to the crux of the topic. On that note:
Pontiac Torrent Gets the Axe, but G8, Solstice and Vibe Still Alive for Now (Straightline).
And here's an odd one:
"General Motors Corp. has been bumped off its perch as Canada's top-selling auto-maker, marking a historic redrawing of the country's auto hierarchy as buyers fretting about the economy opt for the cheapest car that will fit their needs.
During a month in which total industry sales fell 28%, Chrysler LLC toppled GM in February to become number one. It was the first time since 1949 that GM has been outsold by a rival, industry consultant Dennis DesRosiers said."
GM loses pride of place as Chrysler pulls ahead (Financial Post)
Ford beat GM too btw.
And finally, US auto dealers ask Obama to help stop job losses (Reuters).
GM auditors raise doubts on automaker's viability
GM auditors cite losses, lack of cash flow in raising doubts about its viability
* Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer
* Thursday March 5, 2009, 6:37 am EST
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. says its auditors have raised substantial doubt about the company's ability to continue operations.
The troubled automaker revealed the auditors' concerns in its annual report filed on Thursday.
GM has received $13.4 billion in federal loans as it tries to survive the worst auto sales climate in 27 years. It is seeking a total of $30 billion from the government. During the past three years it has piled up $82 billion in losses, including $30.9 billion in 2008.
GM says in its report that its auditors cited recurring losses from operations, stockholders' deficit and an inability to generate enough cash to meet its obligations in raising substantial doubts about its ability to continue as a going concern.
Regards,
OW
A sudden death is a big loss.
A bed ridden death appears generally to be good riddance from all troubles.
Wow... I never would have realized that an automaker would be dependent on auto sales volume.
Regards,
OW
No kidding, Captain Obvious!
Size would seem to be a big factor. GM is simply going to have to be scaled back to match production with demand. How that happens is the multi-billion dollar question.
Not that it's a GOOD thing, either........
At the end of the day, however, it is what it is. They need to be cut in less than half....now.
Regards,
OW
This would allow the D3 to prove their worthiness by building better products like the Fusion, Lacrosse, and whatever Chrysler could come up with.
If they can't, and still go belly up, then the pieces get sold off and the government can recoup some of their loss by selling the proporties and intellectual rights to others.
But the loans and bonds on these plants don't go away. If they still own the land and plant then they still have to pay taxes to the localities. They have to do basic maintenance to keep the buildings 'salable'.
These costs just keep on eating up GM's revenues every month. In the future GM will likely have a 20% marketshare of a 12 million unit market which is 2.5 million units....not 5 milion units. The extra weight of the loans and bonds cannot be made to go away...unless:
..they default and declare bankruptcy thus stiffing the lenders;
..they somehow convince the lenders to convert the loans and bonds into shares, which have no rights whatsoever :surprise: ;
..they continue to beg the American public for enough money to pay their bills for the intermediate term, such as through 2020, or ask us for the Chinese Solution: one lump sum to pay off all the lenders in exchange for which we all own the company. IOW nationalization.
But they cannot get out from underneath the burden of carrying capacity and indebtedness for building 5 million units.
I might add. IF the legacy cost per vehicle was $1500 when they sold 5 million vehicles. That cost will double if they only sell 2.5 million. The legacy cost IS a fixed number as is the debt and interest on that debt. The D3 in their lack of insight somehow believed they would be selling more and more cars thus cutting that cost per car. All the while hoping that the buyer would not notice cuts in content and quality.
That makes viability with their plan not reachable. No sales, no business.
Regards,
OW
Tomorrow, jobless data will show February will be on par with January. The bleeding continues. This is uncharted territory so they can not restructure fast enough to ward off collapse.
Regards,
OW
GM can't even compete with Hyundai HERE, and you figure the solution is to go compete with them on their home turf?
It's not about products anymore. That needed to happen years ago. I agree with kdh and gagrice. To state what they said in a different way, GM and Chrysler (and every other auto maker) are simply too big for the market now. And car companies with unions can not adjust size quickly. And GM and Chrysler have 2 large problems that others don't 1) they have a huge number of pensioners getting very good benefits. The other manufacturers don't only having gotten large recently. With GM and Chrysler losing market share they have a much higher number of pensioners to support per car sold then the others. 2) GM and Chrysler went into this financial crisis very weak - not having much reserves. This might be analogous to the person getting laid off who has $1,000 in the bank, when experts tell you have 3-6 months of cash available.
SO GM and Chrysler are paying the price for the years of losses they've had.
I agree with the problem of the pensioneers. But to rid themselves of that problem, we talk C11. Problem w/ C11 is, the presumption that car sales tank relative to the rest of the industry. I think that the govenment has, in essence, "put" GM in C11 by giving them the bailout money, only we're not calling it C11, we're calling it a bailout.
My scenario would have cost the government little to no money short term, and afforded the automakers time (24-36 months) to restructure to the market that is available to them, w/o having to make debt payments during that time frame.
Why keep pumping money into them.?
Auction them off in C11, pay the unemployment benefits and retraining programs and right-size the industry. That is the fast way to successfully restructuring the industry. Blow it up and rebuild from scratch. There is far too much excess baggage to evolve into profitability and real corporate value-building in the current company structure.
The current corpserations are starting to smell even before they are cremated!
Regards,
OW
Hardly, they've got a real shot. They've got new models that HAVEN'T been delayed (Fiesta, Fusion), they've already shrunk themselves down to the essentials, and they are fixing it so they're NOT dependent on a large market share to be profitable.
GM has always worshiped market share to the point where profit became a secondary objective. The Cruze is now delayed, who knows about the Volt, , they talk about paring down brands but so far it's all talk: they're still sitting on 8 brands, and MIGHT reduce that to 6 in the near future (Saab is already in bankruptcy and might be gone, but that was forced on GM rather than GM deciding to do it).
And wonder of wonders, GM is still preaching market share, instead of trying to find a way to be profitable regardless of market share.
There's a reason why GM's stock has taken a beating and Fords...well, not as much of a beating. Ford is trading at $1.75, while GM is trading at $1.56. Theoretically GM is a larger company with more assets and a higher market cap.
A new entity must be formed to reinvent the future of our auto manufacturing. No current company is poised to lead that mission.
Regards,
OW
That's the point...its present structure is in flux, and has been even before the recession. It doesn't HAVE a present state because it's been reinventing itself since Mually came on board. Given that, I think they've got a good chance of surviving: they've shown themselves to be a much more flexible, nimble, and adaptable company, and they ARE a leader in some ways. They're leading the way in hybrid technology now, with Fusion spanking Toyota's technology. Their standard ICE engines are looking to leapfrog the competition...the Fiesta looks like it'll get 40 MPG highway, something no one else can match with a pure ICE solution (toyota's little 1.5l doesn't even manage that, I think). Ford's got a lot of success to fall back on, and the public is loving them compared to the Bailout Boys (which sounds like it may soon include Toyota...imagine how a good PR campaign can take advantage of THAT).
GM, on the other hand, has spent its entire existence trying to avoid change.
I agree Ford is reinventing itself. Let's see if the market doesn't make change REAL Quick in the next 2 months. My view is their change rate is not going to cut it when it comes to viability considering the current demand climate. We are not at the bottom yet and Ford is just too big to change fast enough on it's own. Just MHO.
Model Feb 2009 %Chg from Feb 2008 YTD 2009 % Chg from YTD 2008
Ford F - Series PU 23,614 -55.1 48,851 -47.8
Toyota Camry / Solara 20,634 -40.9 41,416 -37.7
Chevrolet Silverado PU 19,788 -55.1 43,775 -45.4
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 18,103 -14.6 37,341 -11.0
Nissan Altima 16,002 -31.5 30,137 -33.0
Honda Accord 15,976 -42.2 32,557 -36.9
Honda Civic 15,687 -34.1 29,885 -33.3
Dodge Ram PU 14,448 -36.2 27,291 -35.9
Honda CR-V 12,370 -21.2 25,513 -19.5
Chevrolet Malibu 11,516 -5.7 20,828 -20.9
Ford Escape 10,090 -28.9 18,450 -27.3
Ford Focus 9,904 -39.2 17,673 -36.7
Jeep Wrangler 9,088 28.2 15,450 16.8
Dodge Caravan 9,003 -18.7 12,222 -36.2
Hyundai Elantra 8,978 33.0 12,285 -0.6
Toyota RAV4 8,398 0.0 16,432 0.0
Chevrolet Cobalt 8,317 -51.0 13,508 -60.6
Pontiac G6 8,126 -51.9 10,594 -65.7
Chrysler Town & Country 8,099 -32.2 12,391 -41.1
Toyota Tacoma PU 7,874 -40.0 15,493 -36.0
Regards,
OW
Sorry, but you're falling into the "market share" trap there (see how much GM brainwashed us?). It doesn't matter how many Fusions Ford sells total. What matters is that A: they sell all of the ones they make, and B: they make a profit on them.
For how many years was the Mazda3 considered the cream of the crop for small cars? Despite the fact that Mazda didn't sell as many of those as Honda sold Civics? And couldn't, because Mazda simply didn't have the manufacturing capacity?
I know..twin turbo SHO is coming. Twin turbo....yeah, that sounds reliable for a family car. It also will cost 40K plus. By the end of the model year it will be apparent Ford is headed in the same direction, the hill just isn't as steep due to the 23 billion Ford borrowed.
How do they plan to ever pay that back? It appears the yearly sales are heading ever downward to under 9 million a year in the USA...I say that because all sales forecasts have been optimistic so far.
There are 1250 Fusions in a 100 mile radius of where I live. They won't need to make any more until the spring of 2010 at the current sales rate. That is better than the 2136 Impalas. Hertz should get a new fleet real cheap next fall.
Maybe they don't want a bailout as they can reorganise and say good bye to unions ,health care and Detroit. :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Meanwhile GM has had Hummer on the auction block since the summer of 08', and is still clinging to their Swedish outfit that has filed for bankruptcy and stop building cars all together. Both of which still have advertising out their btw. :shades:
We have to have two cars, a boat,camp and never say no to our kids.
methinks the party's over but, it's not and if we get out of this mess,we will be in it again.
Did you see the pay off at The Honda Classic and The Nortwest Bank golf tournaments? I wonder if there a Buick Open this year?
A Rod gets $250,000,000.00 to play baseball.Some guy on Opera,gave her and her friend a Bently car a piece@$235000.00 each.
Whats wrong with this picture? :confuse:
Accent is much better than Aveo
Elantra is much better than Cobalt
Sonata MAY beat Malibu slightly, but that's a matter of opinion...Sonata offers navi where Malibu doesn't, but Malibu gets better MPGs.
Santa Fe is better than Equinox.
There's a definite 3 for you, with a 4th that's a real horse race (unfortunately for them, the 2010 Fusion is about to show them how midsize cars are truly done).
The Entourage blows away the Chevy.... Oh that's right, GM doesn't or never had a mini-van worth buying.
The new Genesis on paper anyway looks better than anything offered by Buick and most of what's offered by Cadillac excluding the CTS, but the Genesis is more the size of an STS, basically the price of a CTS yet offers 375 HP and a compelling looking package. I myself would have a hard time spending $40k for a Hyundai but they are really improving their product line top to bottom.
Well, I did say that one was close.
The Entourage blows away the Chevy.... Oh that's right, GM doesn't or never had a mini-van worth buying.
That's a tough one, do we count the Traverse as a minivan vs the Entourage, or as a large SUV like the Vera Cruz? Either way, the Traverse is a pretty good vehicle, could go pick-em either way.
Ever notice that at GM the bigger the car the better it is against the competition? :shades:
I'd say the Traverse would compete with the Vera Cruz. But in reality it will probably compete more with its corporate cousins than outside competition. The Traverse does seem like a good vehicle.
If what you are saying is true, which I would question. Why so many UAW workers file for bankruptcy when the OT is cut off. If they cannot make it on $87k per year they are not living the frugal lifestyle you are trying to get us to believe in. Now when the UAW job goes away and they will, then I can see bankruptcy.
Elantra is much better than Cobalt
Sonata MAY beat Malibu slightly, but that's a matter of opinion...Sonata offers navi where Malibu doesn't, but Malibu gets better MPGs.
Santa Fe is better than Equinox.
Genesis is better than anything GM makes except perhaps CTS.
Not really; meaning if was an auction they would have sold it for the highest bid they got. GM has had it "For Sale", asking too much for it. I'd guess the value of Hummer has continued to drop.
This is an example of how GM wants reality to be 1 thing, and their slowness to admit they don't control events. The illusion - that you have control - is a problem for many people at the top - exec, or POTUS; because they're isolated and surrounded by people who fawn over them.
That isn't bad if all you have is a H.S. diploma, and are working for someone else. Factory operators are in the lower half of the totem-pole. Thinking of our operators (where I work), several live in mobile homes, and a few are single and live in 1-bedroom apts. 2 of them bike rather than the expense of a car. Our operators are Grade 2-4 of a 20-Grade pay-scale.
I think factory work is fine, if that's all you want, and I look at the low pay certainly as an incentive to get some motivation and either start a business (know a few who have) or go back to school.
Factory work may have been a middle-class type job in the 50's - 70's, but that's few and far between these days. The last middle-class factory jobs are fading as the unions shrink. Global labor and competition is seeing to that.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/10/budget.irpt/index.html
I suspect that given there are more vehicles than licensed drivers, and the number of people who have licenses who don't really drive much, that we're not really going to need many new cars for a while. So sales will stay low, and these auto makers who think sales are going to rebound quickly are again mistaken.
With low sales we only need a B2, not a B3 (or D3).
BTW: I'm happy to see less driving and traffic for many reasons. Too bad it's taking this depression to make people realize they've been living a pretty high life-style (high relative to the majority of the world).
We're down to one daily newspaper, eliminated most magazine subscriptions, lowered the thermostat, converted to cable for our 'phone, but the biggest savings was downsizing our waste can. That saved $22 a month. Now, if I can just get her to turn off the lights when she leaves the room and ..........
What I hear and see in the news is that people were going deeper and deeper into debt to live that lifestyle. And many people and banks were basing that on their homes and stocks going up 5-10% per year which is unsustainable.
And GM and Chrysler's business models right now are unsustainable. They can't keep going deeper and deeper into debt, have declining market-share and expect to get out of debt in the future, when they'll still be saddled with paying for all their legacy costs.