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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.
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Terry.
It remains to be seen but consider:
Annual Sales.
............... Celica ..... tC
10/05 YTD.. 3093 .. 63149
2004 YTD.. 7786 .. 28062
2003 YTD 14856 .. zero
2002 YTD 22893 .. zero
The entry level coupe market might not be completely dead. More tC's have been sold in 10 mo's this year than all Celica's in the last 4 yrs. Preludes?
It makes the tC much more valuable to a store than the Celica has been in recent history. Instead of doing abt 10/yr ( 1500+ stores in the US ) the tC in 10 mos averages abt 40/store. We're about triple that. It's the easiest transaction you can imagine.
'Here are my specs'
'Good, Enter them in that computer over there while I write up the Buyers Order'
'When will I get it?'
'It'll be here in 1-4 weeks. Here's your confirmation, Thanks'
'Here are my specs'
'Good, Enter them in that computer over there while I write up the Buyers Order'
'When will I get it?'
'It'll be here in 1-4 weeks. Here's your confirmation, Thanks"
All cars should be sold this way. The buyer wouldn't feel like they are walking in to a shark infested environment! The dealer doesn't have to pay flooring costs, and have "acres of land" to pay taxes on and maintain. The buyer doesn't have to be an expert in negotiation. (I'd better pinch myself...I am dreaming!)
No, Chuck, we like the way cars are sold just fine
"The buyer wouldn't feel like they are walking in to a shark infested environment!"
But that exactly where some of us like to swim.
Yep. and every time we "go for a swim" (buy a car) we are FORCED to swim with you, in YOUR OCEAN, and that is what puts some people at a severe disadvantage!
Chuck, I bet you are probably too young to remember Zorba the Greek.
This topic has been beaten to death on these forums and elsewhere....
Many dealership owners tried to do that exact thing;set one low, non-negotiable price on each car; all the customer had to do was pick theirs out.
Well, the proof is in the pudding.... All of those dealerships folded. As much as people say they'd like it this way, the evidence shows otherwise. It clearly showed that people really did want to shop around for cars and negotiate for their deals. :confuse:
The manufacturer has to be involved with the dealer to set a "fair profit" and sell price for simply doing the paperwork, having a few cars in inventory for test drives, preparing the car for delivery, etc. The service and body shop would then be "profit centers" for the dealer. The manufacturer would only be involved in used cars if only the car came from the manufacturer in the way of an "off rental" or some "Executive use" by the car company in question. If it is not a car made by the manufacturer the dealer represents, then it would be a "hands off" policy. But you are right-if it is not A STANDARD BY ALL DEALERS-it would not work! By the way, most people are terrible negotiators, so I find it hard to believe people love the present system. The surveys simply do not point this out.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Getting the better of these prehistoric creatures is very satisfying.
If the one price dealerships didn't work in the past it was because manufacturers tried to squeeze to much profit out of each vehicle and better deals on similar vehicles could be had elsewhere.
While we are ALL fully aware that there are bad car salespeople/dealers/dealerships, no one likes having the entire profession to which they belong to be slammed and mocked. Let's try to avoid sweeping generalizations.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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When I get there, the salesperson is with another customer, and her backup tells me that the van has been sold - did I come for it specifically or would I be interested in something else? I remained mostly calm, asked to see the lady who called to confirm the appointment - not available. I thanked the gentleman who helped he, agreed it was not his fault, and left. I replied to the dealership's email, asking why I was not informed the vehicle was no longer available (sold the day before, it turned out.) I did get an emailed apology back, explaining that it was not "marked as sold that morning."
Lessons learned: even if this was not an intentional bait-and-switch (I do not believe it was), the vehicle availability information and the scheduled appointment proved worthless in this case. I realized I did not put a deposit on it over the phone - which would have been impossible in any case as the van was sold the day before, according to them. The dealership's operation does not appear very efficient (in this particular instance.) I wasted an hour driving back and forth.
The nice thing is that I should really put off replacing one of our cars. But, if the van would have checked out with a mechanic, it would have been a very good deal (2002 Villager for 9k asking, doc fee of 300.)
The best example I can think of is Carmax. There's no doubt I can find a good reliable used car for less than their advertised prices. So for me, the one price system just doesn't work.
It's the stupid money that subsidizes those tiny profits on vehicles sold to folks that are smart enough to do their homework.
I do agree , there are many dealers who particpate on this site who try to be helpful and courteous. But, then again...there are many others who's practices necessitate having a discussion called ,"Dealer Tricks..."
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I like your post. The only part of the present system I don't like is the lag time it takes for a salesperson and his "manager" to figure out that I am not an idiot and my deal will be skinny.
For example - I recently purchased a brand new 4Runner and traded in a '02 Ford Explorer (only 45K miles, leather, 6 CD,V6, 3rd seat, VERY NICE). I needed a tow vehicle. I told them where my number was. They came back and said, "You know Explorers are weak on the use car market? We can't give you what you want!" BTW, based on the number of Explorers out there, and how Ford has to load heavy rebates on them, I have no doubt they are soft, but I wasn't being unreasonable in my request for what I was asking. They continued, "Based on your outstanding credit, (FICO of 760) would you consider payments for the difference (of your trade)?" I told them again, I was paying cash and said NO. MY wife and I thanked them and literally when I had one hand on the door of the showroom ready to push it open, they relented and met my price. C'mon guys---there has to be a better way!!
LOL! Mark156
I agree. I have been working in hi-line for almost one year and let me tell you time is the currency of the affluent. But even when I worked for VW I valued each customers time. What the problem is in the industry is some Dealerships still continue to flood the sales floor with people who are "green" who are not polished or trained, who are just enthusiastic.And then once these "green peas" think they know everything about selling cars, they burn out, quit or get fired, and then there is the next group. Enthusiasm is wonderful, but organization, professionalism will ultimatly sell cars. I was fortunate to have great mentors all through my career. I do not sell the most cars, I am probably not the most agressive, but I treat everyone I encounter kindly, and I value there time. All you sales people out there know the steps of the sale!! Do we take shortcuts? And when we do we don't sell cars and most of the time someone gets pissed off, like the client or our managers. LONG STORY SHORT If dealers took the time to properly train their people, teach them the steps of the sale especially NEEDS ANALYSIS More cars would be sold, CSI would be higher and the sales process would be shorter.
BTW Feel for you on the Explorer trade in, but on all SUVs right now book values and TMV are so off, its all dependent on auction data, and regional demand.
You sound like a TRUE SALES PROFESSIONAL!!!
Chuck, your buying experience was ideal. You made your offer, they declined, you got up to leave, and they accepted. How much better could it possibly have been?
I couldn't have said it better. Good deal Chuck.
Can you honestly say that, if you made the offer and they accepted right away, you wouldn't be thinking you left money on the table? Most people I know would think they did and beat themselves up over it.
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In deference to bobst, I don't go from dealership to dealership to dealership to strike what I consider a good deal. That bores me to tears.
I may hit 2 maybe 3 dealerships to make certain my research on pricing, the market for the car, etc is correct. But, I won't negotiate with all of them. We'll throw numbers around without sitting down at the desk, but I have a dealership/salesperson in mind that I know I'll prefer doing business with. That's where your approach makes all the difference in the world. If our numbers are so far off after the first volley, I know I won't be negotiating any further with that dealership/salesperson.
Once at my preferred store, it rarely takes more than 15 minutes to come to an agreeable deal.
So you will discuss price with a salesperson, but you have no intention of buying the car from them. I'm sure they appreciate amusing you like that.
I would agree with you on that stickbro. On one of my recent vehicle purchases the salesman made a point of saying he only made a $50 commission on the sale. On
my most recent the sales manager stated that the salesperson would not get any commission due to my superior negotiating skills...which I doubt was true(the commission that is
Over the years, we've all bought enough cars to know which dealerships do business which way. Screamer guys start with the "one only in stock" to get you in the showroom with a low price. They usually start "high" on the car you really want and then you have to wittle them down over a (too) long period of time. I don't like dealing with those guys, but every once in a great while, they'll have exactly what you want and you'll find a sales guy that's "eager" to do a deal with little fan fare.
So, to answer your question directly, I do use those dealers in the hopes that they may have changed their tactics, find someone who is "eager" (usually the SM not the Sales Person), and/or have something I can't find anywhere else.
I DO use that information to go to the dealership I feel most comfortable with, not just to keep them honest (but that's certainly the end result), but to make certain I'm in the ballpark with my offer and the dealerships offer to me.
Go ahead and slice me and dice me.....
I guess what I'm asking is how much is good service worth to you?
It's happened that I've run into someone at one of the "less prefered" dealerships that I connect with for whatever reason. I've already got a price in mind that I've researched here and elsewhere. So, I'm confident in what the worth of the car is in my market. If the less prefered dealership's personnel tells me "yeh, we can get to that price", and then does it, then they're my new preferred dealership given that everything goes smoothly. As I said, this takes all of 10-15 minutes. If they're way off the mark, or it looks like this is going to turn into a protracted session, then I won't waste any more of their time or my time going back and forth. I thank them for their time and move on. If they come back and somehow my offer is $200 (which happens to be my personal "walk point") too low, for example, I move on. Usually, we end up somewhere in the middle. I get ready to move on and they come back and ask if I'd be willing to split the difference. This is along the lines of I agree to split the difference and they throw in floor mats, just as a for instance. If I've not been impressed with the sales person or the dealership, I'll probably walk anyway for $200, or maybe even $100....no back and forth.
It's just not worth my time for me to think that $50 or $100 is going to make much of a difference from one place to another, given I'd have to jump in my car, use my gas and start the process all over again, somewhere else for that little difference. Then, you have to worry about whether the next dealership has what you're looking for, how far it is from your home, etc.
At some point during car shopping, you have to agree to buy and the dealer has to agree to sell. How difficult or simple that process becomes is up to me, the customer, and them, the dealership. I prefer simple over days of running around to different dealerships all over the city, making offers and starting all over again at another dealership with the same process.
Simple, fair, trustworthy and friendly comes first and gets my business. The monetary part is just a partial function of that.
This is the primary reason that 'triggers' the purchase decision. It assumes the vehicle is what the buyer wants or is at least close. It's WAY above price in the hierarchy of reasons to buy.
On your two purchases if they were both good for you then in case one the salesperson probably DID get paid a $50 'mini'. (see prior posts on this point)
The second was likely hyperbole but unnecessary. I'd guess that you got a good deal here too and this was a backhanded compliment to you. Likely here too the salesperson got a $50 'mini' on it.
In this case the salesperson(s) is being paid an hourly rate for doing the paperwork. If one or both salespeople hit their monthly volume bogey then that 'mini' might have doubled to $100 ( split 2 ways )... not all stores do this though.
I know about Toyotas, not other manufacturers. It's Toyota's goal to have all the transactions be 'mini's' with each salesperson doing 30-50 quality deliveries permonth. It's the basis for the Scion experiment.
Consider if a sales person can do 2-3 'mini' deals per day what that equates to in hourly rate.
2 minis with volume bonus = $200-300 per 10 hr day. Toyota is always pushing the efficiency envelope. In this case the thinking ( as I see it ) is...
We will make it possible for every salesperson ( if they wish ) to do 2-3 deliveries per day and make about $300 everyday they show up. There are about 23 working days in a month on average, or about $7000 / month.
That's $85000 per year with little or no hassle if done according to Toyota's plan and .. BIG AND .. the salesperson's commitment to do the work full time.
My minis on new cars are $200-300, but we don't have high volume nameplates. I would find it hard to make $50 per car.
50 deliveries per month!!!!!!! WOW
Why? 'Til now the comp has been Honda/Nissan.. in several years it will be Hyundai everywhere with great product and prices $4-6000 under Japan. My view is that they realize that the former $1500-3000 deals are dinosaurs.
Rather than be blindsided they are laying the groundwork for an $18500 Camry loaded with everything standard (MSRP now is $21500 ) - but no margin. Like Scion one price for the entire country. If this is the Camry then the Corolla will be in the $15000 range loaded, one price for all.
Consider if the Camry which now is reaching nearly 500K units annually suddenly dropped the prices $3000 across the board was marketed like the Scions 'Choose your color and drive home in 1 hour'. How long would the lines be to buy.
When I got into this business I was amazed that all the pricing info was on every automotive website exactly as in our computers. It was given to the sites by Toyota!! They want the customers to be aware and to come in and get a rock bottom deal with no hassle at all. They get paid when the vehicle ships from the factory/port. What we settle upon at the retail level is as you say of no consequence to TMS.... as long as it doesnt reduce their volume in any way. If they have to run over me with a steamroller..'Oh well, adjust or get out of the way. It's the future.'
IMO they dont want to happen to them what is happening to GM/Ford/DC.
How to protect their partners the dealers? They limit as you say the number of dealerships and tell them to expect to double sales in 5-10 years - but at a lower profit per vehicle. Overall the gross profit will be greater. If you dont want to accept this.. 'Oh well, get out of the way or get crushed.'
But the dealers cannot deliver every vehicle themselves. There must be someone on the retail floor. To the sales people:
'We will essentially provide you with the opportunity to deliver 40-70 vehicles per month, two a day AM and PM, but you will make less on each.'
The compensation for this increased workload is that each and everyone will be a 'laydown' to you as an ordertaker. 'Oh you want a Silver LE, good it'll be ready for you in an hour, sign here, sign here, sign here.'
If any salesperson thinks this is too much work to deliver 30+ vehicles per month 'Oh well, move over someone else will do it.'
Used vehicles are not the concern of TMS but if a store wishes, anyone can sell used as well. It's a local matter as long as it doesnt reduce new car volume. If a sales person can do 30+ deliveries on new and 10-15 on Used good for him/her.
KD, For those of us who are lay-people, and know how to get a good deal and negotiate, please expand on why you would be against such a system. It seems to me to be very pro-consumer. What is wrong with that? I am for it, even though I will probably pay slightly more than I do now for a car.
The Scion experiment IMO is an initial step in this reorienting process. It is both a sales tool to move Scions to a specific segment but it is also a way to gauge how the US buying public might react to such a sales method. With Hyundai-level prices Scion is ensuring that the buyer gets good value.
The concept as you say is pro consumer because he gets better value for his money with less effort. But it is win/win because with the proper preparation Toyota moves more volume also with less effort.
In the short term it would be very difficult to implement absent a dramatic change in the market IMO.
I am not really in favor for manufacturers fixing the price for retailers (although I am not so much against it either), as local conditions vary (say megastore in L.A. suburbs has different costs per vehicle than much smaller dealer in Ocala, FL). However, idea of one price for all at a given giver place and time appeals to me - like all other items we buy every day: same TV set will be more expensive at SEARS than say BestBuy, but less than at Sound Advice, but different people will pay same price at those stores when buying 5 minutes apart (at least most of the time).
I know, some people's (can you say Bobst?
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On your two purchases if they were both good for you then in case one the salesperson probably DID get paid a $50 'mini'.
As a buyer, is that my concern, though? I don't doubt that the salesman did make a mini, but telling me that in the negotiation isn't going to change my side.
I found my recent purchase online, and when I knew I wanted to buy it I asked the salesman what his best price was. He went to the manager and came back with the whole "it hurts him to do this because it's priced so low to start with" spiel and dropped the price $100.
Sweet, sweet salesman but lousy actor. Hands over the heart, puppy dog eyes, the whole works. I had him work up the OTD price, then knocked about $400 off and said I'd write a check for that. Came back with the same "oh no, just can't" speech and had dropped it another hundred. I stood up, stuck out my hand and said, "When your manager will sell it for that, please call me. You have my number." It was all I could do to not laugh because the sheer "oh crap" look of panic on his face was NOT a bad acting ploy that time.
So the manager himself hollers that I need to work with him, I "give in" and give back $100, everybody's happy, I have the car, manager still feels the need to tell me how I skinned him, etc. I don't have any idea how much they made on that deal, because according to every valuation I had, including my mechanic, the car should have been priced a little higher than it was. The car was good value to me at it's stated price and I didn't feel like traipsing all over town starting over with the mechanic and negotiating, so yes, I was mostly negotiating for the heck of.
However, there was something --enough, obviously -- in it for them or they would have let me walk. Maybe the guy who traded it in got a sucker deal, who knows.
I have no problem walking a customer. I will shake their hand and thank them for giving me a shot at their business.
I have no fear of loss and my customers quickly learn that.
I do have a question...why would you depend on some mechanic trying to guess the value of a car? Mechanics repair cars and generally know very little about what a car is worth.
Yeah, I've seen that face a couple times. One of the more "trickier" dealerships in Louisville (that I will never go back to) was playing all kinds of games with a Camry I was prepared to buy about 5 years ago. They tell me I can test drive it...but they can't find the keys. They will have to look up the code numbers or something and cut another key. In the meantime they start pulling up other cars to show me. Twenty , thirty minutes go by...still no key. I tell them I'll make an offer on the Camry if they accept...then I'll test drive...if it test drives well then I'll write a check for the negotiated price. Well, they don't go down much on the Camry...it's Halloween, so I want to get home and get to trick or treating with the kids(the more they get the more I get
I already know that the Camry probably had already been sold or someone left a deposit on it. They were probably hoping to get a much higher price on it...or using it as bait to switch me to something else. Oh, and by the way, we got home in plenty of time for tricks or treats.
Precisely to my point. 'Reorientation'.
Actually in this model there are no sales or promotions at any time during the year.... and there is no price differentiation between say a Longo which does 2000-2500 veh a month or one in upstate VT which does 14 veh / mo.
Also, mechanics/repairman are about the same as the bank/credit union for info on what to buy. They don't always have the proper perspective. A Toyota tech may think the Avalon is much more reliable than a Camry because for the most part sees Camrys. Obviously sales #'s are going to put more Camrys than Avalons in service. They also generally prefer the vehicles that are "easy" to work on.
It seems that you could have people lining up to buy Accords and that ever so appealing new Cvic. (I really like it!)
A new Accord for a "value price" of....say $18,995.00 or something around there?
Legit question. Actually, it's a car checker service ... estimated value is just part of the package with the road test, engine diagnostics, was it wrecked, all the little switches working properly, etc. I'm sure he does about the same thing I do to estimate the value (look on here... lol) but that's the least of what I'm paying for. More important to me was him pointing out a poorly repainted quarter-size chip on the hood I hadn't noticed and telling me how much I could expect to pay to have that repaired properly. I was very comfortable when I took it to a body shop and their quote was only about $25 more than he'd told me to expect.
As for walking me, we were playing chicken. I'd have come crawling back if he'd let me go. Like I said, too lazy to start over. I've always had pleasant buying experiences, though., so I don't go into it confrontational or defensive. Dithered for months over a new couch and to this day worry that I paid more than I should have, will it hold up, etc., but for some reason I have no problem buying cars with confidence. I've never had a salesman not recognize that I'm serious and informed, and only one slight bobble by one curious about when my husband would be by, but he left that behind quickly.