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I agree with you 100%. Anybody who doesn't give the first salesman a chance to price match is more than a jerk. The best description for a person who does this can't be written here. I don't buy cars that often but I just bought one in April and I did just that, gave the first guy a chance to price match and he did. The second guy was via an internet quote so I didn't have to run around to get his price and I don't feel I wasted very much of his time anyway. Had the first guy not matched the second guys price I would have been gone. I'm talking about $800 here and since you know what I'd do for $1000 (post 13253) the second guy would have gotten half of this (his choice) plus the dog and some goldfish if he wanted them.
What I don't fully understand is why doesn't a salesperson, once they see that the buyer is truly interested in buying and not just trying to amuse themselves by test driving cars, give the customer their best price. Are you trying to make the car buying experience painful at the risk of losing a sale by allowing the buyer to walk away to see if they can do better. With all the information out there now, it doesn't take very long to be somewhat knowledgeable. I do realize that some of the information out there is not always correct and is misleading but isn't it worth a shot when you know the customer is right, to not let him get away. I believe $235 was the price difference here and you said that you could have worked with him over this difference. Was it worth it to let this guy get away if you could have done better with your price especially with what you feel you had invested in this deal?
You come across as an intelligent guy, would you consider changing the way you handle this type of customer?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
They belong to country clubs and the like. They market themselves as much as their cars. They keep in touch with you almost to the point of being annoying. But when you are ready for your next car, their names come to mind immediately. These people also stay at one store so you will know where to find them when you are ready.
its not that cut and dry...and i've given very aggressive prices to people who bought elsewhere because they just needed to get rid of a car, or had it in stock, or a variety of other reasons...it happens...
-thene
I don't know why I ask..... but, 95% of salespeople tell me they have only worked there for 90 days or less..
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Be careful what you wish for, it may come true. and lastly....
Have you ever wondered why a Lexus dealer treats his customers so well? Wonder why the High roller gets treated so well in Vegas? Wonder why the fellow in the penthouse suit of the Luxembourg got the ring side tickets FREE to the big fight?
He paid all the money for something else...and they EXPECT the rest.
You can demand by demanding, threatening, and begging....I have found that paying works just as well. If you don't want to pay...then you get what you pay for.
Doesn't condone lying, cheating or misleading, but it does cover the endless posts I see...re: the dealers profit. To heck with profit. Hopefully the service will match the charge for the service. That's all I expect from a store of ANY product. But that's just me.
It has been my experience so far that car sales makes us all thespians.
whether it is good for anything else, i cant say :-P
-thene
No one put a gun to my head and made me stay selling cars. I will stay until I retire with the hope that I can help some young couple not put their future in hock over a car or truck. That some retired schoolteacher isn't saddled with a truck she can't really use for "this really low 60mo lease".
But wait...you asked why there are so many 90 day sales persons.
Because the guy that was trotted out to that 90 day wonder. A fellow sitting at that desk on the showroom floor, sells 20 cars a month and makes 90,000 a year. So the young person thinks...wow, I can do that. He doesn't know that as soon as a managers job comes up, that 20 car guy is NOT going to be on the floor anymore. The 20 car guy doesn't want to deal with manager changes, and quality issues with the cars he sells, or the service manager that doesn't understand that his customer isn't obtuse, but hard of hearing or that the engine used in that Chevy was a poor design to begin with or that the customer base doesn't really care if HE is there in a year....they just want the lowest price.
The 90 day wonder sells all his friends, relatives and a few folks, like yourself that stumble upon him. Then he looks at that paycheck and realizes that he could make just as much working 9-5 as a clerk and moves on.
If I could find a car dealer that didn't change philosophy every three or four years, I would manage. In twenty-eight years I haven't found one. No one listens to the customer. They tell you what they want, and if WE told them what we REALLY want, that would be nice too...but our industry doesn't really listen...parts of it do, but only for a while...then it's on to the next "business model" "floor management system" or "customer control module"
Why don't they listen? Well the last round of of "Family/Employee/what we pay" sale says it all. Before the sale you could buy a Chevy for the same amount...a Ford truck leased for a LOT less than it does..and the sale amount was really the same as well...I would suppose Chrysler would say the same...but the "SALE" brought Chevy a 41% increase in June sales...the attendant Ford numbers are forthcoming but I would guess from MY sales this month that they are going to be huge. The price didn't change. The deal, if you will, actually got worse but the customers came in droves. They will flock to the Toyota CLEARANCE sale in December (there is no money or incentive given to the dealer...just one heck of a lot of advertising by Toyota)
The dealer/manufacturer thinks...wow, SHEEP!
So Rollie shakes his head and figures out how to break it to this young couple that the Mitsubishi that they didn't have to make payments on for a year is worth about $5000 less than they owe..that the Chevy truck the consumer rolled $4000 of inequity into is worth $8500 less than is owed and that the 60 month lease the nice Ford dealer across town put you in is...well, you aren't getting any new vehicles for a while.
I really have the answer to all the confusion and frustration in our industry.
It is, however, like everything for sale. I won't give it away. If you buy a car, truck or SUV from me, you will get it free of charge, but if you wish to understand it, in any other way....you will need to write out a rather hefty check. You won't be able to find it on the NET...or in a "How to Buy Your Next Car" book. It's not mystical. But it is hidden in plain sight.
...and so it goes
I'm lucky that I work for a dealer that hasn't changed it's philosophy in almost 60 yrs.
My advice is to get out of low line sales and into hi line sales.
(Generally) better working conditions and better earnings potential.
i've been here nearly 2 years - but this is not a career for me. i enjoyed helping people, and being honest, and letting people know how it really works - that we all dont sneak, steal, lie or cheat - and i learned a lot myself in the process...
however i am tired of the hours, tired of the pay, and tired of being treated as i am by people. i dont know how many times ive been "beaten" by the schmoe down the street for $100, and i never hear back from anyone. all my honesty, knowledge, and time, has gone for naught.
and so, im leaving the business - but will continue to respect those who do it. i dont care about invoice prices, factory to dealer incentives, holdback...i care what i have to spend, and that i can get the car i want for what i have to spend.
the car business is like every other business - we are here to make money. but because our cost is known to the general public, people haggle, knowing that "hidden incentives" will keep us afloat...no worries - the dealers are making tons of money! all the salespeople have rolex watches and gold chains and drive bimmers...
oh well, never got the rolex, the bimmer, the vacations...but i got an education - and i helped others...but im done now.
sorry for rambling...
-thene
gm/chevy/saab etc- cut all their rebates the day they went to that system. on some models, they cut them in half. i think they actually stayed the same on the malibu though. i dont think any real gm employees actually bought a vehicle while they were doing this.
ford/lincoln/volvo etc- cut some of their rebates by about $500 when they went to this. several models didnt change. not a bad deal.
chrysler/dodge- from what i could tell, they took a set amount off the sticker price of each vehicle. i doubt VERY seriously if this move had anything at all to do with true employee pricing. unless, maybe chrysler/dodge doesnt really have a true employee pricing system already set up.
feel free to cuss / discuss me.
You make a good point, it just happens to be mine as well. Here's what I mean.
"... especially with what you feel you had invested ..." It is because of what time and effort I had invested that I feel I earned the extra gross.
It's not the fact the customer should feel obligated to buy from me, it the fact that once he does buy from me, he should know he will be taken care of. He has to be sold on the whole picture of things. Remember, price is a one time thing.
Also, this is not some run-of-the-mill type of car or dealership type we're talking about here, and you guys know that. It's not like this guy is going to buy the car from me and me forget who he is in a month or two, like you might see at larger domestic dealerships.
jmonroe,
You asked me if I would consider changing the way I would handle this type of customer in the future, and I guess I would have to say no.
I did everything right ... showed differences in cars with options, built value, etc. If I go into every deal scared that he will leave and call other dealerships and eventually buy at another dealership w/o giving me a shot to match, then all I will do is piss my gross away and lose credibility. Yes, lose credibility.
The minute I become an "old car dog" and ask a customer "What's it gonn a take blah, blah, blah," the customer realizes you're really not any better than the next guy.
I appreciate the "intelligent" comment, and you come across as a very smart, informed consumer. However, after reading what I just posted, you may change your mind.
But as I see it, well ... that's the way I see it.
bmw3434
Thanks frnkrzzo,
I think you have just confirmed what I have always thought. No matter what deal you get you could have done better if you spent more time shopping. Just how much time and how far are you willing to go to get it is up to the customer. I don't blame sales people/dealers for trying to make as much as they can, it's just business. Car dealers don't owe us a thing, we owe ourselves a thing. What's the old saying, "caveat emptor" or whatever it is, it sure does apply to buying a car !! All that we car buyers are trying to do is keep as much money in our wallets/purses as we can when we leave the dealership.
As I've said before on another post:
"no matter how good of a deal we might have been able to make, it is ALWAYS good enough for the dealer or the dealer wouldn't have made the deal."
After all, it is the dealers car, doesn't he decide how much he wants for it, do we car buyers really think we can dictate price? Any car buyer who walks away thinking he just killed the dealer is probably the guy who just got beat up the worst. Look how long some dealers have been around, 30,40 50 years, nobody can be getting killed that long and still be around.
Thanks again for the confirmation.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Check out my previous post (#13254).... Most people that get into car sales just can't hack it, for one reason or another. As I said, there is a good amount of turnover. These are not the people I was referring to when I said $35k-40k per year.... Those are salespeople that stay in the business and are "middle of the road" salespeople. The dropouts are probably making the equivalent of minimum wage. Like someone else said, they realize they could make the same money as a clerk and not work as hard and work far fewer hours.
While some salespeople/dealers will let you take a car out for an extended drive (even for the morning or afternoon - which is great!), I certainly understand when the store can't (or won't).
My problem is, however, how do I get the same sort of time behind the wheel? If I schedule 2-3 test drives, won't that be a major pain in !@# to the salesperson (especially those that have to accompany me)? Is there a way of doing this, without sucking up a lot of a salesperson's time?
Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. much appreciated!
Mike
-thene
Thanks,
Mike
bmw3434,
I don't think any differently about you after reading your reply. You still seem like a pretty sharp guy to me and the type that I wouldn't mind doing business with on the rare occasion when I buy a new car. I just hope, for your sake, that you will be able to ride out the ups and downs of your business and the people you have to deal with (both customers and management) on your way up.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
another way is to rent one - if you find a place that rents out the vehicles you are looking it, rent the one you are most interested in for the day - some people do that when they really want to put it through its paces...
good luck!
-thene
Unless you want an exotic ...
Then you can make an offer contingent on a decent test drive. Yes, a specific dollar-amount offer that you stand behind.
Then the dealer may let you take the car on a 15-20 mile test drive. You should not expect anything more.
1. dont EVER do a 60 month lease on ANYTHING.
2. dont buy a car you know will sink like a brick in value (deawoo, mitsubishi, jaguar, saab, kia, hyundai, isuzu, suzuki) unless you intend to keep it until you have paid for it and you in no way think of it as an investment.
3. do your own financing.
4. do not buy the extended warrantee or the etch.
5. never ever buy anything with any "dealer adds" of any kind.
6. never go for the "tire warrantee".
7. buy exactly what you have your heart set on as long as you can afford it.
8. dont try to get a new car every 1-2 years.
how's that?....i didnt even charge for it.
dont ever finance longer than 60 months on a purchase. some banks are now offering 84 months with strong credit. i hear chrysler financial is offering 96 months to anyone with a pulse. i cant wait to get the guy 1 year deep on an 8 year note on a freeking ram quad cab with a hemi trying to trade his rig in on something sensible. if you cant afford the 60 month payment, get something that costs less. you'll save yourself lots of heartache.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would strongly suggest financing for no longer than 48 months, with 36 months preferable. Use the old-fashioned method of buying a car - save up your money until you have sufficient down payment, either including your trade-in or the down payment by itself.
Also, if you intend to trade cars every 3 to 5 years, make sure you buy a car with better than average resale value. This generally implies the Japanese marques (mainstream Honda and Toyota are the best), and only a few USA marques. However, if you keep your car longer than 8 years (which many people are doing these days), the depreciation rate becomes rather irrelevant. In these instances, you might be just fine with a Hyundai (which are improving by leaps and bounds with each new model release) or others.
Its already here. The S40 starts at under $24k, as a matter of fact.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm in the market for a new car later this year or early next year, and I'm considering buying a gently used 05 model, particularly if I choose a Chrysler minivan, which as a domestic brand I know is supposed to have painful depreciation. I've looked at inventory for a few of my local Chrysler dealers and notice they have a whole passel of gently used 05 Town & Countrys--where gently used is under 20K miles, sometimes significantly under. Out of this passel of cars, only one or two of them will be "certified used"--sometimes there are other vans with a lot less mileage than the "certified" van.
What's the deal with this? Why does a dealer "certify" one still pretty-new van and not another? Should I read from this that if it isn't "certified," it's probably because they suspect something might be wrong with it? One of my in-laws is married to a woman whose family owns a Toyota dealership here in Central Texas, and he has told me that in general, if the dealership CAN certify the car, they will, and I should not look at used vehicles that aren't certified.
What do y'all think about this?
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The sticker was $23, but after reading all the guides, looking up black book and other market info I could get my hands on - I figured the car was worth $21 - the sticker was $23. It needed 4 new tires, which I specified I would purchase, they would put on. So the cost to me of those tires I figure will be about $500.
My last offer was 21 and they didn't go any lower than 22. They let me walk and gave me my $500 deposit back that I had put down so they wouldn't sell the car over the weekend when I was out of town.
It's a nice car. Should I just suck it up and pay the extra $1000? That would make my total cost (including the tire purchase) 22,5 + tax. More than I think it's worth but maybe it's just market conditions and there's not many 2003 models used for sale. High black book on this car is 16,3.
I don't mind the dealer making a profit but I don't want to pay for his next diamond ring. What do you guys think??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Have you checked with Terry on Real-World Trade-In Values just to confirm your findings?
Personally, I usually don't pay more than $2-$3k or so over auction value. So if that black book is correct in this instance, I wouldn't be breaking $19K on said mystery car.
you really should double-check that number with Terry, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I tried terry but he never responded... i figured he didn't have Canadian data.
Mystery car is a 2003 Subaru Outback
frnkrzzo,
I'm sure I understood your post 13273. What I'm saying is, a customer has to do their best to get the best deal that they can. Front end, back end,up,down, or side ways !! If he is getting ripped on the back end this is not the best deal that can be made. Isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? From your post, your words, " i was also pointing out that, a lot of the time, very smart, very educated people that do a tremendous amount of shopping and get the absolute "best deal" end up getting absolutely ripped on the back end of a deal. as a street smart self educated guy, i cant tell you how satisfying this is.". Again, isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? As for your comment as to how satisfying it is to you to see customers getting ripped, this tells me and anyone else reading this, it's this kind of dealing/thinking that has given your business the reputation that it has. When you say "very smart, very educated", you must mean in a field other than car buying. As as you have already confirmed, smarts in one field doesn't necessarily translate to smarts in another field. Again, (I have to keep saying this so that it is clear that I mean INFORMED as it relates to car buying) if you are an informed car buyer you aren't going to get "absolutely ripped" you'll probably get just a "little bit ripped" when you buy a car. You guys are much better at this than the car buyer is, you do it all day long. You know what the real costs are, we're just guessing.
As for your words:
like i said, i've seen the "little old lady who lives down the street" walk in, pick out what she wants in about 15 minutes, doesnt argue any pricing, and walk out with an absolutely great car deal. i dont mean it would be cheaper to go into a dealership, settling for the first car you find and paying sticker. all i'm saying is you dont always get even an average deal by price shopping when it comes right down to it. I think you said two different things here, 1. doesnt argue any pricing. 2. not paying sticker. I think what your saying here is, cars are never sold at sticker. I guess you always take a very, very modest amount off because even "little old ladies" know that nobody pays full sticker. I hope you don't think anybody believes that you can get anywhere close to an average deal (whatever that is) without doing at least some price shopping.
As for your comments about too much education being a bad thing, from where I sit you can never, ever have to much of an education when it comes to buying a car.
When it comes to buying a car I'd prefer to deal with guys like bmw3434, rolson1, toyotaken, or thenebean (oops, can't go to this guy, he doesn't do this anymore, seems that he doesn't have the stomach for this business anymore and that's a shame). It's these guys and guys like them that are the only ones that me or any other car buyer should be dealing with. They are also the only ones that have a prayer of turning the negative image of the car buying process around.
Unless I've misunderstood again what you have written, but I doubt this could happen again, I don't think I would want to do business with you. I know this will probably break your heart, ruin your day, cause you to go home early, and who knows what else but that's how I feel after reading you posts.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
WELL... that makes it tough ... I could see Subies being in more demand up there, too. HOWEVER, $22K seems like a lot for a used Subie to me. Even if this is pretty well optioned, what was original purchase price? $27K? $28K? The vehicle is almost 3 years old now. They just don't hold their value THAT well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's just got the standard options, plus limo tinting on the back windows.
It is getting darn close to 3 years on the road - September. She did the % of what they expect at 24 months for leasebacks, at 55% of wholesale it came in at just under $20k. Then she started saying so I dont' think that 21-22-23 is really out of range. Well hold on you just rounded up 3k!!!
And I thought I was the only one who felt like that......
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Like........I'm calling to offer $1K more than I did yesterday because I think I over valued my trade. Salesman says...Fair enough, we can do that. So I go in and he starts negotiating again.....grrrrr
Or how about....I'm calling to see if you have model x in red with options a, b, & c in stock. Sure we do come on in. After showing up, finding out they never had it.
This was just recently used on me and co-workers.
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