I was thinking the same thing. Working every Sunday at a cost of $81000 in OT alone on a day when little or nothing is being done is simply horrible management as bad as the Job Bank program.
Now that story is an unsolicited indictment of what's wrong in Detroit.
While technically, you're right about the skill level, I believe there comes a great RESPONSIBILITY with the privelege of maneuvering a 10,000 pound machine with 5,000 pounds of stock, equipment, etc. around a warehouse where other people are walking around and working.
If that were the basis for pay then a lot of enlisted men in the armed forces would be making $500K+, as they might have an accident with a tank, not secure missiles tightly in the weapons magazine, or close the hatches properly on a submarine. Or the marine guards at an embassy could start a war by firing on protesters at a gate. There are plenty of jobs that are dirty and dangerous, and have a lot of responsibility and don't pay much. Running a fork-truck in a factory doesn't quite rank up there, as you're relatively safe and comfortable (being inside), and going home each night at a regular time.
People who work in Alaska, or linemen even in NH work all sorts of weird hours in the worst weather, and these sorts of things is what gets people extra pay.
".....Running a fork-truck in a factory doesn't quite rank up there, as you're relatively safe and comfortable (being inside), and going home each night at a regular time."
Hey, as long as you're comfortable having them tool around you in one. I, for one, wouldn't appreciate having a fork run into my shin.
I STILL say they must be as responsible as someone driving a tractor trailer.
I, for one, wouldn't appreciate having a fork run into my shin.
How about a diesel engine dropped on your head. One of the Teamsters in Prudhoe did that and killed a fellow worker. Being high paid Union does not prevent accidents or carelessness. It seems he was fired from the job. I think there was talk of involuntary manslaughter charges.
I would say that Delphi would not be in Chapter 11 today. If they were not forced by GM to have the crazy UAW contracts. Who will bail them out? A lot of good it will do to bail out the D3 if the parts suppliers all go belly up.
Being high paid Union does not prevent accidents or carelessness. It seems he was fired from the job. I think there was talk of involuntary manslaughter charges.
I agree, having grown up around the steel mills, it wasn't unusual for a few USW workers to die in work related accidents every year. Like many occupations, steel making is dangerous work and all it takes is a someone not paying attention at the wrong time.
Ford has not requested any bailout money so far. Apparently, they have had better management then GM or Chrysler.
Ford Executive VP, Mark Sheilds was on an MSNBC news program this morning. When host asked Mark whether the Ford Fusion Hybrid might some day be built in the US, Mark skirted the issue by saying that all engineering for the Fusion was done in the US.
If new generation of Fusions and upcoming new Taurus are "truly" superior to Accords and Camrys, then buyers of the Japanese brands may start to migrate to Ford. The "truly" part will take 3-5 years to prove.
Re import buyers finding out their cars not as good as "hyped up" to be. That depends on the perspective they have on cars they have owned. If someone has bought/owned 2 or more vehicles, one foreign and one American, at the same time over 10, 20, 30 years, their perspective is certainly more valuable then someone that only owned one brand over 10, 20, 30 years. That perspective is further enhanced if one has owned many American and many foreign brands.
Having experience with "only" one car company is like being a virgin.
Re import buyers finding out their cars not as good as "hyped up" to be.
From 1964 to 1984 I bought 6 new imports and 2 domestics. 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser Lots of engine failures until sold with 50k miles 1967 VW Bug could not keep warm in Alaska 1970 Datsun PU truck. Absolutely perfect NO problems. 1973 Subaru coupe. What a worthless POC that was. I would not look at a Subaru for 20 years after that experience. Horrible dealer in Alaska. 1974 Dodge Van, ran good for 104k miles though it used a quart of oil every 500 miles. 1976 Datsun PU Truck. A problematic truck that would not start in the cold. Only kept it 2 years. 1978 Honda Accord, In shop more than at home A total POC. 1984 Ford Bronco. I loved that truck and it never gave me any trouble.
Ford Executive VP, Mark Sheilds was on an MSNBC news program this morning. When host asked Mark whether the Ford Fusion Hybrid might some day be built in the US, Mark skirted the issue by saying that all engineering for the Fusion was done in the US.
I love it how the press asks loaded questions hoping to get a stupid response back. The liberal press causes half if not more of our problems.
"Ford Executive VP, Mark Sheilds was on an MSNBC news program this morning. When host asked Mark whether the Ford Fusion Hybrid might some day be built in the US, Mark skirted the issue by saying that all engineering for the Fusion was done in the US."
I love it how the press asks loaded questions hoping to get a stupid response back. The liberal press causes half if not more of our problems.
Uhh, that seems like a perfectly valid question you know. Especially when people are worried about creating American jobs and stimulating the American economy.
Of course, it was also correct for Mark to note that all the engineering was done here, rather than say, Ford Europe. He doesn't want to come right out and say that it won't create American manufacturing jobs, but it's a perfectly valid question to ask...be even more valid if someone asked GM and Chrysler that stuff. Be yet MORE valid if GM and Chrysler had any new models coming out. :shades:
Maybe things have changed, but when I worked in a factory/warehouse for a summer job in the 1980s (not in the automotive industry), the forklift driver position was a coveted one. It seemed as though management had no problem getting the best workers in that position, because it was something that many of them aspired to do.
I love it how the press asks loaded questions hoping to get a stupid response back. The liberal press causes half if not more of our problems.
I agree it was a totally loaded question to embarrass Ford. The truth is Ford has tried to automate factories in the USA and were shot down by the UAW. So why would Ford expand here with the UAW wanting to tear them down every chance they get?
We should push for more factories in Mexico to draw back a few million illegals. I forgot they are potential votes for the ACORNs to sign up.
Our economy will be bad until we spend our way out of this? the new golden word is confidence? No, we can't only borrow, spend, or tax our way out of this mess. All the chips need to fall. The prepared will clean up the wreckage. The careless will be the wreckage. Do we want our largest domestic car company to be a big part of the wreckage? Look at the $165 million in bonuses that AIG is giving in order to keep top talent. The D3 have their share of talent. The oil companies, oil empires, and toxic asset creators and holders are getting bailouts in the hundreds of billions, and they have created the wreckage that now keeps many from buying a new car or recently affording the gas for one. Stupid congress poked GM for using their corporate jet that they bought from their own subsidiary. Yes, GM makes corporate jets (SAAB) and used to make the engines (Alllison) back when they got it. Now the corp jet industry has also been killed off by morons in congress creating a stigma. I heard 60-70,000 US jobs were lost in the biz jet industry since congress opened their mouths.
Can you believe we were told to rally around the fact that the Iraqi war was costing $10 billion a month. Americans were outraged and changed our entire way of governing. We came to a consensus that our country sucked. We (US) have lost $12 Trillion of our net worth in a year now. That is 1200 months of what they said the Iraq war costs. Now, GM wants 2 months worth of that and maybe even up to 5 or 6 months worth of the war's cost in loans and we all rally around to say no. Some wall st. firm just gave out 4.3 billion in bonuses for their top 696 people who screwed us all. Let me remind us all that the average house in America can't be bought on transplant wages. If we can't hang on to good middle class jobs, we will become like the close to 45% of America that is looking to vote in someone who wants us dependent on the gov for a handout, rather than on our ability to work hard.
Do we want our largest domestic car company to be a big part of the wreckage?
It already is.
Look at the $165 million in bonuses that AIG is giving in order to keep top talent.
These "talented" guys were so talented they knew how to completely crash the economy.
Stupid congress poked GM for using their corporate jet that they bought from their own subsidiary. Yes, GM makes corporate jets (SAAB)
GM only owned the automotive division of Saab...you've been watching too many "Born from jets" commercials without reading the fine print. The Saab aircraft manufacturer was the original owner of the Saab automotive division before selling it to GM. Well, technically, the Saab Group owned the automotive AND aircraft divisions and sold the auto division to GM, but the group started as an aircraft company.
Maybe "Oscar" is a skilled tradesman. He probably works between 70-80 hours a week to get that pay and nice house in Holly. Most likely 7 days also. How many Office execs would give up their "golf Satursays" or Football Sundays to be at work? Like I said before, get you facts straight.
He is a Forklift operator for goodness sakes. Just a step up from stock boy. I got my facts straight. Oscar went into deep debt based on OT. When the OT was gone he loses his house, cars and toys. What is to know other than he was overpaid. And undereducated. A victim of our school system and a Union that just keeps extorting more from their employers. No problem until they come begging the tax payer to maintain their opulent lifestyles. Oscar is just one example of the UAW mentality that is shared by the GM executives. They all think they are more important than they really are. Let GM fail.
I tried doing the math, from the one bit of data that said OT has been cut an average of 5 hours per week, costing the typical employee $10,000 gross per year. Well, doing the math, that's $10K/(5 hours * 52 weeks)=$38.46/hr. Or in base pay, 25.64.
So for an "average" guy making $25.64/hr to get to $103K per year, he'd have to work about 64.8 hours per week. And that's just assuming 1.5x OT for anything over 40 hours for the week, and not taking into account that some situations might call for double-time. And in some jobs, they give you OT for working anything over 8 hours in a day, regardless of whether or not you actually hit 40 for the week.
So chances are, it took considerably less than 64.8 hours per week for this guy to hit $103K.
I wonder how hard it would be to re-write the contract so that you don't get time and a half for OT? I got re-classified back in 2001, where instead of getting 1.5x, I just got my regular pay. However, to compensate, they did give me a 10% raise.
In the long run, it probably worked out, because they don't care nearly as much if I go into overtime. When I got 1.5x, they'd try to do everything in their power to get out of it, like making me take a long lunch, go home early, or whatever. And then the kitty litter would hit the fan, because some emergency would often come up when I wasn't there, and the people who were couldn't deal with it! :sick:
One thing they really need to start doing is teach financial skills in high school. You'd think it would be common sense, but if someone has to declare bankruptcy because their income drops from $103K to $87K, and they managed to rack up $469K in debt, evidently that sense ain't so common!
I guess that old saying that with great wealth comes great responsibility rings true here. Now, while many wouldn't consider $87K or $103K per year to be "wealthy", it can still get you in trouble if you don't know how to handle it. Sorta like those lottery winners you read about who are bankrupt 5 years later.
One thing they really need to start doing is teach financial skills in high school.
That would be easy. It would be 5 one-hour course/sessions with simple to understand rules such as: - Do without until you have cash to pay for it. - Only loan to ever have in your life is a mortgage on primary residence with one- quarter to one-third down. - Use cash to pay for everyday needs groceries, clothing, gasoline, etc., - Bigger cost items ok to use credit card but "MUST" pay off balance in full each month, only one credit card. - Save, save, save - build up cash reserves to buy car (used is sufficient until later in life to buy new), furniture, appliances, etc., build up to and always have 2 year cushion to pay expenses if job lost, have savings for unexpected expenses/repairs on house/car - Healthy lifestyle from teens to senior, have/buy health insurance
End of lesson.
Maybe D3 would be viable today if above formula had been in use for last 2-3 decades. No loans to them would be needed. Folks would be using cash to buy new cars.
Sorta like those lottery winners you read about who are bankrupt 5 years later.
You have nailed the situation perfectly. You cannot give a person without any clue about finances a large sum of money and not cause him grief. While I am sure there are UAW members that smartly saved that OT for their retirement. The BK rate among UAW members does not reflect a high percentage with that kind of common sense.
I know guys that made $150K building the Alaska Oil Pipeline. Their hourly was under $20. So you know they put in a lot of hours. 12 weeks straight 16 hours per day was common. Many went back to TX & OK and paid cash for a nice home. Many pissed it away in the bars.
Maybe it's no coincidence such ideals are never taught in school...too much profit to be made in their absence...
At a minimum, there should be something like a mandatory one quarter personal finance class in high school. I bet the banks and junk sellers would lobby against it...who really controls society...
The pipeline stories I liked were the ones where the guys slaved away and socked a bunch of dough back home.
Two long hard years later they get home and find the missus took off with the cash. :shades:
The guys who had it figured out used their weeks off to go boar hunting in Yugoslavia. I guess it depends on whether you want a wad of cash in the bank in your 70s and 80s or a wad of memories.
This was interesting:
"The state of Michigan, which competed against a number of other states for the Daimler facility and has lost hundreds of thousands of auto jobs in recent years, considers nabbing the German hybrid subsidiary a huge get as it tries to leverage its technical and engineering resources to become a center for hybrid and electric-vehicle technology."
It would probably be a safe bet if they did not do any manufacturing in Michigan. Property is DIRT cheap. I read about whole neighborhoods where houses are selling for $7500 each. I could buy a 100 homes if I sold my place. Make a real nice gated neighborhood. You would probably have to patrol the perimeter and have 10 foot walls with broken glass bottles imbedded in the concrete. :shades:
Just pulled up Zillow. First neighborhood I zoomed in on have homes for $700. That is $700 for a 3 BR 2 Bath home with a lot. Daimler should be able to buy the whole state and kick all the UAW workers out. :shades:
An article in USA Today, that I saw yesterday, detailed a list of foreign banks that got TARP money from the $170 Billion that was given to AIG.
Two German and two French owned banks got over $34 Billion dollars combined as a gift from all of us American taxpayers late last year. There were many more foreign banks on the list.
We, not knowing this, begrudge our own comrades in arms, a small fraction of that amount to keep the most important US manufacturing industry in a survival mode.
Not suprising, because I have also heard on here how we complain about paying taxes to schools if we don't have kids going there ourselves. But if there is a war, like in Afghanistan, who will have sons to send? Imagine that. Getting to choose between sending a son to fight for our country and having to pay taxes to a school if you have no son? And those who chose the latter are complaining.
Personally, I think America has gone soft. Everyone seems to only be looking at themselves and how to get something for nothing. No one seems willing to cooperate or compromise and give a bit to get a deal. Washington is dominated by polarized politicians. There are few moderates any more in either party, so all the republicans and democrats do is play "pin the rose" with each other while the country gets angry, frustrated and begins to spiral toward a potential repeat of the Roman and Greek empires. We cover the big Wall Street interests while manufacturing goes down the tube meaning middle class America takes more hits on decent paying jobs. A nation dominated by haves and have nots will not be successful long term any more than pat black and white answers will solve any complicated problems we have. I think we all need to wake up and start thinking about our kids futures instead of our own individual selfish interests and views. Enough of the left and right wing media pundits and blowhards, let's get back to when we worked together as a country.
As for the political parties, when is the last time the party not in control has ever offered realistic alternatives? All they do is take cheap shots and focus on Madison Avenue sound bites. The Dems did it while Bush was in office and the Republicans are doing it now. Truth is, both parties have become impotent.
PS - for the retired people on this forum, remember that as jobs tank so do the taxes and corporate revenues that cover your pensions and health programs. You may not feel it as hard today as the people losing their jobs or seeing lowered incomes, but if our industry keeps tanking you're going to end up getting hit as well.
That is a great story. And for someone on a small retirement a golden opportunity. These places always exist. Just not as massive as Detroit. If I was young like Rocky I would be in there making a place for the future with a good potential for profit. If Detroit can be taken back from the liberal Chicago type city government it can once again become a great city. It would be worth a day time drive through those subdivisions to do an assessment. $100 will not get you hooked up to cable in San Diego. They bought a lot ready to plant corn, potatoes and veggies. Wow,
As for the political parties, when is the last time the party not in control has ever offered realistic alternatives? All they do is take cheap shots and focus on Madison Avenue sound bites. The Dems did it while Bush was in office and the Republicans are doing it now. Truth is, both parties have become impotent.
If I remember correctly, Bush2 did offer bailout to D3 last Nov/Dec after the Democrat controlled Congress was set to do nothing. Yes, some say Bush2 merely kicked the can down the road, but the billions were desperately needed by GM and Chrysler by the end of Dec to avoid bankruptcy.
Nothing wrong with loyal opposition from party out of power to party (Dem) that is in power. Seems like Dems are notorious for cheap shots and play dirty to extent to almost be treasonous such as when Sen Harry Reid declared the Iraq war was lost. Do not recall any Repubs being treasonous when Bill Clinton waged war in Bosnia. Dems never offered any viable plans for Iraq. They, including Obama, said that Surge would never work and were hoping for Iraq defeat to hang on Bush.
Obama should support the D3 (with loans) more so than the billions he and Dems will waste on pork and unnecessary so-called stimulus.
I believe it was recognized from the very beginning by the people doing it that the original TARP payouts to AIG would be made to avoid a collapse of the global economy. They knew all too well that AIG was a multi-national doing business with a number of foreign banks, and being in their debt as a result. The payouts to foreign banks were no surprise, believe me.
They are now proposing strict new regulation of the whole industry, talk about closing the barn door after the horse has run off, but still it is to me the most important part of the whole bank rescue package, and I profoundly hope they get it right.
I have to admit I am occasionally swayed by the argument that compared to the masses of cash we are handing out continually to the banks, the $16 bilion GM wants is a pittance. Maybe we should just let them have it to burn, I dunno. Just whatever you do Obama, don't insult our intelligence by calling it a loan. This money is gone forever the minute the check is cut.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Given this AIG / big 4 car companies situation, here is one practical solution.
1. Give the INXS of 1,000,000 dollars per person bonuses in big 4 products they can not sell (like 50 Saturns or whatever is the dog each's universe) and at MSRP +.
2. Then require a 90% CASH tax for the FORDS, GM'S Chysler's (full value) !!!! What they wants to do with 50 Saturns (or whatever) will be up to of course them, then.
If the company goes under, how will we live without Hemi V8s, the Grand Caravan (the vehicle that started the minivan segment), the Viper and the the iconic Jeep Wrangler?
Putting aside all the hullaballoo people are making about these automaker's impending bankruptcy, don't you think the Jeep brand would survive intact, in someone else's hands? I am pretty confident we will still have Wranglers in the future, perhaps even the Grand Cherokee, although it seems to me its time has passed.
Now the Grand Caravan I wouldn't miss. And the Viper is more of an oddity than a lustworthy model to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"The U.S. Treasury Department Thursday extended support to the auto industry's financially teetering supplier base, saying it will extend $5 billion in loan support that will be channeled through major automakers.
The Treasury Department will guarantee payment of receivables for components supplied to automakers."
A reporter is looking to speak to consumers who purchased a larger vehicle but had considered a smaller vehicle when gas prices were high. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 19, 2009.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I also know that Citi is making a profit and is expecting to start repaying the loans. I know AIG is probably going to be broken up and the good pieces sold to repay the loans. I don't see where GM or Chrysler are near making a profit, or have any non-dream idea of how to get profitable ( I don't see anyway without cutting all their obligations thru BK).
Therefore I see bank/AIG money as being recoverable, while GM and Chrysler, and maybe Ford next year will continue to lose money year after year, with no end in sight.
Tell your CEO to insist the new D2 make only efficient cars....not stand on the side of a tax hike to prop up $4.00/gal gas so consumers are forced to buy efficient cars.
Rather, outlaw the inefficient production of the guzzlers. Period, the end.
Toyota builds some of the biggest gas guzzlers on the market. They did not want to lose out on that segment. Telling a company what to build will not change the mindset of the buyer. The problem is the D3 failed to see the value in smaller highly efficient cars until they got beat up by the imports. They also have carried a millstone around that will not go away without something drastic happening. Our throwing money at the D3 will not remove that millstone in the form of legacy costs. The guy buying a new car does not want $1500 to $4500 added onto the price to pay UAW retirees healthcare. It is not the responsibility of the tax payer either. The D3 made the deal with the UAW, they need to work it out or get out of the auto business.
Rather, outlaw the inefficient production of the guzzlers. Period, the end.
Efforts to raise the CAFE standards have been ongoing since... well, a long time. It must have taken 25 years to get the latest increases past the AAA, D3, oil companies and other lobbying outfits.
The problem is the D3 failed to see the value in smaller highly efficient cars until they got beat up by the imports.
Which time? The 60s, when VW came over and beat them up? The 70s and 80s when Honda, Toyota, and Nissan came and beat them up? or the 90s and 00s when Hyundai and Ford came and beat up on the Bailout Boys (GM and Chrysler)?
Or will it be the 10s, when Geely and Chery come and beat up on GM and Chrysler perhaps?
Anyway, how will we live without Chrysler? Answer: "probably without losing a wink of sleep."
Wasn''t the original Chrysler model introduced in 55 or 56? Think that the original was better proportioned than the big-finned 57.
Many police and municipal bodies apparently find that the 300 and Charger fit their needs more so than the fwd offerings of Ford and Chevy (Fusion, Impala). Seems like this part of Chrysler could be viable. Police, municipalities of course still like and use the rwd full-size Ford/Mercury.
Dodge pickup, Jeep and minivans should also do well. The rest of their lineup should fade away. Don't know where Chrylser hybrid and/or electic program is with regard to competition.
Comments
Typical Ma Bell response.
If you are referring to work being performed on OT, and people dragging their feet to get OT, I agree, but that is a side subject to this.
Now that story is an unsolicited indictment of what's wrong in Detroit.
If that were the basis for pay then a lot of enlisted men in the armed forces would be making $500K+, as they might have an accident with a tank, not secure missiles tightly in the weapons magazine, or close the hatches properly on a submarine. Or the marine guards at an embassy could start a war by firing on protesters at a gate. There are plenty of jobs that are dirty and dangerous, and have a lot of responsibility and don't pay much. Running a fork-truck in a factory doesn't quite rank up there, as you're relatively safe and comfortable (being inside), and going home each night at a regular time.
People who work in Alaska, or linemen even in NH work all sorts of weird hours in the worst weather, and these sorts of things is what gets people extra pay.
Hey, as long as you're comfortable having them tool around you in one. I, for one, wouldn't appreciate having a fork run into my shin.
I STILL say they must be as responsible as someone driving a tractor trailer.
How about a diesel engine dropped on your head. One of the Teamsters in Prudhoe did that and killed a fellow worker. Being high paid Union does not prevent accidents or carelessness. It seems he was fired from the job. I think there was talk of involuntary manslaughter charges.
I would say that Delphi would not be in Chapter 11 today. If they were not forced by GM to have the crazy UAW contracts. Who will bail them out? A lot of good it will do to bail out the D3 if the parts suppliers all go belly up.
From a fork truck??? OW!!! OW!!!
Talk has been that the suppliers are looking for their own bailout.
I agree, having grown up around the steel mills, it wasn't unusual for a few USW workers to die in work related accidents every year. Like many occupations, steel making is dangerous work and all it takes is a someone not paying attention at the wrong time.
Ford Executive VP, Mark Sheilds was on an MSNBC news program this morning. When host asked Mark whether the Ford Fusion Hybrid might some day be built in the US, Mark skirted the issue by saying that all engineering for the Fusion was done in the US.
If new generation of Fusions and upcoming new Taurus are "truly" superior to Accords and Camrys, then buyers of the Japanese brands may start to migrate to Ford. The "truly" part will take 3-5 years to prove.
Having experience with "only" one car company is like being a virgin.
Is this post trying to say Lemko doesn't know anything about foreign cars' efficacy if he hasn't owned one? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't see any comments about not supporting US car makers in the coverage of the 5000 people in Cincinnati on Sunday.
Enquirer
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
From 1964 to 1984 I bought 6 new imports and 2 domestics.
1964 Toyota Land Cruiser Lots of engine failures until sold with 50k miles
1967 VW Bug could not keep warm in Alaska
1970 Datsun PU truck. Absolutely perfect NO problems.
1973 Subaru coupe. What a worthless POC that was. I would not look at a Subaru for 20 years after that experience. Horrible dealer in Alaska.
1974 Dodge Van, ran good for 104k miles though it used a quart of oil every 500 miles.
1976 Datsun PU Truck. A problematic truck that would not start in the cold. Only kept it 2 years.
1978 Honda Accord, In shop more than at home A total POC.
1984 Ford Bronco. I loved that truck and it never gave me any trouble.
I love it how the press asks loaded questions hoping to get a stupid response back. The liberal press causes half if not more of our problems.
I love it how the press asks loaded questions hoping to get a stupid response back. The liberal press causes half if not more of our problems.
Uhh, that seems like a perfectly valid question you know. Especially when people are worried about creating American jobs and stimulating the American economy.
Of course, it was also correct for Mark to note that all the engineering was done here, rather than say, Ford Europe. He doesn't want to come right out and say that it won't create American manufacturing jobs, but it's a perfectly valid question to ask...be even more valid if someone asked GM and Chrysler that stuff. Be yet MORE valid if GM and Chrysler had any new models coming out. :shades:
I agree it was a totally loaded question to embarrass Ford. The truth is Ford has tried to automate factories in the USA and were shot down by the UAW. So why would Ford expand here with the UAW wanting to tear them down every chance they get?
We should push for more factories in Mexico to draw back a few million illegals. I forgot they are potential votes for the ACORNs to sign up.
No, we can't only borrow, spend, or tax our way out of this mess. All the chips need to fall. The prepared will clean up the wreckage. The careless will be the wreckage. Do we want our largest domestic car company to be a big part of the wreckage? Look at the $165 million in bonuses that AIG is giving in order to keep top talent. The D3 have their share of talent. The oil companies, oil empires, and toxic asset creators and holders are getting bailouts in the hundreds of billions, and they have created the wreckage that now keeps many from buying a new car or recently affording the gas for one. Stupid congress poked GM for using their corporate jet that they bought from their own subsidiary. Yes, GM makes corporate jets (SAAB) and used to make the engines (Alllison) back when they got it. Now the corp jet industry has also been killed off by morons in congress creating a stigma. I heard 60-70,000 US jobs were lost in the biz jet industry since congress opened their mouths.
Can you believe we were told to rally around the fact that the Iraqi war was costing $10 billion a month. Americans were outraged and changed our entire way of governing. We came to a consensus that our country sucked. We (US) have lost $12 Trillion of our net worth in a year now. That is 1200 months of what they said the Iraq war costs. Now, GM wants 2 months worth of that and maybe even up to 5 or 6 months worth of the war's cost in loans and we all rally around to say no. Some wall st. firm just gave out 4.3 billion in bonuses for their top 696 people who screwed us all. Let me remind us all that the average house in America can't be bought on transplant wages. If we can't hang on to good middle class jobs, we will become like the close to 45% of America that is looking to vote in someone who wants us dependent on the gov for a handout, rather than on our ability to work hard.
It already is.
Look at the $165 million in bonuses that AIG is giving in order to keep top talent.
These "talented" guys were so talented they knew how to completely crash the economy.
Stupid congress poked GM for using their corporate jet that they bought from their own subsidiary. Yes, GM makes corporate jets (SAAB)
GM only owned the automotive division of Saab...you've been watching too many "Born from jets" commercials without reading the fine print. The Saab aircraft manufacturer was the original owner of the Saab automotive division before selling it to GM. Well, technically, the Saab Group owned the automotive AND aircraft divisions and sold the auto division to GM, but the group started as an aircraft company.
He is a Forklift operator for goodness sakes. Just a step up from stock boy. I got my facts straight. Oscar went into deep debt based on OT. When the OT was gone he loses his house, cars and toys. What is to know other than he was overpaid. And undereducated. A victim of our school system and a Union that just keeps extorting more from their employers. No problem until they come begging the tax payer to maintain their opulent lifestyles. Oscar is just one example of the UAW mentality that is shared by the GM executives. They all think they are more important than they really are. Let GM fail.
So for an "average" guy making $25.64/hr to get to $103K per year, he'd have to work about 64.8 hours per week. And that's just assuming 1.5x OT for anything over 40 hours for the week, and not taking into account that some situations might call for double-time. And in some jobs, they give you OT for working anything over 8 hours in a day, regardless of whether or not you actually hit 40 for the week.
So chances are, it took considerably less than 64.8 hours per week for this guy to hit $103K.
I wonder how hard it would be to re-write the contract so that you don't get time and a half for OT? I got re-classified back in 2001, where instead of getting 1.5x, I just got my regular pay. However, to compensate, they did give me a 10% raise.
In the long run, it probably worked out, because they don't care nearly as much if I go into overtime. When I got 1.5x, they'd try to do everything in their power to get out of it, like making me take a long lunch, go home early, or whatever. And then the kitty litter would hit the fan, because some emergency would often come up when I wasn't there, and the people who were couldn't deal with it! :sick:
One thing they really need to start doing is teach financial skills in high school. You'd think it would be common sense, but if someone has to declare bankruptcy because their income drops from $103K to $87K, and they managed to rack up $469K in debt, evidently that sense ain't so common!
I guess that old saying that with great wealth comes great responsibility rings true here. Now, while many wouldn't consider $87K or $103K per year to be "wealthy", it can still get you in trouble if you don't know how to handle it. Sorta like those lottery winners you read about who are bankrupt 5 years later.
That would be easy. It would be 5 one-hour course/sessions with simple to understand rules such as:
- Do without until you have cash to pay for it.
- Only loan to ever have in your life is a mortgage on primary residence with one-
quarter to one-third down.
- Use cash to pay for everyday needs groceries, clothing, gasoline, etc.,
- Bigger cost items ok to use credit card but "MUST" pay off balance in full each
month, only one credit card.
- Save, save, save - build up cash reserves to buy car (used is sufficient until later
in life to buy new), furniture, appliances, etc., build up to and always have 2 year
cushion to pay expenses if job lost, have savings for unexpected
expenses/repairs on house/car
- Healthy lifestyle from teens to senior, have/buy health insurance
End of lesson.
Maybe D3 would be viable today if above formula had been in use for last 2-3 decades. No loans to them would be needed. Folks would be using cash to buy new cars.
You have nailed the situation perfectly. You cannot give a person without any clue about finances a large sum of money and not cause him grief. While I am sure there are UAW members that smartly saved that OT for their retirement. The BK rate among UAW members does not reflect a high percentage with that kind of common sense.
I know guys that made $150K building the Alaska Oil Pipeline. Their hourly was under $20. So you know they put in a lot of hours. 12 weeks straight 16 hours per day was common. Many went back to TX & OK and paid cash for a nice home. Many pissed it away in the bars.
At a minimum, there should be something like a mandatory one quarter personal finance class in high school. I bet the banks and junk sellers would lobby against it...who really controls society...
Two long hard years later they get home and find the missus took off with the cash. :shades:
The guys who had it figured out used their weeks off to go boar hunting in Yugoslavia. I guess it depends on whether you want a wad of cash in the bank in your 70s and 80s or a wad of memories.
This was interesting:
"The state of Michigan, which competed against a number of other states for the Daimler facility and has lost hundreds of thousands of auto jobs in recent years, considers nabbing the German hybrid subsidiary a huge get as it tries to leverage its technical and engineering resources to become a center for hybrid and electric-vehicle technology."
Daimler Shops For Michigan Property, Tax Incentives
Just pulled up Zillow. First neighborhood I zoomed in on have homes for $700. That is $700 for a 3 BR 2 Bath home with a lot. Daimler should be able to buy the whole state and kick all the UAW workers out. :shades:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4939-Braden-St-Detroit-MI-48210/62338907_zpid/-
Two German and two French owned banks got over $34 Billion dollars combined as a gift from all of us American taxpayers late last year. There were many more foreign banks on the list.
We, not knowing this, begrudge our own comrades in arms, a small fraction of that amount to keep the most important US manufacturing industry in a survival mode.
Not suprising, because I have also heard on here how we complain about paying taxes to schools if we don't have kids going there ourselves. But if there is a war, like in Afghanistan, who will have sons to send? Imagine that. Getting to choose between sending a son to fight for our country and having to pay taxes to a school if you have no son? And those who chose the latter are complaining.
As for the political parties, when is the last time the party not in control has ever offered realistic alternatives? All they do is take cheap shots and focus on Madison Avenue sound bites. The Dems did it while Bush was in office and the Republicans are doing it now. Truth is, both parties have become impotent.
PS - for the retired people on this forum, remember that as jobs tank so do the taxes and corporate revenues that cover your pensions and health programs. You may not feel it as hard today as the people losing their jobs or seeing lowered incomes, but if our industry keeps tanking you're going to end up getting hit as well.
For Sale: The $100 House (NY Times)
If I remember correctly, Bush2 did offer bailout to D3 last Nov/Dec after the Democrat controlled Congress was set to do nothing. Yes, some say Bush2 merely kicked the can down the road, but the billions were desperately needed by GM and Chrysler by the end of Dec to avoid bankruptcy.
Nothing wrong with loyal opposition from party out of power to party (Dem) that is in power. Seems like Dems are notorious for cheap shots and play dirty to extent to almost be treasonous such as when Sen Harry Reid declared the Iraq war was lost. Do not recall any Repubs being treasonous when Bill Clinton waged war in Bosnia. Dems never offered any viable plans for Iraq. They, including Obama, said that Surge would never work and were hoping for Iraq defeat to hang on Bush.
Obama should support the D3 (with loans) more so than the billions he and Dems will waste on pork and unnecessary so-called stimulus.
They are now proposing strict new regulation of the whole industry, talk about closing the barn door after the horse has run off, but still it is to me the most important part of the whole bank rescue package, and I profoundly hope they get it right.
I have to admit I am occasionally swayed by the argument that compared to the masses of cash we are handing out continually to the banks, the $16 bilion GM wants is a pittance. Maybe we should just let them have it to burn, I dunno. Just whatever you do Obama, don't insult our intelligence by calling it a loan. This money is gone forever the minute the check is cut.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This should qualify as the post of the day, if not the post of the year...
1. Give the INXS of 1,000,000 dollars per person bonuses in big 4 products they can not sell (like 50 Saturns or whatever is the dog each's universe) and at MSRP +.
2. Then require a 90% CASH tax for the FORDS, GM'S Chysler's (full value) !!!! What they wants to do with 50 Saturns (or whatever) will be up to of course them, then.
A World Without Chrysler? Maybe... (Edmunds Daily)
If the company goes under, how will we live without Hemi V8s, the Grand Caravan (the vehicle that started the minivan segment), the Viper and the the iconic Jeep Wrangler?
Putting aside all the hullaballoo people are making about these automaker's impending bankruptcy, don't you think the Jeep brand would survive intact, in someone else's hands? I am pretty confident we will still have Wranglers in the future, perhaps even the Grand Cherokee, although it seems to me its time has passed.
Now the Grand Caravan I wouldn't miss. And the Viper is more of an oddity than a lustworthy model to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Treasury Department will guarantee payment of receivables for components supplied to automakers."
Auto Suppliers Get $5 Billion From Treasury (AutoObserver)
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Chintan
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http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/11/news/companies/banks_tarp/index.htm
I also know that Citi is making a profit and is expecting to start repaying the loans. I know AIG is probably going to be broken up and the good pieces sold to repay the loans. I don't see where GM or Chrysler are near making a profit, or have any non-dream idea of how to get profitable ( I don't see anyway without cutting all their obligations thru BK).
Therefore I see bank/AIG money as being recoverable, while GM and Chrysler, and maybe Ford next year will continue to lose money year after year, with no end in sight.
Rather, outlaw the inefficient production of the guzzlers. Period, the end.
Report on that.
Regards,
OW
There is the problem. You can't tell people what they can or can't build or buy, but you CAN more than subtly(sp) "encourage" them to with a gas tax.
Regards,
OW
Efforts to raise the CAFE standards have been ongoing since... well, a long time. It must have taken 25 years to get the latest increases past the AAA, D3, oil companies and other lobbying outfits.
Which time? The 60s, when VW came over and beat them up? The 70s and 80s when Honda, Toyota, and Nissan came and beat them up? or the 90s and 00s when Hyundai and Ford came and beat up on the Bailout Boys (GM and Chrysler)?
Or will it be the 10s, when Geely and Chery come and beat up on GM and Chrysler perhaps?
Anyway, how will we live without Chrysler? Answer: "probably without losing a wink of sleep."
Many police and municipal bodies apparently find that the 300 and Charger fit their needs more so than the fwd offerings of Ford and Chevy (Fusion, Impala). Seems like this part of Chrysler could be viable. Police, municipalities of course still like and use the rwd full-size Ford/Mercury.
Dodge pickup, Jeep and minivans should also do well. The rest of their lineup should fade away. Don't know where Chrylser hybrid and/or electic program is with regard to competition.