Subaru Legacy/Outback

fedupobowner2

someone asked about the seats & the brakes in the the Outbacks. Neither one is that good in my opinion. My front driver's seat is very uncomfortable after long ride. It almost feels like there a steel post running vertically in the seat. I think the heated seats were better, we don't have those, but it was more expensive. The BRAKES, my gosh, I could write a book about them ala Stephen King style....3 brakes failures in the first 3-5 months after we purchased our 2002 Outback new. THE Dealer refused to fix them all three times, insisting there was "no problem found". Well, there sure was a PROBLEM trying to stop our Outback when the brakes gave way. Their little factory "rep" also told all the subaru dealers in our area that they were not to work on our brakes, EVEN AT OUR EXPENSE" so we spent like over $600 on rental cars trying to find an independent mechanic to bleed the brake lines & had them replace their crummy master cylinder (SUBARU DEALER refused to bleed brakes lines, though put it was on their invoice they had done so.... it was totally obvious however, when we picked up our car from dealer that BRAKE LINES HAD NOT been bled at all!~Oh, btw, did I mention we live in a very mountainous area & our very lives depend on having good brakes? I'm totally disgusted with subaru, both as a company & the disgraceful & unsafe attitude they have toward the customers who buy brand new cars from them.

kmclean

Robert -

We had a "ceiling" leak in our [new] 2K Ltd wagon that showed up the first rainy winter after we bought it. I can't swear to what was done (it's the boss' car and she took it to be fixed), but purportedly they replaced BOTH sunroof assemblies - including the seals they seat in. No problem since (1-1/2 rainy years since).

Geneviere -

Quite a story (hadn't noticed your earlier postings)! You don't say what your "geographic area" is, so it's a bit difficult to make a specific recommendation. Obviously, multiple, irreparable brake "failures" (however you define them) would qualify for a vehicle replacement under almost any state's lemon law. Perhaps you need to have a convenient failure as you approach your dealer's showroom at high speed. Only kidding. Good luck getting this fixed - brakes aren't rocket science!

Ken in Seattle

hypov

Geneviere -
You mention "failure" as in the brakes, but you fail to describe how and when/circumstances the brakes weren't working. What was it doing?...

Oh, 3-5 months after you've bought your NEW '02 Outback; it's April '03. Seems you have the car for quite awhile now.

Please share with us the details of your experience(s).

-Dave

tidester

I think she's just venting and could probably use a little friendly guidance from the better informed.

.tide

hypov

First-
Please tone down your words. From the get go, you're shooting off in a rambling rage. I know you're angry, but that's not helping. Calm down.

Second-
Please, please, put some whites between paragraphs.

and Last,
which you have still not yet share with us.
Tell us more about your experience. If not to acquire assistance, at least will let other owner(s) know and understand what all your venting is about.

This much we know. Your brakes fail, which is as good as me complaining to you that I can't stop my car.

Can we start over?

-Dave

tidester

Okay, now that you have that out of your system, thanks for sharing your experiences. Now let's all proceed without the personal sniping and discuss Subaru Legacy/Outback (the TOPIC, btw!) and not each other (off topic, btw!).

tidester, host

zman3

First of all fedupobowner, I can sympathize with being frustrated regarding a vehicle. I've been there, done that. Additionally, a lot of us are less than thrilled with SOA and their responsiveness to issues.

Please do us a favor, however, and explain what you mean by brake failure. Did they go out, leaving no braking ability? Are you concerned about the lack of feel? Are they spongy? What exactly is the issue?

We do want to help.

hypov

I'll add to Karl's...
Did the ABS kick in? Was the road uneven/bumpy?

-Dave

hypov

2 brake failures within a week.
Are there other incidences?

OK, we're narrowing it down. It's intermittent and it is not a complete brake loss, otherwise you couldn't be here ;-).

Did you have to pump the brake pedal?

When the brakes do not fail, how does the pedal feel?

Did you feel the ABS kick in?

-Dave

ateixeira

Bad-mouthing a brand with vague references to your problems is trolling. Now you're beginning to offer more info and you're more likely to get information and help, despite your tone.

I'll invite you to read back a few hundred posts, look at how many people I've helped. Check the Problems topics too. They all had one thing in common - they were polite.

If the design was faulty they'd all do that, and they don't. My dad has an Outback like yours. We have a 2002 Legacy with the same hardware on yours, and I also have a Forester.

Subaru uses a dual-stage brake booster. Some call the feel "spongy", but it allows for smoother stops when you apply light pedal pressure, because only the first booster kicks in. Brake hard and the second kicks in. If you read reviews Subaru's brakes are consistently shorter than average for their respective class, so once you get used to the feel, they're very effective.

Bleeding them will not necessarily make them feel any different.

You are feeling the ABS kicking in too aggressively, so there are a couple of things you can try. First is to practice threshold braking, i.e. applying only enough pressure to stop without skidding and kicking in the ABS.

Second, you can remove the ABS fuse to at least help troubleshoot the problem. That's clearly not a permanent solution, but it will help you give more information to your dealer to help resolve your problem.

Finally, I suggest you work with your dealer and not against them. Choosing to not believe that they bled the brakes will not help.

Of course, check that all the tires are properly inflated, and that their circumferences are more or less equal (no more than 1/4" variation). ABS sensors look for differences in rotation to kick in.

If it does happen, pump the brake pedal once, as Dave suggested. That should stop the ABS from pulsing.

-juice

dougb10

You have been asked to explain the "total brake failure" many times.
You said "ZIPPO, no brakes at all, the car just kept sailing along even though my foot was on the brakes".
What did you hit that got you finally stopped?
What kind of damage or injuries?

I am getting a very fuzzy feeling that you are leaving something crucial out of this story.

dcm61

Have you been able to recreate the problem with the dealer or a factory rep? I know that manufacturers (ALL, including Subaru) can be difficult at times but believe it or not, they do try to work with customers. If the problem cannot be recreated while in the posession of the dealer, about the only thing to do is to try to establish a pattern as to when it happens (speed, temperature, moisture, uphill/downhill, curve, etc.) and what are the symptoms (brake pedal goes to the floor, pedal pulsates, etc.) and provide that information back to them.

I had a '96 and currently have an '03 (no problems to date). Also, my Mom has an '02 Outback will no problems. I'm not implying that your's doesn't have a problem, but instead implying that not all Outbacks have bad brakes, bad seats, etc.

As Karl and Dave (hypov) and others have said, we can work this out if you give us a little more information.

DaveM

grahampeters

G'day

The overall tone of this board (and indeed all Edmonds Town Hall pages) is one of good will and good manners. It is unfortunate that Genevieve has not recognized the tacit code of good behaviour that applies to all posters to these boards. Flaming over multiple boards with variations on the same theme has also annoyed some readers. Other users are, reasonably, offended by those lapses. I am sure it was not intentional and we can all forgive her some grumpiness. I am certain that it will not be repeated.

On occassion, each of us has purchased a product that fails to match our expectations. That may be through a defect in the product or some difference between our expectations and the product's performance. If the former, it is reasonable to seek recourse from the manufacturer/ supplier.

If the latter, we either have to recognize the difference and learn to live with it or seek to replace the product with one that more closely matches our requirements. However, we should recognize that it was our choice, not some third party's responsibility

In the present case, Genevieve has made assertions as to the performance of the brakes on her Outback although the detail of the apparent non-performance is unspecificed. She also seeks to personalize her dispute by referring to staff at the dealership and the SOA rep in derogatory terms.

It is unclear whether Genevieve's brake complaint reflects the designed progressive brake action (from the dual stage system which initially feels fairly soft but then becomes much stiffer) or a genuine failure of the braking system.

Given the breadth of experience shown on these boards over some years now, it seems that a brake failure is a very low probability event. I have noted some posters referring to the softness of the brakes but never any mention of any real failure. I therefore am very doubtful of the assertion that the brakes have failed. If they have in fact failed, that event should be reproducible.

I would anticipate that the caution felt by the Subaru agents may reflect a similar doubt.

Equally, the alleged failure to respond by Subaru of America appears unusual, given other experience of posters to these boards. From time to time, there have been problems with vehicles, sometimes not adequately addressed by the local agent and Subaru appear to have addressed each of these appropriately. That is not to say that every customer is happy with the outcome but the issues have been addressed on each occassion.

It appears unlikely that a genuine complaint to Subaru of America would not be addressed, based on that experience.

I work in a customer facing position. From time to time, I have customers whose expectations are unreasonable. Within reason, we will accommodate them but there are some customers whose demands are well beyond reasonable bounds and cannot be addressed. Commonly amongst these customers, I find that the difficulty stems from an inability to recognize the shortcomings in their own arguments or to compromise appropriately. Inevitably, any option offered to them, other than settlement on their exact terms, will not be acceptable. Emotionally, they will always feel a loser unless they win every point.

If they do win their argument, they will enjoy a smug sense of satisfaction and continue to complain about the process, feeling they have been hard done by on that count.

The supplier's response is frequently to agree to the customers immediate demand but to ensure that future demands are not met. Effectively, a customer who only sees a single transacation relationship will not benefit from a future favourable trading relationship.

For these rare individuals, there is limited merit in seeking to negotiate. They are unlikely to ever achieve a successful outcome and must seek appropriate professional advice. As a rule, I recommend against using lawyers, but for this personality type, it is the only viable course.

Accordingly, I believe that the sensible course to be followed is to approach a local consumer assistance group or your local attorney. If they can assist, they will.

If however, you are advised that you do not have an adequate cause of action, respect that advice and do not come wailing to the world. We will not believe you.

Cheers

Graham

ateixeira

Here you go:

http://www.safetyalerts.com/recall/a/02/v00148.htm

which means it is the brake master cylinder, not air in the lines. So the dealer *did* probably bleed the brakes. Perhaps the recall came in after you went in for service, and you didn't get the notice in the mail yet.

Snail mail is much slower than the internet.

Mystery solved. It affects 02/2003-03/2003 production only (check your door jamb). I'd pull the ABS fuse until you get it fixed.

-juice

tidester

fedup: You don't even know me or the circumstances or safety risks I've been put at because of Outback faulty designs...

This is your opportunity to tell us all about it!

We are most fortunate to have some very knowledgeable people in this forum and they are more than willing to share their wisdom and help out.

Just to remind everyone, disruptive and off topic messages are not permitted on the boards and will not be condoned. We all agreed to abide by the Terms of Use when we signed on to Town Hall.

Now ... back to our regularly scheduled program ...!

tidester, host

tidester

Be nice! :-)

tidester, host

ateixeira

You can also go to nhtsa.gov and search for campaign ID 02V079000. Took me about 15 seconds on their site to find it. I looked for Subaru, Outback, 2002, brakes...bingo.

-juice

reg37

My 98 Outback with auto transmission will not shift out of 1st gear until about 20 - 25 mph sometimes as high as 30 mph, (I have to really rev out the engine), then it goes into 3rd instead of 2nd gear. After it's shifted into 3rd If I move the shifter into 2nd it slips bad. This only happens when cold, Once it's warmed up, (about two or three minutes of driving), everything works fine. Does anyone have any experience with this type of problem?

subearu

Have you had the dealer take a look at the tranny? Could be just in need of a tranny fluid flush/fill, but it could also be an indication of something not communicating properly when cold (hydraulics?). I'd leave it for them overnight to be able to duplicate the problem.

-Brian

reg37

subearu, I had the fluid changed about 3 weeks ago, it was not a flush. When I had the fluid changed there was a very slight sound coming from the transmission, like a squeak / whine sound, the technicians could not hear it until they put it up on a lift, they said it was the planetary gears and I should not to be concerned about it unless it got much worse. They changed the fluid and put some Lube Guard in also. The sound completely went away. About two weeks later this new problem started, I don't know if they are related or not. I have read a few other posts where people had similar problems, all ended up getting new or rebuilt tranys except one that needed a new speed sensor.

subearu

since it was recently worked on (fluid changed), I'd go directly back to them and have them fix whatever is not right. Something definately is not 'normal' in there since the fluid change, possibly by their doing (?).

Is this a Subaru dealer/service place that did the fluid change?

-Brian

reg37

It was not a Subaru dealer that changed the fluid. It is a very good shop but they are not transmission experts, I really didn't know the sound was coming from the transmission at the time. I guess it's time to fork out some dough for a transmission expert.

ateixeira

Some shops have machines that force new ATF in and siphon the old ATF out. That completely replaces the fluid in the tranny. At this point I'd try something like that, it usually runs about $80 or so.

Their service probably left air pockets or something.

I'd reset the ECU while you're at it. Disconnect the negative battery terminal. Then step on the brakes until the brake light fades out. That kills any residual power, and the ECU loses its "memory". Reconnect the battery, start her up and let it idle until warm.

Hopefully it didn't already damage the gear teeth, but it might have. Even if that did happen, you can rebuild with a new gear set, but the labor gets costly.

-juice

nematode

What happens after the brakes fail? If its total brake failure (total loss of pressure) the ability to use your brakes should not return. The dealer should easily be able to reproduce the problem. If the problem is intermittent then you should retain legal council and see if you can have the car checked by an independent mechanic that knows Subarus. If there is a real problem, you identify it, you sue, you win.

By the way we have had tons of little problems with out 2k OB Ltd. Lots of trips back to the dealer in the first year. The Subaru quality control person was taking a nap they build ours. However, after all the problems were fixed its been trouble free for over 1 year.

lucien2

yea I've never had a problem either. The front seal went 2 months ago (big surprise) but SoA fixed it under warranty even though the car was technically out of warranty.

???

fibber2

The recall reports the condition as brakes that will not release - fluid pressure is still applied even when foot pressure is removed. Our new contributor is reporting no braking action at all - twice.

Steve

idahodoug

I would be interested in more details on the brake failures. Road conditions, what it felt like, how did the vehicle stop, was the vehicle damaged, etc. I don't want to cast aspersions on anyone, but the simple 1 sentence explanation with no details simply isn't enough. I am curious from a personal standpoint and also from a professional standpoint as someone with years of vehicle design and testing experience.

I'll look forward to this as well as the others who have asked for the same thing.

IdahoDoug

sebberry

Has anybody had any problems with the front passenger seat rubbing against the storage bin between the seats?

Mine seems to be making a slight contact, and the seat trim makes an annoying squeaking noise on rougher roads. I have taken it to the dealership once and they "adjusted it as much as they could", but it is still rubbing against it.

Next time you go for a drive, could you please have a quick look to see if it is making contact, and if not, how much space is there?

Again, it is the trim on the leather seat, so the cloth seats would probabally not suffer from the noise problem.

Thanks for your help

paisan

I too would be interested in a more in depth study of the circumstances. Questions I have:

Was it the ABS kicking in?
What speed were you going?
What road surface (bumpy, railroad tracks, gravel, smooth,etc)?
How did you stop? Did you smack into something, roll to a stop? pull the e-brake?
Did you immediately call subaru roadside assistance to come tow the vehicle or did you continue to drive it after having "total brake loss"?

If the dealer/manufacturer can't replicate the problem, how can you expect them to fix it other than trying various different fixes til they get it right? We've all had problems with warranty issues with all different manufacturers, but in general they will try to work with you to fix it, it's especially hard on intermittent problems.

Have you seen anger management? Hee hee

-mike

tkevinblanc

To play devil's advocate, since fedupowner doesn't look like she is coming back, if my brakes actually did fail even once, I wouldn't want the car fixed, especially if the dealer had trouble reproducing the failure.

I'd want it replaced. Or I'd want my money back.

Some problems don't have a good solution. Intermittent total brake failure would be one.

ateixeira

Sebastian: my Miata has leather and in certain positions it squeeked. Try some Lexol, and if that doesn't work, try a tiny amount of lithium grease, just a trace amount. It quieted my seats.

LOL mike.

-juice

paisan

total brake failure is rare. The only time I could see where total brake failure would occur would be if a line was severed (and even then you'd still have braking to the other axle) or if the booster exploded and lost it's fluid. Both of those situations would not be intermittent. It's not an electronic braking system ie: Brake by wire, where there could be an electrical glitch in the system.

If I had to hazzard a guess? He/She was driving too quickly over a rough surface and their abs kicked in, thereby leaving them feeling like they have no brake control, but in reality they did. I know the first few times this happened in my trooper i was freaked out by it. Then I realized I was going too quickly over bumps and slamming the brakes.

-mike

tkevinblanc

I'm completely in agreement.

I'm just saying.

I'd be FLIPPED out if I did actually experience total brake failure (foot to the floor, no reaction, maybe pump it and it comes back up, for instance. Well, come to think of it my 69 Saab 96 did that, but that's another story).

I would never want to drive the vehicle again, no matter what Subaru service said.

Juice, sorry I shouted the word flipped.

And I'm adding lots of white space, just for you. :0)

blackbean

I agree more information is needed to ascertain the circumstances surrounding the brake failure so that educated hypotheses can be formulated as to the casual nature of fedupobowners's problem. I also agree that we need to make every effort to be civil and polite on these boards, as we are all volunteers here.

My expereince with Subaru (as opposed to VW with my former Passat!) has been very positve. They replaced both front rotors on my 2002 OB LL Bean because I had a slight pulsing and vibration. No questions asked and a free rental car!

As far as the Master Cylinder recall, is that only for 4 cyl? I never heard anything about this for my H6.

Cheers,
Matt

fedupobowner2

I just had my rotors replaced also on my 2002 outback. It was under 36,000 miles, btw. It took a WHOLE LOT OF CONVINCING, ARGUING & COJOLING to make subaru agree to replace the front rotors. every time I would even lightly step on the brakes making the steering wheel shake violently!~ we had some very dangerous curvy roads here & besides steering/brakes are crucial to our safety & those of other drivers. After a stress-filled hour, they FINALLY agreed to replace the rotors at their expense. I have one question though, not a single mile was put on my car either before or after they serviced the brakes??? shouldn't they have at least done a decent test drive before they released the car to me?? I am just plain tired & fed up with subaru putting me in the role of test driver with their negligence service practices. Other people have this problem?
thanks for relating the fact you were even given a loaner to use previous poster. I have the extended warranty & they often insist I should be paying for rental cars on repairs done under warranty.... hmmmm. seems rather discriminatory, doesn't it? One owner has no problems getting rotors fixed, other owner has to fight tooth & nail to get same item fixed....

Sylvia

Just a quick review of the Member Agreement:

If you have an issue with another user, please take it to the Host(s) of the discussion or myself. We will address the issue or person.

Please don't take the issue or person up on the boards, it only detracts from the discussion.

Many, many thanks. Now continue on and enjoy your Outbacks, they are great vehicles!

lucien2

Graham has been on these boards for years. He is a model poster- the kind of contributor I wish I had the time, the thoughtfulness, and the command of the written word to emulate. I've been staying out of this, hard as it has been, mostly because I know Juice and Mike pretty well and, regardless of whose right, they don't always post with vulcan blood in their veins. No offense, guys.... =8^D

But Graham? Sorry, no, no one goes around describing him that way on my watch, not someone who never once bothered to engage this community as a community.

lucien2

Ok, got it, I didn't see that until I after I posted. I'm gonna go back over to the Crew pages now and forget about it.....

Sylvia

...I often encounter "slippage" (post slipping in while I am compiling one of my own) in the boards too.

tkevinblanc

Don't you see? You're doing it again.

Frankly, I have a wife and a daughter I love. I work for a woman. I have no issues with women (well, some mother-in-law issues, but let's not get into that).

The folks on this forum are, for the most part, Subaru admirers. They'll help (I've seen it), and they'll listen, and, with Subaru's demographic, if they didn't like women, well, they wouldn't like half the Subaru population.

You might not mean it, but your posts seem rude and not well thought out.

So, please, tell us, what does total brake failure mean? Did the car stop when you pumped the brakes? This is the first time you've mentioned shake and shimmy - that's a big problem that could affect braking terribly.

Why not just lay it out and see if you can get some help here?

rsholland

OK, I've been following your posts for a little while here. I've also been a poster here for several years. I can say without a doubt, of all the people who post here, juice is without a doubt the most reasonable, and rarely get his himself out of sorts; same with Graham. Everybody who is a "regular" here feels the same way.

You came in here as if you were Sherman marching through Georgia. One can only assume that your lousy relationship with your dealer, SOA, and now Edmunds, is self-inflicted. Maybe it's "you" who doesn't play well with others...

Bob

Sylvia

Please - let mgmt / Hosts handle this in email and not in the discussion. I'm sure we would all rather be back to our "regularly scheduled discussion".

I really appreciate it, thanks.

bat1161

I know that I have had a problem with the brakes in the past, but nothing as drastic as Geneviere is stating. I would have the brake pedal suddenly depress all the way to the floor while sitting at a light, then go back to normal. The dealer tried bleeding the brakes, but it did not help, and of course it never happened while they had the car. However, after having both the front and rear rotors replaced (for warpage) and new pads put on nothing has happened in the past 6000 miles of use.
    Geneviere, I think you will find the people on these boards to be quite knowledgeable. As for your problems with Subaru - what part of the country do you live in? Maybe someone here can recommend a dealer that we have found to go the extra mile in finding out what is wrong.

BTW- If I remember correctly, SOA recently changed their policy on loaners; it is now up to the individual dealership as to whether they will cover that or not.

Mark

Sylvia

Please check your email, thanks.

bat1161

Huh? How, by my relating a similar brake issue and asking what part of the country do you live in so that we may recommend a friendlier dealer for service, come across as a flame?
   I am sorry to hear about your Outback problems, especially as how I love the vehicle. That is why I, and others, are asking questions to try to help. I have had problems with the car, and have received insightful help here from other owners. That is what this forum is all about. Trying to discuss and help Subaru owners is what this site is all about.

Mark

Kirstie_H

Join us tonight, 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET for Town Hall Trivia Night and member-to-member chat – come test your knowledge and chat with fellow members!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

See you there!

bkaiser1

A few weeks ago I posted here (or on problems/solutions?) about my Dunlop SP Sport A2's becoming cupped after 10,000 miles and wanted to post another followup:

I took the car back to Discount Tire today at lunch to discuss the cupping and excessive tire wear (they were nearly worn out with only 17-18K on them). They agreed that with 3 rotations, 2 alignment checks, and regular pressure checks during that period, there was no logical reason for these tires to have worn this quickly. They offered to repurchase the tires for full price ($486) and give me any new tires at cost.

I wanted Michelins since I've always had good luck with that brand and they had the Energy MXV4 and the Pilot XGT H4 in stock. Either choice would run me about $60 out of pocket to replace the Dunlops. In spite of the possible handling advantages with the Pilots, I went with the Energy MXV4's because they have smaller tread blocks (which is something another tire store recommended that I look for in my next tires).

All said and done, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire -- I did not expect them to repurchase nearly bald tires with 17-18K miles on them! The new MXV4's felt great on the way back to work (dramatically quieter than the cupped Dunlops, much smoother riding on the highway, and finally no steering wheel vibration). We'll see how they hold up!

Brian

idahodoug

So - about 5 requests for an explanation of "brake failure" besides mine and.......nothing? From the disjointed discussion above, I'm guessing there were some deleted posts?

At any rate, I'd be interested in helping out if this info comes to pass.

IdahoDoug

nematode

at my records when I complained about the "smushy" brakes (before I knew it was inherent to the Subaru 2 stage system) they replaced the brake cables and some other parts for some reason. I dont count that trip back to the dealer as a fault of the car even though I still cant stand the OB brakes. For those who are interested the WRX has linear, as close to perfect for a below $50k car, brakes that they make. Subaru knows now to get the right feel but for some reason in the OB they are smushy. I hate smushy. However, the overall car is still a good value when compared to the big SUVs and minivans we looked at when we were buying. If we were looking again I doubt we would buy the OB again but its still a decent car. There are too many other choices with AWD and lots of room in the $30-40k now.

jregen7243

I recently sold my '00 Outback Sedan, but I remember maybe about 10 times in the 3 years/43000 miles that the brake pedal went all the way down. The only times that it happened was when I was sitting at a red light, with the A/C on, and it was extremely hot outside. It never happened otherwise.

-Jon