Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

jocko9

However, this situation is way beyond "great warranty stage". He didn't mention anything about his dealer not repairing, or attempting to repair the malfunctions. So, the warranty worked, as it would have for any make or model given that it was purchased new.

The more troubling thing is the VIN descripancy. That's a new one on me. Never heard of a VIN on a new car being unverifiable, but I'm sure some of the veterans around here may have heard of this situation before. Very strange.

jimschlegel

I own a 95 Buick Regal. Worst rear brakes ever. Every year they need to be resurfaced and eventually/shortly replaced. Any help or suggestions. I mean besides dumping the car. I do a lot of city driving. Also my car has started a vibration(?) driving it or idling.had a super fuel injection cleaning done, changed spark plugs and wire had a tune up. Worked fine for a short time, now it's back. I think I have a good mechanic but what they're doing isn't helping. Any intelligent suggestions?

steve_on

A dealer thatwas at the other night had a couple of "unwinds", or cars where the finance fell out.

They did not seem to be doing much on coming off the price of a brand new car, what's the deal here?

Any dealer care to comment about the echonomics of "unwinds"?

chorton

But 7 yrs or 100k miles = ALOT of shop time. If I were to buy ANY Hyundai product it would be a STRIPPED accent-Radio and A/C ONLY

jasmith52

Here is the definition for your Sante Fe of a California Lemon (just in case !):

The Lemon Law commands that if a vehicle manufacturer or its authorized dealer(s) cannot properly repair a “material defect” in your vehicle while it is under warranty after “a reasonable number of attempts,” the manufacturer must either promptly replace your new vehicle or refund your money, at your choice. The Lemon Law applies to all vehicles (including trucks and recreational vehicles) purchased or leased in the State of California and under the manufacturer’s new vehicle warranty.

A “material defect” is defined under the Lemon Law as something which “substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the vehicle.” Most mechanical or drive-ability problems will qualify under this standard. The more serious the defect, the fewer number of repair attempts will be necessary to qualify the vehicle as a “Lemon."

What constitutes “a reasonable number of attempts” at repair is a question of fact that can only be answered on a case by case basis. However, as a guideline, the Lemon Law states that if within 18 months or 18,000 miles of use, whichever occurs first, either the same material defect has been subject to repair four or more times, or the vehicle has been in the shop by reason of repairs for material defects for a cumulative total of more than 30 calendar days, then the vehicle is “presumed” to be a lemon. In addition, for vehicles purchased or leased after January 1, 2001, if the vehicle is repaired two times for a defect is likely to result in serious bodily injury or death, the vehicle is “presumed” to be a lemon.

I pulled this info off of a lawyers website.

For more info you could do a search or look here

http://www.californialemonlaw.info/clls.htm

zueslewis

of "Implied Warranty of Merchantibility", part of the Uniform Commercial Code that basically implies the vehicle should not have broken in the first place, at least not at a catastrophic level.

masspector

How does a buyer negotiate a car deal from the top price down vs. the cost price up? Just curious how that conversation would go with the salesman.

bobst

should be something like, "I am offering $25K OTD for that car. Do you accept or not?".

If you don't hear a Yes, then you can assume the answer is No.

peeete

If it were only so simple!!!!

masspector

But is 25K OTD based on the MSRP price? Why would the buyer start out offering the MSRP price on a car that normally sells closer to invoice?

bobst

I assume the buyer would decide the exact price he is willing to offer before he goes to buy the car.

If he offers MSRP for a car that sells close to invoice, then he didn't do his research very well.

audia8q

bobst is right....make an OTD offer...don't get hung up of I will pay $XXX over invoice or the line items of the sale....who cares what they give you for your trade or how much the required dealer conveyance fee is if you get to or near your OTD number?
Always haggle the amount your writting the check for, and think in those terms when your doing your homework...When somebody wants to haggle every single line of the sale it often leaves way to much room for a problem.

If you do your homework you can get a good idea of the selling range. Somebody can find out in minutes here on edmunds... Terry and Bill can give you a good idea of the value of your trade...pretty simple...of course, If everyone is paying MSRP and waiting 4 months and you go in and offer $100 over invoice your in for a terrible buying process.

qbrozen

bobst has got it right. and, peete, it IS that simple. Try it and find out. As long as your number is reasonable (which means you've done your research on what others are paying and what your trade-in is REALLY worth), you just gotta keep shopping that number and someone will say yes. If you never get a "yes", then you've researched it wrong.

rerenov8r

...by making that offer to ALL the dealers that will listen. I mostly agree with audi8q, in that "...if everyone is paying MSRP and waiting 4 months and you go in and offer $100 over invoice..." and will not be a easy row to hoe BUT my experience of what constitutes "everyone" is different than the dealer/salesperson.

Case in point: I recently took delivery on my 2003 MDX Tour w/ Navi in the color I wanted. Of the NINE Acura stores in Chicagoland all but ONE were pretty much STUCK hard on MSRP. Through my research I found that dealers in other states WERE willing to sell for considerably less than MSRP. Fortuntely for ME & the Acura store in Orland Park IL we came to an agreement that while not QUITE as low as an out-of-state deal, made me VERY comfortable...

SO, I would have concluded that "everyone" WAS paying MSRP if I had only visted the 8 stores & not researched the situation in other states ( a situation that, admittedly MOST buyers will NOT take advantage of...)

masspector

I understand what you and the others are saying and it makes sense. It was just hard for me to understand from your post a while back, how a buyer could get a better deal by negotiating down in price, I assume from MSRP.

I agree totally with what ren posted. You have to research all options available, even if at first it seems kinda out there. Case in point is that if you read the RX330 thread in smart shopper, it appears that some buyers have gotten thousands off of msrp on these, while the dealers are saying they are still at MSRP and most are sold before they hit the lot.

mirth

I completely agree with ren and mass that if you want to get the absolute best deal, you have to go to every dealer in your area. However, personally speaking, I have neither the time nor the inclination to visit nine dealers getting quotes, even if it means I'm paying $1-2K more (though I suspect with most cars it would mean I was paying only $200-$300 more). My time is valuable to me, so I wouldn't visit more than 3 dealers, max, and preferably not more than one. I can get a reasonably good idea of the market before I ever set foot in a dealership, I make an OTD offer, and they either accept (or come close enough) or not. I'm not going to let a couple hundred dollars turn my vehicle shopping, which is already a pain, into a huge chore.

Just one man's alternative. It is possible to by a car easily, get an "okay" rather than "the best" deal, and be happy about it.

butchbr73

you hear it alot... i got thousand's off this rx330 or thousand's off this g35... or bought this e55 for a $100 over invoice. rule of thumb, don't believe everything you hear.

jasmith52

Mirth:

To ease the stress of car buying you could buy like my brother-in-law:

When you ask how much is that car, well they'll give you a price like MSRP or MSRP plus ADM fees.
Well all you have to do is say OK and write the check. This method has absolutely no stress and the dealership and sales people will treat you well.

rerenov8r

What kind of cars does your b-i-l buy??? If he tends towards run of the mill domestics & mass market imports I'd be happy to "accompany him" if I could pocket the $3K+ I'd save the guy...

jasmith52

For someone to buy a car - "the Easy Way" - you have to remember that to banter back and forth is beneath you. Pay full price and there will be no stress and you can also keep your dignity. Of course, for a person of this caliber, only high performance cars and high-line imports are worthy of any consideration.

I just posted this as a response to Mirth who wanted a stress free buying experience. He could probably take a lesson or two from my brother-in-law on car buying procedure

dbgindy

Mirth was not saying he pays full price . He was stating that it was a time vs. money thing for him. If he knew he was close on price it wasn't worth it to him to spend 12 more hours shopping 6 more stores to save $200-300.
He does his research up front so he has a good idea of what he'll pay and he gives them an OTD price. He'll never be a grinder but he will have a life outside of car shopping.:-)
Ian let me know if I misread your post but you sound a lot like me in car shopping.:-)

jasmith52

Dbgindy:

I know, I was just being a wise-guy and making the point that negotiation is at least somewhat stressful.

To get a great price you will need to experience at least some stress. To have a stress-free buying experience you will probably not get the best price.

dbgindy

Good point. Most of us just strive for that happy medium of a good deal that we are happy with and low stress. :-)

scipio1

"you have to remember that to banter back and forth is beneath you"

Awesome.

Alternatively, you could bring along hired help to do the dirty work. After all, that's what they invented maids, butlers, gardeners and lawyers for.

Salesman: Uh, who's the guy behind you?
You: Oh, don't mind him. He's just here to carry the bags of cash.

rroyce10

..... If you read the posts a little closer, the big discounts are on the ordered 330's .. can you get discounts on them, of course. But it takes a lot of time and patience, which is good business for the buyer.

        Kinda keep in mind on the 330's it's the huge re-sale on the 300's that keeps their prices on the new, high ... I could be wrong, but I also have a feelin' that there's a little "smoke" going on some of those prices, most dealers I know still get a hefty price on the 330's, $3,0/$4,000 off ~ I don't think so .. but, it makes for a good story.

                        Terry ;-)

rivertown

Shop the net. Contact a bunch of dealers in the time you'd spend on one dealer trip, cut loose the dealers who don't offer a competitive price or do offer 'tude, buy ya a car at a good price.

The typing, though - that's stressful. LOL.

mackabee

Just like what's going in my area with this van. No one is discounting these pups, yet you go to the Sienna "What did you pay?" thread and you see a wide spread of what people are supposedly paying. Had a customer request a price quote about a month ago on an XLE Limited. Quoted MSRP. Customer replied, "Will wait until I can get it at invoice." Not a problem. Monday e-mails me wants to sit down to appraise trade. Comes in we appraise the trade, ACV on a 2002 Sienna XLE. Show him MSRP (unit on allocation)less trade, plus payoff. Tells me "Let me think about it and I'll get back with you. Can I keep this?" He asks pointing at the worksheet. "Sure, take it with you." I reply. What's he going to do? Shop my figures around town? Yesterday morning he e-mails me and says "Take $3000.00 off the MSRP and we have a deal!" I reply "Sorry, no can do. I have a list 20 names long of people with deposits in house, paying sticker for them, give me one reason why I should discount this one?" later that day a couple came in an put a deposit down on this unit. Supply and demand. Works everytime.
                              : )
                              Mackabee

rivertown

net shopping. Some dealers wanting sticker (or close to it), others quoting invoice, and others quoting invoice - $1K.

Let your fingers do the walking!

crkeehn

It's easy to send out any figure through the email. Did you follow up to see if they would actually stand behind their offer?

masspector

butch--I never believe everything I read until i can verify it, and even then I am cautious. You can apply the don't believe everything you read idea to what the dealers are posting as well. It is a two way street.

royce--sorry I wasn't clearer on the ordered vs in stock. To me it is all the same, I am buying a car. I am never in a situation of having to have a car right away, and I do not mind waiting a while to get exactly what I want. Geez, I must be crazy, I FACTORY ORDERED a camry and a sable before that. Why is it that the ordered rx330's are discounted?

rivertown--I agree with you on the net being pretty stress free. After I had decided on my camry I emailed about 6 dealers, got some replies and did some follow up emails and within a few days, had a below invoice price plus a $1000 rebate. It did not take much time at all.

mack--Ah, time, the great equalizer. I have never understood the mentality of buyers that have to have a hot selling car as soon as it comes out. There is so much competition in every vehicle type that you can surely find a close vehicle that sells for less than MSRP. If the corolla is hot, buy the civic. If the sienna is hot, buy the ody. The PT cruiser and Tbird are great examples of this. A year after they were out, the prices were much more reassonable. A little patience puts a lot of mola in your pocket.

rroyce10

..... Based on the info from some of the Lexus dealers, most are already sold .. an ordered item can take 9/10+ weeks .. that being said, I would "assume" the buying market will get bigger with winter at their door steps .. so it would fall into place, if you don't want it, the next buyer does .. they are certainly Not distressed merchandise and there is a big demand for them ... also keep in mind, a certain nameplate on the hood can make ALL the difference in the world ..

                        Terry.

masspector

thanks for the reply but I am still a little confused. What is the incentive to the dealer to discount an ordered unit when he knows, that in 10 weeks, most are already sold or the next buyer will buy it at msrp? Thanks

rivertown

I ended up buying $2K under published invoice, at a local dealer. 'Twas a funny market though. A not well selling car (Civic Si), model year change-over, end of December, tons of trunk money, etc.

The spread on quotes was wild. Yes, I sensed some of the quotes were bogus; but then some were specific and had that 'straight shooter' tone. I just blew off the bogus quotes - thanking them for their time, etc.

The deal I took was the 2nd best quote, and I negotiated down some ($200). Had I been more willing to make a trip, I could have taken the best quote and saved another $800. The best quote was confirmed with a net ad (7 at that price).

Next time I need a car, I'll go net for sure. The only thing I'd add is a request for a faxed buyer's order to confirm the offer before I make the trip to the dealer. It wasn't really necessary this time, since 'twas a local dealer; but it would have saved some floor sales games. (I think I read the fax idea in one of Mass' posts.)

mark156

If I follow your post correctly, I can see why they don't come back, they would be SO embarrassed if you found evidence that they didn't get a good deal. The deal is done, bringing the paperwork to you will not help them now. They will feel like they are on the hot seat just to get a free dinner.

Mark

steveb84

Mark,

I guess it didn't read well, and there were other issues involved too. It wasn't meant to embarrass anyone.

jeffmust2

I'd LOVE to get an offer like yours when I'm car shopping...one should never pass up an excellent meal - and certainly not one where a vendor picks up the tab!

That's a Golden Rule I've learned from MY clients over 30 years of a (non-auto related) sales career.

I used to believe the idea that since all dealers buy their vehicles from the factory (or a wheat field!) for the same price, on a clean deal with no trade there won't be much difference in the OTD price for the same exact vehicle; maybe a couple hundred either way.

I don't believe this anymore and I'll give you two examples.

1) Last year, long before the new Sienna came out, Ody EX-Ls were selling pretty much at MSRP in my area and several colors were hard to come by at all because of the annual model changeover period then in effect. My wife's girlfriend needed a new ride because of an accident; she tried to buy an Ody for full cash for two weeks to no avail, hitting all the showrooms within a 15-20 mile radius - she couldn't locate a silver one even at full MSRP. Weird but true even though we have dozens of Honda dealers in the extended area.

I helped her with two hours of search time on the web and she located her exact vehicle about 50 miles north of town and got a price $1000 under MSRP. Excellent deal for the dealer, excellent deal for Julie, and for ten minutes I was a hero. The delivery went off without a hitch a few days later.

So the question is - why would that Honda dealer sell a "hot" vehicle in a popular color for $1k under MSRP when that was NOT the going rate at other dealers who offered to "find one somehow" at MSRP?

I don't know the right answer but it probably has something to do with that dealer's exact situation that day we sent them an email.

So if you were one of those other Honda dealers, Julie would be dining on you that evening.

2) A more recent example from two months ago - my sister-in-law needed to quickly get out of her Acura MDX lease a few months early and get into a cheaper vehicle; she likes Acuras so I helped her shop a lease deal on the TL that is being replaced by a new model in a few months. Acura factory is offering a 36-mo lease deal that seemed attractive except the drive-off isn't well disclosed and she had no cash to put up so the appraised amount of resale equity in the MDX (unreal value used!) was vital. I contacted ten Acura dealers and of the 7-8 that responded professionally, one was clearly the best deal - with monthly lease payments (after zero drive-off $$) that saved her about $1300 over the 36-mo term.

Beats me why one Acura dealer out of ten could offer a much better deal - they certainly weren't the biggest dealer of the bunch...AND they reside in an expensive part of town. And all the dealers said they could resell the MDX in a matter of days.

So I guess that would be another dinner, right?

mirth

db - that's dead on what I meant. Trying to find the happy medium between stress-free and good deal. All negotiations are stressful to some degree, but one ten-minute negotiation is a whole lot less stressful than nine ten-minute negotiations. With a decent price, too.

river - I'd love to be able to sit in my house, send out an email, and get reliable price quotes back. However, the dealers in my area either don't respond to quote requests or just say "come on down" anyway. The system that Edmunds touts doesn't work if the dealers don't cooperate. So I might as well just call the guy who gave me the test drive and make an offer.

rivertown

with you, Mirth. Not all dealers do the net thing straight, and it does seem the 'showroom, make an offer' thing is more the rule. I also agree, making an offer to the test drive guy is good and right. If he takes it, cool! Having a net offer in your pocket, even from out-of-area, makes a cordial 'No, thanks!' to the counter-offer easy.

I really like the net for sorting the wheat from the chaff. My take is that wheat-chaff sorting is necessary, showroom or net. No need for a buyer to stay captive in a market.

millspd

Hey River,

I have heard you and a couple of others mention that the latest generation SI hasn't been selling well. Any particular reason for that? I have fond memories of the older SIs and CRX's too.

sbell4

Statements like "no one is paying near invoice on a 2004 Sienna" is a bad thing to tell someone. I've sold these vans from a little over MSRP to a little UNDER invoice. Nothing in life is cut and dry all of the time.

wildcorgis

I've seen some advertised on some dealer's web page and didn't know what it meant.I think it has something to do with a vehicle deal falling through for the buyer. I don't think they are dealership personal cars? Are the cars considered new? with mileage as an obvious consideration, are they discounted heavily?

thanks ,

Steve

tiredofmanual

The current Civic Si isn't selling well mainly because the cost is a little high relative to the performance. I think this is biting Ford with their SVT Focus as well, but when you can get a much, much faster car for just a thousand or two more, well, you know where those kids (and their parents money) are going to go.

Aditionally, the Si looks an awfully lot like a miniature Oddysey, which doesn't help too much with the kids that want to look cool.

jasmith52

An "Unwind Car" is a car that was sold by a dealership of which financing could not be arranged. The car therefore comes back to the dealership to be re sold as the "unwind".

The unwind refers to the deal, as in the deal has to go backwards and unwinds.

These cars are losers in time and money for the dealership. Although they are technically used cars they can be a very good value. Check it over and if everything on the car looks OK then it may represent a great bargain.

rivertown

I agree with tiredofmanual; the looks are a little weird at first glance and the price:performance ratio looks bad on paper.

The looks issue is getting better, IMO; the Si now looks like the little sibling, with Mom being an Oddy and older bro being a Matrix.

To my notion, the real prob is marketing. MSRP is nearly $20K, and most folks don't expect a deep discount on a Honda. So, I think many buyers reject the Si on MSRP alone.
(A shopper's price, however, is closer to $16K+-; and I don't know of a car out there I'd rather have that I can actually buy at that price.)

Then, it's a manual tranny only car.
And, it's a torquey devil rather than the screamer previous gen Si's were.

All in all, I think it's MSRP that discourages interest from the get go. Hindsight is always clearer; but in retrospect it sure looks dumb to change a car's character, over price it, and lead with one's chin into a depressed market.

utah_street

I am currently looking at buying a used 2002 Ford Explorer with 17,000 miles from a dealer. He bought the Explorer at an auction. His price is $21,700. Edmunds dealer retail price is about $21,000, Edmunds private party price is $18,700. What is a reasonable price offer to this dealer?

sutrock

I recently stopped by to look and test drive a Tacoma. I felt comfortable with the salesman and I was impressed with his product knowledge. Everything was going well(he indicated to me he knew I wasn't buying that day) until his sales manager got in the picture. Long story short, he was perplexed that I would come to his lot not ready to buy that day. Is it a crime to take a test drive, look at the options available, compare colors side by side in daylight, etc..., so I then can do more research?I would like to buy from that salesman(if the price is right), but was turned off by the manager. Why can't we just go by a lot and not get the high pressure stuff for once?

jasmith52

You just had your first experience with a turnover lot. You were "turned over" from the friendly-likable salesguy to Guido the high pressure closer who was has a talent for getting people to buy - that day.

Next time you are interested in just looking, tell Guido that you would love to buy if he can approve your loan with no down payment and your 350 credit score and bankruptcy. Hell launch you pretty quick after that allowing you to look over the lot all you want.

audia8q

I would spot your line in two seconds and tell you to get out your pen and lets write it up, we can have you driving in about an hour...we get people approved with credit problems all the time...

then what would you do?

remember when your mama told you that honesty is the best policy? she was right!!

jasmith52

Do they expect you take the car and to make payments too ! Maybe I was a bit too obvious !

But seriously, If you just are looking let everyone know - up front that you are NOT buying a car today at any price.

What I also should have posted above is that these guys are trying to earn a living - so don't waste their time.

scipio1

"... that'd be great. It's not a problem if I lost my job a couple months ago, right? I was sure I'd have a new one by now... The only thing is, it means I can't really afford a down payment or anything right away. In fact, it'd be nice if we could work something else where I could start my payments at the end of the year."

Come on, there has to be a line somewhere, right?