Subaru Legacy/Outback

c_hunter

I shopped the CR-V (1st gen) in 2000 when I bought my first Outback, and again in 2002 (2nd gen) when we bought our Forester. The 2nd gen CR-V is much improved over the first gen, but I still have the same complaints: poor handling, underpowered, noisy, and bare interior. I'm a former Honda owner (had 3 of them over about 10 years) that now owns three Subarus. I still have a lot of loyalty to Honda, but Subarus beat out the CR-V twice for me! Since I have owned Subarus (for a grand total of 62,000 miles of driving) they have been completely reliable. As good as any of my Hondas were.

If car-like handling, a quiet ride, better power, and a nicer interior matter, there's no doubt in my mind that the Outback is a better choice than the CR-V. But, that should be obvious to anyone who test drives both vehicles. They are very different.

Craig

breckco

I write this as I'm about to get some updated clutch components installed in our 03 OB 5spd (thanks for the responses about my clutch chatter concern).

With that said, I would still choose the OB over the CRV. I just traded in a 2001 Civic that was a major disappointment. Numerous visits to the dealer for everything from SRS lights to several rattles and quite a bit more. We've owned about 6 or 7 Honda's previously that were excellent vehicles but I feel Honda is slipping (not to mention a "what were they thinking" Accord redesign). Subaru's feel much more solid to me and as someone else mentioned Honda's have one of the weakest warranty's of all major manufacturers. That combined with a refined all wheel drive system and a high level of standard content makes Subaru's a great choice.

I still think Honda makes very good cars and despite a poor experience would consider one in the future but I look forward to many years with our OB.

jfl

In my experience, Honda builds cars with reliable drivetrains. The rest of the car falls apart. '90 Accord - driver's door latch trim, heater control knob, sunvisor hinge, etc.

'81 Civic - water pump replacement required dismantling the whole front side of the engine.

Jim

sebberry

I have owned an Outback H3 3.0 wagon, (Canadian LL Bean without the badging) for the past 6 months. I recently took the new Accord V6 for a test drive to kill some time, and 1/2 an hour with it made me run back to the OB and apologize perfously for cheating on it.

The Accord, while a nice vehicle on its own, had some things about it that I thought were odd. First of, I am quite tall and sit a fair distance from the wheel. In this position, I had trouble reaching the radio and HVAC controls.

I also noticed that the audio system tweeters were mounted in the dashboard facing up at the windshield, and the treble was a little too harsh because of it.

The real test was in handling. I was at a stop sign making a left turn onto a highway onramp, the turn was about 45 degrees back onto itself, so quite tight, and when I pushed the car out of the turn, it was like a big, dumb dog trying to turn a corner too quickly on a hardwood floor. This was with traction control on.

Conclusion: The Outback has much better ergonomics and better handling than the Accord. Subaru designers have really made the effort to reduce the frequency of "Why'd it get put there like that?" questions about it's designs.

Only if it would have the same off the line responsiveness of the Accord.

I really am looking forward to test driving the next design of the OB, hopefully it will be again based on the new Legacy.

Anybody know of a turbocharger available for the H6?

Adios

vamoodys

We got the Outback! An Outback base wagon, auto, White Frost Pearl color, with all weather package, autodimming mirror/compass, and security system upgrade. Got it at Stohlman Subaru in Tyson's Corner, VA. Thanks for everyone's comments and input on my original query. My husband is happy with the Outback for now, as long as we can replace our second car (my old Civic) with another Honda in a few year's time...

nygreg

Congratulations! Nice color and a similar choice in options as my 01 winestone. After a few driving experiences in bad weather, your husband might consider replacing the Civic with another Subaru. I know when my wife is driving in bad weather (especially in snow), I feel better if she is in the OB.

Greg

storyteller

I need help. The new/used OB I got a month ago came with a radio that had no CD player, so before I'd even driven the vehicle a week I replaced the head unit with one recommended for reliability and excellent station acquisition. Alas, station acquisition is dreadful. I can't pull in stations that are only a few miles from my home, whereas my last vehicle got clear signals over distances of hundreds of miles. So something is wrong. All evidence points toward either no antenna or an inadequate antenna.

The '02 OB has a printed antenna. Is this a design flaw with this vehicle so that the best I can hope for is pathetic, short-range reception? Or do you other OB owners get decent reception? In that case, the connection between the antenna and head unit might be loose or something.

Steve

ateixeira

You sure you plugged the antennae lead all the way into the new head unit? Was the reception with the old stereo just as bad?

I wonder if, during the install, you might have pulled a harness loose.

-juice

storyteller

Thanks, Juice. I didn't have the car long enough to have any sense of what the reception was like before I had the new radio/CD unit installed. Yes, it is possible the connection between radio and antenna is not good now. I take it from your question that terrible radio reception is not a known issue with OBs that have that antenna printed on the back window. I've contacted the company that did the installation, and they say some cars (particularly station wagons) are designed in ways that do not permit good radio reception, although they are willing to look into what happened with my particular car.

Steve

fibber2

I too was initially skeptical about the side window antenna ('02 OBW), but it works great. FM reception is good, and even the AM news station from NYC (WCBS) comes in great 75 miles north in the Hudson Valley. Unfortunately, sounds like something got damaged in the head swap??

Steve

ateixeira

If it were a common problem, others would be talking about it. My dad has not complained about his radio.

-juice

storyteller

You give me hope. If one OB with that antenna gets decent reception, mine can be made to do the same. I'll bet the antenna connection isn't firmly seated in the head unit. Great! That can be fixed. They might simply have forgotten.

Steve

mortpeaberry

as I laid in bed last i was pondering the difference of wear between idling for an hour or two (like when you've been driving the infant around and are now just to tired to drive any more, but your wife is getting the first two ours of sleep in days) and driving in stop and go traffic.
I couldn't figure any real difference, but I did finally fall asleep.
steve-v
santa cruz

jlemole

Steve,

I haven't found a problem with the in-glass antenna on my 02 OB. I listen to a local New Jersey news and talk station and have no problems getting good reception throughout the NYC metro area. Have the installer check the connection again.

slickdog

My wife and I have decided to replace her aging vehicle with a used Legacy/Outback wagon, and I'm doing some preliminary shopping on the local dealer sites. It seems that '00 Outbacks are increasing in numbers this month (I'm guessing many are off-lease), but there are still some decent '99 models to be had.

From what I can gather on edmunds.com and other sites, there were some positive changes made in the '00 models that interest me, but being the frugal buyer that I am, I'm also very tempted by the significantly lower prices on the '99's!

My question is, aside from the obvious (and well documented) changes between the two model years, are there any significant differences I'm not likely to find in my research or on my test drives? Is there anything Subaru did well in '99 that they screwed up in '00, or didn't do well in '99 that they got right in '00? Reliability/driveability differences would be most important to me, but I'll take any info you've got.

I have one specific question, too. I can't find many reasons not to like these cars, but one I have identified is the lack of window frames on the doors. That just seems like a bad idea to me. Has anyone out there ever had nasty problems with those frameless door windows?

Sorry if these topics have already been discussed several times, but searching the board hasn't produced much information for me thus far. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide!

jlemole

Slickdog: I'm sure some of the more experienced owners can give you great advice on any differences between the 99 and the 00. I'm not there quite yet! The frameless doors, however, are a good thing if you ask me (and I think others as well). The visibility is better, they look nicer, and I'm not familiar with any particular mechanical problems other than keeping the seals well-treated.

JON
02 OBW

ateixeira

2000 meant a swap to the Phase II engine, which does appear to have fewer problems with gaskets and O-rings. It also has more torque. The car itself is usefully roomier.

The 99 is smaller but also lighter, and as you said it's cheaper.

I'd pick the 2000 for the space and structural upgrades, but then again I have 2 kids. If I were single or we had an empty nest, I might pick the lighter 99.

-juice

slickdog

Didn't think of the visibility aspect, jlemole. There's a vote for no frames. Just what I needed, because I couldn't think of anything myself.

juice, you've got some interesting points as well. I'm all for better gaskets and o-rings. My wife is driving a Taurus right now, which is notorious for bad gaskets.

Furthermore, I didn't realize the '99 was actually smaller and lighter. It's hard to tell when you don't sit in one every day, and sometimes the first impressions one gets during the brief visit to a dealer lot can be tough to compare. I'm in the two kid category myself, so larger is definitely better.

While I've got your attention, let me pose one additional question. In general, how do you feel about Legacy L wagon vs. Outback wagon? Reason I ask is because I've come across an '02 Legacy which is actually cheaper than all of the '00 Outbacks I've seen. This seems odd given the fact that it is two years newer and has a lot less miles, but perhaps the dealer is having trouble moving the Legacy off the lot. Aside from the obvious differences (like wheel size and ground clearance), is the Outback really just more different in form than function? My wife is probably never going to go off-road with whatever we buy, and I'm certainly not hung up on having something that looks like it's rough and ready to do so.

paisan

If you have an "in-glass" antenna and connect up an aftermarket stereo, you probably will need to take the "power" lead wire and connect it up to the wiring harness. The in-glass antennas have a booster that is run by the "power antenna" lead. Most people don't connect this up if they don't see a power antenna in the car. It should be one of the leads from the new stereo and that will get connected to the "power antenna" lead on the wiring harness.

-mike

ateixeira

We have an 02 Legacy, and like it a lot. That's the 3rd model year for that body style, so the bugs are worked out.

You only get 15" rims, but still, you could pay for 16"s with the savings.

-juice

bkaiser1

About the only mechanical difference between the 2002 Legacy L and the 2000 Outback is the availability of a rear LSD on the Outbacks...it's not available on the Legacy L models, but it's not really a major difference. In 00, the LSD was optional on the Outbacks with the All Weather package, then it became standard on all outbacks in 2001. Otherwise, there is VERY little that separate the Legacy and the Outback. In driving the 2 before I bought, the Legacy felt a little peppier to me than my Outback, but they are pretty much a wash.

Brian

storyteller

Thanks, Mike. Man, that's a suggestion I never would have thought of.

Steve

paisan

on my Trooper, so figure it might work on the subies too.

-mike

orangelebaron

http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/gt/main.html
http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/bt/index_f.html
Finally...a sleeker, cooler, more masculine Legacy

You will have to click around to see the galleries of pics.

rob999

WOW! This is one of the most appealing designs for a car web site I've seen. Wish I could read Japanese!

Plus, I love the look of the new Legacy sedan - I'm sure this will be a winner.

Really interested to see if Subaru goes back to a single standard moonroof. I'm also hoping they offer wagons with a monochrome finish with the more powerful H6 and/or turbo H4 engines.

dcm61

"Really interested to see if Subaru goes back to a single standard moonroof. I'm also hoping they offer wagons with a monochrome finish with the more powerful H6 and/or turbo H4 engines."

Legacy wagon will have a large single tilt/slide moonroof.

H6 is rumoured to have 247 HP and a 2.5L H4 Turbo is on it's way (for at least the Legacy).

DaveM

fibber2

Sounds like you and your wife are having a tough few days. Sorry to hear it, and hope your babies sleep patterns resolve.

When sitting, only the engine is working (loafing). Wear is pretty minimal. Stop and Go overworks the entire system. Tranny is up/down shifting at a fast pace, generating lots of damaging heat. I would rather be sitting (and sleeping along with wife and child...).

Steve

ateixeira

Yep, the Legacy wagon will get a big moonroof, and while it doesn't look quite as big as the Forester's, but still very nice sized.

The sedan gets a normal sized single moonroof.

-juice

robr2

I had been following the Subaru topics here for a while but decided that the non sliding moonroof was a deal breaker for me.

I hope that the low roofline of the new Legacy wagon in Japan will carry over to the US. But I worry that since the Outback represents greater sales than the Legacy and current Legacy wagon is based on the Outback roof profile, would the US plant make 2 different rooflines? I certainly hope so.

rob999

I would imagine that if they go with a single moonroof for the Legacy wagon it would carry over to the new Outback, just as it did in the previous body style.

Although I purchased an Outback in 2001, I am much more enamored with the "Touring Wagon" concept promised in the new B4 version. Monochrome finish, single moonroof and a strong engine are what I'd hope for in my next wagon, be it a Legacy, Mazda6 or Saab-95 (nix Passat - one was enough). I do hope they include some sort of Euro-rails for the wagon roof - I use mine all the time for skis, kayak and an occasional Home Depot run.

robr2

IIRC, the Outback was a package offered on the Legacy wagon with the low roof originally. When the Legacy was redesigned and the Outback was released as its own model, both went to the high roof.

My concern is that the Outback has greater sales in North America. I would presume that the Outback will also be redesigne and that a new Outback design with a higher roof (more SUV like) would lead the styling cues. Just my thoughts.

Was the prior JDM Legacy a low or high roof? The website already reflects the new model.

dcm61

The '95 Legacy Outback was simply a trim package offered on the Legacy L wagon.

Starting in '96, the Legacy Outback had a raised roof, raised supension, larger tires, etc. The '96 to '99 Legacy retained the flat roof.

Starting in '00, all Legacy and Outback wagons used a raised roof.

My guess is that all USDM will use the same roof and the roof will be "flat" and use the large single moonroof.

The prior JDM Legacy and Lancaster (Outback) used a raised roof.

For you trivia buffs, there were 4 special edition wagons offered in '94. The Legacy GT wagon used a raised roof. There was also a Sun Sport edition (GX) (FWD w/ moonroof), Alpine Sport edition (Mi) (AWD w/ Cold Weather Package) and an Outdoor edition (Ti).

DaveM

robr2

Was it the Partly Cloudy with a Chance of Showers Edition??

dcm61

I edited my post. You were close, it was the Outdoor edition.

DaveM

slickdog

Thanks for all the info, guys. Sounds like the difference between Legacy and Outback is pretty small considering the price jump. Maybe it's just simple economics, as I don't see nearly as many Legacy L models out there on the roads so maybe the demand for them is a lot less than for the Outbacks.

None of the '00 Outbacks I'm seeing have the limited-slip diffy either, so there's one less thing they have over the Legacy L. Personally, I'm leaning toward making a play for the newer vehicle with less miles at the lower price. Maybe I just need to get the wife out on the lot and see if she has a strong feeling about one or the other. After all, she's going to drive it!

otis123

Saturday night it was pouring in the NYC area. I drove from lower Manhattan to Queens back to the city and up to No. Westchester (a little over an hour drive). I mean it was pouring something wicked - urban flooding everywhere. Most of the highways in the city were flooded - especially the left lane of the FDR and the Deagan. My Bean with her Michelin Pilot Sport A/S's didn't hydroplane once - not once - traveling 55-70 mph! All 4 planted like dry pavement.

The original Firestones would have hydroplaned several times, and my Accord would have been skating most of the time. But this combination is amazing - the weight of the car (and the AWD, of course) and the design of the tires. The tires just suck up water and spit it out. I drove like a tank - flying by SUVs, other AWD cars, etc. No one was in the left lane.

I can't describe the feeling. Total confidence. Invincible!

Except my right upper arm is still killing me. My wife kept hitting me and screaming SLOW DOWN! But after a while, even she commented how the car wasn't hydroplaning everytime we went through water...

I just hope the tires last to at least 30K...

Ralph

rob999

Ralph - If they don't last until 30K it's because you've been thrashing on them! :^)

I'm happy with the choice of the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S, too. Good snow and rain traction, plus it sails around hiway ramps at speeds that the Firestones would've broken loose. I tend to drive faster now, too. Gotta watch it!

otis123

You sure do! Especially when you switch to a non-AWD car (double whammy).

Can't wait to test them in the snow. Well, I take that back...I can wait since it still doesn't feel like spring around here, yet - never mind summer! I can wait for winter!!

The tires are amazing! Did I say that already? ;-)

Ralph

ateixeira

After all, she's going to drive it!

LOL, Richard!

They've shown the future Legacy, but not the Outback. Will it be similar, or have a raised roof, we'll have to wait and see. If they want to differentiate more, and I would think so, then they may want a raised roof.

For now we're just speculating.

-juice

subearu

If you see that a '00 Outback has the heated windshield wiper area (elements under the wiper surface on the glass), then it DOES have the limited slip diffy. It was packaged together that year.

-Brian

nygreg

so you guys really like the tire? What kind of life do you project you will get? I noticed yesterday that my Sport A2s are down to the wear bars mainly in the center and I might be replacing them a little earlier than anticipating. How much did you pay for them? Thanks.

Greg

nygreg

just checked the price of the Pilot at tirerack. That is one expensive tire.

Greg

larryinohio

I've had trouble with the engine starting, especially after a wet spell. Sometimes it can take up to ten minutes to start and will smell like turpentine once it does start. All of this continues to happen after a major 120,000 service costing way too much! Also the engine wants to speed up and slow down with the RPM jumping all over the place, This can happen sitting still or driving. Even more disturbing, sometimes when driving it seems to want to stick in third gear (this car is an automatic). I've had no luck with any of the subaru people so thought I'd post this and see what the "real minds" think. This is our fourth subaru in the last twenty years and never had any of these problems. But...this is the first automatic. Thanks, Larry

ajm831

Just saw a list of the vehicles with the most complaints to the NHTSA- the so called "lemon list". The Legacy is number 9 on the list and the Forrester was number 18(the Passat was 13). I'm surprised. How do we who love our Subies and THINK that they are reliable explain that away?

cptplt

do you have a link?

NHTSA complaints generally have to do with perceived safety problems and not anything per se to do with reliability. I'm sure the WRX will end up on that list soon too as every other person at nasioc is sending in a complaint about the ABS!

nygreg

if it has to do more with initial quality rather than longer term reliability. OBs have ranked low in IQ but good long term. That seems to be my experience. As my OB ages (now 45K miles) it seems to be running better and better with less and less issues.

Greg

ajm831

the local Pittsburgh tv station has it on its website:http://kdka.com/consumer/local_story_154174957.html

ateixeira

Larry: did they change the plug wires at that service? If they're original they are past due for a change.

I'd try an ECU reset. Disconnect the negative battery terminal, then hit the brakes until the brake light fades. That kills any residual power.

Then reconnect, start her up and let her idle. If you have an alarm have the key fob handy.

Check those two things and keep in touch, hopefully we can help resolve this.

For the tranny, you could try an ATF flush (not just drain and fill), if you haven't already. At that age you may be due for a rebuild, though.

-juice

ateixeira

Honda Civic? A lemon? OK, a few initial recalls, sure, but a lemon?

Toyota Highlander? The very reliable RAV4? Prius #2 on the list?

I'm kind of shocked. I wonder how they measure that.

One major inconsistency, why is Escape the worst lemon, and the Tribute not even make the list? That just doesn't add up.

Found this link later in that same article:

http://www.lemonlaw.com/bestbuys.html

They recommend the Lumina and the Silverado. OK, whatever. Consumer Reports has the Silverado as one of the worst vehicles overall in their reliability survey.

-juice

paddler3

I'm shopping for a 2003 OB. With Subaru increasing the dealer cash for June, it seems like a good time to buy.

Which one should I purchase? Any insights from 2003 owners???

Thanks!