Wagoner is pressured to leave and he quits GM and Chrysler are given additional funds to stay afloat. GM is given 60 days to find a restructuring plan or the loans are called and it is put into a government-structured bankruptcy. Chrysler is give 30 days to be bought by Fiat or the loans are called and it is put into Chp 11.
Note the difference. Chrysler probably will go from Ch 11 to liquidation where certain assets may be bought for a steal.
Well, I'm no expert. But I think the best thing would be for Chrysler to go under. Mercedes got bamboozled into buying an "equal" and Chryslers world market share is dismal. When Mercedes bastardized them they were left with no R&D and technology. Mercedes can buy Jeep and Nissan can make the Ram. As for GM, in one for or another they need to stick around. A governement aided bankruptcy may be the best choice, but they will keep digging themselves into a hole the way things are now. If they can be the 5th largest automaker and sustain a profit, that is a success,
Let's face it. GM and Chrysler's years of bad products has caught up two fold: -No one wants to buy their cars -People hate the companies so much they would rather see them fail
If only the Cimarron had never been made. :surprise: :lemon:
A lot changed a couple of weeks ago...biggest thing is the restoration of confidence. That's what the markets needed most, and what Obama has just done (with his strong words about GM and Chrysler) should restore it further.
We went from talking down the economy to make the crisis seem worse to effect more legislation more easily. I believe it came from Bo deciding his constant negativity was hurting his poll numbers more than his handlers wanted. So he turned his tone more positive and sent out the talking points fax.
Yes, that happened along with fudged "profit" numbers from three big banks..imo, it was an orchestrated attempt to pump the economy and keep BHO approval numbers respectable. It may work short term but this man-who-never-had-a-job is floundering and there is no solid good news about the economy.
Scary day in America when the government can fire people and then dole out taxpayer money to prop a failing company (or companies) up. They should be in reorganization. If the government wanted to set up a reasonable assurance of warranties for people I could understand that. What we have here is a government that has such huge debt our great-grandchildren's children will be paying it off. These are the folks we have chosen to take over failing companies? To do what? Cheat on their taxes? Good grief! Wake up folks. There really isn't enough money in the world to get us out of this mess. We have to stop: Stop spending, assess our losses and figure where to slash spending to attempt to be successful again. More spending never ever gets one out of debt. Never has and never will!
it was an orchestrated attempt to pump the economy and keep BHO approval numbers respectable.
Every move is to that end. It does not look like it worked pushing Wagoner out as CEO of GM. The market is responding negatively.
The sooner they proceed with C11 with GM the sooner we can start to recover.
The announcement by the White House auto panel headed by former investment banker Steve Rattner marked a stunning reversal for management at both automakers and for GM investors and creditors who had bet on a softer line.
"We have unfortunately concluded that neither plan submitted by either company represents viability and therefore does not warrant the substantial additional investments that they requested," a senior administration official said.
It will be interesting when they publish the terms of the CEO of GM's "golden parachute". I am sure a (Presidential) firing such as the one where the CEO steps down, (in his role as sacrificial lamb) triggers all sorts of financial incentive clauses in his contract.
My take on all these bank and outrageous AIG bonuses is that it is payment for jobs WELL done !!!
Powers that be wanted a fiasco and.... they got it !!! Some say one of the BEST (worst) fiascos in US history!!
Scary day in America when the government can fire people and then dole out taxpayer money to prop a failing company (or companies) up
I'm glad to see someone else sees it the way I do. People worry about separation of Church and State. I think this is a much more grievous attempt to undermine our freedom.
More spending never ever gets one out of debt. Never has and never will!
Honest assessments of the Great Depression bears out what you are saying. Spending less than you take in is the only solution that will work. On an individual basis and the State and Federal Government. Of course blaming it on the other guy is the way Washington DC operates.
GM may survive as an importer of cars from China. They have proven they cannot make money building vehicles in the USA. They lost $BILLIONS$ in 2007 when over 17 million vehicles were sold. Now if they only lost money last year like some of the other automakers I would agree they have a chance. Giving them money for anything but bankruptcy reorganization is foolish. Of course this current government is good at wasting money foolishly IMO. $800 Billion Pork stimulus in the first month has kind of set the tone.
The worst CEO is out but look what's in.(goverment) Goverment Motors is not good for anybody. Goverment thinks it's the answer to all problems, but big spending goverment is the problem.
Government won't be in it for long if they play the C11 card and make the necessary cuts. Private investors will get the assets at below book value and build a new company from the ashes. 40 models indeed!!
believe it or not GM can sell Buicks in China. They love them.
That is absolutely correct. So what is the difference between a Chinese built Buick and a Detroit built Buick? One sells the other does not. My guess is attitude. The whole Domestic Auto industry attitude that they are better because they are made in America, has finally come back to bite them in the butt. Heck that Aussies build the best looking Buick in my eyes. The Royaum competes head-on with the Audi A6. You cannot say that about any US built Buick.
Exactly. GM has been short selling the US consumer for a while and giving us the last generation product in order to save money. We get the Cobalt while Europe gets the Cruz? The good name of GM is gone and saying made in America can't sell crap anymore. :lemon:
Just listened to BO lay out what's ahead for Detroit. First thing I took from it is that BO owns this one now. He mentioned how the "government" decided to loan money a few months ago while Detroit came up with plans to restructure/reinvent/whatever. Now, upon further review, he's decided that the plans were not good enough, but he's going to extend them working capital while they have a last chance to come up with a plan.
Second, even though BO specifically said that Chrylser is in a tougher spot, he's only giving them 30 days as opposed to the 60 additional days he's giving GM.
****Speculation/opinion alert - feel free to disagree****
Just a gut feeling, but the only reason I can for those differing time frames is so the announcement of bankruptcy proceedings don't happen at the same time.
With the union and the debtholders both seeming unwilling to come up with more concessions, the only way to force those concessions is under existing bankruptcy law. If Chyrsler restructures under Chapt 11 it would not seem as big a deal as the same happening to GM.
Prime the pump with a forced restructuring of Chrysler and 30 days later when GM can't meet conditions and has to follow it will be an easier sell.
On the bright side, I think that ripping off the Band-Aid quick will geet us to the dawn of a new, leaner and meaner day much faster.
Having been around the forums here for quite a while, I'm not not sure how well the government backing warranties will work out.
People get ticked off when the mechanic can't duplicate the noise they're imagining now. Think the expectation that "government will fix it" is gonna help? :shades:
Maybe, but on many levels Chrysler is much lest viable than GM. Technology, market share, current vehicles all put them at a disadvantage. Also they are a privately owned company and we have no idea what Cerebrus's financial sheet looks like, they may have the capital on hand to make Chrysler competitive now.
Also, these loans and stipulations were decided upon by the previous administration. Our senators and congressmen had already decided not to give the D3 any loans, but Bush stepped in last minute and swiped his Chinese credit card. The Obama administration is a liberty to put any restrictions they like. If it wasn't for our tax dollars they would not be around anyway.
I think you are right. I've talked to several dealers about Chrysler and they agree Chrysler has no chance of survival with some type of partnership. Daimler raided the kitchen and left Cerberus with a shell of a car company. I'm not blaming Daimler because lots of us on Edmunds knew Chrysler's future was pretty dim when Cerberus bought them in 2007. I'm not sure how Cerberus missed this. They may have been blinded by the "good deal" they got. It's like the home buyer who sees this great house they think is a steal and pass on the house inspection. Now they find out the basement leaks like a sieve; the foundation is cracked; the roof leaks which explains the texturing on the ceiling to hide the water stains; and the furnace is 40 years old. Heck, $8B for a legendary car company is worth the risk. Unfortunately, they got burned. Cerberus will sell the individual brands for what they can get and write off the rest. isn't that what accountants are for?
GM is a bigger company and I honestly think the administration feels GM is the one to "save" between the two. GM has cars in the pipeline and has released pretty good cars in the past 2 years. Unfortunately, they make so many models, it's hard to notice the good ones from all the mediocre ones. GM can immediately consolidate and look more like Nissan (mostly good cars but a couple of dogs). The problem is GM should have begun re-structuring 2-3 years ago when they realized they were losing more money than a drunk gambler in Vegas.
I don't like loaning any money to either company but no one asked me. The softer side of me hates to see anyone lose their job because of stupid decisions by management. GM and Chrysler have had plenty of time to re-structure. It's time for them to take a long look in the mirror. hopefully with Wagoner gone, we'll hear better plans. This guy was clueless.
So, what of all the people that live on the coast, which is some 15 million here in California alone? I mean the ones who are driving 10, 15 year old cars with no rust problems? What has saved them from this supposed epidemic of rust?
I wonder if it would be a greater concern with those cars just sitting there, in the parking lot by the dock, and not getting moved for a long time? It's one thing to live near the coast, and driving your car regularly, but just sitting around, in the salt air, not getting moved, they might trap more moisture and salt? Just a guess.
I am all for the Fiat merger but there are two big ifs in my view:
-Why would Fiat merge with a company they could purchase on the cheap through bankruptcy with severed union and bond contracts. -Fiat makes ugly cars. What design and management teams are willing to Americanize these cars.
Up, just read that agreement between Fiat, Chrysler, and the Treasury had been reached in principal.
Scary day in America when the government can fire people and then dole out taxpayer money to prop a failing company (or companies) up.
Actually, you have it backwards. First they dole out taxpayer money. That's what gives them the power to fire people. It's called attaching strings, and the idea is to make it less desirable to a company to take taxpayer money in the first place.
Fiat needs the dealers in the USA to make it. It would be an easy addition to the Chrysler line-up with little overlap. Fiat makes some world class high mileage diesel.
Having been around the forums here for quite a while, I'm not not sure how well the government backing warranties will work out.
People get ticked off when the mechanic can't duplicate the noise they're imagining now. Think the expectation that "government will fix it" is gonna help
Well it won't be govt mechanics working the vehicles and it prolly won't be gov't managers making the decisions on whether the problem is a warrantable defect or not but it will prolly be government money ( ours ) paying for the repair or defect.
What I can see is that absent the corporate pressure to hold down warranty costs the government will likely be spending more than GM would. This is good for customer service but bad for the bottom line.
Chevy won't liquidate. They will go into a government assisted restructuring. Bondholder's, the union, and stockholders will get hosed, but a slimmer and better GM will result. Chevy has too many valuable name brands to fold up. Chrysler on the other hand.
I don't think we're talking "liquidation" here. Perhaps in Chrysler's case we might be, but for GM, definitely not.
Right now GM is having trouble getting all the ducks (union and debtholders) in a row (getting them to take the concessions they need to take) so that the company can move forward.
Well those ducks have two choices. Volunteer to join the army and dig ditches and do all the nasty stuff they don't want to do
OR
Get drafted into the army and dig ditches and do all the nasty stuff they don't want to do.
There are no other options for them. It's going to happen one way or the other.
Comments
Better to be struggling a bit with local and worldwide finances than soothing a bopped eyeball, right?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
GM and Chrysler are given additional funds to stay afloat.
GM is given 60 days to find a restructuring plan or the loans are called and it is put into a government-structured bankruptcy.
Chrysler is give 30 days to be bought by Fiat or the loans are called and it is put into Chp 11.
Note the difference. Chrysler probably will go from Ch 11 to liquidation where certain assets may be bought for a steal.
As for GM, in one for or another they need to stick around. A governement aided bankruptcy may be the best choice, but they will keep digging themselves into a hole the way things are now. If they can be the 5th largest automaker and sustain a profit, that is a success,
Let's face it. GM and Chrysler's years of bad products has caught up two fold:
-No one wants to buy their cars
-People hate the companies so much they would rather see them fail
If only the Cimarron had never been made. :surprise: :lemon:
A lot changed a couple of weeks ago...biggest thing is the restoration of confidence. That's what the markets needed most, and what Obama has just done (with his strong words about GM and Chrysler) should restore it further.
We went from talking down the economy to make the crisis seem worse to effect more legislation more easily. I believe it came from Bo deciding his constant negativity was hurting his poll numbers more than his handlers wanted. So he turned his tone more positive and sent out the talking points fax.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Every move is to that end. It does not look like it worked pushing Wagoner out as CEO of GM. The market is responding negatively.
The sooner they proceed with C11 with GM the sooner we can start to recover.
The announcement by the White House auto panel headed by former investment banker Steve Rattner marked a stunning reversal for management at both automakers and for GM investors and creditors who had bet on a softer line.
"We have unfortunately concluded that neither plan submitted by either company represents viability and therefore does not warrant the substantial additional investments that they requested," a senior administration official said.
My take on all these bank and outrageous AIG bonuses is that it is payment for jobs WELL done !!!
Powers that be wanted a fiasco and.... they got it !!! Some say one of the BEST (worst) fiascos in US history!!
I'm glad to see someone else sees it the way I do. People worry about separation of Church and State. I think this is a much more grievous attempt to undermine our freedom.
More spending never ever gets one out of debt. Never has and never will!
Honest assessments of the Great Depression bears out what you are saying. Spending less than you take in is the only solution that will work. On an individual basis and the State and Federal Government. Of course blaming it on the other guy is the way Washington DC operates.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
That is absolutely correct. So what is the difference between a Chinese built Buick and a Detroit built Buick? One sells the other does not. My guess is attitude. The whole Domestic Auto industry attitude that they are better because they are made in America, has finally come back to bite them in the butt. Heck that Aussies build the best looking Buick in my eyes. The Royaum competes head-on with the Audi A6. You cannot say that about any US built Buick.
Second, even though BO specifically said that Chrylser is in a tougher spot, he's only giving them 30 days as opposed to the 60 additional days he's giving GM.
****Speculation/opinion alert - feel free to disagree****
Just a gut feeling, but the only reason I can for those differing time frames is so the announcement of bankruptcy proceedings don't happen at the same time.
With the union and the debtholders both seeming unwilling to come up with more concessions, the only way to force those concessions is under existing bankruptcy law. If Chyrsler restructures under Chapt 11 it would not seem as big a deal as the same happening to GM.
Prime the pump with a forced restructuring of Chrysler and 30 days later when GM can't meet conditions and has to follow it will be an easier sell.
On the bright side, I think that ripping off the Band-Aid quick will geet us to the dawn of a new, leaner and meaner day much faster.
People get ticked off when the mechanic can't duplicate the noise they're imagining now. Think the expectation that "government will fix it" is gonna help? :shades:
Also, these loans and stipulations were decided upon by the previous administration. Our senators and congressmen had already decided not to give the D3 any loans, but Bush stepped in last minute and swiped his Chinese credit card. The Obama administration is a liberty to put any restrictions they like. If it wasn't for our tax dollars they would not be around anyway.
GM is a bigger company and I honestly think the administration feels GM is the one to "save" between the two. GM has cars in the pipeline and has released pretty good cars in the past 2 years. Unfortunately, they make so many models, it's hard to notice the good ones from all the mediocre ones. GM can immediately consolidate and look more like Nissan (mostly good cars but a couple of dogs). The problem is GM should have begun re-structuring 2-3 years ago when they realized they were losing more money than a drunk gambler in Vegas.
I don't like loaning any money to either company but no one asked me. The softer side of me hates to see anyone lose their job because of stupid decisions by management. GM and Chrysler have had plenty of time to re-structure. It's time for them to take a long look in the mirror. hopefully with Wagoner gone, we'll hear better plans. This guy was clueless.
I wonder if it would be a greater concern with those cars just sitting there, in the parking lot by the dock, and not getting moved for a long time? It's one thing to live near the coast, and driving your car regularly, but just sitting around, in the salt air, not getting moved, they might trap more moisture and salt? Just a guess.
-Why would Fiat merge with a company they could purchase on the cheap through bankruptcy with severed union and bond contracts.
-Fiat makes ugly cars. What design and management teams are willing to Americanize these cars.
Up, just read that agreement between Fiat, Chrysler, and the Treasury had been reached in principal.
Exactly point on.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But the government runs the VA, Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, WIC, Post Office, Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Congress, ...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I guess my new Chevy Traverse might be a collectors item.
So much for "See the USA in your Chevrolet." :sick:
Actually, you have it backwards. First they dole out taxpayer money. That's what gives them the power to fire people. It's called attaching strings, and the idea is to make it less desirable to a company to take taxpayer money in the first place.
Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet. :P
It's an American Revolution!
I don't know, this looks good to me.
Fiat needs the dealers in the USA to make it. It would be an easy addition to the Chrysler line-up with little overlap. Fiat makes some world class high mileage diesel.
People get ticked off when the mechanic can't duplicate the noise they're imagining now. Think the expectation that "government will fix it" is gonna help
Well it won't be govt mechanics working the vehicles and it prolly won't be gov't managers making the decisions on whether the problem is a warrantable defect or not but it will prolly be government money ( ours ) paying for the repair or defect.
What I can see is that absent the corporate pressure to hold down warranty costs the government will likely be spending more than GM would. This is good for customer service but bad for the bottom line.
Chevy has too many valuable name brands to fold up. Chrysler on the other hand.
Not one car I would want to be caught in.
Which one, the car or the model standing next to it? :shades:
Right now GM is having trouble getting all the ducks (union and debtholders) in a row (getting them to take the concessions they need to take) so that the company can move forward.
Well those ducks have two choices. Volunteer to join the army and dig ditches and do all the nasty stuff they don't want to do
OR
Get drafted into the army and dig ditches and do all the nasty stuff they don't want to do.
There are no other options for them. It's going to happen one way or the other.