Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    they have 44 million more out there than the #2. Gov Granholm of Mich says 3.5 million jobs will be given up if GM and Chrysler go under.
    Where do owners of 80 million GM vehicles get spare parts?
    Why not cancel the stim pkg if losing 3.5 million more jobs is OK?
    The common reason given is that we are in a severe downturn unlike any in my life.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Where do owners of 80 million GM vehicles get spare parts?

    After market parts manufacturers will flourish. May even hire some of the out of work UAW people that are not trouble makers and featherbedders. The current mess in CA with running trucking companies out of business with regulations has been a boon to the people that repair heavy diesel trucks and equipment. It has killed much of the new truck mfg business. As long as people need parts someone will make them. I never bought new parts when I was in High School. Got all of them at the wrecking yard where I worked. Could not afford OEM new stuff.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Gov Granholm of Mich says 3.5 million jobs will be given up if GM and Chrysler go under.

    If you want any unbiased information, I wouldn't listen to people who will tend to benefit or lose from GM and Chrysler going under. So any news from Cerberus, the mayor of Detroit, Michigan and other D3 heavy states, the UAW, and the executives of the D3 has to be checked.

    Around the world? And how many many people will get jobs going to work for other auto manufacturers and suppliers. The same number right? Why? Because the market is going to buy X-number of cars this year, no matter what companies are around. If GM and/or Chrysler fail, people will switch their business to other companies. It happens all the time in industries. The auto industry isn't unique.

    For example: IBM used to be like GM in selling computers. Guess what -they failed in selling PC's. What happened when they failed? People kept buying computers but from new companies like Dell, Gateway, and Emachines.

    Maybe in going bankrupt GM and Chrysler will sell off their plants and operations, and let other people run them under a new management system.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    has really taken up computer building and has achieved much success. They make other electronics besides computers and kept making these while they brushed fully up on computer and printers, etc. But they have really got their plan together and are IMO the best in the bizz.

    I was making the point to say that GM doesn't have the luxury of doing something else while the autobuying public gains confidence in them again. Or has decent enough jobs to buy new cars again. So it's not a direct parallel.

    It just seems to me that I didn't hear from HP as far as computers go, then all of a sudden they're right up in everybody's face with this technology and they produce top-notch stuff.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It just seems to me that I didn't hear from HP as far as computers go, then all of a sudden they're right up in everybody's face with this technology and they produce top-notch stuff.

    HP has come a long ways. I bought my first HP computer in about 1983. It was a huge laptop with separate 3.5 inch floppy drive box. With a small thermal printer it cost $4500. It had 256KB of ram and a small monochrome screen. My son sold it a few years ago at the swap meet for $25 to a collector. It still worked. HP is one of the oldest and most trusted names in Telephone test equipment. Most everyone has owned an HP printer. Buying Compaq gave them a big audience in the business computer realm. They have done well. I don't expect they will need a bailout.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    they have 44 million more out there than the #2. Gov Granholm of Mich says 3.5 million jobs will be given up if GM and Chrysler go under.

    If I was Gov. of Michigan I would be saying the same PR to try and keep as many jobs as possible. That doesn't make the numbers anywhere near true.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Obama Auto Team not impressed with American brands. Looks like the D3 have their work cut out to get any money from this bunch of Foreign car drivers.

    WASHINGTON -- The vehicles owned by the Obama administration's auto team could reflect one reason why Detroit's Big Three automakers are in trouble: The list includes few new American cars.

    Among the eight members named Friday to the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry and the 10 senior policy aides who will assist them in their work, two own American models. Add the Treasury Department's special adviser to the task force and the total jumps to three.

    The Detroit News reviewed public records to discover what many of the task force and staff members drove, but information was not available on all of the officials, and records for some states were not complete.


    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090223/AUTO01/902230327
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Isn't that the whole idea of Chapt 11? To allow a company to operate WHILE it restructures? The banko airlines kept flying and (take note GM) people still kept buying tickets and getting on the planes.

    Oh yes but they won't buy cars from a bankrupt company.

    Forgetting the fact that they wouldn't buy cars from the company BEFORE they went bankrupt, which is the whole reason for the bankruptcy in the first place. :shades:
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    That detnews article is pretty thin. Aren't the Honda's and Acura US-built anyway ? Are the US-badged cars even built in the US ? As for the guy with the Peugeot 505, well, he gets my synpathy. Had it been a 504 I'd have been envious.

    Whole things reads like a cheap, and particularly ineffective, way of moaning about a Democratic administration. Was such an article ever written about the Bush administration fleet ? Surely all these cars are personal purchases (?) Are you now saying that people don't have freedom of choice in America ? If the D3 failed because these few folks bought non-US-badged cars then they truly do deserve to disappear. But that's not the case, as we all know.

    Looking at the cars owned; I'd say you should be glad the new adfministration shjows good sense when it spends its own Dollars............they'll likely do the same when spending yours. The Peugeot 505 guy is the exception that may prove the rule.

    Of course, it's from Detroit News so is just trying to keep up newspaper sales by appealing to D3 workers etc.

    At least your leader has a car - our Prime Minister doesn't even drive.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,687
    >Are you now saying that people don't have freedom of choice in America ?

    Not if you've checked the provisions of some of the handouts in the porkulus bill just passed by the Congress.

    >Of course, it's from Detroit News so is just trying to keep up newspaper sales by appealing to D3 workers etc.

    I don't find that to be true. It's a broad, big city newspaper.

    >Was such an article ever written about the Bush administration fleet ?

    Only negatives were published about the previous president because of the media's dislike, but they missed on the vehicles driven by leaders. Bush was shown many times in his Chevy pickup on the ranch. The current guy does the same things Bush got criticized for and doesn't get criticized. All politics; all the time.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...had a Chrysler 300?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yes he did. Just sold it before coming into office.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I recall reading some article where one of the aspects he didn't like about being President was that he can no longer drive himself anywhere.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    He probably sold the 300C to a fan for a couple hundred thou. He probably knows that Chrysler will not be around long to cover warranty. He did not want the hassle.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Wouldn't you have loved it if he said such a thing? Was more the point that indeed he can't drive for at least four years. I know they auctioned the car as some sort of fundraiser. I don't know if it was a political one or a charity. I know it drew six figures - without the decimal point that you'd normally need to get six figures on one.

    I would think you'd go crazy not being able to drive for 4 or 8 years. Probably why W had the ranch. He could probably at least drive on his own property.

    I wonder what happened to the Mustang that Clinton was restoring when he got elected back in 92? I know his intention was to mothball it until he got back to being able to work on it but I never heard of it after about his first month in office.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....HP is one of the oldest and most trusted names in Telephone test equipment."

    I'll bet you have an old Delcon hanging around, don't you?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....He probably sold the 300C to a fan for a couple hundred thou."

    I believe he traded it in for a Ford Hybrid. It was listed on ebay a couple months ago.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do have a HP 3551 transmission Measuring set in my storage. No one uses them anymore. The digital age sent a lot of expensive test gear into oblivion. May become a collectors item, like GM cars :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Outside advisers to the U.S. Treasury have started lining up the largest bankruptcy loan ever, talking with banks and other lenders about at least $40 billion in financing for General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, in case the two auto makers need it, said several people familiar with the matter.

    The initial discussions call for private banks to provide the financing -- known as a debtor-in-possession, or DIP, loan -- with the government guaranteeing or backstopping the loan. In this scenario, some of the financing would be used to pay back the $17.4 billion the government lent GM and Chrysler late last year.

    Treasury advisers are handling the effort and keeping GM and Chrysler informed of the steps through back-door channels, said the people familiar with the matter. The interplay between the government, auto makers and the markets is proving to be complicated.

    Lenders are reluctant to commit funding to GM or Chrysler for several reasons -- mostly concern they won't get all their money back.


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123535613910745405.html
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    chrysler gives out unlimited free transmission replacements. It's a strategy to keep auto mechanics employed outside of Japanese dealers, while holding down transmission costs at initial sale.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,687
    >chrysler gives out unlimited free transmission replacements

    I thought Honda had the transmission replacements as a regular service item down from the late 90s and currently. ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I try to not look at the markets, at least on a day to day basis, but we (the investing public) certainly don't seem to like what we hear about what's being done about the automakers. Perhaps it's time to Get Plan B Ready
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would say sacrificing GM so the rest will have a chance at survival is the best plan. Just go straight to liquidation. It looks like GM has about $100 billion less in assets than Ford. Anything they have worth selling will be bought and the creditors can be paid off. What is left in the Pension plan should be assessed and pensions downsized to keep the fund sustainable. Of course seeing the mentality of UAW members, they probably would like to bleed it dry in a few years and then cry to Uncle Sam to support them.

    That to me is a Plan B that will work for the Auto Industry as a whole. The suppliers that are needed will survive. And those that are not will go broke. Businesses go broke every day. Why should the Auto Industry be any different?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    "Hello. City Honda. May I help you?"

    "Yes, I'd like to schedule an oil and transmission change for my Accord..."
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, agreed, said that in November...just waiting for the right thing to happen. It's the cheapest way to go in the long run.

    Regards,
    OW
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Many legislators lease their vehicles. He probably turned the Chrysler in early when he switched to the Escape Hybrid.

    He wouldn't have had to exchange the Chrysler if he hadn't criticized Detroit for building "big, gas-guzzling V-8s." Uh, the reason they were building them is because people - including Barack Obama - were buying them.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    "He probably sold the 300C to a fan for a couple hundred thou. He probably knows that Chrysler will not be around long to cover warranty. He did not want the hassle."

    He traded on a Ford Escape Hybrid to be politically correct for the environmental crowd. He won't be doing any self driving for some time. :shades: <<<Guys wearing dark glasses and black suits will be doing the driving for the Pres.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    LOL, a DIP loan? You would HAVE to be a dip to loan any money with these companies as collateral!! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Hey you laugh, but go to ebay, and type in Western Electric, and see what some vaccuum tubes are going for!!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    "Hello. City Honda. May I help you?"

    "Yes, I'd like to schedule an oil and transmission change for my Accord..."


    Oh, you exaggerate. I just go in and every 30K say "Change the transmission fluid. While you're at it change the transmission."......

    Actually all my Accords have been sticks without a it of trouble and in two Odys I did have on tranny go on me. At very least they were quick and it didn't cost me a thing. Still I expect better than 60 K out of a transmission.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • ronvprronvpr Member Posts: 24
    How about doing a little homework before you go mouthing off about what you read in the Alabama Register or Kentucky News. Do you think all of Hondas and Toyotas are made here? LAUGH! More Hondas and Toyotas have been imported from Japan in the last year than ever. In your post you try to make it seem like every Big Three vehicle is imported from Mexico or Brazil. Ask yourself where that Honda or Toyota was engineered and designed? Mostly in Japan with Japanese engineers. Where do most of the parts come from? Mostly Japan. Where do you think the profits are going from the purchase of those said Imports? Japan. They ae not paying taxes here because any idiot would know they all have tax abatements for up to 25 years and the land was given to them for free by the "3 stooges" senetors Shelby, Corker, and McConnel. Look up how much Tennesse is "giving away" to VW. The state (you and I) are paying VW for the roads, utilities, and will have to pay for extra teachers that speak German in the surronding schools for the management of visiting VW employees. On top of that the state is REQUIRED to buy 2500 VW's. It is costing the state (you and I) $106,000 per worker in that factory. And in Washington, those idiots are "re-thinking" loaning money to OUR OWN companies. It's a sad sad day to be an American while our own tax dollars go to support import manufacturers.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, and Toyota just shut down the Corolla line in Van Nuys. Toyota could expect to sell more cars in the U.S. if it keeps its U.S workers employed. Unemployed people don't buy much of anything.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    That says it all..good factual information to read, understand, & employ when buying a foreign car. Thank you.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    We need a U.S. manufacturing base. This depression will prove that before it ends.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/25/magazines/fortune/bear_market_experts.fortune/in- dex.htm
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    I don't even know where to begin to respond to your rant as you're all over the place and hardly any of it applies to what I posted. Your tirade was all about quality of Honda transmissions and I was posting my own personal experiences.

    How about doing a little homework before you go mouthing off about what you read in the Alabama Register or Kentucky News. Do you think all of Hondas and Toyotas are made here?

    LOL, what makes you think I'm from Ala or Ky? And no I don't think most Hondas or Toyotas are made here, but I do look to see where the specific one I purchased is from.

    In your post you try to make it seem like every Big Three vehicle is imported from Mexico or Brazil.

    Sorry you took my post the wrong way. But I'd bet as long as it says Ford on the front, to you, it wouldn't matter where it was assembled, Detroit or Brazil, doesn't matter does it.

    Where do you think the profits are going from the purchase of those said Imports? Japan. They ae not paying taxes here because any idiot would know they all have tax abatements for up to 25 years and the land was given to them for free by the "3 stooges" senetors Shelby, Corker, and McConnel. Look up how much Tennesse is "giving away" to VW.

    And that's my fault? States give huge tax breaks to many companies, even American ones. Read your newspaper. Any profit goes to keep the company going strong, How much did GM pay in taxes over the last few years? Oh wait, they didn't make any profit. How come? Because bad Americans like me refuse to spend my hard earned dollars on crappy products.

    And in Washington, those idiots are "re-thinking" loaning money to OUR OWN companies. It's a sad sad day to be an American while our own tax dollars go to support import manufacturers.

    Well we almost agree on this one. It's a sad day to be an American while our tax dollars go to support failing companies like GM, Chrysler, and the banks that caused this mess.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    GM was losing money even when the economy was good. And during those 4 years GM did nothing much to change, instead spending away, until they were broke, and begging for $.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/25/news/companies/auto_outlook/index.htm?postversio- n=2009022514

    i certainly don't wan to support a company like GM. Let them fold and let some other entrepeneur come in and pick up the good pieces.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Where do most of the parts come from? Mostly Japan.

    The Toyota Sienna is on the top 10 list of most-American vehicles sold in the U.S., with more than 80% of its parts sourced from here. It is built in Kentucky. Very few domestic vehicles are more American than the Sienna, and none exceeds 85% in domestic content IIRC. You can look it up - the exact numbers are available, I am just going by memory.

    Every dealer selling Toyotas in the U.S. is paying state sales tax on the sale of every car, and sales tax from car sales makes up more than 50% of all state sales tax received in many places.

    Certainly, no school district anywhere will have to employ German-speaking teachers just because VW sets up shop.

    It sounds like you were very angry when you wrote this post, so I won't respond to any of your other points, but when you are a little cooler you may wish to consider the fact that the domestics' whole manufacturing agenda of the last decade at least has been to offshore their production, and they will continue to do so, mark my words. Meanwhile, foreign automakers are coming here and providing more jobs for Americans.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    I had a position that allowed me to visit a Japanese plant here in the U.S. Toyota/Honda have done one heck of a PR campaign in having us believe they are American companies and are here to help us. After visiting the plant I immediately noticed the tooling was Japanese, the support for the tooling (good paying jobs) were mostly Japanese and the parts that support the plant were Japanese, along with the parts to support the tooling were Japanese. I have a feeling it is the same way for the new Korean and German car manufacturing plants that have recently landed here in the U.S. The Americans were on the line doing the grunt work. Don't get all giddy over these forgein companies until you know the whole story.. :surprise:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Every dealer selling Toyotas in the U.S. is paying state sales tax on the sale of every car, and sales tax from car sales makes up more than 50% of all state sales tax received in many places."

    Ummmm.......wouldn't that be every PERSON BUYING, instead of dealer selling???
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agreed. We have lost the manufacturing base and need to get it back. This speaks to the quick destruction of the past disasters and a new birth to a high-level industry.

    Let go of the past as fast as we can.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The point is the US lost it's edge long ago. Time to hack off the dead limbs and grow anew, don't you think?

    NOW! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Every dealer selling Toyotas in the U.S. is paying state sales tax on the sale of every car, and sales tax from car sales makes up more than 50% of all state sales tax received in many places.

    And let's not forget the federal income tax and social security tax that is paid by the worker's salary, this allows them to pay the property tax on their house, and for most states there is also income tax that is paid.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,687
    >u may wish to consider the fact that the domestics' whole manufacturing agenda of the last decade at least has been to offshore their production, and they will continue to do so, mark my words.

    I understand what you are saying. I think there's another side to the problem and I would describe it that "the domestics' whole manufacturing agenda of the last decade at least has been to reduce their payments and obligation to the UAW costs of using union labor and having union retirees."

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...Maybe if our society turns socialist enough, we'll end up with a Joseph Stalin, who though he killed 30 million people, he was rather effective."

    Effective? Effective at what? I hope you're not serious, because if you are it reflects very poorly on your judgment and credibility.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    "...Maybe if our society turns socialist enough, we'll end up with a Joseph Stalin, who though he killed 30 million people, he was rather effective."

    Effective? Effective at what? I hope you're not serious, because if you are it reflects very poorly on your judgment and credibility.


    Apart from setting records for cruelty, insensitivity and delusional paranoia, he also managed to drag Russia into the 20th Century, something which was sorely overdue.

    To be honest, if you look at it from the right slant, if it wasn't for him we might not have today's car industry: you know how many technical advances came from the Cold War that filtered down to automobiles? GPS, suspension refinements, strong and lightweight chassis components, among other things.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Where do most of the parts come from? Mostly Japan.

    The Toyota Sienna is on the top 10 list of most-American vehicles sold in the U.S., with more than 80% of its parts sourced from here. It is built in Kentucky.

    The Sienna is their poster child.

    This is a charade. Transplant parts are mostly from transplant suppliers. A few Americans hold the lower scale jobs at these suppliers. Hi value, compact components come over in boats and planes. Money and soybeans goes back on the would be empty boat.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Got a link for the part about the state of TN being required to buy 2500 VWs?

    When I search, I only find stuff like "more than 43000 people applied for 2500 production jobs". Nothing about selling 2500 VW to the state or to the city of Chattanooga.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it is sour grapes that VW did not get sucked into Michigan. If they have that kind of response they should get a good workforce. In the oil field I worked with mostly people from the South. I would rate them as productive as any other group. Those that think the Midwest has superior beings populating their states are delusional. There are good and bad in every state in the Union. Is that plant due to open on schedule. I went and looked at the Jetta Sportwagen. I could be interested in the diesel. Around here you have to order them and wait. They are gone as soon as they hit the ground. Most are sold before they arrive. Another American success story in the making. Without a bailout.

    The incentives are no where near the $1 billion VW is spending in TN to build the plant.

    &#147;It&#146;s competitive with what other states are offering,&#148; Gov. Bredesen told reporters of tax, training and development incentives after the German auto manufacturer&#146;s announcement it is building the new plant at Enterprise South industrial park. &#147;I don&#146;t have a dollar figure to put on it right now.&#148;

    But he noted that each of the 2,000 manufacturing jobs is expected to generate an additional six to seven jobs from employers.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,687
    >But he noted that each of the 2,000 manufacturing jobs is expected to generate an additional six to seven jobs from employers.

    I have to wonder if that's like the projections heard before. But many of those are trivial little things from waitresses at greasy spoons near the plant to additional barbers and hairstylists because of people needing additional hair care. Maybe they're counting jobs NOT lost like the jobs in the stimulus bills as jobs retained.

    Just don't buy that short of the jobs created (or not lost) during the construction of the plant. Gotta be lots of construction jobs in that.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Effective? Effective at what?

    Well I've always read a lot about the 1930's and 1940's. The societies that were run by dictatorship were the ones that came from the brink of collapse, and thru force of will of 1 person achieved miracles, though at an immoral and high cost. They were run sort of like an ant colony. People were worked to death and lives were sacrificed for societal good. Any dissent was squashed.
    In a democracy ideas are often debated for months, while in a dictatorship the decision is made on the first day many times, and the project is almost complete, before the democracy gets their vote done.

    Now to bring that to autos, consider whether you want a car-czar or some inter-department group trying to advise the auto industry, with lobbyists flitting around DC schmoozing the group's members. One of the things that is hobbling the TARP program with the banks is that the banks are getting advice from multiple different federal agencies, sometimes with conflicting advice.

    But to be clear, I don't like socialism, and I don't want a Joseph Stalin running the country. But I do think that if we continue our track towards socialism - with the government making all our decisions for us - then we are empowering the government to the point where they will be like a dictator to us. Now if you say we never put people in the Presidency with a lot of personal issues, I answer that with - Richard Nixon.
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