i was under the impression we were talking about a used car...in which case it would be used to begin with. if it is, in fact, a new car, your point is not valid because the car would never have been titled if the loan was not funded, which obviously it was not. if the dealership were to take it back, they would technically have a new car with a couple thousand miles on it....not really a big deal for them. i'm kind of stunned about the outcome of this. i would much rather have the same payment with a higher rate and a lower price. i would have just taken that if nothing else was possible.
Thanks for everyones input, whoever guessed earlier on that they would pay ford motor credit to finance me at 15.5% was right. I got a call back saying he was going to pay X amount of dollars to keep my interest at 15.5%. I think the figure was around $1600, he said he was doing this and whatever he could to make me happy. I told him if he wanted to make the customer happy why wouldnt he just take $1600 off the price of the truck for the customer instead of giving it to ford motor credit. He just said he'd rather do it this way. I told him that was fine as long as the original contract i signed was being honored and no new contract had to be signed I was happy.
Again thanks for everyone's advice. Refi is my next goal when I establish good credit history. All in all, i'm pretty happy with how things turned out. I think they just wanted me to roll over, and take the new rate. Stuck to my guns now they're eating it. I did get 1000 over blue book for my trade in(that was a 2 hour long argument), so that offsets the price I paid for the truck i think. Thanks for all your help guys! Dealership is sending someone out to my house tonight to pick up a check from me because they're saying since it's so close to the deadline for my payment they need to send it in with the contract.
Agreed. there's nothing holding you to the deal if numbers change. And if you leave a deposit on a credit card, you don't even have to worry about that being an issue either as you can call the company to reverse the charges if need be.
Can this be? bobst and I actually agree on a method for shopping for vehicles???!!!
If you like it and can afford it and feel that the price is fair for what you get, what difference does it make?
I agree that car buyers should concentrate simply on finding the lowest price a dealer will accept for the vehicle they want and, once the deal is done, enjoy driving it. But I also think cars are a unique purchase, unlike a house or a teevee.
I, too, live in a sellers' housing market. Three reasons people overpay for a house: 1) they expect the house will appreciate or at least hold its value, and 2) they focus on the monthly payment and current interest rates help keep that down, and 3) the tax code encourages home ownership.
In contrast, cars are a terrible investment from any rational viewpoint, and it's easy for the buyer to get upside down, owing more than the thing is worth. Since your car is probably the second most expensive commodity you'll buy, it just makes sense for the buyer to respectfully but firmly press for a straight answer to the question, "What is the lowest price you will sell this vehicle for?" Different dealers will give different answers to different people, so it makes sense to treat a car acquisition as a business deal, not an emotional splurge.
I am not sure this is the forum for this, but I will give it a try. My mom is leasing a 2003 Mercedes and has 12 more payments on the lease. The AC went out and the part is not available until NOVEMBER. She uses her car for work/clients and cannot do her business without AC. The dealer will take $9K to buy her out of the lease (total horse pucky) or roll her into a new car. After the level of "service" I have seen, you couldn't pay me to drive a Mercedes. Not one person has uttered a "geez, I am sorry about this". Any advice on getting out of this car?
Still too much that's unknown about this scenario that's getting harder and harder to understand for my feeble brain. :confuse: There are some facts here that we just don't know and no one is divulging to make any sort of workable recommendations.
We.ll, sounds like she is going to lease a new car anyway when this one is up. Sad as it may sound, the best bet may be to get out of this car, and into a new one.
Maybe a new one, same payment but a fresh 36 months. Forget about the buy out.
If they won't do that, for the price you pay for the three pointed star, they should put her into a loaner. Not that that is likely to happen. Maybe they could canibalize a new car on the lot for the part?
kyfdx, ...i'm not a lawyer, but if you read what was posted as clauses in the agreement, I think you can follow. The "seller" will try to get the contract financed thru its normal outlets (finance institutions) it typically uses on a daily basis. If the "seller" is unable to do, they have the right to rescind the agreement (cancel).
In order for them to rescind (cancel), they need to notify you (the buyer) in a 10 day period. Nothing there says the buyer can cancel the agreement. Nor does it say the contract is void if the above actions fall thru and the dealer is unable to secure proper funding thru their channels. In the end, the buyer made an agreement to buy the car at a price. I think the buyer is obligated to come up with the money for the purchase in one way or another.
Anyone with the appropriate background can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the guy was stuck in the purchase agreement.... now, the dealer may be inclined to cancel, unwind the deal and take the car back if they are never going to get paid....? It may be in there best interest to do that. But, there may be some penalties to be paid by the buyer....
But, I think it's absolutely wrong to put blame on the dealer for the credit problems he's having... especially expecting them to make concessions b/c of his lack of credit and not being able to get any sort of loan. Maybe I'm missing something here (or missing a bunch of relevant details/additional contract language)....?
.. **just take $1600 off the price of the truck for the customer instead of giving it to ford motor credit. He just said he'd rather do it this way** ...
If you read thru the smoke and haze, he ended up being "conditioned" by Fomoco .. that means they would only finance "X" amount of dollars because of his bad history, so the profit was rolled somewhere to keep the deal together .. you're right, there's more to this story then we'll ever know -- typical BS customer.
" Here's a "Credit Criminal" telling the dealer about "his" mistake ..l.o.l......"
I dunno Terry, the man has a point... at $3k profit it's no wonder they tried to spot-deliver...and it backfired on them. Fair enough, but if they can't get him bought, they can't just sit on their hands... it's up to the dealer to figure this one out, not the customer.
I agree though, the original deal ought to be honored by both sides.. if it can be done.
And it's not the dealer's fault if the customer can't get bought. But there's got to be follow-up.
"Dead people with fake passports" indeed...
Borked: I'd rather pay too much on a Taco than get a deal on an S10... so count your blesssings...
i've an '03 S-10 ZR2 sitting at my chevrolet dealership's service center for the fourth time in two weeks. one day and four miles after they replaced most of my AC and HVAC system, my engine overheats with no warning. coolant's at a rolling boil, radiator is stone dry, took myself and another to pry the cap off, the coolant smells burnt, and fluid (including dexcool) is leaking out of the passenger wheel well. it's towed to the dealer just as they close. dealer won't issue a rental. next day, i get it back with the answer of "the radiator cap wasn't sealed". obviously, that's crap. goes back a day and a half later for the coolant smelling burned and it's still overheating and now my engine has a constant loud roar like a cold start, it's not shifting smoothly or properly, and my rear differential's making noise. they found rust in my coolant system. say they've fixed it. ibrought it back an hour later say hey, it's not fixed. the service manager says he can't see it again for two weeks. took it back yesterday and said it has major issues on long trips. it ran for 3 1/2 hours straight, wouldn't shift until redline in any gear, wouldn't shift while accelerating, shifts were hard, i had little to no acceleration at times, in short, the engine was working way too hard. they told me they can find no evidence of any of these problems after a ten mile test drive and have no way of simulating or knowing what would happen after three hours. i called chevrolet (i've been talking to them daily since this started) I was informed by them the serv. manager no longer wanted to see this vechicle and would not service it after this appointment. is it true that because the dealer is privately owned it can deny to service a vechicle under warranty and chevrolet can't dispute that or do anything about it?
In your case, another dealer might be in order, along with repeated calls (and a case started) with GM customer service. That, and put in a call to a lemon lawyer. With the problems you listed, that thing sounds shot!
Also, it makes it easier to read your posts if you put in some paragraphs.
Good luck, and your post makes Mathias seem prophetic!
terry: Oh, right, the title was never flipped. I didn't think about that.
frnkrzzo: But, all in all, they did make the deal happen as written, as I suspected would happen. So I wasn't completely off base. And, yes, I'm pretty sure this all started with this guy saying he bought a new base 4x2 toyota truck. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure its a few pages back there somewhere. So, at the very least, it would now be a "demo" car and they'd more than likely lose more than the $1600 they supposedly paid to make the deal happen.
sbell4: no, the reality is a business is a business. they are going to take the path of greatest profit. The results obviously illustrate this. I'm not sure how this leads to "outsmarting" oneself.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hey.. borked didn't do anything wrong.. He went in to buy a car.. Obviously, they had his credit history, or he wouldn't have been quoted at 15% APR...
And.. when no paperwork was forthcoming after 27 days, he took the iniative to call the dealer and find out what was up...
Regardless of his poor credit, he did the responsible thing... The dealer screwed up by not getting something done in ten days, and had to eat $1600... That can hardly be his fault. If they didn't want him as a customer, they had the option to let him walk in the first place..
As Mathias said... At least he was smart enough to get a bad deal on a Toyota, instead of an S-10..
And, as I said... "All is well that ends well".
If you don't want BS customers, don't sell them a car..
I rest my case. I'm not slamming holdback, but neither is it as sacrosanct as many dealers wish it were. (According to the conversations here over the years)
> we DO pay the invoice price to the manufacturer when the car comes in
Umm, you meant to say "Whomever we're financing our floor with DOES pay the invoice..."
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you seem to have fallen into the qunintessential marketing weasle's trap of thinking that something is "worth" what an individual buyer will pay for it. In reality the important metric for thinking people is ACV.
This sort of parallels the "Capitalism v. Communism" and "Freedom from v. Freedom to" discussions that have cost so many lives over the last few centuries. Fortunately, not many die from poor car buying. (Though, really, you could argue that to the extent higher car pmts displace medical spending there is a direct correlation between "putting them in the weeds" and killing them.)
If you like it and can afford it and feel that the price is fair for what you get, what difference does it make?
Stock market. I'm talking about individual day traders, not pros. Amateurs, like those people who "know" what their trade is worth.
Do you see how you're arguing both sides of the fence in the same breath? Why is an amateur's "known" price not completely justified by your first statement?
Bottom line is my books are none of your business, anymore than you should have to walk around wearing a sign that says "Last year I made $XXXX.XX"
But... Ummm... Isn't that EXACTLY what a Beacon score is? (Ok, not really, the scores also use timeliness of payments, outstanding debt, etc. It's really much more detailed than the break-out on one car)
-Greg
P.S. My point is that my knowing how much he had invested wasn't going to change what I was charged. Yeah. Right. Just wait until the unpaid subs start liening. Want that roof you thought you paid for? Well, get ready to pay again. From a guy scummy enough to be credible, I've heard of one builder who closed 3? 5? projects the same day, then took off for the Caribbean with the draws in his pocket. Might well have been the guy I was talking to.
BEWARE HOMEBULDING, IT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS THING YOU WILL EVER DO
Isn't that a bit harsh? Maybe you're reading something in to the guy more than I am........ . And maybe a typical BS customer should go to the typical BS dealer, like the one I tried to buy an 04 Corolla from last night.......He was asking almost MSRP of a brand new one and wouldn't budge, kept throwing in his dealer fees......sheesh. Needless to say I'm still looking.
I don't know if I'm not being clear or you aren't comprehending me. A trade-in car is only worth what someone, dealer, wholesaler, individual will pay for it. If the number the amateur car buyer has in his head is one that no dealer or wholesaler will touch, is his car really worth that much?
Beacon or Isaac scores don't really reflect income. We have customers making $10,000, 15,000 per MONTH with 600 scores and little old ladies on social security w/ 800 scores. My point is that there is a certain amount of resentment towards making money. If you knew a dealers profit and bottom line it would cloud your attitude too much. Same as if you had to wear a sign saying last year I made $100,000 and my net worth is $500,000. How would the clerk at starbucks feel? Would that $4.00 latte suddenly become $20.00?
BTW, I'm sorry your builder sucked, mine was a breeze to deal with. Probably because I went with a large reputable firm.
Ya, i'll have to agree with kyfdx. They showed me my credit history the guy said "i'm a ghost." If I did have horrible credit, why would they fight so hard to make me happy. I've gotten 2 more phone calls one from the manager and one from the original salesman who sold me my car(his name is Terry) by the way. Trying to insure me that it was the banks fault not the dealerships, and they hope to have me as a return customer. He started talking about just make about a year of good payments and build up your credit then come in and trade it in. He said I shouldn't refi, cause refi would make me owe longer and i;d end up upside down on it(didn't make sense to me) but I was saying whatever I could to get off the phone with him. Also he started crying to me about how it ended up being a negative deal, and they lost money on it because of everything. At a truck I see normally in the paper at 12.9K I bought at MSRP for I believe $15.2K. Now correct me if im wrong but even if they sold it at invoice they still make profit, with kick backs and stuff coming from toyota. Anwyays after financing and everything I'll end up paying $23k for a base model tacoma. Could I have done better? Yea, but with no credit history and no co signer everyone has to start somewhere.
Honestly I believe, they knew they could'nt get me financed at 18%, and wrote it up anyways. But messed up on the 10 day part so had to eat it, but normally most people who don't know any better prolly go "oh ok, ill pay" because theyve already had the car for 10 days and itd be a hassle to get the original back. Being that it had been 27 days, the truck they would not take back cause it had about 1700 miles and my car was probably long gone. So they blew it. I think this is a tactic dealerships pull all the time, I felt like i had to take a shower after this whole thing, lol sickening really. However, quite entertaining.
And it sounds like the dealer was sloppy but finally got things straightened out. Forget what they said about driving it for a year then trading it in (with them) instead of refinancing. Of course they want you to trade in a year old Tacoma and buy a new car from them next year, but it's not the best thing for you. After 6 months of payments you can probably refi and cut the interest rate by at least 5% or so. If you're worried about being upside down you can always refi to a shorter term.
Enjoy the Taco - nice little trucks, and they hold their value very well.
"He said I shouldn't refi, cause refi would make me owe longer and i;d end up upside down on it(didn't make sense to me) " It's what most people would do on a refinance, but you can pick any term you want (and they let you).
"Now correct me if im wrong but even if they sold it at invoice they still make profit, with kick backs and stuff coming from toyota." You're wrong... there are no "kickbacks and stuff" except for holdback, which is not considered -- and isn't usually -- profit.
Here I pause for Craig to gasp.
"Anwyays after financing and everything I'll end up paying $23k for a base model tacoma."
WHAT???? I thought you bought the truck at MSRP -- in your situation, not a bad deal. Where did the $23k come from?
For what it's worth, a car dealer friend of mine told me about a deal on a used car last year with a customer who had bad credit: ".. I didn't make any money on the car because I had to pay the bank $800 to get the loan... but if she makes all the payments, I'll make $1800 on the back end."
So it is likely they had to kick some money into the deal to make it happen. Count your blessings and let them hatch... or something.
.. **Regardless of his poor credit, he did the responsible thing... The dealer screwed up by not getting something done in ten days, and had to eat $1600... That can hardly be his fault. If they didn't want him as a customer, they had the option to let him walk in the first place..** ...
Your missing the whole point .... our boy Bork was "conditioned" from the bank, that means Fomoco restricted his loan amount .. just like if you wanted a $500,000 home and the bank would only lend you $350,000 ....
In this case, I'll bet the dealer had already received a "full call" for all the money from Ford and washed out the deal and dropped it in the "done" basket ... that said, we don't know if there were any "stips" that were asked for like employment records, bank records for the last 12 months, income, etc - so again, we don't know the whole scenario here .......
27 days tells me it was a bank problem, not a dealer problem ... so what happened was, Bork calls Fomoco and they show no record.? .. but Ford keeps a record of every deal that was approved -or- declined, so they showed no current loan .......... in his last post he says: "they said I was a Ghost", it's old verbiage but I know what they meant ... there's no such thing as a "ghost" nowadays, unless you have 15 passports and you use Joan Rivers plastic surgeon ........ Bud, give me a SS# and a birthdate and I can find Marco Polo's Ex brother-in-law ...... something doesn't sit right here.
holding out for that last $100.00 won't change how much you are buried in 3-4 yrs.
Agreed. It's the $5,000 or so preceding that final $100 that will determine whether the buyer owns the car at the end of three years or still has another 1.5 years of payments.
Manufacturer rebates are taken off at the bottom of the contract so your state can collect their sales tax, which is figured on your original purchase price minus any trade-in (in some states).
Most of the time, the rebate is "instant" because you sign it over to the dealer, who in turn takes it off the sales price. However, if you want you can elect to instead have the manufacturer send you a check in the mail and simply pay a higher price for the car. Not sure why someone would care to do this, but it's there.
Concerning the 'employee price' on Chryslers.... the price posted on the cars windshield (not Mulroney label) did most of the posted prices just take off the sticker price minus any applicable rebates?
I'm with KYFDX (post 13132) and Greg (post 13146) there may or at least should be others, just got back from vacation and this is as far as I've read.
I hope you were kidding when you said I think once you get into the $1000 price diff. range.... I've haggled over a hell of a lot less than this. To save $1000 on a car purchase of any kind, BMW or Chevy, I'd give you my first born and my wife. Now don't get me wrong both are great but for this kind of money who needs them, not me !!! I don't know what neighborhood car salespeople live in (now I know why none live near me) but for us low life retired engineers $1000 will go a long way towards paying the mortgage, going on a decent vacation (which as I mentioned I am just returning from, did cost more that $1000 but every little bit helps) eating three meals almost every day of the week, etc. etc.
I always felt but without any real proof that there were big bucks to be made in car sales and that cars are way way overpriced. Now I'm beginning to think and with good reason, I was right all along.
When I grow-up, now I know what career I'm going to pursue. Sure did screw up the first one.
Thanks for leading me in this direction,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
"I always felt but without any real proof that there were big bucks to be made in car sales and that cars are way way overpriced. Now I'm beginning to think and with good reason, I was right all along. "
The average car salesperson makes about $35000-$40000 per year. And that doesn't include the modest amount of turnover (people that just don't make the "cut"), between the quotas, "mini-deals", and the hours.
However, just like any sales job, you can get rich if you're good. I've heard of people making as much as $500,000/year (certainly not the norm!), and there is usually at least one or two salespeople at every major dealership that make 6-figures.
Like any sales job, it is what you make it... it's essentially your own business, but without the overhead. There is money to be made, but there are a whole lot of people that just drop out because they can't hack it....
okay, I admit I was off base with the $1000 remark. It seemed to get a lot of folks wound up ... first born and wife, though? Maybe retelling the story of "The Z4 that got away" had me a little wound up as well.
Rather than point counterpoint I will give you my Uncles view on "what a mans time is worth"
"All you gotta do is take the gross amount you made last year and divide it by the number of hours in a year. gotta subtract the hours you SHOULD be sleeping...so 6(he was a farmer..."man don't need more than that"). That is what you time is worth as far as YOU are concerned, because if it was worth more, you would have MADE more, and besides that's all your getting paid" Now figure how far you have to drive, how much of your time you have to take...and then figure if the extra $50 is worth it! "If it is, then you better work harder...or quit being a farmer.
If you made 100K last year that means every hour is worth $15...just do the math.
As far as what you might OWE a salesperson...use the little red hen as your guide...if he taught you how to equip it so you don't get the wrong vehicle...if he showed you how everything worked on it so you KNEW this was the right vehicle...and if his/her price is honest and without gouge, and if you feel he will help you after the sale...do what's right...and what's right is in the heart of the individual....and if your an individual...what other do...is their business
Honestly, I am not so arrogant as to think that all salespeople make the big bucks. I don't feel their is anything wrong with a person trying to feed their family regardless of the profession they choose and I know you people work some long/crazy hours that most of us readers out here wouldn't even consider putting up with. You mentioned that there are ... usually at least one or two salespeople at every major dealership that make 6-figures ... and of course the $500K a year guy, these are the ones I was referring to (sorry to have generalized like I did).
If you don't mind, can you explain what the "big buck guy" does that is so financially successful that the "little buck guy" doesn't do? Do you just have to stick around long enough to learn their ways? I sure hope you don't tell me they are successful because they are the ones that are the best at taking advantage of the not so informed car buying public. This would go a long way toward explaining why your profession has gotten the bad reputation that it has. I for one can't believe there are just a few "bad apples" that have tarnished your business for many, many years now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In reference to the "big buck guys" and what they do different.....
It isn't usually taking advantage of anyone in how they make their money. It is a combination of many things, including (but not limited to): repeat business (been around for a while; repeat customers have a much higher closing ratio); referrals from previous customers (there's also an art to asking for referrals); being persistant (but not mean or obnoxious) in trying to get deals done; staying in contact with customers better than the next salesperson; networking with social groups (Rotary, Elks, business orgs, etc); approaching large businesses in the area and offering employees a great deal..... and, of course, being the type of person that customers just like being around (an infectious personality). There are a lot of salespeople that make a lot of money without being a stereotypical "salesman."
They are also the guys that ***KNOW*** the product and are excited to tell you about it. They are people that will tell you when you '"are in the ballpark" or not on a used car. They are generally good listeners.
Oh, a couple of other things. They follow-up when you have a concern. They do what they say that they are going to do.
And they make the customer enjoy the experience ...
I was commenting, because a dealers response was asked for. I cannot and will not pass judgement on other dealers and the practices THEY consider correct and proper in a competitive market. I can only tell you what my attitude is. I can tell you what you can expect. If you like it, call me and buy a car/truck/SUV...I will fly you here to pick it up. If you don't like what I say or do, take your business elsewhere. I'm an existentialist...I only know what I can touch, hear, fee and see. So Everyones a buyer until they prove otherwise.
Oh...not in defense...but you asked what YOUR doing wrong...it's not you...it's those darn statistics that are doing your shopping style in...see..74% of the folks buy from the 2nd of two dealerships shopped...almost NEVER the first...
Then of course there is the very old carsalesmans joke: 100% of the customers buy from the last dealer they visit.
You have run into the system stores run amuk. I'm sorry. Wanna visit Minneapolis?
Any dealer can refuse service to any customer. In this case you should request assistance with a lemon law claim the next time you talk to the Chevy branch. They will direct you to a dealer that will get the ball rolling..OR..you can contact a lawyer and have them do it. The computer on the vehicle is supposed to record codes...so if they didn't find any then the lack of power, acceleration...would be standard for a Chevy S-10. I mean, you must have experienced this feeling of gutlessness when you test drove the vehicle, didn't you?
Comments
If they give you a definite out-the door price for a specific car, then why not go to the dealer and see if they will honor that price?
In the Prices Paid forum, I have read of more than one case where the dealer honored a price they had given over the phone.
Of course, if they increase the price even one penny, you should walk out.
Again thanks for everyone's advice. Refi is my next goal when I establish good credit history. All in all, i'm pretty happy with how things turned out. I think they just wanted me to roll over, and take the new rate. Stuck to my guns now they're eating it. I did get 1000 over blue book for my trade in(that was a 2 hour long argument), so that offsets the price I paid for the truck i think. Thanks for all your help guys! Dealership is sending someone out to my house tonight to pick up a check from me because they're saying since it's so close to the deadline for my payment they need to send it in with the contract.
Can this be? bobst and I actually agree on a method for shopping for vehicles???!!!
*LOL*
Ken
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I agree that car buyers should concentrate simply on finding the lowest price a dealer will accept for the vehicle they want and, once the deal is done, enjoy driving it. But I also think cars are a unique purchase, unlike a house or a teevee.
I, too, live in a sellers' housing market. Three reasons people overpay for a house: 1) they expect the house will appreciate or at least hold its value, and 2) they focus on the monthly payment and current interest rates help keep that down, and 3) the tax code encourages home ownership.
In contrast, cars are a terrible investment from any rational viewpoint, and it's easy for the buyer to get upside down, owing more than the thing is worth. Since your car is probably the second most expensive commodity you'll buy, it just makes sense for the buyer to respectfully but firmly press for a straight answer to the question, "What is the lowest price you will sell this vehicle for?" Different dealers will give different answers to different people, so it makes sense to treat a car acquisition as a business deal, not an emotional splurge.
Still too much that's unknown about this scenario that's getting harder and harder to understand for my feeble brain. :confuse: There are some facts here that we just don't know and no one is divulging to make any sort of workable recommendations.
Maybe a new one, same payment but a fresh 36 months. Forget about the buy out.
If they won't do that, for the price you pay for the three pointed star, they should put her into a loaner. Not that that is likely to happen. Maybe they could canibalize a new car on the lot for the part?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
in other words, what the dealer will actually pay for the car if it wasn't a trade in.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
...i'm not a lawyer, but if you read what was posted as clauses in the agreement, I think you can follow. The "seller" will try to get the contract financed thru its normal outlets (finance institutions) it typically uses on a daily basis. If the "seller" is unable to do, they have the right to rescind the agreement (cancel).
In order for them to rescind (cancel), they need to notify you (the buyer) in a 10 day period. Nothing there says the buyer can cancel the agreement. Nor does it say the contract is void if the above actions fall thru and the dealer is unable to secure proper funding thru their channels. In the end, the buyer made an agreement to buy the car at a price. I think the buyer is obligated to come up with the money for the purchase in one way or another.
Anyone with the appropriate background can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the guy was stuck in the purchase agreement.... now, the dealer may be inclined to cancel, unwind the deal and take the car back if they are never going to get paid....? It may be in there best interest to do that. But, there may be some penalties to be paid by the buyer....
But, I think it's absolutely wrong to put blame on the dealer for the credit problems he's having... especially expecting them to make concessions b/c of his lack of credit and not being able to get any sort of loan. Maybe I'm missing something here (or missing a bunch of relevant details/additional contract language)....?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If you read thru the smoke and haze, he ended up being "conditioned" by Fomoco .. that means they would only finance "X" amount of dollars because of his bad history, so the profit was rolled somewhere to keep the deal together .. you're right, there's more to this story then we'll ever know -- typical BS customer.
Terry.
I dunno Terry, the man has a point... at $3k profit it's no wonder they tried to spot-deliver...and it backfired on them. Fair enough, but if they can't get him bought, they can't just sit on their hands... it's up to the dealer to figure this one out, not the customer.
I agree though, the original deal ought to be honored by both sides.. if it can be done.
And it's not the dealer's fault if the customer can't get bought. But there's got to be follow-up.
"Dead people with fake passports" indeed...
Borked: I'd rather pay too much on a Taco than get a deal on an S10... so count your blesssings...
-Mathias
In your case, another dealer might be in order, along with repeated calls (and a case started) with GM customer service. That, and put in a call to a lemon lawyer. With the problems you listed, that thing sounds shot!
Also, it makes it easier to read your posts if you put in some paragraphs.
Good luck, and your post makes Mathias seem prophetic!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
frnkrzzo: But, all in all, they did make the deal happen as written, as I suspected would happen. So I wasn't completely off base. And, yes, I'm pretty sure this all started with this guy saying he bought a new base 4x2 toyota truck. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure its a few pages back there somewhere. So, at the very least, it would now be a "demo" car and they'd more than likely lose more than the $1600 they supposedly paid to make the deal happen.
sbell4: no, the reality is a business is a business. they are going to take the path of greatest profit. The results obviously illustrate this. I'm not sure how this leads to "outsmarting" oneself.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And.. when no paperwork was forthcoming after 27 days, he took the iniative to call the dealer and find out what was up...
Regardless of his poor credit, he did the responsible thing... The dealer screwed up by not getting something done in ten days, and had to eat $1600... That can hardly be his fault. If they didn't want him as a customer, they had the option to let him walk in the first place..
As Mathias said... At least he was smart enough to get a bad deal on a Toyota, instead of an S-10..
And, as I said... "All is well that ends well".
If you don't want BS customers, don't sell them a car..
regards,
kyfdx
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I rest my case. I'm not slamming holdback, but neither is it as sacrosanct as many dealers wish it were. (According to the conversations here over the years)
> we DO pay the invoice price to the manufacturer when the car comes in
Umm, you meant to say "Whomever we're financing our floor with DOES pay the invoice..."
Right?
-Greg
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you seem to have fallen into the qunintessential marketing weasle's trap of thinking that something is "worth" what an individual buyer will pay for it. In reality the important metric for thinking people is ACV.
This sort of parallels the "Capitalism v. Communism" and "Freedom from v. Freedom to" discussions that have cost so many lives over the last few centuries. Fortunately, not many die from poor car buying. (Though, really, you could argue that to the extent higher car pmts displace medical spending there is a direct correlation between "putting them in the weeds" and killing them.)
If you like it and can afford it and feel that the price is fair for what you get, what difference does it make?
Stock market. I'm talking about individual day traders, not pros.
Amateurs, like those people who "know" what their trade is worth.
Do you see how you're arguing both sides of the fence in the same breath? Why is an amateur's "known" price not completely justified by your first statement?
Bottom line is my books are none of your business, anymore than you should have to walk around wearing a sign that says "Last year I made $XXXX.XX"
But... Ummm... Isn't that EXACTLY what a Beacon score is? (Ok, not really, the scores also use timeliness of payments, outstanding debt, etc. It's really much more detailed than the break-out on one car)
-Greg
P.S. My point is that my knowing how much he had invested wasn't going to change what I was charged.
Yeah. Right. Just wait until the unpaid subs start liening. Want that roof you thought you paid for? Well, get ready to pay again. From a guy scummy enough to be credible, I've heard of one builder who closed 3? 5? projects the same day, then took off for the Caribbean with the draws in his pocket. Might well have been the guy I was talking to.
BEWARE HOMEBULDING, IT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS THING YOU WILL EVER DO
Isn't that a bit harsh? Maybe you're reading something in to the guy more than I am........
.
And maybe a typical BS customer should go to the typical BS dealer, like the one I tried to buy an 04 Corolla from last night.......He was asking almost MSRP of a brand new one and wouldn't budge, kept throwing in his dealer fees......sheesh. Needless to say I'm still looking.
In other words, holding out for that last $100.00 won't change how much you are buried in 3-4 yrs.
A trade-in car is only worth what someone, dealer, wholesaler, individual will pay for it. If the number the amateur car buyer has in his head is one that no dealer or wholesaler will touch, is his car really worth that much?
Beacon or Isaac scores don't really reflect income. We have customers making $10,000, 15,000 per MONTH with 600 scores and little old ladies on social security w/ 800 scores.
My point is that there is a certain amount of resentment towards making money. If you knew a dealers profit and bottom line it would cloud your attitude too much.
Same as if you had to wear a sign saying last year I made $100,000 and my net worth is $500,000. How would the clerk at starbucks feel? Would that $4.00 latte suddenly become $20.00?
BTW, I'm sorry your builder sucked, mine was a breeze to deal with.
Probably because I went with a large reputable firm.
Honestly I believe, they knew they could'nt get me financed at 18%, and wrote it up anyways. But messed up on the 10 day part so had to eat it, but normally most people who don't know any better prolly go "oh ok, ill pay" because theyve already had the car for 10 days and itd be a hassle to get the original back. Being that it had been 27 days, the truck they would not take back cause it had about 1700 miles and my car was probably long gone. So they blew it. I think this is a tactic dealerships pull all the time, I felt like i had to take a shower after this whole thing, lol sickening really. However, quite entertaining.
Enjoy the Taco - nice little trucks, and they hold their value very well.
-Jason
It's what most people would do on a refinance, but you can pick any term you want (and they let you).
"Now correct me if im wrong but even if they sold it at invoice they still make profit, with kick backs and stuff coming from toyota."
You're wrong... there are no "kickbacks and stuff" except for holdback, which is not considered -- and isn't usually -- profit.
Here I pause for Craig to gasp.
"Anwyays after financing and everything I'll end up paying $23k for a base model tacoma."
WHAT????
I thought you bought the truck at MSRP -- in your situation, not a bad deal.
Where did the $23k come from?
For what it's worth, a car dealer friend of mine told me about a deal on a used car last year with a customer who had bad credit: ".. I didn't make any money on the car because I had to pay the bank $800 to get the loan... but if she makes all the payments, I'll make $1800 on the back end."
So it is likely they had to kick some money into the deal to make it happen. Count your blessings and let them hatch... or something.
-Mathias
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It ain't cheap being broke.
Your missing the whole point .... our boy Bork was "conditioned" from the bank, that means Fomoco restricted his loan amount .. just like if you wanted a $500,000 home and the bank would only lend you $350,000 ....
In this case, I'll bet the dealer had already received a "full call" for all the money from Ford and washed out the deal and dropped it in the "done" basket ... that said, we don't know if there were any "stips" that were asked for like employment records, bank records for the last 12 months, income, etc - so again, we don't know the whole scenario here .......
27 days tells me it was a bank problem, not a dealer problem ... so what happened was, Bork calls Fomoco and they show no record.? .. but Ford keeps a record of every deal that was approved -or- declined, so they showed no current loan .......... in his last post he says: "they said I was a Ghost", it's old verbiage but I know what they meant ... there's no such thing as a "ghost" nowadays, unless you have 15 passports and you use Joan Rivers plastic surgeon ........ Bud, give me a SS# and a birthdate and I can find Marco Polo's Ex brother-in-law ...... something doesn't sit right here.
Terry
Agreed. It's the $5,000 or so preceding that final $100 that will determine whether the buyer owns the car at the end of three years or still has another 1.5 years of payments.
Sorry for the silly question, but just wanted to know before we go in and buy this weekend.
Thanks for any help............Ken
Ken
BMW3434,
I'm with KYFDX (post 13132) and Greg (post 13146) there may or at least should be others, just got back from vacation and this is as far as I've read.
I hope you were kidding when you said I think once you get into the $1000 price diff. range.... I've haggled over a hell of a lot less than this. To save $1000 on a car purchase of any kind, BMW or Chevy, I'd give you my first born and my wife. Now don't get me wrong both are great but for this kind of money who needs them, not me !!! I don't know what neighborhood car salespeople live in (now I know why none live near me) but for us low life retired engineers $1000 will go a long way towards paying the mortgage, going on a decent vacation (which as I mentioned I am just returning from, did cost more that $1000 but every little bit helps) eating three meals almost every day of the week, etc. etc.
I always felt but without any real proof that there were big bucks to be made in car sales and that cars are way way overpriced. Now I'm beginning to think and with good reason, I was right all along.
When I grow-up, now I know what career I'm going to pursue. Sure did screw up the first one.
Thanks for leading me in this direction,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The average car salesperson makes about $35000-$40000 per year. And that doesn't include the modest amount of turnover (people that just don't make the "cut"), between the quotas, "mini-deals", and the hours.
However, just like any sales job, you can get rich if you're good. I've heard of people making as much as $500,000/year (certainly not the norm!), and there is usually at least one or two salespeople at every major dealership that make 6-figures.
Like any sales job, it is what you make it... it's essentially your own business, but without the overhead. There is money to be made, but there are a whole lot of people that just drop out because they can't hack it....
Maybe retelling the story of "The Z4 that got away" had me a little wound up as well.
"All you gotta do is take the gross amount you made last year and divide it by the number of hours in a year. gotta subtract the hours you SHOULD be sleeping...so 6(he was a farmer..."man don't need more than that"). That is what you time is worth as far as YOU are concerned, because if it was worth more, you would have MADE more, and besides that's all your getting paid" Now figure how far you have to drive, how much of your time you have to take...and then figure if the extra $50 is worth it! "If it is, then you better work harder...or quit being a farmer.
If you made 100K last year that means every hour is worth $15...just do the math.
As far as what you might OWE a salesperson...use the little red hen as your guide...if he taught you how to equip it so you don't get the wrong vehicle...if he showed you how everything worked on it so you KNEW this was the right vehicle...and if his/her price is honest and without gouge, and if you feel he will help you after the sale...do what's right...and what's right is in the heart of the individual....and if your an individual...what other do...is their business
rollie
Honestly, I am not so arrogant as to think that all salespeople make the big bucks. I don't feel their is anything wrong with a person trying to feed their family regardless of the profession they choose and I know you people work some long/crazy hours that most of us readers out here wouldn't even consider putting up with. You mentioned that there are ... usually at least one or two salespeople at every major dealership that make 6-figures ... and of course the $500K a year guy, these are the ones I was referring to (sorry to have generalized like I did).
If you don't mind, can you explain what the "big buck guy" does that is so financially successful that the "little buck guy" doesn't do? Do you just have to stick around long enough to learn their ways? I sure hope you don't tell me they are successful because they are the ones that are the best at taking advantage of the not so informed car buying public. This would go a long way toward explaining why your profession has gotten the bad reputation that it has. I for one can't believe there are just a few "bad apples" that have tarnished your business for many, many years now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It isn't usually taking advantage of anyone in how they make their money. It is a combination of many things, including (but not limited to): repeat business (been around for a while; repeat customers have a much higher closing ratio); referrals from previous customers (there's also an art to asking for referrals); being persistant (but not mean or obnoxious) in trying to get deals done; staying in contact with customers better than the next salesperson; networking with social groups (Rotary, Elks, business orgs, etc); approaching large businesses in the area and offering employees a great deal..... and, of course, being the type of person that customers just like being around (an infectious personality). There are a lot of salespeople that make a lot of money without being a stereotypical "salesman."
They are also the guys that ***KNOW*** the product and are excited to tell you about it. They are people that will tell you when you '"are in the ballpark" or not on a used car. They are generally good listeners.
Oh, a couple of other things. They follow-up when you have a concern. They do what they say that they are going to do.
And they make the customer enjoy the experience ...
bdr127,
Thanks for the input. It's nice to know that hard work pays off in your business too.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
So Everyones a buyer until they prove otherwise.
Oh...not in defense...but you asked what YOUR doing wrong...it's not you...it's those darn statistics that are doing your shopping style in...see..74% of the folks buy from the 2nd of two dealerships shopped...almost NEVER the first...
Then of course there is the very old carsalesmans joke: 100% of the customers buy from the last dealer they visit.
You have run into the system stores run amuk. I'm sorry. Wanna visit Minneapolis?