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Hi, there have been no responses in this thread from Volvomax in a long time. Does anyone have any info? I also haven't seen any of his posts in other threads also,atleast to my knowledge. Vmax used to provide so much useful info and he helped countless folks.Everyone appreciated his input and real world info. Any info?? :confuse:
Sounds as if you replaced the OEM head unit. What did you buy?
You caught me!!!
I installed Pioneer Avic 700BT, a Windows CE touchscreen based system that I added a Honda OEM front on. The menus, the logos... everything. I also added a PAX steering wheel control translator to convert Honda OEM steering wheel controls inputs into Pioneer signlas so that steering wheel controls function. The only thing that gives it away is a small Pioneer logo on the bezel.
Well, it's worth keeping, sounds like you must love it from your description, all the extra maintenence, etc. But I'll 2nd the advice to put it on ebay, or wherever, to sell privately, if you want to sell. Your description of all the extra goodies, the maintenence, the stick, the 30K miles (!) should get you more private party than trade-in. Dealers may not even consider all that; might even offer less with the stick, maybe.....
Well, the miles are low because I live 10 miles from work, and ride a motorcycle April/May through September/October, and I have a 1988 Honda Prelude Si 4WS...
Most of the miles, believe it or not, are highway, driving from Buffalo to NYC (6-8 a year), 2 trips to Myrtle beach, SC, 1 trip to Orlando, FL, few tirps to Toronto, ON... Otherwise, the car would only have 8,000-10,000 miles.
I've got an offer from a dealer for $17K OTD on a low-mileage 2005 Outback XT (not XT Limited). Seems a bit high to me. I think he should come down another $500 or so, but don't know if I'm being unrealistic. Would appreciate feedback. Thanks.
You can find lots of bmw 3 series 05 models with reasonable miles for that price. Saw an 05 325i rwd 26k miles for 16k. Lots of 330/325xi cars in that price range with 50k miles or less if you need awd. LOTS of fun!! Just a thought -- seems like the subaru is over priced when you look at the 05 sports market.
I am not an expert, just a Subaru owner, and I think this price is way too high. I looked at one of these back in the Fall of 2005. It was a leftover since the 2006 models were out. It was an red auto with no sunroof. The dealer was asking 23500 at the time which was a $1000 more than the GT Wagon that they also had in stock. That was without negotiation. In hindsight I should of bought that car instead of my 2005 Legacy GT sedan which has an awful resale value.
I would also add that if it is a sedan then it is worth considerably less than a wagon.
I am in snow country, otherwise wouldn't even consider one. Trouble is, I can't afford a new one right now. Trying to split the difference and get a good, low-mileage car for under 20K. But agreed it's too high.
My frustration is that every car I like known for reliability, that I can find for low mileage, seems similar to how you describe Subarus--overpriced. Over and over I see 3 year old Honda Accords quoted within $2K of a new Accord--and that's for the old design. My mechanic is checking this Outback right now. I'm going to push the guy on price. Aesthetically, the car appears to be very well kept--the previous owner only put 5K miles a year on the car. But the tires look like they're close to bald, and I want to know about the breaks and the battery. We'll see. Thanks for the feedback.
Used Subarus are overpriced - that's why we buy them new. But if this one checks out mechanically, there should be enough wiggle room for negotiation. Just don't expect a "quick" negotiation. The car should be worth 15K without certification - if it checks out. Offer 14 or 14.5 if you really want it and when they counter, come up a few hundred and then leave. If they want to sell the car, they'll call you back; if not, there are other fish in the sea. There are plenty of non-turbo subarus for less $$. If you've fallen for the car, don't show it. Nothing is more important in the negotiation than the willingness to walk out.
His original quote was 16K (not including TTL). I asked 14.5 and he countered with 15.5 (which makes it 17K after lousy NJ taxes and dealer fees). I'm going to come back with 15K and ask for some repairs (nothing major). We'll see. I don't think I'll do better than that--and in our area, I've searched all the dealers and there just aren't a ton of Outbacks available.
For 4k more you can have an 09 with 15k miles.Lots of them to choose. That's asking price. Go to cars.com and punch in outback 09 lowest price. Unless you are paying cash, the finance payments aren't that much more.
I'm with Jayrider above ... if there's anyway to squeeze another 5K in, I'd shoot for a 1 year old, or even low-end new model. They are great cars, but lousy used deals. I own a 10 year-old Forester with close to 150K, and it's a great car, and even this old car would fetch way more than I'd pay for a used 150K mile car. Go figure.
If you can't afford a new "base" car, or maybe a Forester X, then you certainly can't afford a 5-year-old car for $17 or $15k. Put another way, how long were you figuring to make payments? Until it's 10 years old? Without a warranty of any kind?
Mile for mile, or month for month, the '05 is going to be much more expensive than a new one. Buy it new, maintain it, stretch the payments as far as you have to, consider a manufacturer's extended warranty, financed in, to cover that time period.
Failing that, I'd suggest '07 Ford Taurus with snow tires. Not much fun, but a very safe choice and good for financial health as well.
A few things to explain my rationale, but I welcome feedback if you think I'm missing the big picture or underestimating how much better today's cars might be than the 2005: 1. The car has only 30K miles on it, and I just had it checked by my mechanic and he said he thinks it's in very good condition, so to me it's like getting a 2007 Outback XT for the price of a 2005. They were virtually identical cars. 2. I'm sure this says something really bad/superficial about me, but I hate "base" vehicles because I can't stand wheel covers. It's a personal thing. I used to have an old Mazda with wheel covers, and the fact that the wheel covers flew off everytime I hit pothole became a running family joke. I lost so many that I actually bought a large bulk box of them and had to keep it in my trunk. Finally, after three years of that, I just quit replacing them and drove it looking like a piece of crap with no wheel covers, just showing the steel. I swore that I would never buy another car with wheel covers, ever ever ever ever. Stupid, I know, but it is what it is. I'm sure I need to get over it, but I had such a bad experience with them, that it doesn't matter what car I see, if it has wheel covers, I automatically never even consider it and think it looks like junk. I hope to own this thing for 10 years--I can't think my car is junk every day for 10 years. 3. I'm trying to draw the line somewhere in my budget. When I started this process, I was looking for older cars, with 50-60K miles, for $14K. Then I got worried that that was too old and I would inherit too many problems and they wouldn't end up being a deal at all by the time I was done with repairs. So I changed my focus to much more recent cars with only 20-30K miles for $18K-$20K, but then you hit the issue of whether those cars are really worth it, or if you couldn't just do better buying new. But the new models of the cars I like will run me $21-$23K. So, what started as a search for a car for a used car for $14K is now potentially a new car search for $23K. I have too many expenses to afford that right now. I'm trying t balance getting a car that I like (I like Honda and Subaru, I don't like Toyota or Nissan), that will be modestly fun to drive, that is at least somewhat "cool", that has a strong safety record and strong reliability ratings, that will be big enough for my 4-month old daughter to grow in as well as her next sibling who we hope to add within 3-4 years, and that will come in for no more than $20K. 4. I had set a goal that this would be done no later than today, the final day of the year, and it's now 5PM and I failed to achieve that goal, and my wife is beside herself that I didn't get this done. And now it will be the first day of the year and nobody is going to deal on anything and I'm back to square one.
My general budget has been a $300 per month car payment. That's what gets me that. Can I technically spend more? Yes. But I have to cut this off somewhere. Maybe I've cut it off at the wrong number. Maybe my number needs to be $330 per month. But I have limited resources right now, and I'm just trying to stretch them and get the most I can. I thought $17K for a "cool", reliable, safe, low-mileage, very good condition, no-wheel-covers Outback might be the car that met all of those criteria, but I acknowledge I'm probably missing the forest for the trees. Make no mistake, I've spent a lot of time in Subaru dealerships this week, and I would love a new one. Just feels like if I buy one I've failed in what I set out to do, and the 5,000 hours I've spent looking into this since October were wasted.
Keep in mind that this is the XT and there's about a $2000 difference in the TMV between the base 05 Outback and the Turbo XT. If all you want is AWD, and IF the turbo is not important to you, then there may be better options for you. But if the turbo is what you need/want, then play more hardball. It looks like you've made one offer and the dealer has made one counter. If the vehicle is perfect, never hit, no dings, and has its maintenance records, repeat or even lower your 14.5 offer - as I think that offer is close to where your final price should be anyway. I have, on occasion, been so bold as to back my offer with a big pile of cash on the salesman's desk. A pile of 50's & 20's looks very impressive - and I assure you that the sales manager will be aware of it very shortly.
For purpose of comparison, I have my sales order in front of me - in March 09, I paid 20,999 for a new 09 Outback SE (fitzmall). I could have bought a base model for less but I wanted all the SE goodies.
Congrats on getting the car checked out by your mechanic. That was a wise move. I don't think the dealer will be less willing to deal tomorrow than today. I think you have to go into the negotiation in a positive way and not thinking negative, or making assumptions, from the get-go. YOU are in the driver's seat. There is only one of you with cash in hand. There are plenty of dealers and other used cars. They need to deal with you and your freedom to walk away.
I didn't realize this was to be financed. That adds another complication to your strategy. You need to compare a used car rate to a new car rate - and do the math to see the difference in total payments. Its possible that you could pay the same in total for a new car at 1.9% (the rate I got on my subaru in March) vs 12% on a used car. Its like anything else - you've just got to do the math.
You may very well need this car - but I cannot emphasize enough that you should not indicate this need or desire at the dealer. You must remove all emotion from the car buying process. By the time I have finished with them, they believe that I have done them a favor by taking the car off their hands at my price. Be confident, act surprised that they are not willing to deal more, and be willing to walk.
The Turbo is cool but I don't care about it that much. It's just the best one I've found within my immediate area and in my price range.
Was your $20,999 for the SE OTD?
I got used car financing for 5%, so even a good new deal wouldn't improve on that enormously.
He didn't budge one penny on his offer, so I walked. The challenge was that this was not a Subaru dealership, but rather a dealer selling higher end cars, they were packed today (apparently nobody told them about the recession), he was in the process of closing two new-car deals with customers when I brought the Outback back from my mechanic, and while he was polite, I was nowhere near a priority for him. Nice guy, and I appreciated the lack of pressure, but he had the bearing of someone feeling no pressure whatsoever to close my deal or to waste another minute quibbling over a few hundred dollars on a 5-year old station wagon.
Sounds like you're a better negotiator than me. I think he knows I like the car--I was there twice in two days. But I did walk. If it's still there next week, I'll try him again and push harder. Or, I may just find something different. You never know. I'm very deflated tonight, and need a stiff drink to try to wash this away, but there's always tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.
I actually think you'll do better tomorrow or next week and here's why: That dealer was packed with last minute shoppers who want to buy on the last day for the 2009-only federal income tax deduction on the sales tax paid on a new car. So I bet every salesman was busy today with new car sales. It makes perfect sense that they would not get involved with a potentially long negotiation process with you. Since the income tax deduction applies only to new cars, this was not a good day for you to be in there. Next week, there should be few new car buyers - at least by comparison to today.
The price I paid was before sales tax. Since every state has different taxes and fees, it would be more confusing to state the OTD price. I actually went in there not expecting to buy because I wasn't expecting such a great offer on my trade-in, a 2001 Chevy Silverado. Fitzmall is a no-haggle internet pricing place, so their offer for your trade is not an over-allowance. You don't negotiate your new car sales price at these places - but you can negotiate your trade-in. When their offer reached $9K (started at 8K), I figured that was close enough. The sales tax is paid only on the difference after the trade is subtracted, so that saved another $540. A regular Toyota dealer offered only 6K for my truck in trade against MSRP on a RAV4, so I walked on that bad deal - it was far too lousy to even begin a negotiation.
A 5% rate for a used car is excellent. I still think you are in the driver's seat - all you need is to walk in with all your confidence.
I wish I lived closer to Fitzmall. A bit of a long drive to buy a car--but their pricing at least gives me a ballpark idea. Interestingly, based on their pricing of two other 2005 Outbacks (neither of them XTs), the Outback I've been looking at is actually probably priced pretty close to the mark--still a bit high, but not far off.
Though it begs the question, if that price is still not a good used car bargain just generally, what cars are good used car deals. The cars that are known for their reliability and safety records all seem to be priced similarly to Subarus--i.e., they did NOT see their value fall 20-30% the minute they were driven off the dealer lot, as the old maxim goes. They are still priced close to new. So, if I want a car that I will be able to be confident I can run for 10 more years, how do I get a bargain, when those cars aren't bargains?
Anyway, I'm venting. Maybe the answer is that used cars aren't ultimately bargains. Maybe I should have gone after that new card tax deduction as well and picked myself up a nice 2010 Legacy.
The best bargains, IMO, are the cars that depreciate steeply for reasons other than their reliability or repair risk. My son is driving a 94 subaru legacy all over the US East Coast and will probably drive home from a 600+ mile trip tomorrow. With its age and 166K miles, he's also asked me about what would be a most cost effective replacement if it develops a fatal problem. My answer was a new or used Pontiac Vibe or Saturn Astra, both orphans, but basically the same cars as the Matrix and Opel. I wouldn't worry about service for either one. People are panicking because they are becoming orphans - without really thinking it through. There's a remote possibility of finding one of these new (if willing to travel several hundred miles) & GM announced a few days ago that they were paying dealers $7K to move them - so they should be dealing.
I wouldn't really consider the Vibe an orphan, with a shared Toyota platform that has been popular. The Astra, OTOH, sold poorly, shares nothing with anything else in the US and belongs to a brand that is now kaput. I'm not saying its a bad car; I've driven them numerous times in Europe and it found it to be okay. But someone should know what they are getting into when they pull the trigger.
If your looking at wagons, I'd also keep an eye out for the Hyundai Elantra Touring. Hyundai makes high quality product now, but public perception is still lagging, which will help drive depreciation. People don't know about this model. And it could make a great used buy in a year or two...
The Vibe is a brand orphan when Pontiac ceases to exist. And it will be a bargain because used examples will sell for less than the Matrix. I know people who are dumping their Vibes because of this and its a very foolish move. The Prizm was always a used car bargain relative to its identical Corolla, without Chevy disappearing - and the Vibe situation should produce similar discounts.
The biggest problem with the Astra would be repairs after collisions, as body panels and trim could be hard to get.
The Elantra quality, when new, would suggest that it might be a bargain used - especially since it has steep depreciation. But, IMO, its less desirable than a Vibe because the auto insurance can be very high in some areas. The OP is in NJ, an area known for high auto insurance. An Elantra in PG Co. MD costs more to insure than a Mercedes. A co-worker bought one and was shocked when his insurance was triple that of my new pickup of the same year - and I had better coverage. Shoppers should always check with their insurance agents when considering specific models. The OP was interested in subarus - which are among the least expensive cars to insure.
There's nothing here that shares many parts with the Astra, and it has some weird maintenance requirements (I think the spark plugs are only good for 35-40k).
As far as something having steep depreciation while still being decently reliable, the Taurus that steine13 always recommends is an option, as is the Crown Vic and pretty much any GM car with the 3800 V6. Notice I said "decently reliable" and not "as reliable as an Accord." And a lot of the reason those cars have steep depreciation isn't that they're awful, it's just that they're not as good overall as the competition.
Yes, I agree with you and Steine13 about the Taurus, Crown Vic and the GM 3.8/3800 - although some of the latter have intake gasket problems when GM cut some corners to go with plastic manifolds. These are also all cheap to insure.
Did you know that Subaru also recommends spark plug replacements every 30K? I had the dealer change my wife's Forester plugs at 35K and asked for the old plugs. They certainly didn't need changing & could have easily gone 2 to 3 times as long. When the service manager handed them to me, he said as much. But having seen them, I know that for the type of driving that she does, I'll change those plugs next after they've been in for at least 70K miles. I don't know who would need plugs after 30k miles on a new car - maybe someone who idles a lot & does a lot of short trips with lots of cold starts.
Not sure why I hadn't checked Craigslist, but the dealer posted the XT there two weeks ago at an ask of $15.3K, that's 200 below the "rock-bottom" he'd quoted me. Listed by a different salesperson. I feel obligated to work through the salesman I've already been working with, but should I? Is there an unwritten rule that you don't go behind your guy's back, because right now I'm a little bugged and I want to? But it still seems only right to talk with him again, but quote this ad, and then repeat my best offer.
He talked repeatedly about this "other customer" coming from a long distance today, and sure to make the sale if I don't snap it up, but that increasingly feels like smoke.
Many years ago was in the market for a cargo van to buy and have outfitted with windows - seats etc. It was the thing back then. Drove a dodge van that I kind of liked and offered the guy 4200 which was 300 under asking price. Had the check book out and he said he had another buyer due in a few hours that was going to pay more. Tried to buy that van for another 15 minutes but he wouldn't budge. I left and when he called 3 hours later and said the van was mine for the 4200 I asked what happened to the other buyer.He said it didn't work out. Actually, I had cooled off on the van by then and declined it at any price. He was very surprised as I hung up. I still think you can do better on an 08/09 low mileage outback but you really seem sold on the 05. My advice is to just buy it --- it's what you want --- the comments on this post don't seem to be moving you off that ride so why not get what YOU think is the best deal -- not what others feel makes sense. And I wouldn't worry about a few hundred bucks either -- that's not much to overpay on a car you really want. I've done much worse -- believe me.
Jayrider, I really like the XT, but the only reason I seem sold is that I'm not seeing better deals on 08/09 Outbacks. I would love an 08/09 and would actually prefer one, but they're almost all quoted at $19,999. The lowest quote I've seen is $18,886, no-haggle, for a base 09. I know I could probably negotiate down one of the $19,999 cars $1000, but that's still $3,500 more than the XT. Maybe the low mileage of the XT isn't worth what I think it's worth, and the warranty on the others would be worth more than I'm giving them credit for. I don't know. I never buy cars, and really don't know what the best deals are.
Ateixeira, that's an interesting option. I'm leery of Saturn for the other reasons others have cited--I'm worried about it being orphaned for parts. But I'm going to check to see what's available, and then see if my wife will even consider one.
bruuklin, I think you're too focused on the asking prices. On used cars, its often fantasy pricing and bears no relation to your final negotiated price. You've done the right thing by getting the car inspected by a mechanic and you know already that they have advertised it for less than their first counter-offer - but that's just the beginning of the negotiation. I have no doubt in the world that with a craigslist price of 15.3K that I could get that car for 14.5K very easily. And the dealer will make a profit on that.
Its much easier buying a new car because its so easy to know approximately what the dealer has paid for the car and what others are paying for the same thing - as opposed to used cars, where every one is a different story.
Fair. I have a message back to him and will call him at noon to try to finish this. I'm not coming up from the $16K OTD offer, not with this lower asking price.
But I am looking at a few other cars today, including the $18,886 base 09 I mentioned before.
I'll stop posting now. Thanks for the feedback everyone. It's been very helpful.
should i be right to assume that i can potentially get more for my trade in on a used vehicle vs. a new one? my thinking is that the used has more room to play with in the pricing, or am i wrong to assume this?
Just know what your trade-in is worth. You're really selling the car wholesale to a dealer. The value of your trade can also be negotiated - depending on how desirable it is and if the dealer has ready prospects for it.
I don't want to complicate things for you, but I wonder whether the '05 XT is the right choice. You appear to be on a budget and there's nothing wrong with that. Here's why I would think twice about the Subaru: --You're buying a used car with 30K miles and no warranty. You could be looking at some repair bills sooner than you'd like. --It has a turbo, which could break. Plus, gas mileage is worse with the turbo than with the normally-aspirated four cylinder. --Someone can correct me on here if I'm wrong, but I believe the turbo -- even back in '05 -- required premium gas and 3,750-mile oil change intervals.
I'm a Subaru loyalist -- I own two -- but, frankly, you might be better off with a lightly used Nissan Rogue, RAV4 or Honda CR-V as a more economical choice in the long run.
Yes, the XT requires premium fuel and the fuel economy is lower. I believe the oil change interval is 3750 for severe service only, otherwise 7500. The XT has some maintenance differences - one being more miles between spark plug changes - which would help to partially offset the added expense of the fuel for the XT - if one chooses to follow the maintenance intervals. I had the plugs replaced on my wife's non-turbo Forester at 35K when the maintenance schedule indicated 30K intervals - and from the appearance of the replaced plugs, they would have been fine for at least twice as long. We have 3 subarus and we will never again replace plugs after only 35K miles.
Now THAT would have been worth knowing...before 5PM yesterday when I signed the papers and drove it off the lot. Oh my.
I bought the XT because it was a safe car to replace one that was increasingly not safe. The PARAMOUNT concern in all of this had been the adorable 4 month old that I was putting at risk in the Sentra every day, and that I literally froze each morning because the Sentra's heat barely worked anymore. The XT was a car that I liked (right color, nice features) that seemed to fit my price range better than any of the other cars I was seeing. I got it because (and this was very important, actually) it was a car that fit those first two criteria that was at a dealer very close by, which was hugely helpful given that we have an infant at home, which was making car shopping exceedingly difficult--it's really hard shopping for cars in freezing winter weather when you're having to lug around an infant in a car seat and have two parents with really busy work schedules. I got it because we had set an unofficial deadline for the end of this whole car search (which had become a saga) of yesterday and it was a low mileage, safe car that we liked that we had been able to find the time to get checked by a mechanic and we weren't sure when we were going to be able to do that again--shopping for a used car proved to take so much more time than I bargained for. We got it because regardless of the state of the negotiation yesterday, my wife pulled the plug. She liked the car and was tired of the negotiating and tired of the search. We got it because of the cars we were looking at at this stage--a low mileage but recent design Outback, a 2007 CR-V (my wife didn't like the old design CR-V) or the 2007 Rav 4 (even though I don't like Toyotas very much) it has a price that was thousands lower ($15.5 vs. $19K), and was many thousands lower than buyng a brand new Outback or similarly appointed CR-V or Rav 4--the only thing that might have given it a run was the Saturn Vue, but my wife would hear NONE of me introducing a new car into the mix on Friday, no matter how interesting an idea it was, especially from a brand that was vanishing (I tried to sell her on GM covering the vehicles, that it would still share parts with a Chevy, etc., but she just wasn't listening anymore). We got it because I took all of this into account and continued to see this as a car that almost was slipping through the cracks--it was a 2005 car priced like a 2005 car, but with the wear and tear of only a 2007--only 30K miles, and my mechanic said it really was in excellent shape (he was surprised how solid everything was). And finally, I got it because while I knew it wouldn't quite have the fuel economy of a CR-V (government stats showed the Outback coming in at 20 combined MPGs vs. 23 for the CR-V), I thought the price offset that, and I live very close to work and I put only about 6K miles per year on the Nissan, so I figured those 3 MPGs would be minimal.
But with all that said, I'm pretty dumbstruck by the premium fuel revelation. Never even considered it. i read volumes on the car and never noticed that or saw that in any of what I read (obviously I read the wrong things). It never occurred to me that a car that wasn't a luxury brand would need premium fuel. I just don't think about cars enough or read about them enough or know enough about them or how they work. The turbo just seemed like a nice to have, a revelation actually after years of driving a Nissan Sentra that literally had so little acceleration that I had to shut off the air conditioning to get up the hill down the street from my house.
Wow, I feel like a moron, but now so much of what so many of you said makes sense in a way it didn't before. When you woud say that an 08 or 09 Outback was a better deal at $19-$20K vs. the XT at $15K, even though they often had similar mileage because the XT had been so sparsely driven, well, of course it was, BECAUSE THE XT WILL COST ME A FORTUNE IN GAS.
Well, if anyone has any words of perspective to try to help me cast this in a tollerable light, nobody on this board would appreciate them more than me right now. Right now I literally can't look outside at the new car--never ever thought that is how this whole thing would end. The trouble with this is that it's the gift that will keep on giving every minute we own the car. I will be reminded of my mistake every time I start the car and hear the engine rev, every time I accelerate and pass someone, and particularly every time I roll the window down at the service station (remember, in NJ, you don't pump your own gas) and say "fill it up, PREMIUM". Unreal. I'm actually almost embarrassed that I'll have to 'say that at the station--who am I to be driving something that needs "premium" gas?
I really am on a budget--we have an amount we can spend and an amount we couldn't--and I was trying to make a choice that fit all that, while also giving us something we might actually like. Despite the final outcome of all of this, I really have appreciate your input. Thanks again for all of the input. Carspace is a good resource. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to cancel the gym membership to pay for the gas for my fancy "new" car.
Happy new year everyone. It's going to be a GREAT year.
Congrats & sorry we didn't mention the premium requirement earlier. When everyone reminded you that you were paying more because it was a turbo, the premium requirement for turbos was assumed. Live and learn - both for you and for us posters. But the bright side is that you don't drive many miles. If you calculate how much more it will cost you for the miles you drive, I bet it will be less than $150-$200 per year. Your insurance savings might make up for that. I've found that subarus have among the lowest insurance costs - something of major importance in NJ, where they don't even trust you to pump your own gas...Enjoy the performance of the turbo - and the utility of the "new" subaru.
Sounds like you have some regrets the next morning... Premium fuel shouldn't cost all that much more, and nearly every turbo car (with the notable exception of Ford's new Ecoboost) requires it, whether it's a Chevrolet or an Audi.
Stop worrying so much and enjoy your new car. The turbo Subarus are really a hoot to drive!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to cancel the gym membership to pay for the gas for my fancy "new" car.
Jeez... Just relax and do the math. If you drive 15,000 miles per year and average 25 mpg using premium instead of regular will cost an additional $10 per month(assuming premium costs 20 cents per gallon more than regular). That amounts to the princely sum of 33 cents per day.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I did the math. I'm just frustrated by the principle of it. First principles of my car search in the beginning (many weeks ago) were: safe and reliable on NJ roads, good long-term reliability, low mileage, no more than $16K for the car, and cost effective long-term. I got the first few, I missed the $16K when tax was added, but I may have been a bit unrealistic about car prices when I started--its not 2006 anymore (the last time I bought a car), so I can deal with that. But there was no need for a car with premium fuel, and that will stick in my craw.
Life goes on, and when I'm driving it, I'll be glad I'm not in the old tin can. Plus, I learned a lot through this process that I hope I still remember in a few years, next time I do a car search. Definitely a learning experience.
Comments
Vmax used to provide so much useful info and he helped countless folks.Everyone appreciated his input and real world info.
Any info?? :confuse:
I just shot him an email. Hope all is OK.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Sounds as if you replaced the OEM head unit. What did you buy?
You caught me!!!
I installed Pioneer Avic 700BT, a Windows CE touchscreen based system that I added a Honda OEM front on. The menus, the logos... everything. I also added a PAX steering wheel control translator to convert Honda OEM steering wheel controls inputs into Pioneer signlas so that steering wheel controls function. The only thing that gives it away is a small Pioneer logo on the bezel.
Well, the miles are low because I live 10 miles from work, and ride a motorcycle April/May through September/October, and I have a 1988 Honda Prelude Si 4WS...
Most of the miles, believe it or not, are highway, driving from Buffalo to NYC (6-8 a year), 2 trips to Myrtle beach, SC, 1 trip to Orlando, FL, few tirps to Toronto, ON... Otherwise, the car would only have 8,000-10,000 miles.
This one does not appear to be an exception.
Buy a new one, or buy something else.
If you live in snow country, you'll likely have to deal with rust on this 5-year-old car. If you don't, why a Subaru? ;->
Cheers -Mathias
I would also add that if it is a sedan then it is worth considerably less than a wagon.
My frustration is that every car I like known for reliability, that I can find for low mileage, seems similar to how you describe Subarus--overpriced. Over and over I see 3 year old Honda Accords quoted within $2K of a new Accord--and that's for the old design. My mechanic is checking this Outback right now. I'm going to push the guy on price. Aesthetically, the car appears to be very well kept--the previous owner only put 5K miles a year on the car. But the tires look like they're close to bald, and I want to know about the breaks and the battery. We'll see. Thanks for the feedback.
I wish I could afford a new one.
If you can't afford a new "base" car, or maybe a Forester X, then you certainly can't afford a 5-year-old car for $17 or $15k. Put another way, how long were you figuring to make payments? Until it's 10 years old? Without a warranty of any kind?
Mile for mile, or month for month, the '05 is going to be much more expensive than a new one. Buy it new, maintain it, stretch the payments as far as you have to, consider a manufacturer's extended warranty, financed in, to cover that time period.
Failing that, I'd suggest '07 Ford Taurus with snow tires. Not much fun, but a very safe choice and good for financial health as well.
-Mathias
A few things to explain my rationale, but I welcome feedback if you think I'm missing the big picture or underestimating how much better today's cars might be than the 2005:
1. The car has only 30K miles on it, and I just had it checked by my mechanic and he said he thinks it's in very good condition, so to me it's like getting a 2007 Outback XT for the price of a 2005. They were virtually identical cars.
2. I'm sure this says something really bad/superficial about me, but I hate "base" vehicles because I can't stand wheel covers. It's a personal thing. I used to have an old Mazda with wheel covers, and the fact that the wheel covers flew off everytime I hit pothole became a running family joke. I lost so many that I actually bought a large bulk box of them and had to keep it in my trunk. Finally, after three years of that, I just quit replacing them and drove it looking like a piece of crap with no wheel covers, just showing the steel. I swore that I would never buy another car with wheel covers, ever ever ever ever. Stupid, I know, but it is what it is. I'm sure I need to get over it, but I had such a bad experience with them, that it doesn't matter what car I see, if it has wheel covers, I automatically never even consider it and think it looks like junk. I hope to own this thing for 10 years--I can't think my car is junk every day for 10 years.
3. I'm trying to draw the line somewhere in my budget. When I started this process, I was looking for older cars, with 50-60K miles, for $14K. Then I got worried that that was too old and I would inherit too many problems and they wouldn't end up being a deal at all by the time I was done with repairs. So I changed my focus to much more recent cars with only 20-30K miles for $18K-$20K, but then you hit the issue of whether those cars are really worth it, or if you couldn't just do better buying new. But the new models of the cars I like will run me $21-$23K. So, what started as a search for a car for a used car for $14K is now potentially a new car search for $23K. I have too many expenses to afford that right now. I'm trying t balance getting a car that I like (I like Honda and Subaru, I don't like Toyota or Nissan), that will be modestly fun to drive, that is at least somewhat "cool", that has a strong safety record and strong reliability ratings, that will be big enough for my 4-month old daughter to grow in as well as her next sibling who we hope to add within 3-4 years, and that will come in for no more than $20K.
4. I had set a goal that this would be done no later than today, the final day of the year, and it's now 5PM and I failed to achieve that goal, and my wife is beside herself that I didn't get this done. And now it will be the first day of the year and nobody is going to deal on anything and I'm back to square one.
My general budget has been a $300 per month car payment. That's what gets me that. Can I technically spend more? Yes. But I have to cut this off somewhere. Maybe I've cut it off at the wrong number. Maybe my number needs to be $330 per month. But I have limited resources right now, and I'm just trying to stretch them and get the most I can. I thought $17K for a "cool", reliable, safe, low-mileage, very good condition, no-wheel-covers Outback might be the car that met all of those criteria, but I acknowledge I'm probably missing the forest for the trees. Make no mistake, I've spent a lot of time in Subaru dealerships this week, and I would love a new one. Just feels like if I buy one I've failed in what I set out to do, and the 5,000 hours I've spent looking into this since October were wasted.
For purpose of comparison, I have my sales order in front of me - in March 09, I paid 20,999 for a new 09 Outback SE (fitzmall). I could have bought a base model for less but I wanted all the SE goodies.
I didn't realize this was to be financed. That adds another complication to your strategy. You need to compare a used car rate to a new car rate - and do the math to see the difference in total payments. Its possible that you could pay the same in total for a new car at 1.9% (the rate I got on my subaru in March) vs 12% on a used car. Its like anything else - you've just got to do the math.
You may very well need this car - but I cannot emphasize enough that you should not indicate this need or desire at the dealer. You must remove all emotion from the car buying process. By the time I have finished with them, they believe that I have done them a favor by taking the car off their hands at my price. Be confident, act surprised that they are not willing to deal more, and be willing to walk.
Was your $20,999 for the SE OTD?
I got used car financing for 5%, so even a good new deal wouldn't improve on that enormously.
He didn't budge one penny on his offer, so I walked. The challenge was that this was not a Subaru dealership, but rather a dealer selling higher end cars, they were packed today (apparently nobody told them about the recession), he was in the process of closing two new-car deals with customers when I brought the Outback back from my mechanic, and while he was polite, I was nowhere near a priority for him. Nice guy, and I appreciated the lack of pressure, but he had the bearing of someone feeling no pressure whatsoever to close my deal or to waste another minute quibbling over a few hundred dollars on a 5-year old station wagon.
Sounds like you're a better negotiator than me. I think he knows I like the car--I was there twice in two days. But I did walk. If it's still there next week, I'll try him again and push harder. Or, I may just find something different. You never know. I'm very deflated tonight, and need a stiff drink to try to wash this away, but there's always tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.
I actually think you'll do better tomorrow or next week and here's why: That dealer was packed with last minute shoppers who want to buy on the last day for the 2009-only federal income tax deduction on the sales tax paid on a new car. So I bet every salesman was busy today with new car sales. It makes perfect sense that they would not get involved with a potentially long negotiation process with you. Since the income tax deduction applies only to new cars, this was not a good day for you to be in there. Next week, there should be few new car buyers - at least by comparison to today.
The price I paid was before sales tax. Since every state has different taxes and fees, it would be more confusing to state the OTD price. I actually went in there not expecting to buy because I wasn't expecting such a great offer on my trade-in, a 2001 Chevy Silverado. Fitzmall is a no-haggle internet pricing place, so their offer for your trade is not an over-allowance. You don't negotiate your new car sales price at these places - but you can negotiate your trade-in. When their offer reached $9K (started at 8K), I figured that was close enough. The sales tax is paid only on the difference after the trade is subtracted, so that saved another $540. A regular Toyota dealer offered only 6K for my truck in trade against MSRP on a RAV4, so I walked on that bad deal - it was far too lousy to even begin a negotiation.
A 5% rate for a used car is excellent. I still think you are in the driver's seat - all you need is to walk in with all your confidence.
Good luck and best wishes for the New Year.
my reference only prices auto models.
personally, i would trade it for an escape. :P
Happy New Year
Though it begs the question, if that price is still not a good used car bargain just generally, what cars are good used car deals. The cars that are known for their reliability and safety records all seem to be priced similarly to Subarus--i.e., they did NOT see their value fall 20-30% the minute they were driven off the dealer lot, as the old maxim goes. They are still priced close to new. So, if I want a car that I will be able to be confident I can run for 10 more years, how do I get a bargain, when those cars aren't bargains?
Anyway, I'm venting. Maybe the answer is that used cars aren't ultimately bargains. Maybe I should have gone after that new card tax deduction as well and picked myself up a nice 2010 Legacy.
Thanks. Happy new year to you as well.
If your looking at wagons, I'd also keep an eye out for the Hyundai Elantra Touring. Hyundai makes high quality product now, but public perception is still lagging, which will help drive depreciation. People don't know about this model. And it could make a great used buy in a year or two...
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
The biggest problem with the Astra would be repairs after collisions, as body panels and trim could be hard to get.
The Elantra quality, when new, would suggest that it might be a bargain used - especially since it has steep depreciation. But, IMO, its less desirable than a Vibe because the auto insurance can be very high in some areas. The OP is in NJ, an area known for high auto insurance. An Elantra in PG Co. MD costs more to insure than a Mercedes. A co-worker bought one and was shocked when his insurance was triple that of my new pickup of the same year - and I had better coverage. Shoppers should always check with their insurance agents when considering specific models. The OP was interested in subarus - which are among the least expensive cars to insure.
As far as something having steep depreciation while still being decently reliable, the Taurus that steine13 always recommends is an option, as is the Crown Vic and pretty much any GM car with the 3800 V6. Notice I said "decently reliable" and not "as reliable as an Accord." And a lot of the reason those cars have steep depreciation isn't that they're awful, it's just that they're not as good overall as the competition.
Did you know that Subaru also recommends spark plug replacements every 30K? I had the dealer change my wife's Forester plugs at 35K and asked for the old plugs. They certainly didn't need changing & could have easily gone 2 to 3 times as long. When the service manager handed them to me, he said as much. But having seen them, I know that for the type of driving that she does, I'll change those plugs next after they've been in for at least 70K miles. I don't know who would need plugs after 30k miles on a new car - maybe someone who idles a lot & does a lot of short trips with lots of cold starts.
He talked repeatedly about this "other customer" coming from a long distance today, and sure to make the sale if I don't snap it up, but that increasingly feels like smoke.
I still think you can do better on an 08/09 low mileage outback but you really seem sold on the 05. My advice is to just buy it --- it's what you want --- the comments on this post don't seem to be moving you off that ride so why not get what YOU think is the best deal -- not what others feel makes sense. And I wouldn't worry about a few hundred bucks either -- that's not much to overpay on a car you really want. I've done much worse -- believe me.
We're on our 3rd Subaru and love them, but don't overlook this potential deal.
You can get $7 grand off a Saturn Vue. Resale will be awful but at that price it simply won't matter.
There's also the Outlook, if you want something big and roomy.
Ateixeira, that's an interesting option. I'm leery of Saturn for the other reasons others have cited--I'm worried about it being orphaned for parts. But I'm going to check to see what's available, and then see if my wife will even consider one.
I think you're too focused on the asking prices. On used cars, its often fantasy pricing and bears no relation to your final negotiated price. You've done the right thing by getting the car inspected by a mechanic and you know already that they have advertised it for less than their first counter-offer - but that's just the beginning of the negotiation. I have no doubt in the world that with a craigslist price of 15.3K that I could get that car for 14.5K very easily. And the dealer will make a profit on that.
Its much easier buying a new car because its so easy to know approximately what the dealer has paid for the car and what others are paying for the same thing - as opposed to used cars, where every one is a different story.
But I am looking at a few other cars today, including the $18,886 base 09 I mentioned before.
I'll stop posting now. Thanks for the feedback everyone. It's been very helpful.
Because there is more "wiggle room," the dealer can show you whatever number he wants on the paperwork, but what difference does it make?
A car is worth what it's worth, and unless the dealer knows he has a retail customer lined up for your car, wholesale money is what you'll get for it.
Less if you don't know what you're doing.
You're in danger of m aking it more complicated than it already is.
Cheers -Mathias
--You're buying a used car with 30K miles and no warranty. You could be looking at some repair bills sooner than you'd like.
--It has a turbo, which could break. Plus, gas mileage is worse with the turbo than with the normally-aspirated four cylinder.
--Someone can correct me on here if I'm wrong, but I believe the turbo -- even back in '05 -- required premium gas and 3,750-mile oil change intervals.
I'm a Subaru loyalist -- I own two -- but, frankly, you might be better off with a lightly used Nissan Rogue, RAV4 or Honda CR-V as a more economical choice in the long run.
I'm sure you all join me in wishing him luck in his new endeavor. He'll be missed around here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Glad to hear he's okay. Give him my best.
I bought the XT because it was a safe car to replace one that was increasingly not safe. The PARAMOUNT concern in all of this had been the adorable 4 month old that I was putting at risk in the Sentra every day, and that I literally froze each morning because the Sentra's heat barely worked anymore. The XT was a car that I liked (right color, nice features) that seemed to fit my price range better than any of the other cars I was seeing. I got it because (and this was very important, actually) it was a car that fit those first two criteria that was at a dealer very close by, which was hugely helpful given that we have an infant at home, which was making car shopping exceedingly difficult--it's really hard shopping for cars in freezing winter weather when you're having to lug around an infant in a car seat and have two parents with really busy work schedules. I got it because we had set an unofficial deadline for the end of this whole car search (which had become a saga) of yesterday and it was a low mileage, safe car that we liked that we had been able to find the time to get checked by a mechanic and we weren't sure when we were going to be able to do that again--shopping for a used car proved to take so much more time than I bargained for. We got it because regardless of the state of the negotiation yesterday, my wife pulled the plug. She liked the car and was tired of the negotiating and tired of the search. We got it because of the cars we were looking at at this stage--a low mileage but recent design Outback, a 2007 CR-V (my wife didn't like the old design CR-V) or the 2007 Rav 4 (even though I don't like Toyotas very much) it has a price that was thousands lower ($15.5 vs. $19K), and was many thousands lower than buyng a brand new Outback or similarly appointed CR-V or Rav 4--the only thing that might have given it a run was the Saturn Vue, but my wife would hear NONE of me introducing a new car into the mix on Friday, no matter how interesting an idea it was, especially from a brand that was vanishing (I tried to sell her on GM covering the vehicles, that it would still share parts with a Chevy, etc., but she just wasn't listening anymore). We got it because I took all of this into account and continued to see this as a car that almost was slipping through the cracks--it was a 2005 car priced like a 2005 car, but with the wear and tear of only a 2007--only 30K miles, and my mechanic said it really was in excellent shape (he was surprised how solid everything was). And finally, I got it because while I knew it wouldn't quite have the fuel economy of a CR-V (government stats showed the Outback coming in at 20 combined MPGs vs. 23 for the CR-V), I thought the price offset that, and I live very close to work and I put only about 6K miles per year on the Nissan, so I figured those 3 MPGs would be minimal.
But with all that said, I'm pretty dumbstruck by the premium fuel revelation. Never even considered it. i read volumes on the car and never noticed that or saw that in any of what I read (obviously I read the wrong things). It never occurred to me that a car that wasn't a luxury brand would need premium fuel. I just don't think about cars enough or read about them enough or know enough about them or how they work. The turbo just seemed like a nice to have, a revelation actually after years of driving a Nissan Sentra that literally had so little acceleration that I had to shut off the air conditioning to get up the hill down the street from my house.
Wow, I feel like a moron, but now so much of what so many of you said makes sense in a way it didn't before. When you woud say that an 08 or 09 Outback was a better deal at $19-$20K vs. the XT at $15K, even though they often had similar mileage because the XT had been so sparsely driven, well, of course it was, BECAUSE THE XT WILL COST ME A FORTUNE IN GAS.
Well, if anyone has any words of perspective to try to help me cast this in a tollerable light, nobody on this board would appreciate them more than me right now. Right now I literally can't look outside at the new car--never ever thought that is how this whole thing would end. The trouble with this is that it's the gift that will keep on giving every minute we own the car. I will be reminded of my mistake every time I start the car and hear the engine rev, every time I accelerate and pass someone, and particularly every time I roll the window down at the service station (remember, in NJ, you don't pump your own gas) and say "fill it up, PREMIUM". Unreal. I'm actually almost embarrassed that I'll have to 'say that at the station--who am I to be driving something that needs "premium" gas?
I really am on a budget--we have an amount we can spend and an amount we couldn't--and I was trying to make a choice that fit all that, while also giving us something we might actually like. Despite the final outcome of all of this, I really have appreciate your input. Thanks again for all of the input. Carspace is a good resource. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to cancel the gym membership to pay for the gas for my fancy "new" car.
Happy new year everyone. It's going to be a GREAT year.
Congrats & sorry we didn't mention the premium requirement earlier. When everyone reminded you that you were paying more because it was a turbo, the premium requirement for turbos was assumed. Live and learn - both for you and for us posters. But the bright side is that you don't drive many miles. If you calculate how much more it will cost you for the miles you drive, I bet it will be less than $150-$200 per year. Your insurance savings might make up for that. I've found that subarus have among the lowest insurance costs - something of major importance in NJ, where they don't even trust you to pump your own gas...Enjoy the performance of the turbo - and the utility of the "new" subaru.
Stop worrying so much and enjoy your new car. The turbo Subarus are really a hoot to drive!
Jeez...
Just relax and do the math. If you drive 15,000 miles per year and average 25 mpg using premium instead of regular will cost an additional $10 per month(assuming premium costs 20 cents per gallon more than regular).
That amounts to the princely sum of 33 cents per day.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I was about to call Powell myself if I didn't hear back by tomorrow because I noticed they pulled his profile from their website.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Life goes on, and when I'm driving it, I'll be glad I'm not in the old tin can. Plus, I learned a lot through this process that I hope I still remember in a few years, next time I do a car search. Definitely a learning experience.
I'd say the XT falls in that category.. enjoy!
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