Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This Fiat looks as good as any compact sold in the USA currently. Plus 48 MPG combined US Gallons. No wonder Toyota cannot sell Prius in the UK.

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Fiat can find a market with Chrysler dealers. This is not a bad little car for under $20K No UAW to contend with. Chrysler can phase out the junk that don't sell with their name on it.

    Fiat Linea
    Transmission: Five-speed manual, front-wheel drive
    Economy: 57.6mpg 48 US MPG
    Standard equipment: Climate control, electric windows, alloy wheels, six airbags, trip computer, remote central locking
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    That's a FIAT? Wow. That is nicely done if it's as small as I'm picturing.

    What does the rear look like? What size car is that? Aveo? Civic?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I don't know, this looks good to me.

    She...er...IT looks good to me too. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Linea is 180 inches. Slightly bigger than the Civic and Corolla.

    image
  • jroth2jroth2 Member Posts: 2
    It's easy to pay independent mechanics for labor if the manufacturers go under, but what about all the model specific parts we can only now get from dealers? Some, I am told, are not just stocked but made in runs between production runs. Will the government make sure parts are stocked and/or can be produced? Perhaps at some tremendous cost to the taxpayer, or the owner will be forced to accept used or repaired parts? If the car is only warrantied for five years what will it be like to obtain these kinds of parts after that?
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Your right Gagrice, I really don't know that much about Fiat. I do know that they own Ferrari, and the Corvette could really use some help in "interior design".

    Also Fiat is only agreeing to a 20% stake in Chrysler. I wonder if that will be enough for the treasury to still give them a lone and/or keep them out of bankruptcy.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    looks like a cousin to the chevy cobalt/pontiac g5

    see the front lights/fender lines
    image

    image
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's true if Chrysler liquidates then the plants would be shut down and spare parts would have to come from independent stampers and they'd likely be expensive.

    In normal Chp 11 BK everything keeps running as it was pre-BK.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Buicks made for China are a whole different animal than Buicks meant for the US. You can compare the difference by looking at the Buick website for China:

    http://www.buick.com.cn/
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    -Fiat makes ugly cars. What design and management teams are willing to Americanize these cars.

    Yes, but the Fiat 500 is quite a good competitor to the Mini.

    And we'll get the nice looking cars when Alfa Romeos come back to our shores.

    :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    I see Cobalt lines in the rear. Nice.

    But the front was very pleasant without the slanty odd Civic look or the pug of the Corolla

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Where are some pictures of the older Fiats. Like ones first imported here as economy cars in the late 70s, early 80s? I've searched on the net...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Auto Team excerpt:

    Even under the Company’s optimistic assumptions, the Company remains breakeven, at best, on a free cash flow basis throughout the projection period, thus failing the fundamental test of viability.

    o Under its own plan, GM generates $14.5bn of negative free cash flow over its 6 year forecast period.

    Even in 2014, on its own assumptions, GM generates negative free cash flow after servicing legacyobligations.

    o Given the highly challenging current market, the Company is already behind plan in its overall volume expectations and market share for calendar year 2009.

    o Since the Company has built a plan with little margin for error, even slight swings in its assumptions produce significant and ongoing negative cash flows. For example, a 1% share miss in overall global sales, all else being equal, in 2014 would lead to a $2 billion cash flow reduction in that year.

    In short, while the Company has made meaningful progress in its turnaround plan over the last few years, the progress has been far too slow, allowing the Company to continue to lag the best-in-class competitors.

    Furthermore, even if the projected plan is achieved, the cash flow forecast is quite modest, leaving the Company little margin for error in what will be a very difficult turnaround.

    As a result, the President’s Designee has found that General Motors’ plan is not viable as it is currently structured. However, given the improvements that have been made to date, and the path on which these improvements place GM, we believe that there could be a viable business within GM if the Company and its stakeholders
    engage in a substantially more aggressive restructuring plan.


    No surprise there. The beancounters missed as usual, just like the sales projections at the start of the begging period. And they choose another beaner to run the mess??

    Give me a break! :mad:

    Regards,
    OW
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,384
    No surprise there. The beancounters missed as usual, just like the sales projections at the start of the begging period. And they choose another beaner to run the mess??

    What a great idea! After all, the bean counters dragged GM to the edge of the abyss in the '80s. I guess it's only fair the our President lets them finish the job. Of course, Obama and his Administration now own GM literally and figuratively. If Government Motors tanks, so does the Administration. Obama and Congress can attempt to prop GM up for a while longer, but they may well have hitched their wagon to a Vega.
    Or a Citation
    Or a Cimarron
    Or an Aztek.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Too funny!...

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,794
    chrysler knew they were in trouble many years ago. that's why they let daimler buy them in the first place. did upper management know the company would get gutted?, probably. maybe that is why they built up the big cash reserve in the first place.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,794
    looks like cgi to me. look at the angle of the reflection in the car window compared to the young lady standing next to the car.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >cgi

    CGI? Common Gateway Interface?
    CIG? Clinton Global Initiative?
    CGI? Computer Generated Graphics...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is the latest version of Fiat 500 by Abarth. Mini killer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    My early impression of Fiat was a neighbor who had one of these or something similar. It got towed home several times. I saw it along the highway roadside where he commuted to Dayton, dead. Early impression of foreign cars other than Beetles.

    Look at the Fiat gagrice posted. They've sure come a long way.
    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    If you look at detail for the Chrysler merger, Fiat basically gets paid $6 Billion in tax payer money to for Chrysler. Cerebrus forgives all debt and Fiat can buy a majority stake in Chrysler for a few million.
    The only real winners are auto-workers and Fiat. GM and Chrysler loose possible market share and tax payers get hosed.

    I'm not for the merger.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    It looks like a busted cousin that will break down on you and give you a harsh ride. :)
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Hey... my Vega (the car that put me into my first Nissan) was silver just like that one!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What US automaker has a car that will get 60-70 MPG for sale here? Fiat has several models. They would give Chrysler what the need. They already have a World class full sized PU truck and Jeep. A line of efficient cars would have them on top of GM and Ford in a heart beat for $6B.

    I would not have given any of them a nickel. I do think that if the money is going to be handed out there should be some chance of success. I see NONE WITH GM.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    GM has product loyalty, technology, and competitive mid and small sedans. They also still sell a few SUVs. Name one car besides the 300 that is any decent from Chrysler. The Ram is good, but with the truck market Saturated, they won't sell as much as the used to. Nissan Ram has a nice ring to it though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Name one car besides the 300 that is any decent from Chrysler.

    I cannot think of one I would waste space in my garage for. That includes their SUVs. The Jeep Wrangler along with their Cummins diesel PU trucks are all that is worth salvaging. What they do have that FIAT does not have is a large dealer network. That makes it a match made in heaven. They can get rid of the OVER PAID UAW workers and start importing fuel efficient cars that NONE of the Domestics seem to be able to build here. I do not consider 30 MPG fuel efficient by the way. A midsize that cannot average 40 MPG in this day of technology is a joke. VW has them, why not the D3.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Hey... my Vega (the car that put me into my first Nissan) was silver just like that one!

    Let me guess....except for the rust holes around the front and back windows?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    What rear windows? I lost both rear windows within a week of each other. They were windows that swung out at the rear to open and were hinged at the front. The glue that held the hinges to the window glass failed. Both times I was on the highway at about 60mph. The hinges let loose and the window went out into the slipstream and WHAM. I thought I had been shot at!

    And honestly, it would take at least one lousy vehicle like that to get me to search out other brands right now. While Detroit makes some fine vehicles, they've probably lost folks like me forever without some horrible experience from the brand we're with. Just as I'd expect that owners who have recently bought a new GM product that they're happy with really wouldn't consider "going import".

    The battleground is the population of people who are not yet buying cars.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    True, but at the same time the market place is more competitive than ever and consumer are more informed. One need only go on your website, Edmunds.com to find comparisons and invoice price.
    While Toyota is testing for the ideal windshield wiper speeds, GM is still figuring out how to put body panels close together.
    Even on Edmund's, while the Honda accord is being critiqued on looks; the Saturn Aura is spending time in the shop. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the Aura, G6, and Malibu share the same underpinnings.
    And now we have Hyundai, Nissan, and VW all chomping at the bit.
    I recently read you showdown between the CTS and they Hyundai Genesis. I have never been in a CTS but considered it GM's best car, yet it resoundingly lost to the Genesis (a Hyundai of all things). Small design flaws and quality doomed it.
  • canadiantoyotacanadiantoyota Member Posts: 148
    From the CBC...

    The Ontario and Canadian government made and emergency loan of $250 million dollars to Chrysler Canada so that Chrysler could make payroll on Tuesday, March 31st. What about next week????
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Cool! They still use them as Funny cars!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Why, another emergency payout, of course. I don't expect sales will jump to 17MM SAAR units next week!

    Regards,
    OW
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Would YOU favor a government loan/tax credit (etc.) to BUYERS OF D3 car products? (with the customarily normal boiler plates)

    It should be more than obvious, the way these loans are being administered/happening in the real world, that they are any number of "return the favor/s" rather than any attempt at actually selling products; which a hell of a lot of folks have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate, they really do NOT want.

    The MY sales figures should be the "additional" clue: 16.5 M MY car sales with D3 having (20%) a minority share of that market, down to 10 M (projected) MY sales (with its statistically significant unchanged proportionate minority share.)

    One (i.e., GM ) product line that so called is getting it right: the Chevrolet Corvette line. Upshot: they do NOT build a car till there is an actual dealer (aka, customer) order. Of course for a host of reasons through out its 50 plus years storied history, it has been threaten with extinction more than once.

    Yet because it is ACTUALLY succeeding, most would be LOATHED to help it.

    So it is difficult to impossible to come to the conclusion that our legislators want to reward success!! Indeed they are rewarding FAILURE !!! So I would not be too terribly surprised that failure will be with us for a very long time.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    While Toyota is testing for the ideal windshield wiper speeds, GM is still figuring out how to put body panels close together.

    And look what Honda is doing. Your point is well taken. GM is still in the dark ages of Auto making.

    TOKYO (AP) - Opening a car trunk or controlling a home air conditioner could become just a wish away with Honda's new technology that connects thoughts inside a brain with robotics.

    Honda Motor Co. (HMC) has developed a way to read patterns of electric currents on a person's scalp as well as changes in cerebral blood flow when a person thinks about four simple movements - moving the right hand, moving the left hand, running and eating.

    Honda succeeded in analyzing such thought patterns, and then relaying them as wireless commands for Asimo, its human-shaped robot.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Where are some pictures of the older Fiats. Like ones first imported here as economy cars in the late 70s, early 80s?

    I can send you some pictures of my '73 128-SL coupe :shades: . May take a day or two - they're on 35 mm slides!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You that's something good? I find that extremely frightening - a machine knowing what I'm thinking! This is the stuff of scary sci-fi novels!
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Name one car besides the 300 that is any decent from Chrysler

    Right now the Challenger is red hot and is going for close to MSRP. It's Chrysler's only vehicle that they do not offer their employee pricing on. That will probably change when the new Mustang and Camaro come out though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,044
    Wow, I'm impressed, Circlew....where did you find a pic of a Vega that rust-free?! :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I like the Charger myself.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    And look what Honda is doing. Your point is well taken. GM is still in the dark ages of Auto making.

    For the fans of GM, surely thes realize they were best at clone-making.

    Who wants to bet the Volt beats Toyota to mass-market PI tech??

    GM lost their edge long ago. :cry:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Your right. All the Prius needs to be a plug in is a bigger battery, software tuning, and an extension cord. Toyota could probably make it a $5k option in a matter of months. :shades:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Ah, old Fiats.... I remember looking at a Fiat Strada back in probably 1979 - kind of liek a Rabbit without the legendary Volkswagen reliability. :sick:
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    1963 Black Fiat Spider 1197cc, 4 speed. Fun little car until 1967 and about as fast as a pregnant nun goes to confession. ;)
  • murphy4murphy4 Member Posts: 92
    when does it hit the street?
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    This is the real deal
    image

    Used mostly as Taxis in Mumbai and other parts of India
    image
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >while the Honda accord is being critiqued on looks;

    Let us know when Honda gets automatic transmissions that last.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The two key problems with translating euro-models to NA are....

    1. The euro-models are generally underpowered unless they're diesels. Being that way they will get scads of bad press as soon as the reviewers get their inky hands on them.

    2. The euro fuel economy results never translate directly to EPA numbers. There always seems to be a huge shortfall.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp.'s new chief executive said Tuesday that more of the automaker's plants could close and bankruptcy is "more probable" as GM works to meet new, tougher requirements for government aid. In his first news conference as CEO, Fritz Henderson said he expects the company would "need to take further measures" beyond the five plants the company said it would shutter when it submitted a restructuring plan to the government last month.

    What a shocker! :surprise:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Isn't the shocker for you the fact that BO will not let GM go through liquidation in bankruptcy? And that the warranties will be backed? I got a sense that I can still go buy a new Malibu for a long time to come.

    You will continue to point out every mistake in the history of GM, but can't explain how it matters. Today, they make a great choice of vehicles at good prices with great warranties and great engineering and build quality. The competition does too but how does that help America with it's 10% unemployment and 450,000 automotive jobs already lost in the Midwest just in 2008?

    I will continue to point out the negative effects of buying "made in China" at Walmart and buying 'Civic' at Honda.

    Globalization, like most things, is best in moderation. The Japanese and Koreans are targeting their competition for extinction.
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