Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Oh well, if you drive it you will see the value. I do agree maintenance cost wold be a concern. I'll wager the Merc S or the A8 would move you up quite a few notches in driving pleasure.

    I test drove one (2007- 26K miles - last September - ~$49K) and was blown away by the whole experience of the A8. Nice, nice ride and understated luxury. Best value in the luxo class IMHO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now your talkin! Get it out of your system because a new dawn is about to begin after the June detonation! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I don't know. Growing up I always like the Accord two door, Dodge Ram, and Mitsubishi Eclipse (I'm 27). It was not till I grew older that I desired to own/drive, a BMW or Audi or Porsche or even CTS.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I have a buddy who has leased maybe 3 A8s in a row. Wonderful car to ride in. Glad he can afford it. I couldn't begin to thank about it!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Is anyone going to miss these brands. The H2 was a fad car; the thing could not go off road, had a cramped interior, and just sitting it would break the inside. Pontiac has not been good since the Firebird. Growing up we used to have an off color acronym for Pontiac. And Saturn, well Saturn pretty much speaks for itself. A joke of a cloning attempt by GM.
    What will you guys miss? :confuse:
  • kirby2010kirby2010 Member Posts: 136
    Of course these guys shouldn't get a government loan. This is (supposed to be) a free market economy. Two key points I think are lost on most Americans: 1) When American autos led the market there was a clear distinction between brands -- Ford was entry level, Mercury was a step up, Lincoln was top of the line. Same was true for GM and Chrysler. Now it's impossible to tell them apart. But the Japanese auto makers have this down to a science - Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinti, Toyota/Lexus. 2) When Reagan was president he artificially de-valued the dollar to stem the flow of cheaper Japanese imports. Almost overnight the dollar fell by half. US auto makers could have held the line on prices and essentially shut out all imports from Japan. Instead, and the unions deserve significant blame here, prices rose substantially and major concessions we given to the unions. Now the car companies are paying the price.

    One more comment on unions. Hondas and Toyotas are in big demand, Many models sold here are made here - by non-union labor.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Maybe, but if Ford came by asking for a loan this December, I would be all for it.
    Their products and design seem to headed in the right direction.

    If I can get a decent price on a Fusion and a free 5 year warranty, it will be my next car. The Acura TL and Lexus LS are just uprgaded Accords and Camrys too.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Miss what? You mean they're still around?

    Saturn could have been something, too bad. Pontiac is useless, only exists so Buick/GMC dealers can sell "Chevys." Hummer was a joke, good riddance.

    GMC needs to go too.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I thought GMC was a joke, but they are actually the second highest revenue bringer for GM (ahead of Pontiac). Even though SUV's are on the down slide, they still bring in a ton of money.
    And although I could never drive a large SUV, I have to admit that the Yukon Denali is bad [non-permissible content removed]. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The other is a well built turbo diesel (bigger I or V- 6/small V-8) with a bullet proof transmission (auto, DSG, or my preference 6 speed manual) would keep the suv segment healthy for literally decades; especially if they can find a way to a combined EPA of 30 mpg !! Some so called "economy " cars do not get 30 mpg? This is seemingly not likely: not for technological or emissions reasons, but dare I say... political..
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,044
    The A8 is one nice ride, but at those prices, it better be! And I'd be fearful of one once it's out of warranty.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Your right. The Hybrid Yokun and Truck are a FORTUNE. A fuel efficient turbo diesel would have made a lot more sense. :lemon:
  • muskyfevermuskyfever Member Posts: 20
    I know it hurts the older guys who grew up with American made cars and trucks but the FACT is that Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are all better in all aspects. I wouldn't even put the Big 3 in the top 15 car manufacturers for quality. Nobody I know dreams of American cars anymore. They dream about Lexus, Infiniti or BMW etc...

    American made cars in this day and age stand for low quality with outdated technology.

    Pontiac? I don't know anyone who owns a pontiac. Remember the Aztec and the grand am and grand prix and g6 and g5? Complete garbage.

    Saturn is the definition of junk. Need I say more?
    Buick makes a solid vehicle but I don't want people to think I'm a 100 year old duffer. I'm only 33. Buick has the old geezer image.

    Cadillac? What do they even make anymore? The bling bling Escalade? The CTS? Heck my neighbor had a CTS and traded it for a G35 and said the G35 would roast the CTS in every way. Is it me or is the CTS just a malibu with rims and leather?

    Hummer? Who wants a 7 mpg piece of crap? I don't.
    Chevy trucks. They build a decent truck for the money but it has a homely weak V8 in it and the looks are SO outdated it's funny. I saw a new chevy truck the other day and couldn't tell if it was an 09 or a 1989!

    The Chevy Trailblazer has to be the most bland and boring vehicle available. I heard on the radio yesterday you could get an 08 Trailblazer 4x4 with all the options for $14,000!! Who in their right mind would buy an 09 for $30,000 dollars if they are only worth 10-14 thousand dollars within a year?

    I'm sorry but the big 3 with their OHV pushrod engines did this to themselves.

    I'd take a Maxima, Altima, Accord, Camry, Acura TL, Infinit M45, M35, G35, G37, Impreza, Jetta TDI, (BMW any model), (Mercedes, any model,) Lexus, any day over an American made car. What do the Americans make that can even remotely compete? Maybe their trucks? The Tundra and Titan are better trucks. I actually feel kind of sorry for the big 3 but I'm still never going to buy any of their vehicles. They ARE that bad.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    True, but the Dodge Ram and Ford F-150 kick tail. The Tundra is not that reliable, not as Fuel efficient as the others, and the beds have been falling off.
    The Silverado tries, but they used that cheap last generation 4sp transmission until this year. The new one is better but is notorious for falling apart.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dream of nothing but American vehicles. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda aren't even on my radar! GM, Chrysler, and Ford are Number One, Two, and Three in my ranking as car manufacturers. Everybody else is an also-ran or wannabe.

    Cadillac makes several cars I absolutely love, including the one I own- a black DTS Performance. The CTS is not based on the Malibu. The CTS is a RWD/AWD configuration and the Malibu is a FWD platform. He traded a CTS for a G35? Is your friend going blind? The G35 is a bizarre vehicle thay looks like it was designed by E.T. the extraterrestrial!

    You said one thing right. Buick does indeed make a solid vehicle. My first two cars were Buicks. I'm only 43 and I'd buy a Buick in a New York second!

    I'd take a Grand Marquis, Impala, Malibu, Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac G8, Corvette, Camaro, Cobalt SS, Saturn Aura, Mustang, (Cadillac - any model), (Buick - any model), or Lincoln Town Car any day over any foreign model.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Mine is a much shorter list, but yes, if I had to get a 4 door American sedan, The Buick line would be one. I have liked the progress of the Corvette starting in 2001, specifically the Z06 Corvette. It has been a GREAT bang for the buck performance car !!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I have to admit that the Yukon Denali is bad [non-permissible content removed].

    Yep, I have a POS Yukon Denali that is a bad [non-permissible content removed]...cost almost $4K in repais so far at 60K miles.

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Again, you are person who is dead set in your ways. But your conclusions are on an objective scale, rather than the norm.

    Saying people who drive Civics are "dorks" or people who drive BMW's are "Arrogant" and people who drive Lexus cars are "whipped (insert snide insult here)" baseless and is only said to make your choices look good.

    If someone was to follow up and say Buicks and Cadillacs are for Boss Hogg/Wilfred Brimley wannabe members of the AARP club, yet they never owned one, they would also be off base as well, wouldn't they?

    I've never owned a BMW, Land Rover, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, VW, Lincoln, Mercury, Rolls, Maybach, Porsche, Smart, Toyota, Lexus and dozens of other brands but should I immediately trash them or every owner to make my purchase of Subarus look good?

    No. There are plenty of people out there that I know who own cars from these companies and are completely satisfied and don't come anywhere near the stereotypes that I'm sure you have for each and every one of them.

    Own one and then get back to us. ;)
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Well if numbers sales numbers say anything, the US public doesn't agree with you.
    You could argue that GM product buyers are ignorant as they don't research automobile quality before shopping. You could also say that Cadillac buyer are stretching for luxury, needing incentives to buy a level of car they can't afford.

    Based on looks alone I would pony up extra cash for a 5 Series, Lexus LS, or even take a discount and buy a Hyundai Genesis. The Genesis is cheaper, unless you were baited with incentives or bought a slightly used Caddy. Cadillacs depreciate so fast they are near worthless once you drive them off the lot.

    I'd take a Grand Marquis...over any foreign brand. So do a lot of taxi drivers and police officers.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I like the Fusion (Milan/MKS), F-150, Corvette, Lucerne, and Escape.
    The driving position and dead peddle on the CTS would make me steer clear.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I saw a bright white Vibe an hour ago - the color toned down the front end nicely. I'd take a 5 speed with the 1.8l in it.

    Some of the low end Vibes are going for $14k supposedly and GM could service it if Pontiac became a niche model or non-existent. Or I could take it to Toyota I suppose since it's a Matrix twin.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I like the Vibe and the Matrix. The thing I don't get is that they cost more than the Premium Impreza. If I could get a steal on a Vibe I would think about it.
    Vibe is a good Pontiac, I mean Toyota, I mean GM, no wait Toyota. :blush:
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,384
    I've never owned a BMW, Land Rover, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, VW, Lincoln, Mercury, Rolls, Maybach, Porsche, Smart, Toyota, Lexus and dozens of other brands but should I immediately trash them or every owner to make my purchase of Subarus look good?

    Excellent point. I grew up in a small Kentucky town and my family never drove anything but Fords and Chevrolets. Still, I got hooked on BMWs back in 1971 at the age of 13- blame it on me finding David E. Davis' article Turn Your Hymnals to 2002. I spent my early driving years street racing a 350 Chevy Monte Carlo that a friend of mine and I built(I still get asked to rebuild Q-Jet carburetors), but once I was out of school(1982) I began my hunt for a used BMW. In 1983 my future wife found a very nice 1973 Bavaria just up the road from her apartment in Cincinnati. Within a week I sold my Arrow 2.6 GT and the Bavaria was all mine. I haven't looked back since. That said, I still own one American car- a 1999 Wrangler Sahara. I love it. As for current US products, I'd be very tempted to buy a G8 if you could get a manual transmission in the GT. For the nearly $40,000 that the GXP costs I'd rather have a CPO M3 or 335i. But if someone wants to spring for the GXP, that's their choice-and it's a perfectly reasonable one.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I drove the G8 non GT. No good. Has to be the GT or better. 335i is still King AFAIC.

    Price being the determining factor, the GT is now prime due to the heavy incentives. I believe you can get under 30K price now. That is tempting. A CPO '07 335 is still over 30K.

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I don't get the G8. It pretends to compete with BMW and the likes but no one who would by BMW would ever think about the G8. It markets itself as sporty but has no 6sp, I mean even the Honda Civic have a manual option.
    Something really telling about the G8, all window and mirror controls are in the middle. A sign of cheapness; they put the controls in the center so they don't have to flip them over from Australia.
    Maybe the UAW made a manual transmission to expensive. Steve you have any info on that?
    Just read that GM was already planning on canceling it back in October. I guess they didn't sell any. To think, they almost made a G8 sport truck. That would have sold well
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,384
    Something really telling about the G8, all window and mirror controls are in the middle. A sign of cheapness; they put the controls in the center so they don't have to flip them over from Australia.

    I'll have to disagree with you on that point; BMW put the power window switches on the console up through the E46, and I always found that layout to be more convenient than on the armrest. That said, I do prefer to have the mirror switches on the armrest.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Cool. To each his own. I like mine on the door, but I am right handed too.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    The Audi A5 is one sweet car. It's just priced too expensive for my blood (even if I had the cash for one, I'm too frugal to actually spend that kinda money on a car).

    :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The fact that you said taxi drivers and police officers is a ringing endorsement for a Grand Marquis! Any car that can withstand the beating a taxicab or police cruiser endures is the car for me!

    Too bad they don't still make these! This is the ULTIMATE car!

    image

    As for my Cadillac. I bought it because I find it easily the most beautiful car on the road. I'd have paid DOUBLE for it!!! I don't care if the car has the market value of 6 month old milk in a few years - I love it!!! :):D :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There's probably a good reason you passed over the others in favor of a Subaru as I did everybody else in favor of Buick and Cadillac.

    I've had cars from other manufacturers than GM. I've owned a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS and a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue. Loved that Chrysler! I sold it to my brother 16 years ago and he's still driving it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I drove the G8 GT and it is a really sweet ride! I never owned a Pontiac before, but this one might get me in the Chief's showroom! My Dad had an AWESOME 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible when I was a kid.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Funny how when Checker was going out of business no one gave THEM a bailout...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,044
    I'd consider a G8, even the V-6 model, as a replacement for my Intrepid. I mean, even with just the 3.6 V-6 and 255 hp or whatever, I'm sure it's a better performer than my Intrepid with the tiny 200 hp 2.7.

    My only problem is that the G8 just seems like one of those cars that, if you're gonna get one, you might as well go all-out and get the V-8! I just don't feel like spending that kind of money. Of course, with the way things are right now, I don't want to spend V6 kind of money, either!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    To each his own. Personally I would not like to drive something associated with a cab driver
    I think the STS is a much better looking car. For some reason the DTS strikes me as something Jerry Seinfeld's parents would drive. Not something "bailout" worthy.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had a 2002 Seville STS prior to the DTS. If they kept the STS similar in dimensions to my previous car, I would've purchased it instead. However, they shrank it to the point it was almost indistinguishable from the CTS. I bought the DTS because I liked its styling and it was closer in dimensions to my old car.

    I really liked the car Jerry bought for his parents in that episode! If it were my kid who bought me such a car, I'd be crying and extremely emotional saying, "I LOVE YOU, SON!!!"
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I would concur. Window and mirror switches on the center console are the historical norm, especially for European brands. It has nothing to do with cheapness or cost-efficiencies. In fact, it most likely increases the cost of the wiring looms, and labor cost.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    But where do you put the cup-holders? :P
    Honestly, I was speaking from naivity. All the cars I have owned have had hand cranks or power windows on the side.
    It is more expensive than in the center due to switching back and forth from Australia and the US. (The G8 is a Holden).
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol! good point...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,044
    I dunno about mirror switches, but I always thought that power window switches on the console scream "cheap". I especially hate it when they put two on either side of the shifter...makes it impossible to roll all four windows down at once!

    But then, with some of the Chrysler cars I've had, they arranged all four switches on the driver's door in a single 1x4 row, rather than a 2x2 pattern, so you have to be a bit of a contortionist to roll them all down at once! And I've seen old GM cars where they'd mount the switches in a 1x4 row, but they'd be on the door panel rather than the armrest. So you could hit all four of them at once if you wanted, but you'd have to twist your wrist into a pretty obscene position! I dunno why they started doing that kind of crap in the 1970's. I've seen old 50's cars with power window switches mounted in a 2x2 setup, so they were able to figure it out once, but must've forgot!

    Probably the main reason that screams cheap to me, is that it was mainly cheap cars that I first saw the console-mounted window switches.

    In the end, it's probably just a matter of what you're used to.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    This is the ultimate Lemkomobile, but you may have to engineer a transfer to Guangzhong (or wait 24 years) to buy one. ;)

    image
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Wow, gorgeous.

    The car isn't bad looking either. :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actually, you just penned a new Division for the New GM....Lemkomobile..much better than Oldsmobile!...or Buick :D

    Caddy - Chevy - Lemko (LMC)

    Regards,
    OW
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    GM, now renamed Government Motors, has a new CEO: President Barack Obama.

    By replacing the head of the company and demanding a restructuring of its board in return for further TARP aid, Obama has taken upon himself the responsibility for the future of the company.

    This move will backfire big time! The auto giant is very, very unlikely to be saved by this current TARP infusion. Doubtless it will need more in the near term. But the resentment now focused on the management of the company will then turn to Obama. Having demanded a replacement of the management, it is he who will be held responsible for the company's future.

    And each time GM asks for more money, Obama will face a choice: take personal responsibility for laying off 100,000 auto workers or anteing up the additional cash. By inserting himself so deeply into the management of the company, Obama makes himself central to its future. If Obama lets the company fail, having already extended credit, he will have all of Michigan on his case. If he keeps coming up with more and more tax money, he will earn the contempt of the voters.

    Socialism has its price. By taking over the management of a company, you become the determinant of its fate in the public's mind.

    Obama does not seem to realize that government takeover is the beginning, not the end, of the problem. He should have stuck with being president and left making cars to others.

    And, as the new CEO of General Motors, what will his policy be on corporate compensation? Will the public tolerate his letting his new company pay salaries sufficient to attract the talent necessary to salvaging the firm? Or will he have to rely on a bunch of kids right out of school, willing to work for one or two hundred thousand a year, for the company's salvation?

    When it comes to the hard work of cutting retiree health benefits, reducing salaries, laying off workers and closing plants, is Obama willing to resist calls for his intervention? Is he up for taking the blame for all the "heartless" measures GM will have to take to salvage its future? He has put himself squarely in a position to pay a steep political price for his assumption of power at GM.

    Most troubling is the sense that Obama cannot have thought this through. He can't have planned this. President Clinton used to say at strategy meetings that we needed to think three or four moves ahead and not just "kick the can down the road." Obama is clearly not following his predecessor's advice. He realized GM needed money. He knew the public would have a fit if he gave it. So he decided that he would appease his electorate by exacting blood from the company's management and directors by using his guillotine on some of its old gray heads.

    But, had he thought before he acted, he would have realized that it would have been far better to have criticized GM from a distance even as he extended more money -- rather than to, in effect, take over the company.

    The president's protestations that the government does not want to own a car company are quite beside the point. It's his now, and he better figure out what to do with it.

    ________________________________________________________________________________- __________________________________________________________
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    New General Motors CEO Fritz Henderson won't cut his salary to $1

    link title
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not to mention the you break it you fix it and support it for INXS of 75 years war policies we have been following since @ least WW2. :P
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    The problem is Obama picked the wrong guy to run GM. He should have picked me! I would guarantee turning GM around in a year. If I fail to do that, I would forgo half of my $10 million/year compensation :shades: :shades:

    But really, what was he to do? Continue on with same old CEO that lead GM to the brink of bankruptcy? As someone being asked to bail out the automakers,I found that prospect untenable. Wagoner had to go, and so should several more of his executive team.

    But, had he thought before he acted, he would have realized that it would have been far better to have criticized GM from a distance even as he extended more money -- rather than to, in effect, take over the company.

    I'm sure he did think it through, and he had to act or just risk throwing away more taxpayer money. If it were me, I would have asked for Wagoner's resignation back in the fall as a condition of getting any taxpayer money whatsoever.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Brings new meaning to the rappers name: 50 cent (fit tee cent)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Are you saying BO should have let GM fail?

    This is the alternative. Some people felt a full scale failure of C and GM would be worse.

    I'm glad that since my $$$ are being used for this bailout that the govt is dictating some terms.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So did we all catch the visual pun.... in LEMON yellow? ;)
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