Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

boomchek

Haha that's so true. I get many customers coming in and looking at Odysseys or Pilots because they need seating for 7 or 8 because once a year their in laws visit etc. I tell them to buy a CRV save $10k doing it, and rent your relatives a car for the week they're visiting ($200 cost).

"Oh yeah we didn't think of it this way!"

PS: Rafal where in Poland are you? I'm in Vancouver but I was born in Poland.

Cheers

Maciej

jsylvester

Better idea is to be the contrarian. Prices on used SUV's and larger vehicles are CHEAP right now. To me, an extra $240 a year for gasoline vs. paying the same amount to purchase some cramped crackerbox is a no-brainer. Of course, if gas is over $3 this time next year and my wife gets a new vehicle, I might be driving my wife's deathtrap Corolla to the office, and the Grand Marquis any other time.

That being said, my wife wants a new car next year - visions of some gas hog SUV filled my head. Know what she loves?

A Pontiac Aztek! That should be cheap to find used.

dino001

I'm from Tczew (35 km S Gdansk). Good to meet fellow country man.

Rafal

jipster

I would suggest renting a minivan or large SUV. That way the host and their in-laws can travel together in the same vehicle.

krs1

I have heard this phrase often "At Dealer Cost"

exactly what does this mean?

stickguy

whatever you (or more appropriately, the dealer) wants it to mean!

But, normally that means invoice (like you can find on Edmunds), but there are often some additional charges that the dealer's invoice will show that Edmunds won't (TDA advertising fee, stuff like that).

nwalbert

I have an offer from a dealer that I like, but I feel like I need just a little more to make it fit. I returned his offer signed with the Destination charge ($400) crossed out via fax with a note saying everything looks good. Think the dealer will accept this on a signed order for an 05?

Scott

mirth

...no. Destination charge is pretty much one of those charges that everybody has to pay. You would have been better offer lowering your offer on the car - he's just going to reject this is my guess.

bdr127

Yeah, it's kind of like ordering something online or off of QVC or something when they say "$10 for S&H"..... Same thing. The manufacturer (note that this is NOT a dealer charge) can't get out of not paying the shipping/transport company who is transporting the car.

boomchek

A customer on a test drive rolled our Odyssey demo into 6 foot deep ditch today.

One of our sales guys was on the test drive with the family (couple and two kids). The wife was driving and was hit by a F150 as she was making a right turn, which in turn pushed the Odyssey into a ditch. The Odyssey didn't roll over but it landed with the passenger side on the ditch floor.

To make a long story short everyone was ok, no injuries whatsoever and luckily the couple brought their child seat and a booster seat for both kids.

Too many times we are in a rush to test drive a car or customers are in a rush, and either want to hold their kids in their lap or just buckle them up with the regular seat belts which usually ends up rubbing on the kids necks, a potentially deadly situation. I've seen some parents trying to hold their kids on their lap which is a no no as well.

In an accident like this nobody got hurt because everyone was buckled up properly, and it was a safe minivan but things could have been much worse had the kids not been in their child seats etc.

So take your time cause 5 minutes of installing a child seat can avoid some potentially deadly situations and costly lawsuits as well.

Stay safe.

boomchek

I was born in poland, lived in Piotrkow Trybunalski. We left in 1986 lived in Rome for two years, and then came to Vancouver in 1988.

nortsr1

Good post, boomcheck.

manamal

Good post. And salespeople, remeber, the few minutes it takes for me to buckle in the car seat are important. I had one salesperson tell me that the time to put in the seat was not nessisary. I did not test drive the car, and bought something else.

manamal

I was having a discussion with a collegue. It boiled down to does a Repo show up on the carfax? and if so, what impact does it have on the value?

bdr127

I was having a discussion with a collegue. It boiled down to does a Repo show up on the carfax? and if so, what impact does it have on the value?

No and No... it does not show up on CarFax and there is absolutely no detriment to a car when it has been repo-d. The CarFax will just show an owner and registration. A repo is just a car that someone couldn't pay for.... not that anything was wrong with the car.

bdr127

Good post. And salespeople, remeber, the few minutes it takes for me to buckle in the car seat are important. I had one salesperson tell me that the time to put in the seat was not nessisary. I did not test drive the car, and bought something else.

Also note that salespeople themselves should generally avoid putting the carseats in the car. In case there is an accident and something happens to the kid, the last thing you want is the parents coming after you and your dealership. Definitely take the time to have the carseats, but let the parents put them in and buckle them up.

jipster

hey boom boom...any airbags deploy from either the impact of the F150 or the van falling on its side?

isellhondas

Better yet, get a babysitter if you can!

I keep a very tight leash on my customers when they test drive cars. I've had a few people do some very dumb things. I once made a guy pull over and I drove the car back myself.

stever

If someone can't make their car payments, they likely aren't doing any preventative or regular maintenance to their car either. That's one reason why many people won't pay full boat for a repo.

Some repo owners know they are going to lose their car, so they drive them like rentals. Or they'll intentionally trash it. Sometimes they are towed away incorrectly. Maybe the original keys are missing. Service records may be non-existent.

The ones I used to look at in the repo section at my credit union parking lot were always marked down below market. Some were probably great deals.

Steve, Host

boomchek

No actually the airbags did not go off. The Odyssey was hit on the driver's side front fender part, and it wasn't a very hard hit. The driver's door and the rest of the side was undamaged. The hit was more of a bump, and the reason the Odyssey ended up in the ditch was because of the test driver's reaction as she steered it in there.

The Odyssey drove into the V shaped ditch on a steep angle and so that's why at the bottom it ended up laying on it's passenger side.

There was no hard impacts to make the airbags go off either from the front or the sides.

I took cell phone pictures but can't email them to my pc otherwise I would have shown them

jjbimmer

I bought out my leased Honda Accord last week. It's a 2002 Accord LX Coupe and I had been the only-ever owner (picked it up with 31 km's on it). Since the car has low mileage and is in excellent shape, buying out the lease and then reselling it made perfect sense to me. I even had a buyer lined up.

In acquiring the used-car-sale package (required in Ontario to sell a used car), I found that somebody who I had never heard of had a lien against my VIN#. Further investigation with the help of Honda Canada revealed that somehow, somebody else had leased a car with exactly the same VIN# (hence the lien). This other party was contacted and asked to verify their VIN aginst their ownership (to rule out a data entry error) - they have verified that the VIN on the vehicle itself matches the VIN on my vehicle.

My guess at this point is that the other car was illegally resold (possibly stolen or previously written off).

It would seem that Honda Canada had sold me my vehicle without first doing a lien check to ensure that the car was actually sellable. At the very least, I did not get full disclosure (but they assure me they didn't know). I cannot resell the vehicle until they figure out this mess - so how could Honda have sold me that vehicle under the same conditions? It seems that if I were a dealer, I could just sell the vehicle without any problems (lien or not)!! This makes no sense to me. Why/how can dealers get away with this?

Any advice on how to proceed? Do I have any legal case against Honda? This is in Toronto, Ontario.

Thx,
-jj

rroyce10

.... **Do I have any legal case against Honda? This is in Toronto, Ontario .......**

I'm not from Canada so I can only give you the American version ........ sometimes (rarely) a Vin# is listed incorrectly from a dealer, lender or even the the title bureau .... when it catches up, the history is tracked to the car itself - they check the vin#'s on the vehicle ..... if you have the car, the title, and you have the proper Vin# then that should end the conversation .... all Honda has to do is send a field supervisor out and let him eyeball it .......

As far as any recourse ...? .. I can't speak for Canada, but here in the states this would take about 30 minutes and that would close the issue .. right now the only thing you have is "inconvenience" .....

Terry.

jjbimmer

Thanks for the advice. I not only have "inconvenience" but will be out cash in interest payments (paying for a car I don't need and can't use) because my buyer is ready to walk.

Honda Canada has asked the other party to bring their vehicle in for inspection. This was a week ago and nothing has happened. But why would it? This person has no incentive to bring their car in (not to mention that they appear to live about 75 miles from the dealership!).

I have repeatedly asked Honda to send someone out there instead, but they refuse. HONDA CAN'T MAKE ANY MONEY FROM IT, so would they bother to solve this problem quickly? There is nothing in it for them.

-jj

boomchek

this is a bit complicated so I hope you can follow me:

Possibility number 1: The other party doesn't want to come out because they know they have a bogus VIN listed in their paperwork on their Accord.

Possibility number 2: The other way I can think that this could have happened is: Honda dealer sold or leased your car before you bought it. The dealer registered that car with Honda Canada under that person's name. Could have happened at the end of the month in order to secure the rates and or any incentives that may have been discontinued the next month.

Example: customer does a deal on a car at month's end; Honda Canada Finance or a leasing company approves them; customer is not able to take delivery before month's end, but dealer registers the car with Honda as sold already in order to secure low interest rates, cashbacks, etc that may be discontinued the next month, counting on the customer to pick up the car during the first few days of next month.

Then for whatever reason that customer fails to pick up the car or cancels the deal, but the car is already reported SOLD in that customer's name or the leasing company (if it was a 3rd party lease) is not informed of the cancelled deal and so the lien remains. Then you come in and the dealer leases that car to you, but it would have to be a lease through a different party than your lease because if both leases would be through Honda Canada Finance then the mistake would have been caught.

Summary: -your Accord was leased to someone
-that someone cancels the deal
-but because the car was reported sold to Honda Canada, or not
reported canceled to the leasing company the lien remains
-you come in and lease that same car

And the reason that other mystery person is not saying anything is because maybe he or she doesn't even have an Accord, but doesn't want to get into hot water over the deal he cancelled four years back. :confuse:

This could have happened as an honest mistake or an oversight. The other reason that a lien check wasn't done when you bought out the car was probably because nobody expected this sort of thing to occur, especially if you were the original owner.

That's just my unofficial theory, and it sounds complicated and maybe even far fetched but I can't think of another possibility.

Now if you bought out the lease go talk to your dealership and to whoever you bought the car out from (lease guy, sales guy etc), and see if they can do some digging as to whether the car was sold and cancelled before you bought it.

steine13

AFAIK, VIN's are asigned when a car is built. By that I mean that I've always heard people talk about it that way, but I haven't seen it done personally. But of course it makes sense; a VIN is the fingerprint of your car, and it's fairly serious legal business.

Dealers don't assign them, the manufacturer does. And there are super-dooper computer programs available that spit out one number at a time, and not the same number twice.

My guess is it's something like boomchek says; there's only one car and it's bounced through the computer twice with a lien reported -- or it's fraud on an individual's part, and that you have a legit car. The other guy with the same VIN may be an innocent bystander or a crook, but I bet he didn't buy his car that way from a Honda dealer's lot.

If there IS another car.

I agree that Honda should help you a little more agressively than they're doing now.

Plus, it IS possible that they assigned the same VIN twice, but I'd have to see it to believe it.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out, please.
-Mathias

rroyce10

....... Some show, most don't .. but repo's "can" and do show up, it all depends if it was reported to the city/police/county by the Repo Man .....

Actually I've seen quite a few ...... as far as the value, it depends on the vehicle and the *condition* ....... contrary to some "urban legends" there is alot of nice clean repo's that hit the streets, I bought a 04 Porsche 911 Carrera with 4,100 miles from a lender in July .. some people would rather take care of their vehicles than pay their Visa card ..l.o.l....

Terry.

jjbimmer

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm still wondering how I would have been able to buy out the lease to begin with. Granted, a "lazy" dealership may not perform all of the due diligence of a history check, but shouldn't it be illegal to sell a car (or anything for that matter) with a lien against it? After all, doesn't a lien mean that there is a third party with a financial stake in the item-for-sale?

The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

1. The laws here (Ontario Canada) are such that nobody cares whether you sell property with a lien on it. (And remember I didn't get disclosure before closing the deal so it's not like I knew about what I was getting into).

2. It is against the law but somebody who knew what they were doing managed to circumvent the law.

I hope to have something to report over the next few days...
-jj

mikefm58

" I'm still wondering how I would have been able to buy out the lease to begin with. Granted, a "lazy" dealership may not perform all of the due diligence of a history check, but shouldn't it be illegal to sell a car (or anything for that matter) with a lien against it? After all, doesn't a lien mean that there is a third party with a financial stake in the item-for-sale? "

That's what I was just thinking. I would expect the problems you are now having should have happenned to Honda Canada and not you. Unless somehow they don't have to get that "used car package" you mentioned. I smell something fishy here. It may be worth your while to drive to the other person with the duplicate VIN and check it out for yourself.

jjbimmer

I see what you're saying boomchek and it got me thinking. The other lien is through a local leasing company affiliated with a Honda dealership. My own lease was through Honda Canada Financial. They are two different leasing companies, so what you describe is a possibility.

When I first leased the car, they had to do a "locate" on it... more fuel to your theory.

I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

-jj

jjbimmer

I asked my Honda rep just that and their response was that dealerships don't have to get a "used car package". How fair is that?

I suppose I could register myself as a used-car dealer and get rid of this thing today. ;-)

-jj

jac5

I just filed personal bankruptcy (loss job). what our my options regarding purchasing a car from a dealer in the near future?any advise welcomed .thx

jb_turner

0 chance unless you pay cash.

rroyce10

....... It's not the bankruptcy .. it's when it finally gets charged-off .... after that, it will depend on how much C-A-S-H you have to put down and what sub-prime lender will handle the deal .....

Terry.

mldj98

Was wondering if anyone could help me out....I have heard there are additional charges that are included in the invoice/msrp charges that only apply in the southeast toyota region....like additional freight charges.....and possible administrative charges....if this is true....how much is it? Is it a flat rate charge for each vehicle? Or does it matter what type of vehicle...i.e. Truck....Car...
Thanks in advance....

mirth

...amounts, but yes, Southeastern Toyota dealers are all part of some distribution system that adds $$$'s to the invoice.

mldj98

That's what I understand as well...that why I was wondering if anybody can provide those figures....perhaps a dealer rep on this forum that sells toyota......it would help a bunch...thanks

bdr127

You might be able to get financed by a subprime lender, but they'll no doubt require cash down (usually at least $2000), and a 18% interest rate. To get to an affordable payment that they'd also approve, it probably won't be a very expensive car, but a car nonetheless. They're also more likely to finance you on a new car than a used one because there's typically less risk involved and there are full warranties.

toyo_van_owner

I am not a car dealer, but here's what I was told when I was shopping for a Toyota van. A Durham dealer showed me his invoice statement as being $900+ over Edmunds on the '05 Sienna with package #6. That dealer has a less than stellar reputation here, so who knows.

We bought an '06 Sienna from a dealer across town instead, and were treated very well. I just compared it to what I could get for the money locally on other vans with the specific options that my family needed/wanted. It was still the best deal verses what the local Honda dealer was willing to do and also verses an 05 Sienna with side curtain airbags with all the incentives. Toyota was very willing to deal, even on '06.

mldj98

Thanks for the info....
I believe there is a car salesmen here that sells toyota's....I have read some of his posts and I was hoping that they could provide some valuable input....
I know for sure toyota southeast adds specific charges to their invoices but what exactly they are and how much is the key question....
O' where, O' where could the toyota sales rep be....O' where, O' where can they be?
Thanks to all for the recent responses....

bretfraz

The topic of Southeastern Toyota Dealers Assn has been discussed several times in this thread and in Smart Shopper. There may even be a specific thread about them. The search function will turn up some good info about them.

jac5

thanks to everyone for your advice.

sbell4

freight in the Southeast and Gulf States is $50 addtional.

Southeast Toyota does have an admin fee added to every vehicle that is charged to the dealer from the distributor. If you use $585 as that fee you will be fine.

example for a Tundra:
freight = 595
admin = 585

There is not any other regional advertising fees added to the invoice so at first glance it appears you are paying roughly $600 more for the honor of buying a vehicle in the southeast. You really would not, the difference between the southeast and the rest of the country is that the additional charges to the invoice are uniform across the region instead of divided up in local dealer groups.

The Southeast Toyota admin fee is an admiistrative charge paaid by the dealer to Southeast Toyota and is used for regional dealer support programs. The dealer does not make any profit on the charge.

cassiesdad

"I just filed personal bankruptcy (loss job). what our my options regarding purchasing a car from a dealer in the near future?any advise welcomed .thx"

Depends on the type of bankruptcy, Ch 7 or Ch.13. With a Ch 7, oddly enough, some lenders are more willing to lend you money, albeit for a premium interest rate. Why? Because you no longer have any debts (they've been discharged) therefore if you have a job your debt to income ratio is pretty goog and you are in better shape than 80% of borrowers at the time of discharge. Second, you cannot declare BR again for I think 7 years, so they don't have to worry about being screwed in BR. Ch 13 will really depend on what kind of income you got left over after paying the plan, but the same analysis applied as far as not being able to declare BR for 7 years. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, BR laws change in about two weeks I think and it makes it far more difficult to declare Ch 7.

dino001

How nice. So in great scheme of a ripoff, Toyota got even more inventive than I thought before. So: we have a potential of seeing $19K ad and when it comes to paying it becomes about $23K: $19K+destination+SET+junk Toyo package+dealer's fee+tax+tag - You do the math. Talking honest advertising... :mad:

Now I know why people hate Toyota dealers. Under this condition it is inevitable to get upset, since customer has some expectations set by outside info, like Edmunds telling him/her "invoice it this much", but real one is that much. A feel for being ripped off is unavoidable.

Who is interested in this system, besides those middle man execs?

Thanks God I'm not into Toyotas anyway...

sbell4

...........no good deed goes unpunished.

All I will say is that your assumptions are not correct.
.

bobst

"customer has some expectations"

Any time you expect something out of life, you will often be disappointed.

Read 'The Snow Leopard". It is book about a guy going to Tibet to talk with a certain Lama at the Crystal Monastery.

He asked a friend what he should expect to learn. His friend said, "Expect nothing". Best advice I ever heard. Even better than the wonderful advice I give in this DG.

dino001

Well, I suspect it's true - I was oversymplifying for sake of the argument. It is well-known fact that purchasing experience satisfaction of Toyotas (as well as Hondas and Nissans) are consistently at the bottom in almost any surveys I have seen, despite often superior nature of the product itself.

It just looks that those guys have a buying/selling system that puts almost inevitable escalating hostility between customers and salesmen. Not everywhere, not everybody, but it looks quite consistent both in surveys and anecdotal testminonies. "Surprise" factor on the fees and extra charges is definitely a contributing factor (probably not the only one).

michaellno

Funny .. when I met my wife, one of her favorite sayings was (and still is):

Expect nothing, and you won't be disappointed

Served her well in her first marriage! :P

dino001

"Expect nothing" sounds like a great punchline, but it has no relevance here. A reasonable and well informed person gathers some info, looks some ads, seems screaming "YOU PAY XXXX", makes some reasonable correction for usal BS factor, and still lands thousands off the actual amount. Even most understanding one may than lose patience and start subscribing to those blanket statements like "all dealers are crooks", etc.

Sure, expect nothing and get exactly that much, huh?

bobst

"expect nothing and get exactly that much" That's exactly right!

It is always nice when a newbie learns something from my sage advice.

Who next?