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High End Luxury Cars



  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    The similarity will have a positive impact on the sales of the Camry and a negative impact on the sales of the LS."

    Good luck with that prediction on the LS.

    I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Unlike say.. the Acura RL, the LS460 really is not a big Camry.

    How many buyers of a RL know that they are driving a car with the same platform of an Accord? Certainly not a majority. The RL does look distinct from the current Accord and most buyers can easily be fooled.

    How many potential buyers of a Lexus LS460 will know that the Camry and a Lexus LS have different platforms when both look so much alike? Certainly not a majority.

    Oh yes we forum members can look beyond the pretty styling of any car and view its chassis and drivetrain with X-ray vision. But the majority of buyers outside this forum lack our X-ray vision and cannot look beneath the skin of a car. The majority of buyers will be swayed primarily by appearances and that is the key liability of having a LS resemble a oversized Camry .
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Then go bet someone but make sure you hedge yourself because you're going to need to. The car is a guaranteed big hit with a lot of staying power. Plus the 600H is going to be snapped up by the high end entertainment crowd big time and the Lexus status bar is going way up.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    If the LS460 was a stock I would be doing a lot of naked call writing in the options market.

    Only time will tell!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I like Sarasota. Charming town.
    Lot's of Lexi there, that's for sure.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Only time will tell!

    For you. I have no doubts.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    MB is not as cost efficient as Toyota just as Toyota is not as cost efficient as Hyundai. This is not about cost efficiency but about how highly MB is perceived relative to the LS and the willingness of buyers to pay bigger bucks for an equivalent MB.

    If buyers are willing to pay bigger bucks for the S why does the LS continually trounce the S in sales YoY for the last 5 yrs running ? Hmmmm.... could it be bcos they are NOT willing to pay bigger bucks, especially where there is a very comparable or better car in the LS ???

    I gave you an example of the LC v LX470. Loaded, a 2006 LX470 retails for $70K. A loaded 2006 LC retails for $60K, a $10K difference. Yet, the higher priced LX470 sells more units than the lower priced LC. Meaning: people will pay for quality. There is a real quality difference b/w these two trucks. If the S430/500 are that much better than the LS, people will gladly pay the higher price, and MB should sell lots more than the cheaper LS.

    Finally, let's do a comparison: How many variants of MB sedans are there v Lexus models ? How many sales of MB cars/SUVs v Lexus cars/SUVs ? How many MB dealerships v Lexus dealerships ???
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!

    No, dewey, it's going to stay carbonated for years to come, although, there's been some sort of chatter about bad transmissions and hesitation issues in the Lexus and Toyota counterparts. Hmmm, maybe there's a slight hairline crack in the Lexus reputation?
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    You know, I would like to comment on some of these posts, but by the time I find the time to read them all, I have to go do something else in my "real" non-electronic life.

    Do you folks realize the volume of messages you are all posting? This forum has been running for just over 6 years, and for those first 6 years there were an average of just over 2000 messages per year (BTW, merc1 had 2 of the first 10). Since January 1st of this year, there have been 722 posts in just 13 days - that's the equivalent of over 20,000 posts per year, or over 10 times the previous rate of posting.

    So if that's the quantitative analysis, how about a qualitative analysis? Does anyone believe that the rantings about the "barge-like" qualities of the LS, or the failure of the BMW 7 to be a true HELM, or the superiority of the LS being proven by its sales (as opposed to sales showing that the LS better captures what the American public wants in a car than the S does), or - perhaps what IMHO will be the worst prediction ever made on this board - that the new LS will fail in the marketplace after the first year*, really add anything to our shared knowledge about luxury cars?

    How about this as a New Year's resolution for 2006: let's shoot for less quantity and more quality!

    *Dewey, I hope your stock picks are better than your auto sales projections! Do you really think that by fall 2007 LS will no longer be the sales leader in this segment? If so, I'll take that wager with you - you choose the amount.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Land Cruiser sales are really hurt by the Sequoia, which outsells it almost 10 to 1. People go into a Toyota showroom and choose the cheaper, bigger and almost as luxurious Sequoia over the Land Cruiser.

    The LX470 doesn't have a Sequoia equivalent sitting next to it taking away sales. There's a reason why Lexus is planning to replace the LX altogether with a Sequoia based JX470.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!

    Have sales of the current LS "fizzled"? No, in fact the ratio of LS sales to S or 7 sales has I believe INCREASED over the past 5 or so years. Note that even though the current LS is "older" (further along in its lifecycle) than the 7, it handily outsells the 7.

    Well, if you're truly "willing to wager", put your money where your mouth is. Here's a proposal: I bet you that the LS still outsells the 7, say in the calendar year 2010. We engage a lawyer to hold bets in escrow. Minimum bet $5k. Send an email to me via Pat (host) if you are interested (just request that it be forwarded to me).
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Oh yes, the "LS sells more because it's cheaper" arguement.

    You've admitted that prestige is "worth something". That a higher price / higher prestige product can outsell a lower price product if the prestige is basically priced appropriately.

    You recognize that Lexus prestige is lower than that of BMW and especially MB. Doesn't that translate into something in sales terms to you? Doesn't it mean that if real people viewed two cars, A and B as exactly the same except for prestige, the higher priced one could sell the same number of units, if it had enough "extra" prestige to justify the higher price?

    The only question is, how much is that prestige worth? Because we don't know the answer, you can't blithely explain away Lexus' sales success as being due to lower prices, because there is an offsetting factor of unknown impact...prestige. If the true "street" price of an equivalently configured LS is 10% lower than a 7, we don't know if the 7's higher presitge is worth 5%, 10%, 15%, or some other number to the average customer.

    Yes, it is easy to say, and true, that lower prices help Lexus. But that should always go along with an equally true statement, that higher prestige helps MB and BMW vs Lexus.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Well, if you're truly "willing to wager", put your money where your mouth is. Here's a proposal: I bet you that the LS still outsells the 7, say in the calendar year 2010. We engage a lawyer to hold bets in escrow. Minimum bet $5k. Send an email to me via Pat (host) if you are interested (just request that it be forwarded to me).

    I only make bets on securities that have a margin of safety. Your bet offers no margin of safety. Therefore I have no choice but to refuse it.

    My LS wager involves risking my credibility here in this virtual community . That in itself is worth more than $5K or a Mona Lisa painting.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I predict that LS sales will be stronger than ever before. The future of the IS and GS are not something I'd be willing to bet on, as those cars have pretty shaky histories. However, if there's a "sure thing" in the U.S. HELM market, the LS is it. We win, you lose. Sorry, better luck next time.

    By the way, you really need to get behind the wheel of a Quattroporte. I'd call it an Ultimate Driving Machine.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    the 2005 Quattroporte only had an Edmunds consumer rating of 8.4.
    Tough crowd!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Gary - when the new S was revealed the board hardly made a stir. Most of the talk was the style decreased, the wheel arches were way overdone and hurt the car badly and that the interior was a carbon copy of the 7-series. But most of those were brief and people moved on. The new LS debuts and all hell breaks loose with 100's of posts. Why - People can't handle it or the excitement in the Lexus camp and have a need to knock the brand as low as they can because of what's coming (3 LS cars, an LFA, a redesigned and probably great SC and hybrids everywhere to steal the thunder as exotic lux cars). Then they talk about nonsense that the car lost something from the Tokyo concept when it's 99% the same (the tiny difference is the grill which is exclusive to the LS600H) and of course the lamest of the lame that it's a copy of the 7 and a big Camry at the same time. Of course logic 101 says that makes the 7 a big Camry as well. Carry that logic through and it means Lexus solely built the LS and the new Camry to dethrone the lowest of the big 3 large sedan lux sellers and one whose best year ever doesn't even come close to the LS' lowest selling year since 2001. Then there's Dewey's absurd LS sales prediction, the same Dewey that a month ago thought DCX is a better growth bet than Toyota (Toyota's up 20-25% since and DCX is nowhere in that months time) and that the US stock market is going nowhere (my portfolio is up 10% in that time period). Gosh I hope he's kidding with the board about some of this because otherwise some of these judgements are the worst in board history.

    Tagman asked what emotions the LS stirs last night. Answer in the Lexican land - tremendous excitement and a wish that the car was already here; In Euroland - tremendous fear and denial to most but reasonable to very good objectivity from Tagman and Designman. What's worse is the auto rags they love to use for defense and proof of greatness, and hence a large asset for german cars, are starting to turn on them.
  • HMMMMMMMM! Well folks it looks like the old saying is true. Money talks and B.S. walks.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Have sales of the current LS "fizzled"? No, in fact the ratio of LS sales to S or 7 sales has I believe INCREASED over the past 5 or so years.

    You should really check the facts before you state "facts" that you "believe".... In fact, 7-series sales were up by over 12% for 2005, while LS430 sales were down by 19%. Hence, the sales ratio DECREASED as recent as just last year.
  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    I am interested in the views of dogowners as to the preference of their pets among the HELM. Do you take them to the dealers to check out the new models? Do they show preferences? Do they influence your decisions?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The new LS debuts and all hell breaks loose with 100's of posts. Why ...

    Well ... also, in part, because upon its (the new LS) release as a tangible product, the comparisons (to the new S-Class and others) then became possible. And, of course, once that possibility of comparison became a reality, the more "polarized" participants could then wager verbal warfare about who's got the better product in their camp. Beyond that, this forum has some of the most "passionate about cars" participants, IMHO.

    very good objectivity from Tagman and Designman

    I'll thank you for that one!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Once upon a time, I lined up the Audi A8, Toyota LS430 and the BMW760Li.
    The dog whom I named 325i to help me not attribute "it" human characteristics lifted its leg on the LS.
    Draw your own conclusion.
  • stomp32stomp32 Posts: 38
    Some people are so entrenched in their respective camps that they are unable or unwilling to objectively view the competition.

    What I gather from reading these posts is that MOST of the so called Lexicans do like the S class and 7 series to a large extent and would definitely consider them if quantifiable things such as reliability and value were to be improved. I think most Lexicans have owned Benz or BMW at some point in time, so they have what I consider a realistic basis for comparison.

    I highly doubt most people in the European camp have ever owned a Lexus (and no, Toyotas do NOT count), and IMO, are likely never to do so. Their views are based on several test drives, if even that, and on what they read in auto mags. I know I'll get a lot of grief for this, but I think their minds were made up on the LS 460 before it was even revealed.

    Now before you Europhiles start in on me, I want to let you know my next car purchase is almost certain to be European. I like Lexus, but I'm not married to it.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Well said, Gary... Ditto Len...

    The LS sales, even in its worst slump year(s) have always been higher than 7 series sales in its best years. That's saying something, isn't it ? We have 3 S-class sedans (430/500/600), 3 7-series sedans (745i/L/760), against 1 LS430, and they cannot even come close to beating it. 2004 C&D comparo had the LS430 #1 against its peers... Which means that the LS430 comes closest to what the American consumers demand in the HELM than either the 7- or the S. That simple.... The argument of price, though important, is specious, since the higher prestige of BMW and MB should negate the cheaper price of the LS, or is the market simply saying the prestige factor is EQUAL amongst the three and the LS offers the overall best value ???? Hmmmmm.....

    As to Dewey's predictions of doom and gloom for the LS460, he is all alone on that one. And he seem to be retracting that unwise prediction already. Howard's 3-series dog lifting its leg to the LS430 says what again ???
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Let's stop calling it "Toyota LS430", hmm. Your continued insistence on bashing it because Lexus and Toyota exist at the same time is frankly childish, and has nothing to do with the LS's strengths and weaknesses as a car. Also you lose basically all of your credibility. Additionally, the fact that your calling it the Audi, and not "Volkswagen A8" is entirely hypocritical. Sit in the corner, sing "Jingle Bells, Toyota Smells" songs to yourself, and let the adults have an actual discussion.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    It was only a spoof in answer to the ridiculous question that prompted it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    "Sit in the corner....and let the adults have an actual discussion."

    In the perfect Lexican world, I realize it would be nice for you and the select few other posters to be here singing the praises of your favorite vehicle without other points of view. And when too many criticisms of your favorite company get posted around here, all of a sudden there is a great plea for "quality" vs "quantity."

    If I feel the LS is a premium Toyota, I will say so. I am far from alone.

    I post about the BMWLi760 and the Lexican view is it's way below the LS in class and doesn't really belong on the HELM board. Instead, the focus becomes what I drive-that I am more of an LPS person, even though I only talk about cars I have actually driven.
    You can't just have it your way.

    I have no opinion on the Audi A8 for the simple reason I have never driven one.
    I hope to in the future. If I do, and feel it's a rip-off, then I surely would have no problem calling it the VWA8.

    Alas, the world is not perfect.
    Besides deep breaths, all I can suggest is just don't read any posts I write.
    There must be a computer program out there which can filter out all the unwanted posts and leave you and your fellow Lexicans in complete contentment.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Howard, I must defend LG here. He is one of the most knowledgable and astute car person you can find on Edmunds'. Yes, he is a Lexus owner, but he is very objective, and not a die-hard fan like some of us. So give him the benefit of the doubt, will ya ?

    BTW, I like your posts. It took me awhile to read b/w the lines, and Len was quite astute to figure it out, that you were being facetious with your *in-your-face* condemnation of the LS460 as a Toyota ripoff. Do you suppose that the Lexus design team and the Camry deign team exchanged design notes so that their output looks similar ? If you follow the trends starting from the ES330, through the IS350, you will see the Lexus design language showing through. The new Avalon won lots of praise from its radical departure from a stodgy style of the past. Now its selling like hot cakes. And it will appear Toyota has another winner in the 2007 Camry. As for the LS460, the jury is out, although consensus opinion shows its gonna be a winner.
  • Anybody notice the similarities between the Mini and the 7 series? Maybe we can call the 7 a giant Mini. I mean really, they are both BMWs.

    Lexicons have already proven their point by offering to put their money where their mouth is. Europhiles couldn't back down fast enough and just had to swallow their humiliation. I will repeat, money talks, bs walks!!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I have no problem with Lexusguy, Oac, and enjoy reading his posts.
    I can be abrasive and I guess I pushed his overdrive button.

    Regardless of my impressions of the LS430, I have posted several times that I intend to drive the new LS460 when it hits the showrooms.
    If I like it I will say so. If I don't, well you will know that too.
    If BMW comes out with a vehicle that turns me off, I will say so.
    I am not married to any company. I get no dividend checks or annual bonuses-only the Famous Amos chocolate chip cookies at the dealer-and they can't buy me that cheap.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    You can call the 7 a giant Mini if you wish.
    I sure wish someone thoughtful out there would deliver me one of those giant Minis.
    It would absolutely make my day.
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