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Audi A8
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Comments
Just 2 questions, do directors really total the "real" car or its just a model?
Next, what to car mag. testers(Car&Driver,Automobile,Motor Trend and others)do with the tested cars once they are finished. It seems to be pasted to other companies for testing(just what I think).
I love all (modern)large european sedans like the A8,S Class,740i sport etc.
Which ones and what were the reasons for your decision?
I think most cars today are dependable and largely trouble free, what separates them are cost, warranty, and personal preference. Any number of cars are worth buying, it just depends on what one likes and the deal he/she gets.
M
I own an A8 4.2l 1998 and have some non
theoretical experiences to share.
1. It takes a hell of a long time to get the AL
automobile fixed. I was run off the road at a high
speed clover leaf access and what looked like a
safe run off zone had a hidden 4' deep drainage
ditch. Over three months w/o my ten day old car.
Cost to my insurance company $27,000.
2. Rear vision from the driver's seat is
dangerously poor. The passenger's outside mirror is
small and awful with several major blind spots on
the right. Driver's side is a little better,
however, compared to the S class cars I have driven
it is outrageous that Audi would do such a
shameful job on the safety details. Directly out
the rear window there are major blind areas due to
the very large rear seat head rests. In addition
the C pillar's design was deemed production ready
in 1991.
The 1991 date came from one of two books Audi
sends its' A8 owners. I am still surprised at the
emphasis made about the C pillar size being fixed
as it is by management. Between the head rests and
the fat pillars there are two very large blind
spots to the right and left when backing up or
using the rear view mirror.
I requested modification to the rear head rests
before delivery. I received what has become a stock
answer from Audi "No, the car passed all safety
requirements......." My dealings with Audi for the
past 19 months have been an ongoing nightmare of
duplicity, arrogance, and unprofessional. My worst
Dealer and Manufacture experience in 41 years of
car ownership.
The Audi dynamic still puzzles me since their
advertisements, image, and history are performance
related. My dealer started off very positively
about several changes I wanted to make after
driving the car for 4-5k miles. What a shock to
have exhaust and brake upgrades refused after the
dealer conferred with the area representative for
Audi. The most disturbing aspect about the refusal
was being treated like a "slow child" and treated
in a very unpleasant manner.
It seems that when my dealer confers with the Audi
represenative that their formerly friendly and
willingness to participate, if not doing the work
helping acquire parts and provide referrals to
competent Audi qualified Tuner/Mechanics.
These are among the high points of my ongoing
"enthusiastic" discussions with Audi. My most
recent service, first oil change, detailing, a few
clunks from the front end, and an intermittent
problem with the entry remote system was awful. I
sent the car right back with a five point re do
list including the remote control being totally non
functional when my A8 was returned. My A8 has been
at the dealer for three and one half weeks and
still the entry remote does not work.
The A8 is a fine car to drive, some times anyway,
ie: when no one is passing on the right or left
side with a speed differential > 20 MPH over my 80
mph on the interstate. Too many near misses when
making a signaled lane change that includes LOOK
out the window in the direction you are going to
double check for any UFO's closing rapidly. Only my
1988 Honda CRX SI, "Car of the Year" was worse for
rear vision and I sold it after 9 months of
ownership.
Beautiful execution of detail and refinement
marred by inexplicable safety deficiencies: vision
and awkwardness using the dash controls for
heat/cool and radio. Far too distracting for the
driver. The two companies supplying rear view
mirrors, the center one inside, are Gentex and
Donnelley? Both of these manufacture's offer
mirrors with a compass integrated into the mirror.
Quite similar to my wife's Grand Cherokee LTD. In
the Audi models prior to 99 or 00 that incorporate
a GPS unit as part of the front center console. I
want my damned compass and feel mildly miffed that
I need to pay $180 - $250 for a mirror
incorporating a compass.
I wonder if the close association of the Audi R &
D / manufacturing creates a "Not Invented Here"
syndrome? This may account for the lack of
forethought oversights that are so annoying with
the A8. IE: NOT TETHER FOR THE GAS CAP OR PLACE TO
SECURE IT. This oversight is a grade three fubar.
Should you avoid the A8? I'm neither qualified to
have an opinion Audi, or intelligent enough to make
wise decisions Dealer. Funny I'm the gentleman who
paid $70k (taxes tags etc.) for a fully loaded,
every option except 17" wheels for the A8.
Anonymous and angry.
PS: I investigate "parktronic" equipment to
compensate for the lack of safe rear vision when
backing up and decided up a Microwave 10 ghz unit
with a transceiver mounted on a license plate
bracket and a small annunciator and visual display
that provides both three levels 3' 6' 12' alerting
to obsticals behind the car when in reverse. I
asked my dealer to install it. 2 wires without
polarity consideration for voltage and running the
audio/visual alert head (2" x 3/4 x 1").
My dealer's service manager called me up in a huff
about my requesting they install aftermarket parts
on my A8. Audi rep said NO. Dealership said if
they wanted to do aftermarket they'd go to work for
BestBuy or Circuit City.
I own an A8 4.2l 1998 and have some non
theoretical experiences to share.
1. It takes a hell of a long time to get the AL
automobile fixed. I was run off the road at a high
speed clover leaf access and what looked like a
safe run off zone had a hidden 4' deep drainage
ditch. Over three months w/o my ten day old car.
Cost to my insurance company $27,000.
2. Rear vision from the driver's seat is
dangerously poor. The passenger's outside mirror is
small and awful with several major blind spots on
the right. Driver's side is a little better,
however, compared to the S class cars I have driven
it is outrageous that Audi would do such a
shameful job on the safety details. Directly out
the rear window there are major blind areas due to
the very large rear seat head rests. In addition
the C pillar's design was deemed production ready
in 1991.
The 1991 date came from one of two books Audi
sends its' A8 owners. I am still surprised at the
emphasis made about the C pillar size being fixed
as it is by management. Between the head rests and
the fat pillars there are two very large blind
spots to the right and left when backing up or
using the rear view mirror.
I requested modification to the rear head rests
before delivery. I received what has become a stock
answer from Audi "No, the car passed all safety
requirements......." My dealings with Audi for the
past 19 months have been an ongoing nightmare of
duplicity, arrogance, and unprofessional. My worst
Dealer and Manufacture experience in 41 years of
car ownership.
The Audi dynamic still puzzles me since their
advertisements, image, and history are performance
related. My dealer started off very positively
about several changes I wanted to make after
driving the car for 4-5k miles. What a shock to
have exhaust and brake upgrades refused after the
dealer conferred with the area representative for
Audi. The most disturbing aspect about the refusal
was being treated like a "slow child" and treated
in a very unpleasant manner.
It seems that when my dealer confers with the Audi
represenative that their formerly friendly and
willingness to participate, if not doing the work
helping acquire parts and provide referrals to
competent Audi qualified Tuner/Mechanics.
These are among the high points of my ongoing
"enthusiastic" discussions with Audi. My most
recent service, first oil change, detailing, a few
clunks from the front end, and an intermittent
problem with the entry remote system was awful. I
sent the car right back with a five point re do
list including the remote control being totally non
functional when my A8 was returned. My A8 has been
at the dealer for three and one half weeks and
still the entry remote does not work.
The A8 is a fine car to drive, some times anyway,
ie: when no one is passing on the right or left
side with a speed differential > 20 MPH over my 80
mph on the interstate. Too many near misses when
making a signaled lane change that includes LOOK
out the window in the direction you are going to
double check for any UFO's closing rapidly. Only my
1988 Honda CRX SI, "Car of the Year" was worse for
rear vision and I sold it after 9 months of
ownership.
Beautiful execution of detail and refinement
marred by inexplicable safety deficiencies: vision
and awkwardness using the dash controls for
heat/cool and radio. Far too distracting for the
driver. The two companies supplying rear view
mirrors, the center one inside, are Gentex and
Donnelley? Both of these manufacture's offer
mirrors with a compass integrated into the mirror.
Quite similar to my wife's Grand Cherokee LTD. In
the Audi models prior to 99 or 00 that incorporate
a GPS unit as part of the front center console. I
want my damned compass and feel mildly miffed that
I need to pay $180 - $250 for a mirror
incorporating a compass.
I wonder if the close association of the Audi R &
D / manufacturing creates a "Not Invented Here"
syndrome? This may account for the lack of
forethought oversights that are so annoying with
the A8. IE: NOT TETHER FOR THE GAS CAP OR PLACE TO
SECURE IT. This oversight is a grade three fubar.
Should you avoid the A8? I'm neither qualified to
have an opinion per: Audi, or intelligent enough to make wise decisions per: Dealer. Funny I'm the gentleman who paid $70k (taxes tags etc.) for a fully loaded, every option except 17" wheels for the A8. My experience is an ongoing aggravation in the extreme, and I hope your experiences with your dealer and Audi of America are far more positive than mine are.
Sincerely,
Anonymous and angry.
PS: I investigate "parktronic" equipment to
compensate for the lack of safe rear vision when
backing up and decided up a Microwave 10 ghz unit
with a transceiver mounted on a license plate
bracket and a small annunciator and visual display
that provides both three levels 3' 6' 12' alerting
to obsticals behind the car when in reverse. I
asked my dealer to install it. 2 wires without
polarity consideration for voltage and running the
audio/visual alert head (2" x 3/4 x 1").
My dealer's service manager called me up in a huff
about my requesting they install aftermarket parts
on my A8. Audi rep said NO. Dealership said if
they wanted to do aftermarket they'd go to work for BestBuy or Circuit City.
M
I'd like a 540, if they hadn't ruined its design. Also, if winter driving is a concern, then there is no comparing the A8 Quattro to a 540 rear wheel drive (BMW can keep the "traction control").
For me, the A8 still has some character in body style (though it is, admittedly, no 740/750). And the attention to detail in the passenger cabin is absolutely to my liking.
As a pure matter of road manners (cornering, handling, ride, etc.) I think it is a coin flip between these two choices. Will either be a dream? Yup. But the A8 will set you back a number of $$ more.
Good choices and good luck.
2) The A8 3.7 model has been discontinued.
3) The base MSRP has been reduced to $62,000.
4) A new front grille, revised door handles, and revised front apron change with foglights are the main exterior changes.
5) Interior upgrades include a revised center console with Symphony stereo (in-dash CD/cassette).
6) New options include park distance control, and navigation system.
For exact invoice and MSRP, you can visit the www.a4.org A8/S8 forum.
Note that the navigation system is not the full- screen type with maps. It's a simple design with simple directions and voice (same as A4 and A6).
MSRP for '00 A8 4.2 quattro:
base - $62000
warm weather pkg - $1200
premium comfort pkg - $1500
xenon - $500
17" wheels - $1000
navigation - $1100
acoustic parking - $700
ESP - $550 (electronic stability program)
premium alcantara - $3500
phone - $495
destination - $525
Invoice prices for '00 A8 4.2 quattro
base - $54805
warm weather pkg - $1056
premium comfort pkg - $1320
xenon - $440
17" wheels - $880
navigation - $968
acoustic parking - $616
ESP - $484
premium alcantara - $3080
phone - $431
1) BMW 740iL
2) Lexus LS400
3) Audi A8 4.2 quattro
4) Mercedes Benz S430
5) Jaguar XJ8
The A8 finished with 90 points, 3 points behind the winner and 1 point behind the LS400. The A8 had the strongest acceleration among the group, although all the numbers seem on the high side (A8 was fastest in 0-60 at 7.0 seconds). Lexus claimes that the LS400 accelerates to 60 mph in 6.3 seconds. Well in this test, the LS400 was about a full second slower.
The A8 lost points for relatively harsh ride, weak brakes, excessive tire noise and lack of adequate room in the back for three passengers. The base and as-tested prices listed for the A8 seem to be about 5 grand too high ($67,500 base vs actual $62,000). Also, the vehicle weight is listed at over 4000 lbs. It was my impression that the '00 model weighs close to 3850 lbs with the additional use of aluminum suspension components.
By the way, the revised interior of the A8 (as shown in one of the pictures) is simply gorgeous.
I am surprised the '00 A8's MSRP is down about 10%, I guess the exchange rate is helping. Not a day goes by when at heads are turned to take a lookat my black beauty.
There's always an idiot in the crowd though. I had this 20 something guy come to me a 40 something guy and asked me how I liked my Audi and inquired if it was as A4. I corrected him cordially and advised him it was an A8 & was all aluminium, he was still clueless. He then proceeded to relay a story of his older brother 1980 something Audi and all the problems he encountered. I asked him if he ever heard of any old german car of the early '80's vintage that didn't have problems with lots of maintenance costs. He just went da ! I further commented that my Audi has 3 years of free maintenance, he was surprised again.
His last comment..as he walked away.." I would rather own a BMW ".....I said nothing but thought to myself, " people, really are narrow minded" but I must admit we are seeing more and more of the A4's & 6's on the roads these days.
I can't wait to see that bad A6 with a V8 dropped under the hood. It surely will give the 5 Series a run for the money. I would then expect the horsepower to increase from the 310 to the higher 300's in the next couple of years for the A8, even though I've outrun a 740iL on the Interstate.
I've read that the S8 won't meet EPA emission standards for the US.
dat
Concerning your 20 something experience all I can say is in a world full of lemmings, the A8 is not easily appreciated or understood. As far as the automotive press goes, I know where they are coming from. The A8 is a brilliant car. Many of the reviewers love the A8. (Perhaps you should read some of its' reviews in Automobile Magazine.) But as brilliant as it is, the car does have some quirks that give the automotive press pause to place the vehicle in front of everything else in it's class. Why does BMW end up in front in this comparison? For the most part, because they make the kind of product the auto press loves. A flawlessly executed rear wheel drive car that has tight steering and great road manners. I can't speak to the Lexus because I have never driven one but apparently they seem to have matched manufacturing benchmarks with the rest of the top 5. From what I can see in the point spread mentioned in alib 1 post #23 there is little difference between first, second and third ither than personal preference.
As for the price drop I'm guessing that Audi has amortized the A8 R & D and has lowered manufacturing cost by going to a single engine drive train model. The exchange rate may be helping as well. By the way, in a recent small performance car shoot out in Car and Driver, (or was it Road and Track?) the Audi S4 came out on top of all others in class including their beloved BMW M3.
Everything about the car is designed for driving fast (I mean 100-130mph - the electronically limited top end). The handling feel gets better the faster you go. With your hands off the wheel, the car tracks superbly at speed. Due to the great aerodyamics, there is minimal wind noise even when bucking a 40mph headwind that we get out here. The new control locations are excellent. The cd changer and radio can all be controlled off the steering column without taking your eyes off the road. Acceleration is very quick even on steep mountain roads, although acceleration from standstill in normal drive mode has a slight lag. However the tiptronic allows you to eliminate this lag and keep the transmission in the sweet spot of the torque curve and really move this car. Emergency handling is incredibly good although a quick back and forth lane change at speed will produce some body roll while maintaining good control (this roll is nonexistent however on even the tightest curves). The xenon headlights turn night into day and are so tightly focussed that you can generally use high beams even with opposing traffic.
I've seen all the reviews and can give you my comment on some of the negatives you may have read. First, the backseat definitely is not for 3 adults and leg room is tight if the front seats are all the way back. However, any normal legged driver will have the seat forward enough that back seat leg room for 2 adults or 3 children will be more than adequate. My car came with Goodyear Eagle H-rated LS tires on 17" rims. I have not heard a single squeal out of them and am very happy with their overall performance. I don't know if the 16" rims are getting the Continental tires that were panned in Car and Driver. If you are a driver, this car is exactly the right stiffness. One reviewer downgraded the A8 due to too stiff a ride but I wouldn't want it any other way. At night, the control lamps now blend red for the radio and center console with white lights for the speedometer and tach, a really cool combination. The interior appointments couldn't be better and seat comfort is excellent for long drives.
Of course in snow country, quattro is the only way to go.Bmw's and mercedes don't cut it at all -- a feature which is really downplayed in all the reviews I've read.
In summary, if you need a fashion statement and are hauling trophy wives in the backseat to the opera, go get a bmw or mercedes. If you want a great driving car, have a place to let it run and need a top-handling snow car to get you to the west's top ski areas, get an audi a8.
Everything about the car is designed for driving fast (I mean 100-130mph - the electronically limited top end). The handling feel gets better the faster you go. With your hands off the wheel, the car tracks superbly at speed. Due to the great aerodyamics, there is minimal wind noise even when bucking a 40mph headwind that we get out here. The new control locations are excellent. The cd changer and radio can all be controlled off the steering column without taking your eyes off the road. Acceleration is very quick even on steep mountain roads, although acceleration from standstill in normal drive mode has a slight lag. However the tiptronic allows you to eliminate this lag and keep the transmission in the sweet spot of the torque curve and really move this car. Emergency handling is incredibly good although a quick back and forth lane change at speed will produce some body roll while maintaining good control (this roll is nonexistent however on even the tightest curves). The xenon headlights turn night into day and are so tightly focussed that you can generally use high beams even with opposing traffic.
I've seen all the reviews and can give you my comment on some of the negatives you may have read. First, the backseat definitely is not for 3 adults and leg room is tight if the front seats are all the way back. However, any normal legged driver will have the seat forward enough that back seat leg room for 2 adults or 3 children will be more than adequate. My car came with Goodyear Eagle H-rated LS tires on 17" rims. I have not heard a single squeal out of them and am very happy with their overall performance. I don't know if the 16" rims are getting the Continental tires that were panned in Car and Driver. If you are a driver, this car is exactly the right stiffness. One reviewer downgraded the A8 due to too stiff a ride but I wouldn't want it any other way. At night, the control lamps now blend red for the radio and center console with white lights for the speedometer and tach, a really cool combination. The interior appointments couldn't be better and seat comfort is excellent for long drives.
Of course in snow country, quattro is the only way to go.Bmw's and mercedes don't cut it at all -- a feature which is really downplayed in all the reviews I've read.
In summary, if you need a fashion statement and are hauling trophy wives in the backseat to the opera, go get a bmw or mercedes. If you want a great driving car, have a place to let it run and need a top-handling snow car to get you to the west's top ski areas, get an audi a8.
I have not driven the Eagle LS's on wet or snowy roads yet. I've just ordered a set of the H-rated Michelin Pilot snow tires on 16" rims for winter driving. I opted for the 16" rims since the higher tire profile will plow thru deeper snow before hitting the wheels where my experience has been that packed snow in the wheel can sometimes temporarily throw the wheel out of balance.
Let us know how you like the XGT 4's.
Happy motoring!
M
i think that's where i read all about the stretched version of the A8.
Good Luck!
1)There is little difference in the smoothness of the ride i.e it didn't really make the ride any rougher.
2)There is little difference in the road noise except on certain road surfaces that can really make the XGT's howel.
3)The overall handling of the car is improved. The eagles would howel when pressed in a turn and you could feel them giving into rollover (a minor vibration)I get none of that with the new tires. However the XGT can squeal when cornering if you push them hard.
The 17" Ronals are wider than the 16" stock wheels although I stayed with a 225 tire. A 245 may have been a better choice for dry pavement and cut down on some of the squealing but my tire salesman said he felt the 225 would offer better wet weather traction since it would not have to displace as much water to maintain contact with the road.
The top rated vehicle of all types? Thanks to its massive weight and the basic laws of physics, the GMC/Chevrolet Suburban topped the list. However, the Audi beat out a number of larger and heavier "truck-based" vehicles - most of them in fact - which is somewhat surprising to me considering the A8's mostly aluminum exterior.
As I recall, their test is very controversial because they developed their own ranking criteria which is HEAVILY slanted towards the weight of a vehicle regardless of design. The A8 is a safe car but it is also a heavy car even with the aluminum body. The WSJ rating criteria placed a lot of SUVs near the top rankings despite the fact that these things can't maneuver, roll-over if you have to maneuver, are worse than cars in collisions with stationary objects, can't accelerate their way out of trouble spots, etc. I personally wouldn't put much stock in the WSJ ratings. I'm sure there are more established organizations out there doing actual tests that can provide real data on the A8 (FIA NCAP would be a guess).
-rdo
russell.ollie@erols.com
All things being equal, yes more weight is better (simple conservation of momentum shows who has the energy management advantage here). However, in the real world all things aren't equal. There are simply too many heavy vehicles that are heavy because they are purpose built (most of which will transmit crash energy throughout the whole vehicle including the passenger cabin), not because of the weight of the safety innovations that went into the design. The Suburban is a good example. It would fare well more often than not because of the combined effects of it's weight and height. If the Suburban was the exact same vehicle with the ride height of an average car it would change the equation significantly. Would you still want to be T-boned in a Suburban in this scenario? My point is that there is a significant difference between a vehicle engineered for safety that happens to be heavy vs. a vehicle that is simply heavy. If I'm in a vehicle and it's the front of my vehicle striking another car then perhaps a Suburban is a good choice in many scenarios. On the other hand, if I'm being struck by a vehicle, I would much rather be in a vehicle with substantial weight that was designed to manage the energy of a crash in a fashion that protects the occupants. In the WSJ weightings, there is not enough distinction drawn between a 4000 lb A8 or a 4000 lb poorly designed SUV because of the emphasis on weight.
-rdo
russell.ollie@erols.com
You also said that "If the Suburban was the exact same vehicle with the ride height of an average car it would change the equation significantly." But the whole point of the article was to assess the real world safety of various vehicles by taking into account their ACTUAL ride height and vehicle weight -- the way they are built without changing any equations -- IN ADDITION TO the other usual safety factors, including government crash tests. As you said, the Suburban "...would
fare well more often than not because of the
combined effects of it's weight and height" ... PLUS it's seat belts, air bags, heavy frame, etc. But if it collides head on with a loaded dump truck, I'll bet on the dump truck!
(This is my last post on this - we have drifted off topic, as my original point was that the A8 was the top rated SEDAN.)