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Subaru Legacy/Outback

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    rmanleyrmanley Member Posts: 8
    Thanks for the feedback on the rustproofing/scotchguard issue.

    Now I have one other pricing question which has managed to pop up on at least two of the offers I am getting.

    It appears that two of the Subaru dealers are including a "Doc Fee" in their price total which is about $190 to $200 extra.

    I've pressed them to explain what this fee covers. One dealer told me, "Almost all dealers in the South East charge for documentation. They probably just haven't told you about them yet. We prefer to be completely open about our pricing so that there are no surprises at the time of delivery. It is simply a charge for processing the purchase and its documentation. Financing companies call them closing fees or acquisition fees, dealers call them documentation fees. They are uniformly charged to each client, regardless of the value of the vehicle they are purchasing."

    Another dealer told me, "Doc fee is the documentation fee that is charged for doing all of the state and federal paperwork."

    Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but it seems like $190 is a little steep to charge for filling out some paperwork. In our area, most commercial tax preparors charge about a third of that for doing people's state and federal taxes and these tax preparors probable have to do quite a bit more thinking and computing to fill out their forms.

    What are your collective thoughts on this "Doc fee?" Is it legit?

    Rob M.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bottom line is that it increases your price. I don't think they'd ever remove it, but see if other dealers don't assess such a fee.

    -juice
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    kmcleankmclean Member Posts: 173
    Rob M.

    You absolutely do NOT need to rustproof your OB for life out here (man, that dealer of yours really needs an attitude adjustment!). Two reasons: 1) as already alluded to, the cars are basically well manufactured to be corrosion resistant, and 2) road salt is NOT used out here, at least not on the west side of the Cascades. As the weather rarely justifies it, and it's considered environmentally unfriendly (a major sin out here in la-la land), it's simply not used. Of course, they also don't have any snow removal equipment to speak of (all of metro Seattle has about 20 snowplows), so on the rare occasions when is DOES snow, you'll be glad you have an OB.

    Hey, everyone, y'all are invited out here to the PNW for the big party over on Whidbey Island for the returning crew from the EP-3 that was forced down in China. 4 PM Saturday - everyone is welcome. Meet the guy (Lt Shane Osborn) that man-handled his mangled aircraft to a safe landing - much to the relief of a very-alive 23-person crew. Well done, Shane! And there's still snow in the mountains if you want to take your OBs out for some fun afterwards.

    Cheers,

    Ken M.
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    fideliofidelio Member Posts: 2
    Hi Everyone.

    I own 2001 outback ltd and I notice little steering vibrations. It is like "massage". Tire pressure - o.k./wheel balance - o.k.
    Can anyone help me with this problem?
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    kadiekadie Member Posts: 2
    Hello,
    I have a 2000 Outback Limited Wagon that I bought new in Oct. 2000. I really really love this car! But I have a problem now that the weather is warmer. I wash and dry my car. Then when I go for a drive and roll the windows down when I put them up they are all wet. I don't like water spots on my windows, that why I dry my car. This can happen up to 3 days after I wash the car and can be any of the 4 windows. Is this a common problem or just something wrong with my particular car? Thank you for your help.
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    friendly_jacekfriendly_jacek Member Posts: 96
    A question on trailer towing.
    Occasionally, I tow a 1000-1400 trailer with my 2000 subaru legacy wagon (AT) for a short distance. I more or less comply with the owner's manual. However, since my previous car would overheat transmission easily even without towing, how many of you have any experience with towing and consider transmission cooler.
    Thanks,
    Jacek
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Fidelio: the next thing I'd check would be the alignment. Then maybe the shocks?

    kadie: I dunno, mine dries pretty quick. Is any of the weatherstripping loose? Do you have any water sloshing around in the doors?

    Jacek: I think the 1000 # limit has more to do with braking. You can tow 2000 lbs if you have trailer brakes, so I don't think the tranny is the problem. Just take it easy and allow extra room to stop.

    -juice
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    mochalabmochalab Member Posts: 5
    Hi all. I'm not sure if this is a problem or not.. but I'm a little concerned. I have been noticing that my new AL Bean seems to rev alot when I start it, more so in the morning. For instance, this morning, it seemed to rev at about 2,000 rams for a couple of minutes until I shift into drive, then it considerably quiets. I started my car after work today (9 hours later), it reed again at around 1,500 imps for a good couple of minutes. Is this normal behavior? I don't ever recall my previous car, Old Cutlass, doing this. Also, have noticed a "pullback" sensation when accelerating from 0 to ? and when I'm traveling at a constant speed of around 40 mph. Any thoughts? Thanks, Donna :)
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    Yep, it'll rev a bit high until it warms up.
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    hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    About the documentation fee, in my opinion this is just another creative way the dealer has found to screw the consumer, I personally find it insulting for a dealer to charge for the paperwork that allows him to make a fair profit on your purchase, I would, and have walked because of this fee, actually did me a favour since I subsquently got a better deal with no doc. fee.
    Cheers Pat.
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    mochalabmochalab Member Posts: 5
    Wow. Sorry for the typos in my e-mail above. So much for the use of spell check. I think I was better off not using it. I'm LOL as I read it.(rams and imps) :)
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    joeb24joeb24 Member Posts: 111
    To Kadie (#1056), My 2000 LL Bean also has the same problem with the window getting wet after going up and down into the window well after I go through car wash and car has been dried. Beats me?

    Doc fee: I believe most dealers in Northern Virginia suburbs of DC charge the Doc fee ($100-$200), while dealers in Maryland suburbs of DC charge much less($25.). Not sure of the reason.
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    rmanleyrmanley Member Posts: 8
    Interesting new format on this message posting system that the Edmunds folks are using: No subject line to quickly scan and move on if the subject material is not relevant.

    Anyway, I decided to not give any of the dealers the satisfaction of obtaining a "Doc Fee" from me and instead found a 1999 Subaru Outback Wagon from a private seller on AutoTrader.com.

    It is in great visual condition, loaded with almost all the options I was looking for (leather seats, seat warmers, dual sunroofs, 6 CD changer which was appropriately installed in a hidden location under the passenger seat, remote starter, and premium sound system), the guy kept a great maintenance/service record, and I had confidence that the odometer reading was accurate (hadn't been tainted by a dealer's paws).

    I'm purchasing it and picking it up tomorrow evening for $16,500. He's even throwing his doggy compartment separator to boot.

    The only additional options I'm going to throw on it are a rear differential protector, a trailer hitch, some rubber floor mats to kick off the snow, and a bike/ski rack.

    Thanks to everyone on this site for giving me an "edumucation" on these Outbacks so I could make an informed buyer's decision.

    Rob M.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Donna: sounds normal for a warm up. Give her a few seconds to build up oil pressure before you drive off.

    Rob: Holy Cow! That's a GREAT price!

    -juice
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Just received quote for 01 Outback. They're telling me the only added costs are tax and tags, however, $250 for tags seems a little high for me for which they are telling me is a Connecticut thing. Will check it out, but, probably won't change my decision.

    -Greg
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    Funny, when I sold Subaru's the doc fee we charged was $65. Doc fees are just another dealer markup to cover some of the prep and paperwork costs, but $250 goes into the profit column. Still, even with the doc fee it may well be the best deal, so don't sweat it too much.
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    hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    can't speak for CT, but prior to an initiative passed here a couple years ago, WA charged an excise tax equal to 2.2% of the value of the vehicle. Made licensing new cars expensive! I purposely delayed renewing the tags on my motorhome - good thing! Went from $1141 to $39. Trucks still pay tonnage, but most passenger cars are $30. $250 may or may not be out of line, depending on how the tax system works there.

    Cheers!
    Paul
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    doc fees are charged by dealers, not the State. Registrations in Connecticut run less than $150 from the State. The 'doc' fee described is not charged in Washington.
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I'm fairly sure there is some profit in there. The issue might be that I would buy in CT but register it in NY. It appears the dealer was up front with the added fees and his cost above invoice - he stated it before I asked. However, they do give loaner cars during maintenance and throw in first oil change (3500 miles) as standard. Also will give me cargo net and/or tail gate bar. Lets see about the trade in and what other goodies I can get. They need to make some profit to stay in business (just not too much).

    -Greg
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    r22549r22549 Member Posts: 42
    Was this for a VDC model...Could you post which dealer it is in CT..Thanx...Rod
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That may be what they charge to go to the DMV for you. It's probably worth $50 to save you the trouble, but not $200.

    -juice
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    wbb0441wbb0441 Member Posts: 4
    I have a 96 Subaru OB legacy. Bought it new. Has 77K miles and have always changed the oil every 3K and 30K and 60 K tuneups/check-ups and timing belt.

    Now the engine starting buring oil. 1.5 qts in 2k miles. took it to john elway in englewood co. said i need a new short block and have to rebuild engine. i call customer service to ask if problems with engine, and they said they cannot do anything as warranty expired at 60K.

    Can anyone tell me if they have had problems with the 2.5 L engine and how they were treated by subaru? my old 92 legacy went 230k miles without a problem. I can't believe they now produce an engine that will only last 77K.

    Thanks much, Bill in Denver
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    There were some oil filters that were bad a while back, I don't know if you can attach the problem to your car, but we did see some blown engines that had lost their oil.
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    ttamatrudattamatruda Member Posts: 10
    This is a continued posting on an old story.
    Reply to elliowb (977) and following
    The manual clutch seems to be a vulnerable point on the subaru outbacks. Several archived discussions note problems. Usually not the one you mentioned (spongy), but several reports of clutches burning, burning out, or smelling like various types of rotten vegetables after climbing in low gear. My clutch went kaput at 7500 miles. The dealer could find no cause, but the Subaru rep noted a vendor defect in the fingers holding the pressure plate to the clutch (they were concave instead of flat, so they did not effectively hold plate, clutch slipped, burnt, slipped, burnt, died. Now I have a replaced clutch. This is working fine, but the car smells like it is trying to burn up after I drive 30 miles at freeway speeds. I am talking about replacing the replacement clutch, or arranging a swap/buyback.
    Does anyone have an idea what the burning smell is now? If not clutch, could it be wax on the catalytic converter, or something?
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    The dealer was Colonial Subaru across from Stew Leonards in Danbury (by Brookfield). They claim to be the largest dealer in New England in terms of sales. My model was not a VDC, it's the basic Outback Wagon. After looking at the numbers again it looks like I'm getting it for $300 over invoice. When I sit down with them, I think I should be able to get them lower or more for my trade-in. They list their inventory on their website. Sorry, can't remember the address right now but you can get it through the Subaru site.

    -Greg
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    hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    Bill: My dealer's service advisors tell me (somebody else jump in here if I'm getting a load of smegma) that up to 1 qt. per 1000 miles is considered "normal" consumption. My 97 usually uses about half of that, at about 63k miles, and I have a tiny valve cover gasket leak that accounts for a very small part of that. If what I'm being told is accurate, your consumption may qualify as "normal" - any oil on the ground or blue smoke out the tailpipe? Good luck. There's a lot of good advice on this board, most of it much more experienced and technical than mine.

    Cheers!
    Paul
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    pocahontaspocahontas Member Posts: 802
    Here's a direct link to our new Subaru Community page! Please let us us know what you think. ;-)


    Please note: you'll also find a direct link to the Subaru Community in the Additional Resources on the left side of this page. Happy Motoring!


    Pocahontas
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    r22549r22549 Member Posts: 42
    Somebody will be getting my hard earned pennies... think the deals in general will be getting better for auto's...New model year getting closer, interest rates dropping, and the country is slowing...
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    ijcameronijcameron Member Posts: 1
    Hello,

    I am looking at purchasing a 2000/2001 5 spd wagon, either the Legacy L, or the base model Outback. Apart from cosmetics, can anyone tell me the difference between the two models?
    Thanks, Iain
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Mark-

    the OB will have a limited slip differential and 16" rims, plus the struts that make for the higher ride height. Other differences are cosmetic.
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    on the Outback also. I'm not sure if the limited slip is standard now, it wasn't when I was selling them.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bill: if it runs well, I say it's time to trade up and let the dealer, well, deal with it.

    Not sure what causes that, and it's not common as far as I know, but it's probably your best option at this point.

    Outbacks also have more options available, plus the Limited model. The tires and wheels are different. The final drive ratio also differs (the OB is geared shorter).

    The L is the value model, but still has ABS, AWD, and power stuff. The Outback is marketed towards active folks, and so is beefed up a little. The GT is the sporty one.

    I suggest you drive all three and pick your favorite.

    -juice
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    originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Lumbar support adjustment
    6 way power seat
    Leather option
    Moonroof
    In glass antenna
    16 inch wheels
    Limited slip rear end
    Body color door handles and side molding
    Variable intermittent wipers
    Remote keyless entry (option)
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Just came back from a dealer in NY who basically matched Colonial's offer. Interestingly, I met a guy at the dealer looking at the REX and he made a comment - "if you want to buy, you go to Colonial". Can't get that out of my head. Didn't get a chance to talk to him more about it. Also, Colonial gives loaner cars during maintenance and gives you the 3500 mile servicing gratis. I will probably buy there. You can also try Wilton Subaru at 888-838-9797 on Rt 7.

    -Greg
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    david_ctdavid_ct Member Posts: 4
    Greg,

    I picked up an Outback at Colonial in Danbury on President's day ($200 over invoice + 3.9% financing ). It was the first car I bought in CT. The salesperson said that the Doc Fees ($170-190) was a CT thing and that all dealerships have to charge it ( CT registration is about $80 dollars and inspection sticker $10 ). I just believed him and paid it. With only 1850 miles, I haven't used the service department at Colonial, yet.

    If you're willing, exit 17 on I-84 ( Waterbury ) is Chase Parkway Subaru/Volvo. I didn't work with a salesman and only looked around the lot for the car/color my wife wanted ( night and toddler was getting edgy ). Someone at the job recommended them highly and have bought many cars from them. It's about another 20 minutes east on I-84.

    David
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    Colonial's giving you a line of BS! They have higher doc fees than some of their competitors, the State has nothing to do with charging them, it's strictly a dealer add-on.
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I appreciate the feedback. Congrats on the OB. Sounds like we are getting the same story. I have to believe raybear that there is some hidden profit in there. I guess I can call their bluff and tell them I will register the car myself. Hmm??? Anyway, I might visit Smith Cairns in Brewster (near my home) tonight and make a final decision.

    -Greg
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    david_ctdavid_ct Member Posts: 4
    D'oh.

    My brother picked up his RS from a Boston, MA dealer. His total fees (doc/show) were $70-$90. Oh well, I'll just have to work a better deal next time, if I go back to Colonial.

    Anyways, I'm quite happy with the '01 Outback. I haven't had a chance to drive it through some pack snow this past winter, but I bet it's a lot better that the '91 Corolla in going up the snowy hill roads of CT.

    No problems other than the common annoyances like squeaky brakes when going in reverse in the morning ( or backing down a driveway after a 140mile trip ) and low gas mileage ( ~21mpg after 1850 miles ) which is slowly creeping up after the break-in period. I think we got 25mpg going to Boston (140 mile). Our daily commute is 12 miles through town, so 21mpg seems pretty good.
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    it's the bottom line that really counts.
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I think the dealers need to make some money. I just wish they are up front about it. But I think the deal you got is great and I don't expect to do much better. The gas mileage your getting appears to be pretty good for a new engine. Some people are averaging 18-19 mpg at the beginning.

    Good luck,
    Greg
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Base Outbacks don't have the moonroof either (or leather).

    Doc fees are a way that they can offer a $100 lower price, and then make that money back.

    I agree with those that recommend you compare the bottom line.

    -juice
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    kcearlskcearls Member Posts: 1
    My bride and I just purchased a 98 GT Wagon 5sp after looking for one for several months. It has 83,000 miles and looks perfectly clean cosmetically, but is going to need tires, clutch, brakes etc. All of which I expected. However, I purchased it through a dealer auction, and when I got it I found rust throughout the undercarriage.

    I live in the Norhtwest (Oregon) and am unaccustomed to dealing with rust like this. Should I be worried--perhaps resell the car and keep looking? My wife wants a wagon like this, and plans to keep it for 5 years or so-
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    originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    It is only a 1998 so I would imagine what you are seeing is surface rust on perhaps just the suspension members, rear dif etc? These pieces do not wear a heavy coat of paint and often get pitted from sand, salt etc. If this is the case I would not worry.

    bit
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    armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    not worry about rust? You're going to need an OCD refresher course!

    Ross
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    originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Well, since mine was new when I got it I waxed all the suspension pieces, wash the underside when I wash the painted surfaces, and apply a vinyl dressing to plastic parts underneath including the wheel well liners.

    bit
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    gam2gam2 Member Posts: 316
    Base Outbacks do not have variable intermittent wipers. It is a major gripe of mine. Outback Sports have them!
    GAM
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    romolaromola Member Posts: 4
    I just bought a 2001 Outback wagon. During a test drive I didn't notice the seat particularly. I like the lumbar support and a comfortable seat is important because I drive a lot. The seat, though is unbelievably hard and I am in pain. It's like sitting on wood. The car is 1 week old and I made an appointment with a service department. Should I expect Subaru to correct this? To me it is a defect in workmanship -- totally unusable to me. I am average size and shape. I fear that it just a poor design, but for over $22,000 I expect some comfort.
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    raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    I had a number of Outbacks over the 3 years I sold them and never noticed a hard seat. I found the Forester seat harder than the Outback. Maybe some extra padding can be installed, you can call an uphosterer in the yellow pages if your dealer can't help.
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    yellowbikedonyellowbikedon Member Posts: 228
    When you visit the dealership, ask to sit in other Outbacks on the lot. By doing this, you can compare the softness of your driver's seat to others.

    BTW, I have owned two Outbacks (the latest a 2001 LL Bean model) and have never had a problem with the comfort of the driver's seat.

    Good luck.

    Don
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    drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Just a reminder that the Subaru Thursdays chat is on at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
    http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html


    Drew
    Host
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