Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

frnkrzzo

pretty ballsy of the toy store to give you a printout with things like "finance reserve" on it. im not sure what all those abbreviations are, but i do know what finance reserve is. it is the extra profit the dealership expects to make by handling the finanacing. it includes things like "etch", gap insurance, extended warranties, and also points tacked onto the interest rate. i think those other unknown abbreviations probably arent going to be in your interest either. there are many stores out there with enough built in profit makers as to make the whole issue of agreeing on a price absolutely fruitless. it would seem as though you have found one of these dealers. run like the wind, brother.

frnkrzzo

drive to the dealership. park the truck in front. go inside. demand your $1000 back. saturday afternoon at say, 1-3 pm would be a good time to do this. i htink you will magicly qualify for your 15.5% loan. if for some reason you dont, jsut raise a rucuss until they refund your 1000. you'll win either way.

graphicguy

Ohhhhh....this does not sound good.

Let's assume for a moment that you paperwork, did indeed, fall into a hole for a month. Let's also assume that your original 15.5% APR can't be had (what have you done.....defaulted on every monthly financial obligation you're ever had?). This sounds a lot like a "sub prime" deal.

If all the above is true, look very carefully at the paperwork you signed. See if the dealership has an "out" clause regarding getting you financed. Usually, it will say something about the sale being contingent upon the dealership getting secured financing, and if they can't, either you get the financing or you return the vehicle back to the dealership, minus the fees stipulated in the contract.

First thing I'd do is to go to eloan.com and see what financing you would get through them. That will tell you whether the finance rate is competitive, whether the dealer F&I flogged you, or whether you can get financed at all.

IF the dealership still has your trade and assuming the dealer's financing terms are In the ballpark, I would offer to give the truck back to them (less any mileage/useage/broken contract fees....which could be hefty) and you take your trade back.

If you find more favorable terms through eloan or your local bank/credit union, tell the dealership you've got alternate financing from Xxxxxx financial institution. Or, if they tried to "flog you", I'd use frnkrzzo's advice.

I'd be interested to hear more facts about this case and what the outcome is.

volvomax

Transparancy isn't the issue.
Frankly, the customer doesn't need to know all of our expenses and issues.
Anymore than I need to know my builders expenses and issues when buying a house, or my tailors when buying a suit.

The stock market is a perfect example of information being dangerous.
Too many amateurs think that since they have the info available to brokers that they can manage a portfolio as well as a pro. Naturally they lose their shirts most of the time. Stocks are like used cars, they change in value all the time. Sometimes they change in value radically in a short period of time.

Information is no substitute for knowledge and experience.

borked

well the reason i got that apr, is because i have 0 credit because of my age, never had a credit card or anything, a cellphone thats about it. also I had no cosigner, and its not just a matter of $1k its my car all in all I put 5500 down on that truck.

borked

thanks for the input ill try eloan, the contract does have an out clause for them. What kinda fees are we looking at here? I have to pay them for their mistake is what you're saying?

graphicguy

OK....now the picture's a little clearer. Little/no credit history. Still, 15%-18% sounds steep....particularly given you put $5K down.

What does the contract specifically state as to what needs to transpire if....

#1--credit can't be secured?
#2--if it can't be secured, what does the contract stipulate the process/actions that should transpire?

eloan should be able to tell you today whether you can get credit and what the terms are.

Let's start there and see if you have a better rate on tap. We can take the next step after that (how to approach the dealer).

borked

Well first, the contract stipulates that
"a: Seller agrees to deliver the vehicle to you on the date this contract is signed by Seller and you. You understand that it may take a few days for Seller to verify your credit and assign the contract. You agree that if the seller is unable to assign the contract to any one of the financial institutions with whom the Seller regularly does business uynder an assiognment acceptable to seller, Seller may rescind (cancel) the contract.

b: Seller shall give you written notice (or in any other manner which actual notice is given to you) within 10 days of the date this contract is signed if Seller elects to rescind. Upon receipt of such notice, you must immediately return the vehicle to Seller in the same condition as when sold, reasonable wear and tear excepted. Seller must give back to you all consideration received by Seller, including any trade-in vehicle.
c: If you do not immediately return the vehicle, you shall be liable for all expenses incurred by Seller in take the vehicle from you, including reasonable attorney's fees.

d: While the vehicle is in your posession all terms of the contract, inlcuding those relating to use of the vehicle and insurance for the vehicle, shall be in full force and yuo shall assume all risk of loss or damage to the vehicle. You must pay all reasonable costs for repair of any damage to the vehicle untill the vehicle is returned to Seller."

First, reading this is starting to freak me out a bit, am I at risk right now of them coming to take my vehicle, no I have no received any written notice but when I went down there they tried to make me sign a new contract. I politely stated I didn't have time to do that right now(I was having surgery for wisdom teeth in 1hour) they said ok call me later. I also said that 15.5% is what I was promised and I don't feel comfortable about this situation. He(the manager) said he will call FORD MOTOR CREDIT and see what he can do about 15.5%. This was yesterday, so am i at risk now? Should I return the vehicle immedately? I know he didnt say anything about me being at risk, but what is said and not written doesn't mean squat. Cause its funny during the signing of this contract, I asked about the rescind clause, and he SAID dont worry about it, you'll get 15.5 you're approved, and I said well what if you guys cant get me approved he said bring the truck back take your car and you get $1k in free gas. Of course this was all said nothing was written.

Now E-Loans, said they can't approve me and have me forwarded off to their partners.

kyfdx

1) They didn't contact you in 10 days

2) Tell them they have to buy down the rate to the original quote, or you want your "consideration" back. About $5500, right? My guess is they will spend the $500-$600 to buy your rate down...

Don't sweat this.. They will pay FMC if need be to get you financed at the original rate...

regards,
kyfdx

borked

Quick question, if I like the truck, but I don't like the deal I got could I use this to get out of my contract, take my money and go to another dealership. Because I know I way over payed for this truck, so this whole thing might be a blessing. After licenses and taxes Im paying $17763.98 for a BASE 4x2 reg cab toyota 5spd. Looking at places like carsdirect, I could saved about 3k going there. What do you think I should do, try to get out and find a better deal or just take it and look at it as a lesson learned.

frnkrzzo

i never said 15.5 was a bad rate. that's about the right rate for a 1st time buyer with limited credit history. the guy above that posted how sub-par the rate was apparently didnt read your entire post. i was unaware that you had a trade involved. in my opinion, this puts you in an even stronger position, especially if they sold it or sent it to auction already. they arent supposed to do anything with your trade in until the bank funds your new car. obviously, this never happened. whatever bank they are using will have a cap as to the monthly payment amount they will finance for you. the dealer may be telling you 18% now because to get the payment below what the bank would authorize, they may have had to extend the term from 48 to 60 months, which would account for the rate increase. i gotta tell ya though, id go back and demand exactly what i was told, and let them know if it cant be done you expect your money and your original car back. calls will be made. concessions will be negotiated. youi'll win this one. just my opinion.

kyfdx

If you are able to get out of the deal, I see no problem with doing that.. But, if the dealer gets you financed at the original rate, they aren't going to let you out of it...

But, if that is what you want, go for it... I have a feeling they'll bend over backwards to keep that from happening.. they aren't going to want a one month old truck back..

What I would do: Once this is straightened out... is shop to get the truck re-financed... A little shoe leather and phone work might get you an even better rate..

regards,
kyfdx

borked

Just so happens the dealership just called me, they said they're gonig to drop the price of the truck to cover the difference the new apr will cost me, i believe you're right i think i have them in a pretty vulnerable position. Maybe for once the buyer will have the upper hand, a buyer with no credit mind you. I told them I'd be down there tomorrow morning to resign, but maybe do a little renegotiating too?. Think I can get them to go lower on the price of the truck, maybe go in there talking about TMV. Something like "Since we're renegotiating here, I feel I paid too much for the truck, on top of the fact of your shady practices, with prmosing me one thing and delivering another." Bait and Switch maybe? "Let's talk about the price of the truck, or talk about giving me trade(or value of) and cash down payment back.

graphicguy

borked.....kyfdx has you going in the right direction.

As far as unwinding the entire deal, and you just giving the truck back because you feel you paid too much, that's not going to happen. I don't know if you have them in a vulnerable position, per se. They're meeting the terms of the contract you signed. I wouldn't bet they'd be willing to do anything more than that. But, you can try to renegotiate. The worst that could happen is they can say "no".

They'll get you financed at the 15.5% APR.

Like ky says, you can always get it refinanced somewhere else if you can find a better rate with a little research.

Toyotas are good trucks with good resale. You should be OK since you had your trade equity and money down. In a couple of years, you'll have equity in that truck.

kyfdx

If they are lowering the price to get the same payment, make sure the term of the loan is the same.... don't go from 48 to 60 months, or 60 months to 66 months..

This is a real bonus.... if you can get it re-financed, then you'll save even more money, because the initial cost is lower..

regards,
kyfdx

graphicguy

One more point, and one you've just learned, do your research BEFORE you walk into the dealership....not after you've made the deal and signed the papers.

thenebean

i am surprised how many people come in here and post "did i get a good deal?" AFTER they signed the paperwork - too late! if you get screwed, there's nothing you can do. these resources are here to help you beforehand, and its no fault but your own if you were not aware of what the vehicle is selling for on average, and ended up paying way over that...not to sound harsh, just the reality of it all :-P

just my 2 cents ;-)

-thene

borked

understood, thanks for everyones help, ill go down there and try to renegotiate. like ya said worse they can say is no. thanks everyone!

borked

also, about refinancing, so for that I should just wait about 1 to 1 1/2 years of good solid payments let it hit my credit then try to refi by going to say like eloans and applying for a loan in the amount left on my truck and hopefully getting lower rates?

kyfdx

Heck no.. I'd start looking now.. I'd wait for that lower price on the truck first, with the higher interest rate... then, get on the phone...

If your credit history is just short, and not bad.... you might find someone to re-do you at a significantly smaller number... I might be wrong... the dealer is obviously having problems getting it done.. but, maybe they just aren't real bright at that store... it happens..

Maybe see if there is a credit union you could join at work... If so, they are likely to write you for a low number... This might turn out to be a good thing..

But, yeah... if you can't find anything now... try again in 12 months...

regards,
kyfdx

frnkrzzo

i agree with the other guys. if the dealer drops the price to get the same payment with the new rate, you're actually better off than the original deal already. although the payment will be the same, the payoff at any give time during the life of the loan will be less than it would have been under the old terms. if you want to negociate further than that, i'm not sure that would be very polite, but you mentioned bringing up tmv. if tmv is less than the price you paid, i am absolutely positive they have at least 2000 profit in their deal already. usually, with not so great credit, you dont exactly have much of a bargaining position. with the curcumstances you have though, you have a really good chance of comming out on top here.

typhon1991

The thing that everybody needs to remember is no credit is almost as bad as bad credit. With limited or no payment history the lender is taking a bigger chance on the loan. That rate is average for a first time buyer. The other thing is that a lot of lenders charget the dealer an aquisition fee to do Sub Prime loans. Customers usually don't know about this but it is a common cost of doing business. They are usually between $300 and $1000 depending on the lender. I'm just letting you know some of the possible facts before you go in to try to renegotiate. Don't get your hopes up too much on a lower price.

borked

im not getting my hopes up, just going with the attitude whats the worse that could happen? they dont wanna lose my business and take back a used truck and fish up my car that theyve had for a month now. also

Im paying a little ofr $15k + lic fees for my truck and tmv for my truck is around $12.9k, I think I have some wriggle room. We'll see i go in to battle tomorrow. ill update ya guys

rroyce10

Helloooo, did somebody forget this part ...?

> your contract was declined from toyota and ford motor credit."

All do respect there Borked .. but Fomoco is buying dead people with fake passports and Yota isn't far behind them, so you got some problems - serious problems .....

> **they dont wanna lose my business**

What business.? ...... $5,000 down and you still got bumped.? ... bud, you "obviously" have a credit situation going on here, so I don't see where you are holding any cards .. you just need to get some credit established -or- your not giving us the whole story ...... this isn't a dealer thing, it's a you thing .. grab the vehicle, make the next 6/7 payments on time then go out and refinance it thru your local credit union or the local lender and go on ....... sometimes you just have to earn your wings .. not argue with the lender about how well you "might" do in the future ....



Terry :shades:

bobst

If they decrease the price of the truck to compensate for the higher interest rate, then you should acept the deal.

Other than that, you should live up to your end of the bargain. It would not be honorable to try to re-negotiate the price of the truck. No good Klingon would do that.

explorerx4

this is quite a story you have. i would leave the 'shady practices' part out of any future discussions. it would just be antagonistic. see what they have to say, maybe you can get a little more.

joecarnut

I think I got some decent quotes on some Toyotas and would like to know if there is a way to make sure I get that price when I go to visit the dealer.

Thanks........Ken

toyotaken

Get the quote in writing with Stock or VIN #'s listed along with MSRP and equipment faxed to you. Other than that, you'll have to trust what they say is true. Surprisingly enough, there are some honest people working in the car business.

Ken

gregjohnson

Anymore than I need to know my builders expenses and issues when buying a house
You're either kidding, BSing or you've never built, right? Your loan is with the bank and they don't care what kind of house you get for it. I've lost more on one building project gone bad than I ever thought possible, and so have a lot of other people. I don't even let anyone else pay the expenses but me any more, and I know exactly what every check is buying. BTW, wanna buy a house just North of Atlanta? I took the hit, you can have the fun.

The stock market is a perfect example of information being dangerous.
Mmm, no.

Lazy investors, pro or otherwise, usually underperform the market. The "pros" a retail investor has access to rarely outperform the market and almost never do so consistently. This says more about the difficulty large portfolio managers have escaping the mean than their skill or work ethic. Dedicated individuals managing accounts under 100 million are the most likely to consistently outperform, but like any small business investing has a 90%+ initial attrition rate.

Personal belief: A dealer's advantage lies in the general population's willing ignorance. I think you could post the lot's books down to the penny on the bulletin board and web site and not impact the bottom line.

gregjohnson

I purchased a new 2-door coupe (Honda Accord) two months ago, and
Bristol,

Welcome to the fun house... I would say "Your particular mirror is over in RWTIV", but someone recently observed that my posts are... convoluted.

So, I say unto thee:

" Post this in Real World Trade In Values in excruciating detail. Re-post it (daily?) until Terry notices it, and gives you the bad news."

My guess: Hondas and Toyotas "should" be bought new because they hold their value so well it doesn't make sense to buy them used. You knew this, which is why you bought your Accord new, right.? This helps you, BUT it might take a private sale to get the value out. If you need to trade here and now...

Personally, I wouldn't lose more than $1,500, but I'm a freak. (Just ask around)

-Greg

N.B. I am not a dealer, but I posted in "Ask a dealer" and now I can't seem to get out...

gregjohnson

...but maybe do a little renegotiating too?

Dude. You made the original deal, they're doing right by you. Finish it or kill it, but either way have a little class about it.

-Greg

graphicguy

I'm with Terry on this one....with $5,500 down in trade equity and down payment, FoMOCo and Toyota finance should be falling all over themselves to write the note.

If I'm reading this right, you paid $15K for a vehicle that should sell for $13K. OK, you're still fine but, you put $5,500 down, which brings the loan amount to $10K plus TTL. All that sounds dandy, unless the details are different than above.

I dunno....there are some salient details missing from this scenario.

Are you sure you had $4,500 in equity on your trade (or were you upside down with no equity that they rolled into the price of the new truck)? You put $1,000 cash into the deal, right?

What was your trade? Was it paid off? Did you stiff your landlord, the electric company and Ma/Pa Kettle's corner grocery?

No problem being young with no credit (How "young" are you, anyway?). There's just too much that doesn't add up.

Yes, please let us know how things turn out.

sbell4

I must be a geek..........I got the reference about the Klingon

kyfdx

No argument here..

danf1

Congratulations, you haven taken the first step in your recovery...... admitting it.

volvomax

You are still not getting me.

I built a house last year. I know my builder made a very nice profit on it.
But here, the housing market is a sellers market.
My point is that my knowing how much he had invested wasn't going to change what I was charged.
My point is that retailers make profit all the time. Knowing how much someone makes for building a house or selling a suit or a washer is immaterial.
If you like it and can afford it and feel that the price is fair for what you get, what difference does it make?

Stock market. I'm talking about individual day traders, not pros.
Amateurs, like those people who "know" what their trade is worth.

Bottom line is my books are none of your business, anymore than you should have to walk around wearing a sign that says "Last year I made $XXXX.XX"

mirth

Bottom line is my books are none of your business

I hear you, and in some sense you're right, but the special nature of car buying pretty much demands that I know your invoice. Here's why:

1. The amount of money being spent. If I go to Best Buy right now and buy a typical 31" TV right off the shelf, I can be fairly certain I'm not overpaying by more than, say, $50. With a car, it could be a grand or two.
2. In house buying, the other major dollar purchase most people encounter, I can guage the market by going to a real estate agent and getting the selling prices in the area, or even city hall. Can't access that kind of info for new car sales.

By knowing the invoice, I can get a pretty good idea if my price is "fair", since typical bread-and-butter cars will sell within $1000 of invoice, and many within $500. It's pretty much the only barometer we consumers have for this major purchase.

borked

i just went and asked for my car and money back, i just dont wanna deal with them or any of it anymore. Seems I had a lot less to worry about before this whole new truck thing happened. So minus the money I paid for insurance, I guess i'm good.

Only one thing bugs me, when I went down there and asked to let me out of the contract because they did not follow through on their terms. He was very nice about it, he said ok sure! we'lll let ya out no problem! Oops, we sold your car unfortunately, I said "how can you sell my car without finishing OUR transaction first" He said once you give us your car we own it and we can do whatever we want with it." So we argued for a minute over what he actually needs to do and I read him their own contract saying they need to give me my full cash down and trade in. He was arguing the contract said "or value of" which it does not. He then said "give me to the end of the day to get your car back." I said, well i'd like this truck out of my hands as soon as possible. So if money back is the quickest way out of this that's fine, and seeing how the car has been sold to another party already, and has been out of my hands for 30 days. I don't know what kind of condition you're gonna try to give it back to me in. He said "that's fine!" He said "give me till this afternoon."

Honestly something doesn't feel right, it went way too easy. He was much to easy going about letting me out of the contract, and remembering how hard they fought me to get me into it, seems odd. I think they have another trick up their sleeve. While he was being nice and polite he was throwing little shots in there about, "If your payments are the same what does the interest rate going up matter." I said, honestly I just don't like the way you guys handled my business." "I had to come down here to point out YOUR mistake" He said "No, we've been trying to contact you." I said "Really cause you know where I live, you have my house, cell, and work number. How is it you couldn't get ahold of me?" His reply was "That's what i've been told we've been trying to get ahold of you."

I said "How is it that you guys had no idea what I was talking about when I came down here to point out this mistake then? How come I was told I fell through the cracks?" he said that I was given the wrong answer.

Anyways right now, I'm waiting for them to come back at me with some new trick, or maybe theyll get crazy with lawyers or something who knows. I just want out of this mess.

kyfdx

..if they were going to have to lower the selling price to get you financed, then maybe they didn't like the deal as much as they did before....

If you were happy with the price they gave you on the trade-in, then maybe it all worked out for the best (assuming it does work out).

If you have a nice little chunk of change to put down on a car, you shouldn't have too much trouble.. But, check into other financing before you go.... (credit unions, etc.)

regards,
kyfdx

mikefm58

Let's not forget one thing, they don't have their money either, so they have every incentive to do SOMETHING and will not ignore it FOREVER.
.
I don't envy the situation you're in and I seriously doubt that they still have your trade in. But the guy you talked to doesn't know what to do so he's telling you anything to keep you happy without really doing anything on his part.
.
If I were you, I'd offer them one of two deals.
1) Tell him the financing terms you're looking for and be reasonable about it since you said you have no credit yet.
2) Tell him how much you want for your trade-in and then cancel the whole thing. They give you back your cash down payment plus the dollar value for your trade-in.
.
My guess is that they take option #1. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

qbrozen

He's going to do the deal as it was written before. I think you can be pretty confident with that.

It comes down to one fact. He does NOT want that truck back! He would have to give you back the full selling price, but then have to turn around and sell it for LESS because its now a used car! That would be a big hit in the dealership's pocket.

sbell4

it could be that they are not going to beg you to buy the car. It appears a mistake was made and they tried to make it right. You were not happy with what they suggested and you offered a suggestion of your own and they agreed to do that.

MORAL OF THE STORY: it is only a car deal. This is not life or death. Be careful of your threats because it can come back to hurt you. I will always believe it is better to be up-front and honest if you want the best outcome.

maybe you cannot get financed and the dealer is backing the loan. What are you going to do now that you are without a car and if you can't get financing?

sbell4

real life scenerio: a "big hit" isn't that important to a dealer as you may think. Thousands upon thousands of $$$$ are negotitated daily. It all will average out in the end. Clerical fees (DOC fees) alone can equal well over $1,000,000 yearly. A few thousand dollars "hit" isn't anything to lose sleep over. Mistakes will happen from time to time. Again, please don't try to outsmart yourself. It is only a car.

cadillacmike

"In any business or industry there is a certain amount of proprietary data.
Information that is none of anyones business.
Mmm. Let's see. DeBeers, OPEC.... Volvo? At least OPEC's product actually faces some degree of natural scarcity. (Yes, Virginia, diamonds are rocks. Actually, they're carbon crystals. Yes, the same carbon as in "carbon based life forms".) "

That's why I refuse to buy diamonds, My wife likes gold better anyway :P

butchbr73

...""I had to come down here to point out YOUR mistake""

....this is where I think this person may be wrong. The fact that you can't get credit or get a loan is not THEIR mistake. It is an issue between you and the bank(s).... That is YOUR problem.....

joecarnut

Thanks Ken for helping me out.

Did you mean "in writing" as in not just over the phone or verbally?
And would an e-mail be considered good enough?
Sorry for the silly questions but I guess I'm just getting nervous.

Ken

kyfdx

Having invested all this time in reading this thread.. I'll have to disagree here...

They have ten days (according to their contract) to get him financed.... and they are supposed to inform him, in writing, by then.. He had to contact them after 27 days...

They screwed up... but, I would have taken them up on their offer of a lower price and higher interest rate with the same payment.. I don't think I would have passed up that part of the deal...

regards,
kyfdx

toyotaken

It depends on the reputation and the feel you're getting from the dealership. If they're not reputable, I don't know that I would feel good about the purchase at all, but if they're reputable, over the phone, email, or preferably via fax with a copy of the manager's business card and signature on the purchase agreement should be fine.

Ken

geo9

Didn't work so well in this deal.............................

So what happens now?

rroyce10

...... Nothing will happen .... the kid can't buy steam off a hotdog and he was probably flipped in his trade anyway ... so they will get his trade back or "X" amount of dollars from the ACV and call it a day ...

I love this part: "I had to come down here to point out YOUR mistake"

Here's a "Credit Criminal" telling the dealer about "his" mistake ..l.o.l......



Terry.

PS: they didn't have a cashable contract, it wasn't funded .. so the title was never flipped.