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We had a "ceiling" leak in our [new] 2K Ltd wagon that showed up the first rainy winter after we bought it. I can't swear to what was done (it's the boss' car and she took it to be fixed), but purportedly they replaced BOTH sunroof assemblies - including the seals they seat in. No problem since (1-1/2 rainy years since).
Geneviere -
Quite a story (hadn't noticed your earlier postings)! You don't say what your "geographic area" is, so it's a bit difficult to make a specific recommendation. Obviously, multiple, irreparable brake "failures" (however you define them) would qualify for a vehicle replacement under almost any state's lemon law. Perhaps you need to have a convenient failure as you approach your dealer's showroom at high speed. Only kidding. Good luck getting this fixed - brakes aren't rocket science!
Ken in Seattle
You mention "failure" as in the brakes, but you fail to describe how and when/circumstances the brakes weren't working. What was it doing?...
Oh, 3-5 months after you've bought your NEW '02 Outback; it's April '03. Seems you have the car for quite awhile now.
Please share with us the details of your experience(s).
-Dave
.tide
Please tone down your words. From the get go, you're shooting off in a rambling rage. I know you're angry, but that's not helping. Calm down.
Second-
Please, please, put some whites between paragraphs.
and Last,
which you have still not yet share with us.
Tell us more about your experience. If not to acquire assistance, at least will let other owner(s) know and understand what all your venting is about.
This much we know. Your brakes fail, which is as good as me complaining to you that I can't stop my car.
Can we start over?
-Dave
tidester, host
Please do us a favor, however, and explain what you mean by brake failure. Did they go out, leaving no braking ability? Are you concerned about the lack of feel? Are they spongy? What exactly is the issue?
We do want to help.
Did the ABS kick in? Was the road uneven/bumpy?
-Dave
Are there other incidences?
OK, we're narrowing it down. It's intermittent and it is not a complete brake loss, otherwise you couldn't be here ;-).
Did you have to pump the brake pedal?
When the brakes do not fail, how does the pedal feel?
Did you feel the ABS kick in?
-Dave
I'll invite you to read back a few hundred posts, look at how many people I've helped. Check the Problems topics too. They all had one thing in common - they were polite.
If the design was faulty they'd all do that, and they don't. My dad has an Outback like yours. We have a 2002 Legacy with the same hardware on yours, and I also have a Forester.
Subaru uses a dual-stage brake booster. Some call the feel "spongy", but it allows for smoother stops when you apply light pedal pressure, because only the first booster kicks in. Brake hard and the second kicks in. If you read reviews Subaru's brakes are consistently shorter than average for their respective class, so once you get used to the feel, they're very effective.
Bleeding them will not necessarily make them feel any different.
You are feeling the ABS kicking in too aggressively, so there are a couple of things you can try. First is to practice threshold braking, i.e. applying only enough pressure to stop without skidding and kicking in the ABS.
Second, you can remove the ABS fuse to at least help troubleshoot the problem. That's clearly not a permanent solution, but it will help you give more information to your dealer to help resolve your problem.
Finally, I suggest you work with your dealer and not against them. Choosing to not believe that they bled the brakes will not help.
Of course, check that all the tires are properly inflated, and that their circumferences are more or less equal (no more than 1/4" variation). ABS sensors look for differences in rotation to kick in.
If it does happen, pump the brake pedal once, as Dave suggested. That should stop the ABS from pulsing.
-juice
You said "ZIPPO, no brakes at all, the car just kept sailing along even though my foot was on the brakes".
What did you hit that got you finally stopped?
What kind of damage or injuries?
I am getting a very fuzzy feeling that you are leaving something crucial out of this story.
I had a '96 and currently have an '03 (no problems to date). Also, my Mom has an '02 Outback will no problems. I'm not implying that your's doesn't have a problem, but instead implying that not all Outbacks have bad brakes, bad seats, etc.
As Karl and Dave (hypov) and others have said, we can work this out if you give us a little more information.
DaveM
The overall tone of this board (and indeed all Edmonds Town Hall pages) is one of good will and good manners. It is unfortunate that Genevieve has not recognized the tacit code of good behaviour that applies to all posters to these boards. Flaming over multiple boards with variations on the same theme has also annoyed some readers. Other users are, reasonably, offended by those lapses. I am sure it was not intentional and we can all forgive her some grumpiness. I am certain that it will not be repeated.
On occassion, each of us has purchased a product that fails to match our expectations. That may be through a defect in the product or some difference between our expectations and the product's performance. If the former, it is reasonable to seek recourse from the manufacturer/ supplier.
If the latter, we either have to recognize the difference and learn to live with it or seek to replace the product with one that more closely matches our requirements. However, we should recognize that it was our choice, not some third party's responsibility
In the present case, Genevieve has made assertions as to the performance of the brakes on her Outback although the detail of the apparent non-performance is unspecificed. She also seeks to personalize her dispute by referring to staff at the dealership and the SOA rep in derogatory terms.
It is unclear whether Genevieve's brake complaint reflects the designed progressive brake action (from the dual stage system which initially feels fairly soft but then becomes much stiffer) or a genuine failure of the braking system.
Given the breadth of experience shown on these boards over some years now, it seems that a brake failure is a very low probability event. I have noted some posters referring to the softness of the brakes but never any mention of any real failure. I therefore am very doubtful of the assertion that the brakes have failed. If they have in fact failed, that event should be reproducible.
I would anticipate that the caution felt by the Subaru agents may reflect a similar doubt.
Equally, the alleged failure to respond by Subaru of America appears unusual, given other experience of posters to these boards. From time to time, there have been problems with vehicles, sometimes not adequately addressed by the local agent and Subaru appear to have addressed each of these appropriately. That is not to say that every customer is happy with the outcome but the issues have been addressed on each occassion.
It appears unlikely that a genuine complaint to Subaru of America would not be addressed, based on that experience.
I work in a customer facing position. From time to time, I have customers whose expectations are unreasonable. Within reason, we will accommodate them but there are some customers whose demands are well beyond reasonable bounds and cannot be addressed. Commonly amongst these customers, I find that the difficulty stems from an inability to recognize the shortcomings in their own arguments or to compromise appropriately. Inevitably, any option offered to them, other than settlement on their exact terms, will not be acceptable. Emotionally, they will always feel a loser unless they win every point.
If they do win their argument, they will enjoy a smug sense of satisfaction and continue to complain about the process, feeling they have been hard done by on that count.
The supplier's response is frequently to agree to the customers immediate demand but to ensure that future demands are not met. Effectively, a customer who only sees a single transacation relationship will not benefit from a future favourable trading relationship.
For these rare individuals, there is limited merit in seeking to negotiate. They are unlikely to ever achieve a successful outcome and must seek appropriate professional advice. As a rule, I recommend against using lawyers, but for this personality type, it is the only viable course.
Accordingly, I believe that the sensible course to be followed is to approach a local consumer assistance group or your local attorney. If they can assist, they will.
If however, you are advised that you do not have an adequate cause of action, respect that advice and do not come wailing to the world. We will not believe you.
Cheers
Graham
http://www.safetyalerts.com/recall/a/02/v00148.htm
which means it is the brake master cylinder, not air in the lines. So the dealer *did* probably bleed the brakes. Perhaps the recall came in after you went in for service, and you didn't get the notice in the mail yet.
Snail mail is much slower than the internet.
Mystery solved. It affects 02/2003-03/2003 production only (check your door jamb). I'd pull the ABS fuse until you get it fixed.
-juice
This is your opportunity to tell us all about it!
We are most fortunate to have some very knowledgeable people in this forum and they are more than willing to share their wisdom and help out.
Just to remind everyone, disruptive and off topic messages are not permitted on the boards and will not be condoned. We all agreed to abide by the Terms of Use when we signed on to Town Hall.
Now ... back to our regularly scheduled program ...!
tidester, host
tidester, host
-juice
-Brian
Is this a Subaru dealer/service place that did the fluid change?
-Brian
Their service probably left air pockets or something.
I'd reset the ECU while you're at it. Disconnect the negative battery terminal. Then step on the brakes until the brake light fades out. That kills any residual power, and the ECU loses its "memory". Reconnect the battery, start her up and let it idle until warm.
Hopefully it didn't already damage the gear teeth, but it might have. Even if that did happen, you can rebuild with a new gear set, but the labor gets costly.
-juice
By the way we have had tons of little problems with out 2k OB Ltd. Lots of trips back to the dealer in the first year. The Subaru quality control person was taking a nap they build ours. However, after all the problems were fixed its been trouble free for over 1 year.
???
Steve
I'll look forward to this as well as the others who have asked for the same thing.
IdahoDoug
Mine seems to be making a slight contact, and the seat trim makes an annoying squeaking noise on rougher roads. I have taken it to the dealership once and they "adjusted it as much as they could", but it is still rubbing against it.
Next time you go for a drive, could you please have a quick look to see if it is making contact, and if not, how much space is there?
Again, it is the trim on the leather seat, so the cloth seats would probabally not suffer from the noise problem.
Thanks for your help
Was it the ABS kicking in?
What speed were you going?
What road surface (bumpy, railroad tracks, gravel, smooth,etc)?
How did you stop? Did you smack into something, roll to a stop? pull the e-brake?
Did you immediately call subaru roadside assistance to come tow the vehicle or did you continue to drive it after having "total brake loss"?
If the dealer/manufacturer can't replicate the problem, how can you expect them to fix it other than trying various different fixes til they get it right? We've all had problems with warranty issues with all different manufacturers, but in general they will try to work with you to fix it, it's especially hard on intermittent problems.
Have you seen anger management? Hee hee
-mike
I'd want it replaced. Or I'd want my money back.
Some problems don't have a good solution. Intermittent total brake failure would be one.
LOL mike.
-juice
If I had to hazzard a guess? He/She was driving too quickly over a rough surface and their abs kicked in, thereby leaving them feeling like they have no brake control, but in reality they did. I know the first few times this happened in my trooper i was freaked out by it. Then I realized I was going too quickly over bumps and slamming the brakes.
-mike
I'm just saying.
I'd be FLIPPED out if I did actually experience total brake failure (foot to the floor, no reaction, maybe pump it and it comes back up, for instance. Well, come to think of it my 69 Saab 96 did that, but that's another story).
I would never want to drive the vehicle again, no matter what Subaru service said.
Juice, sorry I shouted the word flipped.
And I'm adding lots of white space, just for you. :0)
My expereince with Subaru (as opposed to VW with my former Passat!) has been very positve. They replaced both front rotors on my 2002 OB LL Bean because I had a slight pulsing and vibration. No questions asked and a free rental car!
As far as the Master Cylinder recall, is that only for 4 cyl? I never heard anything about this for my H6.
Cheers,
Matt
thanks for relating the fact you were even given a loaner to use previous poster. I have the extended warranty & they often insist I should be paying for rental cars on repairs done under warranty.... hmmmm. seems rather discriminatory, doesn't it? One owner has no problems getting rotors fixed, other owner has to fight tooth & nail to get same item fixed....
If you have an issue with another user, please take it to the Host(s) of the discussion or myself. We will address the issue or person.
Please don't take the issue or person up on the boards, it only detracts from the discussion.
Many, many thanks. Now continue on and enjoy your Outbacks, they are great vehicles!
But Graham? Sorry, no, no one goes around describing him that way on my watch, not someone who never once bothered to engage this community as a community.
Frankly, I have a wife and a daughter I love. I work for a woman. I have no issues with women (well, some mother-in-law issues, but let's not get into that).
The folks on this forum are, for the most part, Subaru admirers. They'll help (I've seen it), and they'll listen, and, with Subaru's demographic, if they didn't like women, well, they wouldn't like half the Subaru population.
You might not mean it, but your posts seem rude and not well thought out.
So, please, tell us, what does total brake failure mean? Did the car stop when you pumped the brakes? This is the first time you've mentioned shake and shimmy - that's a big problem that could affect braking terribly.
Why not just lay it out and see if you can get some help here?
You came in here as if you were Sherman marching through Georgia. One can only assume that your lousy relationship with your dealer, SOA, and now Edmunds, is self-inflicted. Maybe it's "you" who doesn't play well with others...
Bob
I really appreciate it, thanks.
Geneviere, I think you will find the people on these boards to be quite knowledgeable. As for your problems with Subaru - what part of the country do you live in? Maybe someone here can recommend a dealer that we have found to go the extra mile in finding out what is wrong.
BTW- If I remember correctly, SOA recently changed their policy on loaners; it is now up to the individual dealership as to whether they will cover that or not.
Mark
I am sorry to hear about your Outback problems, especially as how I love the vehicle. That is why I, and others, are asking questions to try to help. I have had problems with the car, and have received insightful help here from other owners. That is what this forum is all about. Trying to discuss and help Subaru owners is what this site is all about.
Mark
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I took the car back to Discount Tire today at lunch to discuss the cupping and excessive tire wear (they were nearly worn out with only 17-18K on them). They agreed that with 3 rotations, 2 alignment checks, and regular pressure checks during that period, there was no logical reason for these tires to have worn this quickly. They offered to repurchase the tires for full price ($486) and give me any new tires at cost.
I wanted Michelins since I've always had good luck with that brand and they had the Energy MXV4 and the Pilot XGT H4 in stock. Either choice would run me about $60 out of pocket to replace the Dunlops. In spite of the possible handling advantages with the Pilots, I went with the Energy MXV4's because they have smaller tread blocks (which is something another tire store recommended that I look for in my next tires).
All said and done, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire -- I did not expect them to repurchase nearly bald tires with 17-18K miles on them! The new MXV4's felt great on the way back to work (dramatically quieter than the cupped Dunlops, much smoother riding on the highway, and finally no steering wheel vibration). We'll see how they hold up!
Brian
At any rate, I'd be interested in helping out if this info comes to pass.
IdahoDoug
-Jon