Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

1242527293081

Comments

  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    will actually do much. If it is indeed illegal where you live then contacting the appropriate authorities is what needs to be done. The Consumer Affairs (or similar) department of your state government should have the hammer to actually do something.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    The best way to punish this activity is to not buy from them. I don't care how good your deal may be, do not eventually buy from them. Tell everyone you know not to buy from them as well. As strange as it may sound, I think bait and switch is legal in the car sales business.
  • fmofmo Member Posts: 2
    that the BBB is not an enforcement agency, simply a reference point to reflect the amount and nature of complaints against a business. You should contact your state's Attorney General office. They have the teeth to take a big bite from the dealer's [non-permissible content removed]. I can assure you that contact to the dealer by the AG is no laughing matter.

    This technique you speak of is common here in Ohio but I have seen first hand the effect a letter or phone call from the AG can have on a dealer principal.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I think it's cool that you can document the bait and switch. It's that kind of info that gives the AG something to sink his teeth into.

    Just for grins, think about sending a copy of your letter to the local dealer's association, the local newspaper, and even the offending dealership.

    Also, why not post the dealership name here?
  • genegoddessgenegoddess Member Posts: 9
    (cough) Mike Calvert Toyota (cough)

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the name (the host can delete my post if he/she wants).
  • genegoddessgenegoddess Member Posts: 9
    The Houston BBB, the FTC, and the Texas Attorney General. I've only been able to physically document that the car is still for sale. I've only been told it was in stock once (I visited 15min later and it was sold "yesterday"). BUT, about twice a week, I visit several online sites (including their own) and print out the ads. I have several. They didn't have the vehicle for sale in the newspaper this weekend (I looked), but it is STILL on their website...

    Grr!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    (I'm originally South of Houston), is that they belong to a dealer group that is absolutely HUGE. I'm not defending them, but consider the possibility that they may be advertising for more than one store and several somewhat honest possibilities exist.
  • genegoddessgenegoddess Member Posts: 9
    I know how huge this dealer is, and I know that at least one of their salestaff is a consummate professional (someone I dealt with when I was considering a RAV4). But all of the ads specifically list the car as being at MCT. Plus, it is listed on their personal website (mct.com). AND, when I called, they always either say "It's here" or "WE just sold it."

    Believe me, I wish that it was a simple error, but I have a hard time believing it. I guess that it's possible that they are three weeks behind in updating their personal website and the two classified ads (being such a large dealership), but since the car's "sold status" has been called to their attention several times, I'm just a bit skeptical...

    It's almost depressing...
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    town after tarring and feathering. I have no sympathy or respect for car dealers that perpetuate the negative side of the car business.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Have you contacted the Internet sales manager at the dealership? Lots of dealerships use outside sources to update their inventory online and some of these outfits are not too swift to begin with. I spend lots of time calling these outfits for my dealership as they will screw up and keep putting cars that have been sold back on the website, even after I've given them the new price list and updated inventory. So lighten up (no pun intended)!
                     : )
                     Mackabee
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    "Well, heck! We can't fix or shut down the website simply because it's wrong. Shucks, we make money with that website! Golly, seems like the wronger it is, the more money it makes us. Get real!"
  • jpvwaudijpvwaudi Member Posts: 139
    it depends on where the advertising people are pulling the inventory from; most larger dealers have companies that handle these kind of things. Back down vulchers; not everything is intentional. Read the fine print at the bottom:

    NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    If the website was all there was to this I'd say,"so what." But it appears that the poster has been told verbally that the car is there or that it has just been sold. If that's the case, then it's just wrong.
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    Did a website say this...."Curious, I called and they said "Oh, sure, it's here! Come on by!" ?

    Didn't think so. Landru is right. Besides, goddess says that they have been told at the dealership about the ads still running and the dealer saying that the car is sold. I would expect more professionalism from such a "huge" dealer to follow up and make sure that any misleading ads were removed from print and the website.

    Plus it sounds like anyone at the dealership would know about "this" car. Not sure what Mustang GT's are going for, but I am sure if landru's lot had one advertised for $5000 below the normal price, he and every other salesman at his dealership would know about it.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Well, you know at the dry cleaners it says "Not resposible for goods left over 30 days." Guess what? They ARE responsible and the sign means nothing.

    Now I would assume that both federal and state and/or provoncoal governments would have their own limitations as to what an error or omission might be and how much a dealer is or isn't responsible for.

    That said, the exampple here seems pretty blatant.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fmofmo Member Posts: 2
    "I would expect more professionalism from such a "huge" dealer "

    It's the huge places that have more BS because the nut they have to crack every month is so huge. They'll just about say and do anything. I've worked for both big and small, made the same amount of money at both, but enjoyed the small dealer atmosphere and didn't miss the back stabbing and political tensions of the big place.
  • genegoddessgenegoddess Member Posts: 9
    Well, I took the suggestion of contacting the internet sales manager: one email and two phone messages (no one ever answered the phone). Two days later (yesterday), the ad for the phantom car was suddenly gone from their website! Of course, since I got a confirmation letter from the BBB on Monday, saying that they were contacting the company, someone probably lit a fire under someone's tushy. I wonder what will happen when they get the letter from the FTC and state attorney general... :)

    Oh, an no-one ever answered my email or my two phone messages... What a shock!
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    That's too bad. Unfortunately some dealerships still see their internet departments as a "nuisance" and not a source of additional sales. Here in my area there 7 Toyota dealers within a 30 minute drive of each other, some within a 10 minute drive of each other. What some of my customer's have told me it's usually between me and one of my competitor's which is the furthest away, that it comes down to. I know the girl that run's that internet department and she is very good. The other stores net departments are usually asleep at the wheel (pun intended) which is better for us. Their way of doing business is to tell the customer to come on down! I've found out that being upfront about price, available financing and ball park figures which are somewhat close works best for me.
                               : )
                                Mackabee
  • jachampjachamp Member Posts: 3
  • genegoddessgenegoddess Member Posts: 9
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Maybe Calvert will now have enough to do dealing with the mail that they can't cook up another bait and switch.

    "Gee, Gene, we can't take your call now. The mail has really picked up down here at Mike Calvert Toyota."
  • txallstar210txallstar210 Member Posts: 12
    is it refundable? my gf bought a car on monday night. i finally looked at her contract today and some how, as always by the dealer, she was dooped and signed the purchase aggreement on the car with the extended warranty she did not want. she got a %4.0 interest on her car. then she goes into the f&i office to close the deal, well the f&i guy beats her 1st rate at %3.65. she is telling me this and also saying her monthly payments still ended up the same, i told that cant be if he beat the rate something is wrong. so i looked at the contract and sure enough slapped with a $1,995 extended warranty charge and then i look at her all her papers and she has the agreement she signed for her warranty also. i asked if she knew what she signed and said no. i asked if she remembers being offered or explained the warranty and she says no. what i think happened was as she is signing papers the guy says and here is your extended warranty sign here and boom she does it, not really paying attention. Bottom line is can she get out of this and/or will it be difficult also? much needed help.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    On $30,000 financed over 60 months, changing the rate from 4.00% to 3.65% only changes the monthly payment by about $5 per month or $300 over the 5 years. How could they add $1995 and still end up at the same payment?
  • txallstar210txallstar210 Member Posts: 12
    wait i know, we got screwed. i figured it out. when the salesman came in and quoted the payments w/the rate they had already figured the warranty in, banking on the fact the she wouldnt notice in the finance office because he beat the rate and her payments were in the range the saleman gave her. damn, have to be one step ahead of the game. because the car is 20,878 w/o the warranty. that is total drive out price. with the warranty it is 22,873. the payments at 4.0 for 20,878 would have been around 385 now its a finance for 22,873 at 3.65 for 60 and the payments are 418. damn. so is there anyway to get out of the extended warranty.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    We're just talking about arithmetic.

    $20,800 over 60 months at 4.00% is $383 per month.

    $22,795 over 60 months at 3.65% is $416 per month.

    $22,795 over 60 months at 4.00% is $419 per month.

    On that amount of money the change in interest rate lowers the payment by only about $3 per month. There is no way that $1995 could be added and keep the payment the same. It looks like that warranty was in there right from the start.

    If you keep reading the warranty documents, I'm sure there will be instructions on how to cancel it. Of course, any refund will go to the bank (since they're the ones that have paid for it, so far) and your loan will be a little shorter.
  • txallstar210txallstar210 Member Posts: 12
    i just figured it out also...always have to ahead be of the game and that is some shady stuff.
  • txallstar210txallstar210 Member Posts: 12
    it makes it that much harder to figure out a deal because when they come back with a rate and your monthly payment you dont know if that is with the any warranty, etc before you head into the f&i office. because in the long run your payment maybe lower. should have probably asked for a completely breakdown or worksheet or just asked if that was with any warranty, that was new one for me and her. just a quick question here, can you end up maybe trying to refinance later because the loan is shorter or less and get try to get the 4.00 or 4.15 rate thus making the payments what they should have been? or it will not make a difference.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    You say your GF was "dooped"...but in the same post you also say she didn't know what she signed.

    That's just as much part of the problem.

    "it makes it that much harder to figure out a deal because when they come back with a rate and your monthly payment you dont know if that is with the any warranty, etc before you head into the f&i office"

    No, Its not hard at all. You already discussed price and settled on a number. You know how much you are going to finance before heading into the F&I office. Once you are there READ the documents before you sign to ensure that the numbers you agreed upon earlier are the same numbers in print.
  • txallstar210txallstar210 Member Posts: 12
    yeah i mean its a mistake should have read everything carefully. what i meant by being hard is that they are quoted a monthly payment which you think you cant afford but in reality you can because it will be much cheaper. so you might walk out on the deal before ever going into the finance office knowing your monthly ayments were going to be what you could afford. i guess just go ahead and go through all the charade and then walk out of the office in the end. well it got taken care off. so i guess thats what matters. just another lesson in car buying.
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi txallstar210. I am sorry to hear about your girlfriend's terrible experience. Most extended warranty contracts allow policy holders to cancel and receive a full refund within the first several days. You or your girlfriend should contact the warranty company directly as soon as possible to see what your options are. If you act quickly, there is a good chance that she will get all of her money back. As landru2 said earlier, since you are financing this vehicle, your refund may go to the bank that you are financing through and be used to reduce the amount that you still owe on it. Good luck.

    Car_man
    Host
    Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    sometimes i don't log in, and just browse various discussions. when i logged in and went back to this one, the following post was the first one.
    only posting part of it(excluding the poster),
    i think they have been banned.

    I often wondered just how much my customers knew about the inside tricks in the car business. There were always a few that had heard of certain tricks, but consumers are taken advantage of every day and I know some things that may save your hide. And your wallet. I now work in consumer fraud and consumer law and one of my favorites was the "leg" (short for legroom) built into a payment. This only applies if you're financing at the dealer. Let's say the car your negotiating on is $15,000. Just using round numbers, a payment (with money and interest only) is $300. The salesman shows you $400. You go back and forth and "close" on $360. When you go into the finance office, the F&I guy has at least $2700-2800 worth of warranties, credit life, disability, mop and glow, fabric sealant, etc to include in the payment. Let's say he does $3500 worth of aftermarket stuff - he can offer you all this protection for only $20 month and your payment is $380. The catch is, you haven't been bumped $20, you've been bumped $80! It happens more than you can imagine.

    Can you tell I didn't enjoy a large part of the car business?
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Excellent post, explorerx4. This is exactly why consumers should not shop payments when they are in the market for a new or used vehicle. Instead they should get pre-approved for a loan on their own for the car or truck that they are interested in. Once they have been pre-approved, they should head out to dealers and negotiate an attractive selling price price. By shopping this way dealers can not pack all sorts of unwanted items into their monthly payment. As an added bonus, they already know what sort of interest rate they can qualify for and actually may motivate the dealer that they are working with to beat the rate that they already have.

    Car_man
    Host
    Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
  • prodigalsunprodigalsun Member Posts: 213
    and I would add, that once you have your pre-approval, you should engage the dealer to beat it, and if they can beat that rate and payment, more power to them if they can stick stuff in there that won't raise your monthly but gives them more profit.

    When I bought my Maxima just recently, I got pre-approved at 4.99 from my CU, went in, told them twice when asked to fill out a credit app that we would do that if the price on the car was acceptable. Once we reached agreement, I told them that they could only run my credit app if they could be fairly sure they could beat it. I told the F&I guy my salary, debt level, and My FICO (got that off Myfico.com). Based on that, he said he thought he could beat it. So I then gave him my SSN, and they gave me 4.75.

    Do your research, make your game plan, and you'll come out alright.
  • dbgindydbgindy Member Posts: 351
    When I purchased in April the dealership was able to beat my pre-approved CU rate by a .25 point. If the dealership made money off of it that in my mind would be a true win-win situation.

    Duncan
  • raybearraybear Member Posts: 1,795
    It isn't hard to beat a rate these days, we get buy rates from banks that are willing to pay a finder's fee for the loan, as long as the customer has good credit. A hundred bucks is better than nothing so it pays to beat the rate.
  • anthonysbmwanthonysbmw Member Posts: 13
    My wife and I purchased a new Ford Expedition a few years ago from a local dealer in Northern VA. The price negotiation was a no brainer (my company has a deal with Ford for Pricing). When we sat with the F&I guy he asked if we wanted the usual list of paint sealants (wax), interior sealants, extended warranty, life insurance, etc. I told him no to everything. We were financing through Ford Motor Credit (0.9%, pretty sweet rate). Before we were to sign the documents, I noticed the monthly payments were off $8. I asked the F&I guy why. He stated that it was for the life insurance for me. I reminded him I declined the insurance. His answer "Oh, I thought you didn't want it for you wife". A few suggestions to avoid these / catch them at their own game:
    1. Read Read Read everything
    2. Read it again
    3. Buy and inexpensive calculator that calculates monthly payments based on interest rates, length of financing and amount financed (and learn how to use it.) My wife laughed at the F&I guys face when I pulled my finance calculator out of my pocket.
    4. Read again (ask questions)
    5. Don't forget, the selling is not over until you are in the car and on your way home.

    Hope this helps someone
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    one of my personal policies is this:

    i will stop selling when my customer stops buying.

    as long as you know this about your dealer, everyone can enjoy themselves.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Some dealers will try to cheat us every chance they get, so we buyers have to be on our toes until we drive away in our new car.

    For example, when we bought our 1999 Accord, we made it very clear in writing that we wanted two additional keys for the car.

    They accepted our OTD offer, but just before we were to sign the bill of sale they said those keys would only be for the doors, which meant the keys would not have the computer chip set so they could be used to start the car. We are glad we were alert to catch this subtle meaning of their comment.

    Of course this was unacceptable, so we got up to leave. They quickly changed their mind and agreed to give us the keys we wanted. I guess the thought of not getting our money made them panic. We then gave them a check and drove the new car home.

    On the CSI survey I gave them the lowest possible marks for honesty and several other categories.

    When we bought a new car last October, I made sure that I wrote down that we wanted two extra keys that could be used to start the car. That car buying experience was very enjoyable and I gave them the highest possible CSI scores.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    That dealer sounds very bad, but that is no reason to avoid them in the future. If they have a car you want, then offer them an OTD price you are willing to pay. If they don't say Yes within a couple minutes, then you can assume the answer is No and you can leave.

    However, if they say Yes, then you have the car you want at a price you find acceptable. What more can you ask for?

    Hey, I have actually been to Midland. I played there in a junior golf tournament in 1963 and Byron Nelson himself gave us a clinic.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    "That dealer sounds very bad, but that is no reason to avoid them in the future."

    I'd like to say your last post was specious at best...but you insisted you would walk out on a deal over an additional dollar.

    I dont know anyone who would make a purchase from ANY business that treated them poorly, lied too them, or whatever.

    Why suggest rewarding a business with a purchase after being treated like preacher was???
     
    I guess with you its "all about the Benjamins".
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    While we're on the subject of the old bait and switch, I thought that some of you might be interested in the following article that I read earlier this month:

    "Clever Advertising Or 'Bait & Switch'?
    Target 5 Reports On 'Clown Cars' That May Lure Buyers


    CHICAGO -- In response to consumer complaints, Lisa Parker conducted a Target 5 investigation into the car-selling techniques of a local dealer.

    'Is it clever advertising or 'bait and switch'?' Parker asked about using 'clown cars' to lure buyers.

    Dealer Accused Of Bait & Switch

    'Anyone in the market for a gleaming new Chevrolet Aveo should expect a basic price above $10,000,' Parker said. '(But) anyone opening Chicago newspapers recently might jump to see the Aveo offered at $7,295 -- more than 20 percent off the lowest list price.'

    Yet that was the 'astonishing deal' offered by a major player on Chicago's car scene -- Grossinger Chevrolet, a family business that owns four dealerships, one of which is making a stir with its 'rock-bottom' ad prices.

    'So how can one dealer sell so cheap?' Parker asked.

    The low prices lured a Buffalo Grove family to the Grossinger Toyota showroom. A late February ad offered a new 2003 Camry at a great price. A call to the dealership assured them there were three in stock.

    'I wasn't crazy about the colors, but for that price I would have taken any one of them,' Marge Rothman told Target 5.

    But if the ad was the 'bait,' Rothman said, the 'switch' came when they walked into the dealership.

    'He (the salesman) came back in 10 minutes and said, 'We don't have those cars in stock. All we have is one with manual transmission,'' Marge's son-in-law, Craig Neustadt, recalled. 'And I said, 'You just told me on the phone.''

    Rothman and Neustadt said they could not get what the ad promised, so Target 5 decided to send a producer into the dealership with an undercover camera to see if she could get the bargain-basement Aveo listed in the current week's paper.

    When the Target 5 producer took the undercover camera out to see the 'new' car, a salesman showed her a 2004 Aveo with two colors on its vinyl roof -- half pink, half green. It was referred to as the 'Clown Edition.'

    The salesman on the lot assured the Target 5 undercover producer and photographer that it might be fine for teenagers. He then offered to show them other Aveos, with regular features and much higher prices.

    'That's a classic bait and switch,' Attorney General Lisa Madigan said. 'An advertisement is published, people see a great price, they get to the dealership and see a clown car. You don't want a clown car! You want a good-looking car -- just like they advertised!'

    The clown-car tactic was just one of several Grossinger violations recently alleged by the attorney general's office, which said that omitting important facts about a car is deceptive advertising.

    'We have laws that protect consumers, and they protect consumers from false advertising,' Madigan said.

    'I don't believe it's a tactic,' Grossinger attorney Stuart Gordon told Parker. 'I think it's more of a marketing device.'

    Grossinger admitted no wrongdoing but paid $30,000 to resolve the attorney general's case. The $30,000 was a 'slap on the wrist,' according to other area dealers, who declined to go on camera but called the clown car a 'hoax' and 'the purest bait-and-switch out there.'

    'The fact that they are successful indicates they are selling cars at lower prices than their competitors,' Stuart Gordon, Grossinger's Attorney, said.

    But it also indicates they are selling features which are clearly visible from the sky, in an aerial view, but not always in the ads, Parker said.

    As a result of the attorney general's case, Grossinger is now required to say in its ads if a new car has been modified. Ads reviewed by Target 5 last week did say that some vehicles include a 'vinyl roof' but did not say if the roof is pink and green.

    The Better Business Bureau asked Grossinger to resign its membership.

    'As for the Neustadts' complaint, Grossinger said the Buffalo Grove family read the ad wrong,' Parker said.

    Parker added that a dealership representative said its customers love the multicolored roofs, and Grossinger sells about 100 of them per year."

    Those of you who are interested can check out the full test of this article by clicking on the following link: NBC5.com Consumer Reporting. Please feel free to use this discussion to post your thoughts on this situation or on dealer tricks in general. Thanks.

    Car_man
    Host
    Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    In 1999 we bought a Honda from a dealer that was dishonest tried to cheat us. Of course, we weren't thrilled about the experience, but we got the car we wanted at the price we offered, so we were happy.

    Happy is good enough for us.

    If we get another Honda, I would prefer going to another dealer. But if the 1999 dealer is the only one with the options we want, I wouldn't hesitate to go there and make an offer.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    These practices continue...

    " We bought a Honda from a dealer who was dishonest and tried to cheat us"

    I guess PRICE is all that matters, huh?

    Personally, I would have walked out and found an honest dealer even if I had to pay a bit more.

    But that's me...
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    They tried to cheat us just before we gave them a check. As I have said before, we started to leave but they agreed to stop cheating us, so we stayed and bought the car.

    Later I thought about the transaction, and I wondered if we should have walked out.

    If we had it to over again, I would have still have bought the car. I think I take pride in having the attitude that other peoples actions do not affect my decision making. It is the old control thing - the only thing that affects my decisions is what I feel like doing.

    We wanted that car and were willing to pay a certain price. Whether the salesman is a lying, cheating jerk or a wonderful person makes no difference. Their attitude has nothing to do with me getting what I want.

    If they had wasted much of our time, that would have been different. But the time from their trying to cheat us to giving in and doing things our way was about 5 minutes.

    That was 5 1/2 years ago. I just waxed the car on Sunday, and it still looks very nice.
  • eharri3eharri3 Member Posts: 640
    I would personally have to say you forgeited your right to complain about dishonest dealers, as does anyone else who rewards them with business.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    However, I can't recall complaining about dishonest dealers.

    I accept the fact there are bad things in this world and I try to learn how to deal with them insead of whining about how awful everything is.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You may not have complained about dishonest dealers but you rewarded one by giving him your business.

    That's the part I don't understand.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    I don't think I rewarded him any more than he rewarded me.

    I would have rather had the new car than my $20300 and he would have rather had the money. We were both happy with the deal.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Remember...bobst thinking is exactly why sleazy and dishonest dealers thrive. He does not care what kind of dishonesty he must deal with as long as he gets what he wants.
This discussion has been closed.