I have never seen all three of you being absolutely correct together at the same time. You all are right - ain't no cheatin' dealer gonna get between us and the car we want.
We all have things that irritate us. As I have told before, we were looking for an Acura RSX last October, and I went to one dealer that had the exact car we wanted. However, it was very dirty. It looked like Pam Anderson and Tyra Banks had been mud wrestling inside.
I thought that showed the dealer did not have proper respect for automobiles, and I would not want to buy from someone like that. I never even considered going back.
Your challenge for the rest of the day is to rid your mind of the thought of Pam and Tyra mud wrestling.
This may be a rhetorical question but I'll ask it anyway. What's the difference between a dealership who has no regard for the automobile and one who has no regard for customers ( your term was dishonest)? Under your theory if you had knocked some off of your offer ( to get what you considered your fair OTD price) and they accepted would you have bought it then? I guess I'm just trying to understand the distinction.
you forget. this is bobst we are dealing with here. a PDI tech getting in with muddy shoes is a cardinal sin compared to the dealer trying to cheat a couple more thousand dollars out of him.
Most of the board (myself included) seems to think that Bobst has an obligation to penalize unethical dealers by not doing business with them. Sort of a protect-the-community notion. Bobst I think has an alienated stance typical of a loner. He feels under no obligation to act in the interests of the community by penalizing bad dealers.
Bobst the existentialist?
On a different note, I think that Drift blows off rather easily the fact that he works at a chain of 8 (?) stores where every car has an ADM. Drift says something along the lines that this is a non issue to the smart consumer and as long as the dealer principal pays him then things are OK.
Does Drift as a professional auto person have an obligation to not work and train ohers where there is a 100% ADM policy?? Whatever your thoughts on this, it sure diminishes his credibility here. (We won't even go into the accounting mumbo jumbo that the dealer principal tried to snow him with and which he repeated here.)
I understand your thinking but let's take it a step further. if 2 restaraunts are serving a NY Strip steak dinner with the same sides but one is $30 more expensive then the other is the server wrong for waiting tables there?
To me being unethical in the car biz is someone ( either a dealership or consumer) changing a deal after it's already been agreed upon. having ADMs as bowke says is not unethical. I've never wanted a vehicle so bad that I'd pay for an ADM fee over the MSRP but if some dealers can get that and they are DISCLOSING THAT UP FRONT that to me is capitalism not being unethical.
As to drift's diminished credibility I guess we'll agree to disagree on that. I have in the past ( and still do) find him to be a very good source of insight. I'm very thankful that pros like he,bowke,Terry,Rich, Craig, mack,landru,etc. take the time to post here. Do I always agree with everything they say. No but that doesn't mean i question their credibility.
I just feel that people coming at an issue from different viewpoints will come to a different conclusion based on their life experiences ( bobst being a good example of that:-)and that there is nothing wrong with that. Bottom line drift is still a good resource to listen to in my book . :-)
You think it is unethical for a car dealer to change a deal after it has already been agreed on.
As I have told in another thread, last October we offered $20500 OTD for a car, and the sales manager accepted.
When we went into the F&I office to pay, they tried to increase the price to $20501.
Since you think it is unethical for them to change the price after they accepted our offer, would you have refused to deal with them and walked out?
We, on the other hand, don't mind unethical dealers, so we bargained hard with them. After some tense negotiations, we got the price back down to $20500, and we bought the car.
I would consider the $1 a de minimus error and let it go but I understand the point you are trying to make. Almost anyone else would have shrugged at that. Due to your unusual ( but effective for you:-) method of buying vehicles this was unacceptable. We just look at things differently......
What if the dealer said, "I'm sorry, but I miscomputed the price. My son is on vacation and wants to spend two more days with Paris Hilton, so I need to sell the car for $1000 more".
Sounds like a legitimate expense if there ever was one.
is anything I consider a de minimus amount. In bobst's example it's $1. Everyone's threshold is different. Bobst's is absolute. Mine is a little more flexible.
BTW bobst if the dealers son is going to hang with Paris Hilton he'd need to increase the deal by more then 1K. :-)
I'd probably shrug at an error up to about $100.00, but then I wouldn't buy a vehicle that cost more than about 15k. (at this stage in life) Above $100, I'd want a detailed, in writing, description of the error, and access to a calculator. If I didn't like it, I'd walk, otherwise, I'd buy the vehicle. I'd even want an explanation of an error in my favor (cheaper car) Maybe they've switched VIN and I'm not getting what I thought I was buying.
"Everyone's threshold is different. Bobst's is absolute."
I don't believe that Bob has said that his "threshold" is absolute. Often people on these boards are too quick to interprete other's statements and attitudes... frequently in an unfavorable light.
Bob may be absolutely inflexable, I don't know. Bob, if you're out there... whould you have insisted that the contract be re-written for $0.01 (one penny), or would you have shrugged that off?
That wasn't a slam on bobst at all we've both been around a while and he has a unique negoatiting style that works well for him ( but not for most other people). I'll wager that bobst wouldn't accept a penny over. :-)
Yes, I would have refused to pay $20500.01 if they had already agreed to accept our offer of $20500.
Why would I refuse to pay the extra penny? Because I feel like it. When it is our money, no explanation is necessary.
No, Bowke, I would not get upset if the dealer played a trick of some kind.
Remember, the dealers want my money much more than I want the car. If the deal falls apart, they are stuck with a car they have no use for. I, on the other hand, still have my $20500 and I can find other uses for it.
bobst, if you turn and walk, i am not necessarily "stuck" with the car you were going to buy. a good dealership will close about 25% of the people that come in. if you walk, you are no different...therefore no more hurtful...than the other 74.9% of the people who dont buy for some reason. is it disappointing? sure. but no more so than a customer that has bad credit, or buys elsewhere. but we are, by no means, STUCK with it. someone will buy it. maybe for more money, maybe for less, but it doesnt matter.
also, if you have negotiated a mini deal like you probably always do, then its even less heartbraking. in that case, the car is just as valuable as your money. and your money is less valuable than someone that pays more.
BTW, i didnt think you had that much of an ego to think that you actually disappoint people.
"Why would I refuse to pay the extra penny? Because I feel like it"
Thats all well and good...but whats your point? YOU KNOW (most if not all)who post here are not going to balk on a car deal because of an extra penny or even a dollar.
"When it is our money, no explanation is necessary."
Of course, but the spending methods you share with us "make a lovely conversation piece."
You asked what my point was. Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what my point was.
I have always loved cars, and I think we are very lucky to be living at such a wonderful time in history when cars are so available. Driving a car is a real privilege. I can sit in a comfortable position, hear the sounds of the road, and have the freedom to go wherever I want. I can't think of any other inventions that give us such a nice feeling.
Sure, we have logical reasons for needing a car, but at times it is nice to think we have a car just for the fun of it.
Did we have a logical reason for buying the RSX last October? Sure. Our kids have older (94 & 95) cars that may fall apart at a moment's notice, and we wanted to have a third car so we could give them one of our Hondas if they needed it. Also, I had been literally drooling over an RSX for over a year.
However, I liked to pretend we are totally free spirits who buy a car on a whim, just because we feel like it at a certain time.
Yes, I am trying to move into the Hindu third stage of enlightenment.
The two I got this spring (one of which gave me a hole-in-one on my grandson's first birthday), the irons I had made last year and plan to use at 7:30 tomorrow morning, or the putter I had made and threw into the desert at Las Vegas?
Or are you referring to the beautiful heel-balanced (very rare these days) putter I just saw in the catalog I got in the mail today?
Bowke writes "A good dealership will close about 25% of the people that come in...". This sounds very, very high to me. Could Bowke clarify this or give us some data?? I know of no other big-ticket business (except maybe drugs and the oldest profession, and those are not exactly big tickets) where 25% of the walk ins, stay and consumate a deal. Maybe household appliances are an exception but then again the ticket isn't that high.
I have read that something like 90% of the auto shoppers who leave will never be back. This last statistic I think is why the domestic high volume stores act as they do (you know, things like the podium so "managers" can watch the green peas work over the prospect) and the German imports don't because they realize it is a "considered" purchase and they give the prospect information and guidance to make a purchase.
....... Thats a pretty accurate figure .. 25% is about where every store "likes" and "wants" to be ... as far as the podium or manager situation, and the * German imports don't *, thats an Urban Legend ....
Believe me, if the Jag, Bimmer, Benz, Audi or even the Brazilian dealer wants to stay in business, he better be watching his floor traffic "Real Close", folks cross-shop everything ... just because a guy is looking at a "S" class doesn't mean he isn't getting ready to sign a contract for a Lexus .. or perhaps the Audi dealer just threw a brochure at him and didn't follow up and the guy likes the price and the "payments" of an Acura better ..
It's a very competitive business and the sales AND management needs to be on every potential buyer, you never know, you might be at the mall tomorrow and see a new 30 day tag on a Infiniti M45 and the salesman yesterday, passed on the guy looking at a XJ8 ... ya never know.
realistically, its more like 20%. but keep in mind also, that this is not a "1st visit" percentage. be-backs are included here. this number is by taking the total # of deals divided by the total # of floor traffic.
Terry and Bowke, you must be right. Terry's comments on the cross shopper's who must be watched and followed up makes a lot of sense too. Shopping for a car is an emotional experience and an S Class guy could easily fall for an XK rag top or even a Nav.
Consider this: if we exclude the professional lookers (probably a lot of the civilains on this board), this "one in four becomes a buyer at your store" statistic will really shoot up! In other words, there has to be a core of people, probably males, who find shopping for cars a real good pastime. (And given that the career span of many sales people is about 6 weeks, no one ever recognizes the professional shoppers for what they are.) Deduct those time wasters out of the mix and now maybe one in three of the remaining pool becomes a buyer.
You're being a little harsh on us "professional lookers," aren't you big guy? Time wasters?
I don't know if I qualify as one of your "professional lookers" as I rarely go on the lots until I think I might buy, but in the past I have gone on the lots to check out models for a variety of reasons (new model, comparing options, how does this car look in person as opposed to a picture) and made the sales staff aware right away that I was just gathering information.
They are almost always cooperative. You do run into the occasional green pea who insists on trying to close a sale within minutes, but that is rare.
As long as a shopper isn't taking up the sales staff's time, or interferring with other customers, I would think that they would be welcome. Shoppers eventually have to buy.
I placed an order over phone for a Pilot today and gave my credit card to charge a deposit. Didn't sign any papers. Over the phone, the dealer said this deposit is refundable and I can cancel the order any time before signing the paper at the time of delivery. Dealer faxed a purchase order which says "deposit non-refundable". My question is how does this work? If I have to cancel the order for some reason, will I get this deposit back? If the dealer refuses to give this, which is the best place to go to get it resolved?
what reasons could you forsee that would cause you to cancel? did you drive a pilot? did you like it? did you drive competing vehicles to rule them out? is the pilot your final choice? did you order the color and trim you want?
if your answers are yes, then you should have no worry about how to get your money back. sign and drive and enjoy your honda.
I still want my Pilot from this guy. But this dealer is not giving me ANY information on the delivery date of the vehicle. Another dealer called me later and they have one in stock at a cheaper price! That's why I was trying to find out if this deposit is refundable...
BTW, I spoke to that dealer and he sent me a fax clearly stating that the deposit is refundable. So, I guess I am okay now.
I don't understand a refundable deposit...Why would a dealer take a hot product "off the market" while somebody shops around or thinks about it, etc?....either the consumer is buying or they are not. If the buyer is not sure, they should take their chances and don't leave a deposit. If the financing falls thru or the car can not be delivered within the terms of the agreement, then the deposit is understandably refundable. Other than that the deposit should not be refundable.
I always wonder what a customer would do if we were to mail their deposit back to them because someone else offerred us a higher price for the same car?
I'm not familiar with how other stores operate but we always give back deposits. It's not worth it (for us anyway)to take a hard line approach by refusing to give a depsoit back even though it's tempting.
We don't take deposits on cars in stock or on used cars. We aren't about to take a car off the market so a customer can shop around for a better deal.
Audia8q: You indicate that if the buyer is unsure, they should not leave a deposit, but I've never met a dealer who would order a vehicle without a deposit. Do you do this?
You are correct....but why would I special order a vehicle for somebody unless they are buying it?
if a consumer is unsure of a new color or feature it it came in and the buyer really disliked the color, I would let the buyer apply the deposit to a different vehicle....but not to renegotiate.
Well, I don't order a vehicle if I'm unsure, but I don't know how representative I am. Order delivery times can be very long on some models, 3+ months. It's certainly conceivable that someone could be sure at the time they order and have their financial or family circumstances change while waiting for the order.
I've gotta side with Rich (audia) on this one. if people just wanted their deposit back for the circumstances you describe that's one thing. I'll wager however the vast majority who want to back out either had order remorse, found something they liked better and could get faster or found it $50 bucks cheaper 2 towns over. For those folks I'm sorry my sympathy level is pretty low. I guess I just know what I want if i put down a deposit....
I don't doubt that people sometimes want to back out of an order for the reasons that you mention, Duncan. Of course, the discussion is something of a moot point, assuming that the buyer is willing to pursue the deposit in small claims court. If no contract is executed and there's no compensation to the potential buyer, then there's no basis for the dealer to keep the deposit and I have a feeling I know what the judge will decide.
My favorite story involved someone wanting a a particular car (Camry)with a Sun Roof and V6, but no leather. Did not dislike leather, but did not want to pay for it. So he orders the car....dealer would not negotiate on a special order. About 2 weeks later, I bought my Camry. I complained that I could not get the car I wanted (base + Side Airbags). He commented he had to order, and was paying something like 25,500.
He explained how, by ordering, he only paid for the options he wanted. I commented that for 25,500, you could get a CAMRY with just about every option.
He calls the dealer, and the dealer confirms that, by taking a car out of inventory, he could get a much better equipped car for the same price. He cancled his order, and bought a loaded (execept for NAV) Camry.
.......... If I have a vehicle thats in demand, I will hold a 24hr deposit and it better be a pretty "stiff" deposit .. $50 deposits are for holding refrigerators and golf clubs, not $25,000 vehicles ...
That being said, myself or my finance folks are on the horn with our or their lending source the next morning, so there isn't any "gliches" - no "oh wow" they will only loan me $23, or "golly ghee whiz" I didn't realize I owed $9,946 on my $6,500 trade and I didn't want my payments to be over $400 - I hate suprises ....
Also, I'm not a big fan of "allowing" someone to go shop vehicles while they have a 24hr hold on mine and 90% of the time, we are not even comparing apples to apples and thats a very sore spot with me .... last month before I went north, I took a "large deposit" to secure a low mileage 03 S-type "R", I found one with 6,700 miles and had it shipped back ..
When I returned, he had found the "twin" for $3,500 less (really.??) and he wanted me to reduce my price to that amount, that would have been fine -except- there wasn't even half that in profit .. so I said: show me the vehicle, give me the Vin#, give me the specs ~ and, "as usual" there was no low mileage "R" type, it was a 25k 03 "S" type with the 6 banger, about $14grand less in vehicle, but when the "R" showed up he was fine and it was a done deal ..
But if he would have gone sideways on me, I would have taken every expense, every toll, auction cost, fuel, hotel accommodations, transport cost, every Caffe Mocha, Snickers bar and every incured item, plus time, then deducted that from the down payment, then held his balance check for 29 days - and done it with a Big Fat smile ...!
Comments
"well heck! we can try that with everyone! even if they dont fall for it, they will still buy!"
Once I get lied to or someone tries to do something dishonest, I'm out of there. It doesn't matter. I will tell them why they lost the sale and leave.
We all have things that irritate us. As I have told before, we were looking for an Acura RSX last October, and I went to one dealer that had the exact car we wanted. However, it was very dirty. It looked like Pam Anderson and Tyra Banks had been mud wrestling inside.
I thought that showed the dealer did not have proper respect for automobiles, and I would not want to buy from someone like that. I never even considered going back.
Your challenge for the rest of the day is to rid your mind of the thought of Pam and Tyra mud wrestling.
Under your theory if you had knocked some off of your offer ( to get what you considered your fair OTD price) and they accepted would you have bought it then? I guess I'm just trying to understand the distinction.
Duncan
The answer is obvious. One dealer has no regard for autos and the other has no regard for customers.
I simply don't want to buy from a dealer who will mistreat a brand new car.
If I were the dealer, I would have told Pam and Tyra to go mud wrestle somewhere else.
Bobst the existentialist?
On a different note, I think that Drift blows off rather easily the fact that he works at a chain of 8 (?) stores where every car has an ADM. Drift says something along the lines that this is a non issue to the smart consumer and as long as the dealer principal pays him then things are OK.
Does Drift as a professional auto person have an obligation to not work and train ohers where there is a 100% ADM policy?? Whatever your thoughts on this, it sure diminishes his credibility here. (We won't even go into the accounting mumbo jumbo that the dealer principal tried to snow him with and which he repeated here.)
To me being unethical in the car biz is someone ( either a dealership or consumer) changing a deal after it's already been agreed upon. having ADMs as bowke says is not unethical. I've never wanted a vehicle so bad that I'd pay for an ADM fee over the MSRP but if some dealers can get that and they are DISCLOSING THAT UP FRONT that to me is capitalism not being unethical.
As to drift's diminished credibility I guess we'll agree to disagree on that. I have in the past ( and still do) find him to be a very good source of insight. I'm very thankful that pros like he,bowke,Terry,Rich, Craig, mack,landru,etc. take the time to post here. Do I always agree with everything they say. No but that doesn't mean i question their credibility.
I just feel that people coming at an issue from different viewpoints will come to a different conclusion based on their life experiences ( bobst being a good example of that:-)and that there is nothing wrong with that. Bottom line drift is still a good resource to listen to in my book . :-)
Just my .02
Duncan
As I have told in another thread, last October we offered $20500 OTD for a car, and the sales manager accepted.
When we went into the F&I office to pay, they tried to increase the price to $20501.
Since you think it is unethical for them to change the price after they accepted our offer, would you have refused to deal with them and walked out?
We, on the other hand, don't mind unethical dealers, so we bargained hard with them. After some tense negotiations, we got the price back down to $20500, and we bought the car.
Duncan
Sounds like a legitimate expense if there ever was one.
Would you just shrug and pay it?
BTW bobst if the dealers son is going to hang with Paris Hilton he'd need to increase the deal by more then 1K. :-)
Duncan
I don't believe that Bob has said that his "threshold" is absolute. Often people on these boards are too quick to interprete other's statements and attitudes... frequently in an unfavorable light.
Bob may be absolutely inflexable, I don't know. Bob, if you're out there... whould you have insisted that the contract be re-written for $0.01 (one penny), or would you have shrugged that off?
james
Duncan
dealer: "mr. bobst, your OTD price is $20500.95.
bobst: "no! we agreed to $20500!"
dealer: "yes, sir, we did. but you did not specify the change."
i think bobst's head would explode. ;-)
Why would I refuse to pay the extra penny? Because I feel like it. When it is our money, no explanation is necessary.
No, Bowke, I would not get upset if the dealer played a trick of some kind.
Remember, the dealers want my money much more than I want the car. If the deal falls apart, they are stuck with a car they have no use for. I, on the other hand, still have my $20500 and I can find other uses for it.
I wonder if Paris is available tonight?
also, if you have negotiated a mini deal like you probably always do, then its even less heartbraking. in that case, the car is just as valuable as your money. and your money is less valuable than someone that pays more.
BTW, i didnt think you had that much of an ego to think that you actually disappoint people.
Thats all well and good...but whats your point? YOU KNOW (most if not all)who post here are not going to balk on a car deal because of an extra penny or even a dollar.
"When it is our money, no explanation is necessary."
Of course, but the spending methods you share with us "make a lovely conversation piece."
Terry.
I have always loved cars, and I think we are very lucky to be living at such a wonderful time in history when cars are so available. Driving a car is a real privilege. I can sit in a comfortable position, hear the sounds of the road, and have the freedom to go wherever I want. I can't think of any other inventions that give us such a nice feeling.
Sure, we have logical reasons for needing a car, but at times it is nice to think we have a car just for the fun of it.
Did we have a logical reason for buying the RSX last October? Sure. Our kids have older (94 & 95) cars that may fall apart at a moment's notice, and we wanted to have a third car so we could give them one of our Hondas if they needed it. Also, I had been literally drooling over an RSX for over a year.
However, I liked to pretend we are totally free spirits who buy a car on a whim, just because we feel like it at a certain time.
Yes, I am trying to move into the Hindu third stage of enlightenment.
Duncan
Or are you referring to the beautiful heel-balanced (very rare these days) putter I just saw in the catalog I got in the mail today?
Duncan
I have read that something like 90% of the auto shoppers who leave will never be back. This last statistic I think is why the domestic high volume stores act as they do (you know, things like the podium so "managers" can watch the green peas work over the prospect) and the German imports don't because they realize it is a "considered" purchase and they give the prospect information and guidance to make a purchase.
Believe me, if the Jag, Bimmer, Benz, Audi or even the Brazilian dealer wants to stay in business, he better be watching his floor traffic "Real Close", folks cross-shop everything ... just because a guy is looking at a "S" class doesn't mean he isn't getting ready to sign a contract for a Lexus .. or perhaps the Audi dealer just threw a brochure at him and didn't follow up and the guy likes the price and the "payments" of an Acura better ..
It's a very competitive business and the sales AND management needs to be on every potential buyer, you never know, you might be at the mall tomorrow and see a new 30 day tag on a Infiniti M45 and the salesman yesterday, passed on the guy looking at a XJ8 ... ya never know.
Terry.
realistically, its more like 20%. but keep in mind also, that this is not a "1st visit" percentage. be-backs are included here. this number is by taking the total # of deals divided by the total # of floor traffic.
Consider this: if we exclude the professional lookers (probably a lot of the civilains on this board), this "one in four becomes a buyer at your store" statistic will really shoot up! In other words, there has to be a core of people, probably males, who find shopping for cars a real good pastime. (And given that the career span of many sales people is about 6 weeks, no one ever recognizes the professional shoppers for what they are.) Deduct those time wasters out of the mix and now maybe one in three of the remaining pool becomes a buyer.
I don't know if I qualify as one of your "professional lookers" as I rarely go on the lots until I think I might buy, but in the past I have gone on the lots to check out models for a variety of reasons (new model, comparing options, how does this car look in person as opposed to a picture) and made the sales staff aware right away that I was just gathering information.
They are almost always cooperative. You do run into the occasional green pea who insists on trying to close a sale within minutes, but that is rare.
As long as a shopper isn't taking up the sales staff's time, or interferring with other customers, I would think that they would be welcome. Shoppers eventually have to buy.
THANKS IN ADVANCE
Usually when people make a big point of asking more than once if a deposit is refundable, they aren't very serious about buying the car.
It would seem if you are totally committed to buy that Pilot you wouldn't be so worried?
Since Pilots are high demand, short supply cars the dealer would have little fear of loss if you were to cancel anyway.
if your answers are yes, then you should have no worry about how to get your money back. sign and drive and enjoy your honda.
BTW, I spoke to that dealer and he sent me a fax clearly stating that the deposit is refundable. So, I guess I am okay now.
We don't take deposits on cars in stock or on used cars. We aren't about to take a car off the market so a customer can shop around for a better deal.
if a consumer is unsure of a new color or feature it it came in and the buyer really disliked the color, I would let the buyer apply the deposit to a different vehicle....but not to renegotiate.
Duncan
For those folks I'm sorry my sympathy level is pretty low. I guess I just know what I want if i put down a deposit....
Duncan
Duncan
He explained how, by ordering, he only paid for the options he wanted. I commented that for 25,500, you could get a CAMRY with just about every option.
He calls the dealer, and the dealer confirms that, by taking a car out of inventory, he could get a much better equipped car for the same price. He cancled his order, and bought a loaded (execept for NAV) Camry.
That being said, myself or my finance folks are on the horn with our or their lending source the next morning, so there isn't any "gliches" - no "oh wow" they will only loan me $23, or "golly ghee whiz" I didn't realize I owed $9,946 on my $6,500 trade and I didn't want my payments to be over $400 - I hate suprises ....
Also, I'm not a big fan of "allowing" someone to go shop vehicles while they have a 24hr hold on mine and 90% of the time, we are not even comparing apples to apples and thats a very sore spot with me .... last month before I went north, I took a "large deposit" to secure a low mileage 03 S-type "R", I found one with 6,700 miles and had it shipped back ..
When I returned, he had found the "twin" for $3,500 less (really.??) and he wanted me to reduce my price to that amount, that would have been fine -except- there wasn't even half that in profit .. so I said: show me the vehicle, give me the Vin#, give me the specs ~ and, "as usual" there was no low mileage "R" type, it was a 25k 03 "S" type with the 6 banger, about $14grand less in vehicle, but when the "R" showed up he was fine and it was a done deal ..
But if he would have gone sideways on me, I would have taken every expense, every toll, auction cost, fuel, hotel accommodations, transport cost, every Caffe Mocha, Snickers bar and every incured item, plus time, then deducted that from the down payment, then held his balance check for 29 days - and done it with a Big Fat smile ...!
Terry.