Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Welcome to the club. How long before Canadian tax-payers go ballistic?
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Did you read the auto-committees findings or any of the news outlets. The administration still favors bankruptcy.
    All thought I still don't thing GM is on par with Toyota, Honda, or Ford for that matter, the fact is that three decades of shoddy quality has scared consumers from GM and Chrysler's products. Maybe if they had made the current Malibu five years ago GM could sell a few more Malibus now. And lets face it the previous Malibu could not hold a candle to the previous Accord.
    Even if you put huge tariff on foreign brands, GM would have made shottier cars; driving more consumers to foreign brads.
    Do you want US consumers to only be able to buy GM, Ford, and Chrysler? Is that your solution?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123841609048669495.html
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    "You will continue to point out every mistake in the history of GM, but can't explain how it matters. Today, they make a great choice of vehicles at good prices with great warranties and great engineering and build quality. The competition does too but how does that help America with it's 10% unemployment and 450,000 automotive jobs already lost in the Midwest just in 2008? "

    The mistakes GM has made in the past explain why they are $60B in debt right now. It explains why they have lost $82B over the past 4 years. It explains why they have lost 50% market share over the past decade. It explains why their cars while good still lag behind Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and now Hyundai. You can point out the Malibu, CTS, Acadia, Corvette but they still have dogs like the G6, Cobalt, Aveo, Trailblazer, etc. And in recent memory the Ion, Relay, Uplander, Grand Prix, etc.

    I agree about the "made in China" at Walmart but are you prepared to pay double or possibly triple the price? Our high labor costs drove business out of the country. Ask Ford why they are building more of their cars in Mexico and not the US.

    If there is a compact American car that is as good as the Civic, please show me.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Today, they make a great choice of vehicles at good prices with great warranties and great engineering and build quality.

    You have just entered...the GM PR zone.

    What's so great? The Malibu is average, which might be great compared to most of what GM offers. The CTS is good, again putting it miles ahead of the typical GM garbage. If GM suddenly improving to mediocre is reason enough to bring out the marching bands then GM really DOES live in the Twilight Zone.

    Good prices...for GM maybe. Rotten when you compare what you get for the same price from Ford or Mazda or Nissan. Yes, we all know Honda and Toyota surcharge and charge extra. Interesting that people seem to be willing to pay that price premium for their products...should tell one something.

    And GM's warranty is great compared to who? Hyundai's warranty is better. Heck, CHRYSLER'S is better, you want to see whos is...uhh, longer...heh. :shades: Just by that we can tell that the best warranty doesn't make the best car company, can't we?

    You continue to make unsubstantiated statements...hope you don't mind if I point that out. GM's mistakes matter because they go toward either building or undermining reputation (building bad, undermining good). GM has not yet done enough to counter what it has done to undermine its own reputation. And it's running out of time to do so...they started too late.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Exactly, and at least Ford built the Fusion four years ago. Took Chevy till '08 to build the Malibu. And the Cobalt is the biggest joke running. A rebadged Daewoo with a solid rear axle and interior straight out of the Sunfire.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >Exactly, and at least Ford built the Fusion four years ago.

    Ford's best decision till date was to put Mazda in charge of platform design for small and mid-size cars. Ford USA retained design of large and SUV.
    The Fusion, Milan, Zephyr, Edge, CX-9 are all built on the Mazda6 platform which was released in 2003. Awesome platform.

    IIRC, Automotive magazines quoted something to this effect "Master to learn from Student" to describe the phenomenon.
  • gs42gs42 Member Posts: 54
    Ford will run out of money in 2010 unless there is a sharp turnaround in car sales before then.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You will continue to point out every mistake in the history of GM, but can't explain how it matters. Today, they make a great choice of vehicles at good prices with great warranties and great engineering and build quality.

    Sorry, I don't call a company whose vehicles are still below the average mark great engineering.

    The Japanese and Koreans are targeting their competition for extinction.

    There's a defeatist attitude. Not one that got us to be great in this country. A little competition wants to be excellent and let's complain? Or how about just COMPETING?
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Average in that peer group is 'outstanding'. You should scan some of the 40+ different sourced reviews that are out there in the twilight zone.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    You can scour the internet all you want, but the two that matter most are Consumer Reports and JD Power. Accord and Camry still come out on top.
    Even those don't hold up to the reviews of the public.

    2008 Sales Figures:
    Honda Accord: 372,789
    Toyota Camry: 436,617
    Chevy Crapibu: 178,253 (in a new design year)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I do not need to look to the past. It really doesn't matter. Taking the current market, GM has already failed to be profitable as it stands today and their plan failed as well.
    There are many reasons but it is what it is.

    There is only one way to moderate the global auto market with the US being part of the plan...fix whats broken NOW and grow a new industry fast with marketable products that are DESIREABLE.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If there is a compact American car that is as good as the Civic, please show me.

    There is nothing made in the USA that even comes close. Period, THE END. :cry:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    We will all feel much better after the C11 restructuring into GOOD CAR Company/BAD CAR Company. It's the twist of the day!

    Either way, the past is gone and the future is right in front of us now.

    Looking forward to a new USA Auto Industry coming to a theater near you!

    Regards,
    OW
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    With the 60 day clock ticking, I wonder if GM will seek Any Port In A Storm
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Hmm, he makes a reasonable point (luckily Ford doesn't need his advice, heh). I never liked Gates much, but he's no fool.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Cobalt is not a Daewoo. The Aveo is based on the Daewoo Kalos. Both are pretty nice little cars. They've revamped the Aveo interior and it is really nice, especially for a car in its price class. My Mom has an Aveo and loves it. I'm surprised at how much room there is in the back of that teeny car. Heck, I wouldn't mind a Cobalt SS coupe myself!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only choice that really matters is MY CHOICE and the Accord and Camry aren't even on my radar.

    Come on, does any kid grow up aspiring to own a Camry or Accord, or is that what he chooses when he lets his dreams die and lets some aging irrelevent bitter ex-hippie at Communist Reports who still has issues with his now deceased father who drove a Cadillac make his choice for him? I LOVED IT when Kevin Spacey's character in "American Beauty" grew a pair and ditched the Camry for a hot 1970 Firebird!

    Heck, when I was a kid, I wanted a Cadillac, and by God, I did it!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The Cobalt is not a Daewoo. The Aveo is based on the Daewoo Kalos. Both are pretty nice little cars

    Easy there...come see this nice padded room that I have for you. You're obviously a victim of a nervous breakdown. Nice cars??? Compared to a 70s Ford Pinto MAYBE. Each one is near the bottom of its respective category (if it wasn't for the Caliber, the Cobalt would be AT the bottom). The only thing the SS has going for it is horses and a suspension tweak that gives it the handling that a regular Focus or Mazda3 already has.
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Today, they make a great choice of vehicles at good prices with great warranties and great engineering and build quality.
    Last time, when I checked GM had nothing equal to audi A5. And what about service, could I get free loaner when I drop a car for oil change at the morning?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I get a free loaner when I drop my Cadillac DTS off for oil changes too! Last time they gave me a new CTS! SWEET!!! :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The only choice that really matters is MY CHOICE and the Accord and Camry aren't even on my radar.

    Why? Oh yeah, your dream cars are couches with wheels. :shades:

    Personally, I prefer the Fusion and Altima, but I'd consider an Accord.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, maybe that's what I want! I want a big, stately, powerful, comfortable car! I don't want an anonymous transportation capsule like a Camry or Accord. The way the Accord has grown, it'll soon be as big as a Crown Victoria anyway.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Man, even Rocky says the Aveo is a bad car. The Aveo is the last rated sub-compact in consumer reports. You should have looked out for your Mom and made sure she bought a Fit (better and sager).
    As for the Cobalt, it falls far short of the Sentra, Civic, Impreza, Corrola, the Hyundai, even Focus.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now that I think of it, I think you would LOVE an A8...you can get a 2 year old for half price of the sticker and then you'd have something!

    Speaking of Cadillac, let's see what models last through the new Government AXE. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My Mom couldn't afford a Fit and I wouldn't expose my mother to those sharks at the Honda dealer. My Mom has a very modest income and the Aveo fit her budget. Her previous car was a 1987 Dodge Omni. If the Aveo is last rated, heck last place isn't that bad these days. Even the worst car is pretty good nowadays.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I wouldn't want my mother in a last-place rated Aveo. Doesn't that car have some problems in handling. Perhaps a son-assisted purchase of a good used CTS Cad would be safer. Bailouts, assistance, loans, etc are all the rage today.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    When you speak of "the Hyundai," I presume you're speaking of the comparable model to the Sentra, Civic, etc. - the Elantra. I've owned quite a few new domestic, European, and Asian cars since 1968, and my wife's 2006 Elantra (our first Hyundai) has been the most properly "screwed-together" and reliable new car we've ever owned. Granted, it's only been a bit over 3 years since the purchase, but we've had zero problems, which was certainly not the case with our last new Honda or Toyota.

    On the Aveo, I've rented a few on business trips, and although I wouldn't want to own one, they were pleasant cars to drive, and seem to hold up to the rigors of rental use.

    As to the purpose of this forum, I firmly believe Ford will be the winner when all is said and done. Bill Ford was smart enough to realize that they needed "to bet the farm" a couple of years ago, and bring in a proven CEO from Boeing. Ford has excellent European models, and once they finish revamping their domestic offerings, they will be well-situated to weather the storm.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    My Mom couldn't afford a Fit and I wouldn't expose my mother to those sharks at the Honda dealer.

    So why didn't you give your mom the $ to buy a Buick from those saints? since you have $ for a caddy, and want to help GM and the U.S. factories.

    Her previous car was a 1987 Dodge Omni. If the Aveo is last rated, heck last place isn't that bad these days.

    You're right there! Almost anything's a step up.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The A8's a nice car but I would truly FEAR the maintenance and repair costs on a complex piece of machinery like that! I prefer the styling of the Mercedes S-Class, but also fear the maintenance and repair costs on it.

    I'm not enough of an arrogant jerk to drive a BMW 7-Series.

    I still have a soul and a personality, so a Lexus LS460 is out.

    The lack of an available V-8 keeps me away from a Lincoln MKS.

    The Infiniti M45 is too weird.

    Too bad Mercedes still doesn't build the W126 generation S-Class.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Mom's taste in cars is the polar opposite of mine. She loves those tiny little cars while I like a traditional full-size car. The smallest Buick - a LaCrosse - would be way too big for her.

    Mom loved that Omni. You'd think she was driving a Bentley by the way she would praise that homely little Dodge. Actually, despite being such an ultra-cheap car, the Omni was pretty good. My parents live in NE Pennsylvania and they have some pretty nasty winters. That Omni would effortless traverse snow-covered streets that many SUVs couldn't handle.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I am sure you know this already, but a used car (late model for discussion purposes) is almost always a "better" value. Even www.Edmunds.com has done a piece on this.

    So... no can do on a new FIT? .... how about a 1-3 year old FIT?? There is even one guy floating around the VW TDI forums who wanted to trade in/sell his new 09 FIT !!?? .... Over an Aveo!? That would be a no brainer to me. OK want to stay American? GM's Buick has even aced out the Lexus moniker in JD Powers car satisfaction surveys.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    You and your mom sound like what my parents were like. Dad loved big cars with all the bells and whistles even when he got to an age where the bells and whistles were beyond his comprehension. Mom liked little cars with stick shifts. Heck, she had a 72 Corolla at one point 9these were small enough that you expected to buy another for the other foot) and for decades though that was the best little car she ever had.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Then I have to expose Mom to the USED CAR salesman at the Honda dealer who's probably a Great White Shark compared the the mere hammerheads and makos on the new car side of the dealership.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    Someone talking was saying the Cobalt is an Opel. It's an Astra version for the Chev.

    Wiki: "It is available as both a coupe and sedan and is based upon the GM Delta platform also shared with the Chevrolet HHR, Pontiac G5, Astra (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and Saturn marques), and the Opel Zafira (a seven seat MPV). "

    That's a long way from Daewoo! :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Do they still wear white patent loafers and those left over loud :lemon: PLAID golf pants, where you are? ;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Why not try a different Honda dealer?

    Or better yet, buy American and wait for the Ford Fiesta if a Focus is too big. Since the Aveo isn't actually an American car (it's a Daewoo...it's Korean).
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Yeah, I can't imagine that a base Fit or Yaris cost more than $1,000 than the Aveo. Both those cars will last twice as long so adding 6 moths to the financing shouldn't be a big deal..
    Unfortunately my Mother passed away, she loved Honda's. I personally wish I could buy her one now.
    As for car dealers being sharks, aren't they all sharks. Maybe you have more leverage with Chevy? One thing is for sure, if you UAW they love ya. Ask Rocky.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Honda and Toyota salesmen around here look more like these guys nowadays:

    image
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090401/ts_nm/us_autos_report_sb

    No more Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn. Good riddens.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Where do you live? LA, Miami, Cleveland?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Philadelphia.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Hey! I bought my van from one of those guys!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Damn. Shop online and fly to the dealership? That stinks.
    Maybe they are Eagles Fans at least?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    You guys are just cracking me up !!! More on topic, I am truly in the wrong business/s!! I wish someone would fire me for $ 20 M (what I read in passing, the GM CEO HAD to take by contract for the BO beat down) Shoot, I'd even do it for 19 M ;) And this is not to mention all the OTHER boiler plates, etc and etc's !!!! Use of the corp jet for life,.......
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    It seems most who had an Omnirizon liked it. My dad had one when I was a little kid, and years later he would still talk about it. He didn't have such good luck with the POS S-10 Blazer that replaced it. Last GM product he bought...

    Since before I was born my mother would drive midsize or large domestic cars, sometimes with dubious quality. She's now jumped ship to Toyota.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I agree. If you add the losses by GM since Wagoner took over and the debt he accumulated, he is the 100,020,000,000 CEO. Six million dollar man got nothing on Wagoner. He is the shame of the Duke Blue Devils. :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Her previous car was a 1987 Dodge Omni. If the Aveo is last rated, heck last place isn't that bad these days. Even the worst car is pretty good nowadays.

    I don't think an Aveo is a horrible car per se. It's just that it doesn't do any one thing particularly outstanding. There are cars in that class with better performance, better handling, better fuel economy, better build quality, better safety scores, etc. But it's an okay car at a low price point. Heck, I was actually impressed with that interior dress-up option that gives you the leatherette!

    And as for safety, I'm sure it's a heckuva a lot safer than an '87 Omni! I'm sure even the worst small car today is safer than the best small car from 1987.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I agree. If you add the losses by GM since Wagoner took over and the debt he accumulated, he is the 100,020,000,000 CEO. Six million dollar man got nothing on Wagoner. He is the shame of the Duke Blue Devils

    Just remember that per Rocky, he's a great CEO. :P
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    Right....and everybody was out to get GM
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Trouble is, the guy who really sowed the seeds of GM's destruction is dead. I'm talking about one of the 20th Century's worst monsters - Roger Smith! He was an evil man who belongs in the same place of hell as Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and Saddam Hussein. I should live an extraordinarily evil life then kill myself just so I can go to hell, find Roger Smith, and kick his butt for eternity for what he did to my beloved GM! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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