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Comments
I found out that if I had done the same thing back home, the wait would have been eight months because there were only two MRI machines in the entire province of Alberta.
"Eight months?!" I thought to myself, "I would have healed by then!"
orange - That is the sweetest tax deal I have heard in a long, long time. I'm really considering buying the car out of SC now... I'm going to have to look more closely at this.
Also, with S. Carolina being so close, any ideas on how I could buy there and pay their CHEAP sales tax? I don't know anyone there but can see myself suddenly becoming BEST friends with bigorange30!!!
take care
fo
If you want to pay SC taxes, you need to move to SC. No way to get around that either.
If it's one thing that government is good at it is making sure that honest, private citizens pay taxes.
BTW, you tore up your knee and ended up in YNH? Does that mean you were a Bulldog once upon a time?
Are you up in Boston? My wife was a couple of years behind me as an undergrad, and has been bugging me to take a week off in the fall, head to New England and catch the change of colors. She loves Boston, except when its cold.
The drive I always really liked was I-91 in that stretch north of Hartford into Mass, especially when the leaves change. Coming from flat and barren wheatlands, I found it spectacular in the fall. I don't miss the humidity and the cold, though. Plus in California it's easier to speed than it is on I-95.
I miss New York and the East Coast, but not enough to ever move back.
Priceless .....
Terry.
IIRC, private party sales in CA were the same. I bought a few used cars from individuals and cannot recall paying anyone sales tax. But like GA, the State of CA nails you hard when you go to register the vehicle in your name. The difference is that in CA the state determined your registration fee based on the purchase price of the car. In GA its based on a state-devloped formula. The CA system could be manipulated by asking the seller to give you a Bill Of Sale for a lower purchase price than agree on. No such luck in GA.
Back from Texas, seeing a new guy causing trouble because of misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions...
Jim
Regards... Vikd
You have to understand that while you all may be honest sales people, lots arent, so the perception by the general public is that many dealers are shady. Therefore, if a situation comes up in the process..fees being a great example, that are a surprise to the buyer, then the natural response is that the delaer is trying to scam them, even if the fees are totally legit.
From the little info I admit that I have it seems Toyota has a special problem due to the way distribution is set up and the way fees are applied. I can understand that a buyer might get upset when a dealer starts adding on fees, especially after a price is agreed to. I mean, how does the buyer know the fees quoted are legit, and not inflated for extra profit? Therein lies a problem.
It all boils down to educating the buyer. Edmunds et al really doesnt do it too much in certain areas, so you should do it during the sales process, not just drop it on the buyer.
An example of this is in connecticut, where the state allows a "conveyence fee" to be charged, although the dealer sets the amount. The dealers post this fee on the wall in big letters, so buyers know it will be charged and why. Even with that people object, but at least it isnt a hidden, last minute fee.
It all goes back to the lack of transparency to the process of purchasing a car. The internet has made it easier, but it has also made it harder, as some of the peripheral parts of buying a car (fees for example), are poorly explained, so buyers have unreasonable expectations. This isnt the dealers fault, but they should go out of their way to explain the charges..perhaps by even having a chart on the salesmens desk or something.
The bottom line is that the car buying experience is still largely adversarial, so buyers will continue to have a chip on their shoulders until they feel confident that they arent being ripped. This makes it tough for the honest dealer, but the bad apples make it worse for everyone.
It will never happen, but the only way for the buyer to gain a level of confidence in the purchase process is a fundemenatal change in the car buying methodology. Until that far off day, boards like this one will always have people trolling around.
In closing, the honest dealers on this board need to recognize that while they think their actions are reasonable and honest (and assuming they are), that many buyers still perceive these actions/techniques to be shady. Its all a perceptual issue due to undeducated buyers, thats really it.
However say we had agreed to pay 28,000 for the car plus tax etc and than found another $400 in fees added on-we would not have been okay with that.
So,IMHO, the context is what is the driving factor in how fees are perceived.
Anyway, this only causes confusion if a deal is agreed to as invoice +/- $x, when the buyer only sees the 19,500.
And, if I misstated anything, I will gladly refund all your money, since you get what you pay for.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
As had been said many times before in these forums, it's the only way to take all the crap fees, ADMs, etc out of the equation.
As for the "Dealer's Club" within these boards, Scipio should take it as a badge of honor that his insightful comments provoked the barrage of personal attacks - the sure sign that his message hit home.
shop OTD prices only.
this is the easiest and quickest way to shop and compare deals. Any other method, I can trip up just about anyone.
Audi,
Would that be using jeffmust2's definition of out-the-door or rivertown's. I guess they can decide who's is right. :^)
On landru2's point, Scipio is a well-respected poster on the BMW boards.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Nothing like pride in the practice of one's occupation.
Love that term, 'non-transparancy'.
As for defining "out-the-door money", try this (assumes a purchase, not a lease):
1) I walk out your door with the keys and legally take the vehicle forever
2) You quote and accept the same exact sum of money you need to legally allow me to do #1, above. We both agree that I will never give you any more money nor will you ever ask for any more money.
3) Therefore, the money I give you shall forever be called...that's right! - Out-the-Door Money!
Must be Friday afternoon.
All Rich said was that he could trip up someone. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that he treats his customers fairly and gives them a good deal since I wager he likes repeat business and referalls.
Let's remember that there are unscrupulous car dealers and sales people (as there are in any profession) but I haven't seen any of them post here in Edmunds.
PS I also agree with Jeff it's true OTD cost that people need to concentrate on. As long as you believe you get a good deal does it really matter how the costs are broken down? That was rhetorical! I don't want to heat that up again. :-)
They ARE hard to spot. But I have a method.
Check the spot just to the right of their TH name...if there's NO AMERICAN FLAG - then they're NOT an honest auto sales rep.
Pretty simple, really.
dbgindy: Just how can you tell from a post on an internet bulliten board that someone doesn't practice shady dealing? Now, I am not saying that anyone here does. I am just saying you can't tell by what they write or what they say. Does a thief come out and tell you he is a thief? How some of you can defend someone you don't even know and have never seen in action or done any business with is hard to understand.
peeete: I too like your reference to transparency. Transparency promotes trust. Just look at what is happening on Wall Street right now. Shareholders are demanding transparency in financial reports for the companies they will buy stock in.
The problem comes when we as non car sales folks try to tell them their business without listening to the points they are trying to make.
That's what leads to the problems not good discussion.
Just my .02
Jeff I must say I know you just like to write things to stir things up but that joke about the sales people who don't have American flag was beyond bad taste.
Please explain.
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI
I prefer just to address statements and quote facts and links that I know along with opinions that I may have. I prefer not to draw any conclusion about the honesty or dishonesty of anyone regardless of the statements they make here. Its really not my job or right.
Even a politically incorrect sense of humor.
I didn't mention Canadians nor anyone else. Lighten up - you'll live longer.
In your profession are the sales people mostly honest or dishonest? In most sales professions I believe they are honest.
I'll tell you about 10 years ago I was a mortgage Loan Officer and the liars in that profession I'll bet percentage wise FAR exceed the percentage of dishonest car pros. I'm talking about sales people who work for a dealership not the guy who has a used car lot with two or less employees.
As to why I'm assuming honesty I just can't see a profit for any dishonest salesperson posting on these boards. There is no profit for the good sales pros but I truly believe they are trying to help.
I have no problem with you having your opinion but we can't tell them how they should be running their business. They sell a heck of a lot more cars in a month than you or I will probably buy in a lifetime.
I guess we just see it differently which is cool to. In my job we often agree to disagree.:-)
I understand SOME of it even though I don't like it. If its not going to affect the customer or he will never notice it, then why tell him about it. However, how do you know for sure that it won't affect him or that he won't find out? Some salesmen just get into that mode and let it go much further even into areas that they know would affect them but they just want to get the sale.
Its just the nature of some professions. How does a lawyer defend a guilty client. That person has the right to a defense. The only way he can and live with getting a guilty client off is not to ask the question about his guilt or innocence.
Only the naive person assumes everyone he encounters is honest.
Everyone is proud of their profession as they should be. Even a dishonest person would want people to believe that he and his profession are honest. What better way to promote your industry and encourage customers to continue to come in and buy your product. A high tide rises all boats. If customers have confidence, they will buy. Why not come on discussion boards and convince people that car salesmen are honest and that we should assume that when we go into the dealership. That is the easiest customer for the dishonest salesman to take advantage of.
Now if I could only learn to spell
Seriously, a few posts ago the Out the door price was mentioned as the only accurate way to gage a deal. It makes sense, except of course, what is included. I have the sense there are some iterations to this.
Is there a "definitive" definition of OOD? I "assume" that it incudes sales tax at the dealer's location; which may not be the tax rate in the buyer's home town. Does it includes such things as registration and plates?
Personally, I think it should include everything except sales tax, and the state minimum charge for registration (like $30 or so). Everything else, shoudl be included. This would isolate the two things that could vary: the tax rate of the buyer, and if plates are being switched or new ones ordered. If the dealer misquotes here (such as including too much tax by accident, he could blow the deal. (yes its his fault, but I think it should be avoided in the first place).
Maybe Im being too picky, but its that PwC training again
For practical reasons, OTD should be just selling price, dest. fee, dealer fees, and other contract-related fees like an acquisition fee.
1. If the dealer is in the same state as the car will be registered: OTD is the $ amount of a certified check that the buyer will hand the dealer, and drive off the lot with plates on the car. Everything's in there, fees, taxes, license, whatever. Alternatively, it's the total amount being financed, including all fees.
2. If the dealer isn't in the same state (i.e. it will drive out with temporary tags, and sales tax will be paid when the car is registered in the buyer's home state), then it's the total amount that the dealer will be paid (essentially, everything but sales tax and registration fees). Again, you hand over a certified check for $X, you drive the car out the door. $X is the OTD price.
You pay for a car and you get the MSO (Manufactors Statement of Origin), a temporary 'paper tag' in the back window, and go to a 'tag agent'. You pay the tag agent registration (taxes) and tag fees and they give you a plate and send you the title.
In my experience, it doesn't matter how you define OTD. With some dealers, the deal is gonna be non-transparent (still love that term) 'till the last minute anyhow; and there'll be a shot at a bump with something - doc fee, unnegotiated options, ad fee, whatevernameIcanthinkof fee, something. Ya still gotta be able to walk and/or talk.
The best fix I've seen yet is to request a copy of the buyer's order by fax before going to close the deal and pick up the car. Definitely worth doing if the trip to the dealer is significant, IMO.
LOL!
It's hard not to rise to the bait...I know!
is if they had a lot of experience doing it. Otherwise they could not have said anyone. I didn't call anyone a crook. It wasn't my statement. Usually one can assume that if someone uses the word "I", they are talking about themselves. I apologize if you were using the word "I" to mean other dealers.
He was there 12 yrs...............
BUMMER.......OTD means different things huh?
I bought my 2003 Hyundai Santa Fe (New) three weeks ago with 25 miles on the odometer. Since then, it's been a nightmare. First, the transmission went out and a brand-new transmission had to be put in. Then, the Crankshaft Sensor malfunctioned and had to be replaced. Each time my car spent 2-3 days at the dealership while the authorization and parts had to be ordered and installed. The final straw came today when my insurance company informed me that the VIN the dealership gave me (which matches the VIN on the car dashboard) cannot be verified through DMV's database...hence...the VIN doesn't match my car...so....no registration....no license....no insurance! I'm very frustrated and wondering if I'm not supposed to be owning this car! I've tried CarFax and my own insurance webpage - both indicate that this VIN does not exist! What do I do now?
Thanks for any suggestions.
earthscience
2. Research and apply for Lemon Law refund; where you live (CA) I think they're pretty strong
3. Lemon Law Lawyer if less expensive attempts to get your money back fail
4. Hey - doesn't the Santa Fe have that GREAT WARRANTY? (Sorry - couldn't resist)
Good luck!