Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    If the company goes under, how will we live without Hemi V8s, the Grand Caravan (the vehicle that started the minivan segment), the Viper and the the iconic Jeep Wrangler?
    I'll survive without Grand Caravan with Sienna or Odyssey, not gonna cry about Hemi V8s because I love V6 inline bi-turbo, but Jeep Wrangler will be a loss for me. I had a lot of fun driving one to the Green Sands beach on Big Island :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I had a lot of fun driving one to the Green Sands beach on Big Island

    Your not supposed to take your rental car down the South Point Rd.. :blush:

    It is nice down there. I love those cliffs along the ocean also. The Jeep Wrangler will get picked up by some company. Of all the vehicles built by GM and Chrysler, that & the Corvette are the only two that will be missed by me. All the rest have better counter parts by other manufacturers.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    It's karaoke night in Potlicker Flat, and Dub Schwartz is singing :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Beep, beep, beep, my Bleep

    Volt will never see the light of a showroom.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    General Motors and Chrysler might need “considerably” more than the $21.6 billion in additional government loans they’ve already requested

    :sick:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yep, saw that and won't even comment. Revert to the estimate of $100-$125B for the restructuring by the Auto Team who know little about autos!

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Revert to the estimate of $100-$125B for the restructuring by the Auto Team who know little about autos!

    I think that is the plan in DC these days. Keep throwing money at the problem and it will fix itself. Too bad the car Czar has not watched GM lose money most of the last 20 years on poor product and poor management and horrible deals made with the UAW.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Well, here's someone who definitely says no to government loans - Sweden Says No to Saving Saab.

    I'll miss them but GM had taken most of the Saabness out of them anyway.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Here's another approach - Daimler to Sell $2.7 Billion in New Stock to Abu Dhabi .

    Hey, if we get the Saudis to buy up several billion in GM stock they could get us not only at the pump but the showroom as well.... :sick:
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They could buy GM and Chrysler then move the factories to the Middle East and give those people a job so they have less time to protest & make bombs. Plenty of land in the desert to build on. They could build Jeeps to get around with in the desert. I think it is a win win deal myself.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sweden has been there and done that. They know that a government run industry is a losing proposition. Talk about entitled workers. There is nothing like the entitlement a Civil Servant feels. Listen to the screams in CA when they lay off someone even though they are a total waste of tax payers money. Saab is a shell of what it used to be. There was a time they built very good unique cars. They are just more GM re-badges and a poor ones at that. Compare a 1990 Saab 9000 to anything they have today and you will see how bad GM screws up a good thing.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    From your link: "The numbers speak all too loudly. Saab sold just 93,295 vehicles worldwide last year, 21,383 of them in the United States."

    And the article goes on to state that there are 9 million people in Sweden. So this means that about 1 in 100 people in Sweden will buy one of their cars. So some in Sweden will never buy a Saab? Maybe the people of Sweden need to start buying Saabs? Simple solution.

    Or with government regulations and the auto companies loading the vehicles up, have they priced vehicles out of reach of many. I don't think we need to go to the Tata Nano that I saw was launched today, but maybe some of these companies need to produce cars that cost somewhere between the current $25,000 sedan and the Tata Nano.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    maybe some of these companies need to produce cars that cost somewhere between the current $25,000 sedan and the Tata Nano.

    It's called the Ford Fiesta. :shades:

    Actually, it was first called the Chevy Aveo, but now Ford is going to show GM how to do it right. Not that Hyundai (Accent/Elantra/Sonata) and Nissan (Versa/Cube/Sentra) haven't already.

    That Cube looks like a real nice ride for the money...huge backseat too. Why couldn't GM or Chrysler come up with that? (Don't know how big Fiesta's back seat will be, so don't know if Ford did or not).
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    That money should be going to Afghanistan, schools, infrastructure, and helping keep people in those homes.
    Chrysler in GM are black holes. Only new bond and UAW contracts as well as a new board of directors can save those companies. Buy Ford!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    The Volt will make it. But it will be more of a Halo car along the lines of the R8, Viper, and maybe even Veyron. Too expensive for the normal man, but good lucking, and capable of doing amazing things.
    An the same subject, why is it so hard to put a socket on a hybrid. You would think at the very least these would be options on the current hybrids out now.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    oil companies make good profits by charging too much. We dislike them for it. We love their product though. They say they only make 9% profit after taxes. They show a chart of industries and profit percentages. They are towards the good end at 9% for their industry. Guess what industries were at the 1% to 2% end of the chart? Unionized industries.
    We dislike them too.
    Who do we take care of? Foreign Banks. We gave them $120 Billion of TARP money.
    We wouldn't want a foreign company to lose money in loaning to or investing in the US. Many of us do want the company that has 44 million more vehicles on America's roads than any other company to disappear though, and the sooner the better. After all, we do think ahead.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Guess what industries were at the 1% to 2% end of the chart? Unionized industries.

    Oil companies have union workers. Generally they pay FAR MORE than union workers. Both to keep good people and to avoid the hassles a Union brings to a company. I am not sure what side you are on. When you point out how Union companies keep the stockholders from making a decent return, that tells me you think the Unions are the problem in the USA. A company like GM that has not made a decent profit in over 20 years should just close up shop and quit causing consumers grief with their substandard vehicles. I think that 9% should be about bare minimum profit for a well run company. 10-12% would be preferable. GM has not made 5% in recent history. Time to chop it up and sell it for cord wood.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    We dislike and distrust large companies, megacompanies, multinational companies, and other large corporate organizations. It's natural for us. Small businesses have always been more beneficial to Americans and America, and vice-versa. They hire more people, pay more taxes, and don't hide in offshore tax havens. They pay their employees fairly, and don't compensate their executives exorbitantly.This is why small businesses tend not to have to worry about unions. :shades:

    A small business is the guy down the street making a living. A large corporate organization is some Havana smoking, Armani wearing, private jet flying snob who is looking to us to maintain his lifestyle when he doesn't do a good job.

    Unfortunately, government seems to be fond of any sort of welfare...now we have it for both the bottom AND the top income brackets of our societies. Doesn't matter which party is in power either.

    If cars were made by small businesses, we'd love them. Ford is trying to SHRINK, and we start loving them more. We love Honda because it's a smaller manufacturer. Mazda is popular, Subie, Mitsubishi...all smaller car companies. GM, Chrysler, Toyota, you see a lot more hate towards the auto megacompanies, and a lot of calls for them to shrink (Especially GM...too many brands!!).
  • gregagrega Member Posts: 31
    Its all about JOBS, not tha tthey deserve this or that... its about Jobs and keeping your Economy from going into a Depression. Because, if GM or Chrysler go bankrupt, it will take down hundreds if not thousands of suppliers and half a million (or more) jobs... Ask yoru granparents about the Great Depression an dhow bad it was for 10+ years... is that what you wnat?, just because they deserve it... BS!

    If its anybodies fault, blame the arrogant greedy bastards on Wall St.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Because, if GM or Chrysler go bankrupt, it will take down hundreds if not thousands of suppliers and half a million (or more) jobs

    That scenario is a bunch of bulloney you're believing. That story is created by the very people who have so much to gain - the billions in loans. So if you don't think people will embellish a story for billions of $'s then you need to leave Disneyland.

    GM and Chrysler have been headed towards BK for many years, well before the financial crisis of the last year.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Man, Chapter 11 is restructuring. Yes the UAW and bondholders will start at zero, but it will lead to new management and competitive restructuring.
    As it stands, GM loses money on every car made. Bankruptcy may allow them to turn things over so that they can make profittable cars.
    The argument of manufacturing jobs is a century old. Textile mills, steel mills, computer outsourcing. Fact is that new industries spawn and hire a new crop of workser.
    Also as we are in a bad recession, I sincerely doubt that GM bankruptcy will make that much of a hickup. Also, if GM scales down, it leave a bigger market for Ford.
  • gregagrega Member Posts: 31
    "That scenario is a bunch of bulloney you're believing."

    Define for me what happens to all the creditors when a company goes bankrupt?

    ALL Accounts Payable (debts owed) are frozen at $0 so none of the suppliers get a $.00 from GM for all those parts, so with significantly reduced income at all these suppliers force them to layoff thousands and not pay there bills, etc., etc... a snowballing effect. Plus, when you consider over 75% of cars are built by suppliers and GM is mostly a final assembly shop, it gets even worse for the entire auto supply chain affecting businesses across the country... no bull... FACT!

    Maybe if you owned a business you would understand what its like...
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    You are drinking the GM cool-aide. GM would still be producing cars. While restructuring the other auto manufactures will have increased demand, needing more from those plants. The parts makers will take a hit, but as it stands GM is making payments for parts three months later.
    When the airlines went bankrupt, did Boeing go out of business?
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Since when did "Might make right?"

    Size of the company or industry does not make it eligible for a pass to perpetuity supported by non share holder taxpayers.

    As for the Great Depression, the Great War, & the "Great Society"? Been there, done that.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    ALL Accounts Payable (debts owed) are frozen at $0 so none of the suppliers get a $.00 from GM for all those parts,

    That's what they've been getting...GM keeps deferring payments. In some cases, that's what they're STILL getting, to the point where the suppliers have had to tell GM "COD or nothing." Which GM is still trying to avoid paying.

    Want to give a bailout? Give it to the suppliers. GM and Chrysler have GOTTEN bailouts, and are STILL trying to avoid giving that money to the suppliers.

    You really want to give your tax money to someone who doesn't want to pay you for products you've ALREADY delivered?
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Guaranteed workable new plan for the government to
    solve our nation’s crisis.
    There are about 40 million people over 50 years old in
    the work force Pay them $2 million apiece – tax free –
    with the following stipulations.
    1] They leave their jobs and do not get another.
    40 million job openings.
    Unemployment fixed.
    2] They each buy new American built cars.
    40 million cars ordered.
    Auto Industry fixed.
    3] They either buy a house or pay off their mortgage.
    Housing crisis fixed !.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sign me up. I can buy a lot of PowerBall tickets with $2 million and parlay that into some real dough.

    In the news, Obama Auto Task Force Working Against Deadline, Public Anger (U.S. News)

    "The task force faces a deadline of March 31 to decide whether the government will continue to provide funds to General Motors and Chrysler while the companies attempt to restructure."
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Good article. As Obama said on 60 Minutes, "The only thing less popular than bailing out the banks is bailing out the auto industry."
    That being said some piecemeal bailout will probably the strategy used.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Count me in! Mail me my check today and I'll leave work tomorrow and head over to the dealership!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    "Since when did "Might make right?" "

    Hasn't that been the American foreign policy dogma since 1945?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The punchline is that it's probably cheaper to give us old guys the dough and let AIG and GM make their own way without any bailout money.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I know! It's killing me. It would be so easy and I guarantee I'd spend....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    That's a fun idea...might create some progress, although at the same time it would artificially inflate the housing market even moreso than it was a few years ago- few under 50 would be able to buy in unless mommy and daddy gave them a lot of help (it's been that way in my area for awhile).

    It would also cost $80000000000000.....would China really be dumb enough to make such a loan? :lemon:

    It might solve some of the Big 2.3 problems too...all of the high wage oldsters would be gone from the payrolls. Maybe put some kind of pension stipulation in it too, ie: if you take the 2M, you forfeit the pension.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Help out GM a little and let Chrysler go the way of the dinosaur. No one buys their cars anyway. It would also open market share for GM and Ford?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    The only future I can see for most of Chrysler is a ward of the state in the business of making fleet cars. Jeep can probably still turn some profits, and maybe some Dodge trucks, but the rest...not very hopeful.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Dang, GM only has 92,000 employees! If they were to all go it would be a drop in the bucket of the current numbers.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    They could sell the Ram brand to Nissan? Make minivans under different nameplates?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,517
    I don't know if "Nissan Ram" has enough of a good vibe to succeed. The Titan hasn't been the greatest truck in the world, and people will have an association.

    The Jeep, truck, and minivan business might be able to stay afloat, but it would be a relatively small-time operation. I don't know if it would be enough to subsidize any passenger cars.
  • gregagrega Member Posts: 31
    "When the airlines went bankrupt, did Boeing go out of business?"

    Your comparing apples to organes: Boeing makes over 80% of its planes vs. auto suppliers make 75%+ of cars, GM is mostly final assembly, very difference scenario, plus you and I don't buy planes, we buy cars. If GM went bankrupt, would you buy a car from them? Nope, nada, no f!@#$ing way! So their supply chain goes down the CH-11 path with them along with hundreds of thousands of jobs... and the economy!

    Is it worth taking that risk? Nope!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Consumers buy tickets from airlines. Airlines buy airplanes from Boeing, Boeing buys aluminum, wiring, instruments, and upholstery from suppliers.
    And I probably will never by a GM; but I would be more likely to buy a GM that went through bankruptcy than one that continues to suck my tax dollars.
    Unemployment is so hi, even another million job losses is just a blip on the radar screen. If the UAW cared about jobs so much, they would have readily cut their pensions and accepted pay decreases.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If GM went bankrupt, would you buy a car from them? Nope, nada, no f!#$ing way!

    People aren't buying cars from GM NOW...that's the whole point of why they need a bailout. Because they aren't, and haven't been. I wouldn't, nope, nada, no stinking way right NOW. They already got a ton of my money, they should give me a car for FREE! :mad:
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Plus, when you consider over 75% of cars are built by suppliers and GM is mostly a final assembly shop, it gets even worse for the entire auto supply chain affecting businesses across the country... no bull... FACT!

    Maybe you missed that the government will support the suppliers. The feds are preparing to allow GM and/or Chrysler to go under.

    http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/mar2009/bw20090319_960219.htm?chan- =top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis

    If GM goes under, that will not affect the demand for cars. If people want to buy 9M vehicles this year, they will buy 9M vehicles no matter if GM exists or not. The suppliers will simply build more Ford, Chrysler and other parts for the people who will then buy more Fords and Chryslers. The failure of 1 manufacturer will make the others left stronger, allowing them to pickup business.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    You know supporting the suppliers makes sense. It allows them to restructure and serve the other automakers while GM and Chrysler go bankrupt.
    After AIG-gate, the administration is going to be really hesitant to hand out any bailout.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    GM going to BK court will create a local depression, not a countrywide recession.
    The parts manufacturers will get nervous, but if they have not been paid yet, what makes you think they will be paid now???? It is time to face the inevitable. The parts manufacturer should be the one to say "Sorry GM. Cash first if you want the parts".
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >If GM went bankrupt, would you buy a car from them?

    Why Not? I will buy one if the product is good and the price is even better.
    You have to learn to trust the product on it own. Which is what will happen with your vehicle in 3 years or less. No warranty. But you still keep it. No? Why? Because it is a good product. Make a good product, go to BK court, and I can bet my salary that sales will be better and profits even better.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, Geittner is asking for permission today to take over AIG. I wonder if we will see a nationalized GM before this is all over. I know enthusiasts everywhere hate the idea, but the government could hire its own auto team to run the company, people who have worked in the industry, and I can't see how they could do worse than the existing management.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The afternoon doldrums have set in - I first read that as Gettelfinger was asking for permission to take over AIG.

    The idea does have possibilities. :P
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Consumers buy tickets from airlines. "

    And therein lies the flaw in the argument. If you buy an airline ticket from a bankrupt airline, that relationship lasts only the few hours you are on the flight. If you bought a TV from Circuit City last month, your relationship is ultimately with the TV mfr.

    Now, a car, which is significantly more money than a TV or flight, is also a relationship that will last a long time as well. People will take more pause over that situation than they will the others.

    Personally, I believe what we are seeing now is a Government sponsored "bankruptcy", only we aren't calling it that.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    When you buy an airline ticket your trusting the airline to keep you alive.
    Also how long are factory warranties? Limited and for 3 years?

    Honestly, the disservice by GM taking tax payers money probably steers customers away more than bankruptcy.
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