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Comments
Why should it doc? You've stated this over and over and yet you've never, ever been able to admit that the LS' sales dominance is due in part that it always up until now was priced thousands of dollars below the next best-selling car in the class, the S-Class. Why should anyone give any respect to this trumped up boast when you aren't able to even admit to why the LS has had such a stellar sales record? It goes both ways. The comparos I have stated that the LS gets the nod over the S430, my only objection was when people say the LS beast the "S-Class" because that statement isn't true. No LS ever beat a S500, S600 or any other upper end S-Class and as of right now the new LS can't claim anything in the way of comparos. The new LS gets respect from nearly everyone here, including me. Where the disagreement comes in in when you and others try to tell us that it is so superior and all the while the usual measuring sticks say otherwise this time around. On the other hand no one here has ever denied that the LS has been proven in quality, reliability and other things surveyed.
Problem is that when the LS doesn't do well in something that criteria is dismissed as being irrelevant and there goes this respect notion. This picking and choosing of which things matter is getting ridiculous.
The Horse is out of the barn anyway, since the LS430 could do no wrong, except here, where it got zero respect. Now a better LS is here and it's worse than before? Not buyin' what your sellin'.
Wow, lets forget that the competition from Mercedes has moved up several notches from before. Your statement about the new LS being better is true, but so is the S-Class. In fact if you look at the reviews the S-Class has taken a much higher jump in overall competence compared to the previous S relative to the LS. Sure the new LS is "better" than before, but so is the S-Class doc. It is as simple as that. Forget the rest of the cars for a moment and think about your statement. The LS430 was so great (IYO), but that was relative to its time and main competition from MB. Things have changed on both side and it would appear that it has swung in favor of the "S" this time around, at least so far.
Now when the media tries to take shots, and things aren't 100% positive, everyone here is pleased as punch.
You don't see that the because the media is taking shots at this former darling that there could at least be a hint of a non-repeat of 1989? At the very least. Secondly, I don't remember anyone being saddened when the S430 took one after another on the chin. I can't believe you actually stated this Doc as much as you previous ran comparos into the ground. Live by the sword............
Misery loves company. I'm not one to spend too much time in misery. Apparently, neither are Lexus owners.
Wow just the type of thing Lenn was saying happens around here. Thank you for proving that this type of negative nonsense comes from all sides.
M
You're kidding right? You read MT's COTY review of the LS460 and got from that it is still on top yet I'm the one drinking the Kool Aid? When asked to really respond to a valid point you don't and this about who is on the run (while we all know who left) has to be a joke too right?
M
It might. A S450 equipped the same way as that C&D S550 would only differ in straight-line speed, not much else. Since the LS460L has never been able to actually match Lexus' published 0-60 time of 5.4 secs I don't think it will matter. The S450 is a 5.9 0-62 mph car and will likely test at 5.8 or so in a U.S. comparo. A loaded LS460L and a loaded or even "well-equipped" S450 are likely to match directly in price and if that is the case the Lexus is bound to loose because of its dynamics. Pre-production or production won't change the trunk space, but it might help with braking. Do the SWB and LWB cars have the same braking setup?
M
We are not here to discuss other members - or other discussions, for that matter - we are here to discuss the cars.
I understand that some of you have some personal issues here and I empathize with you, but this is not the place to work them out. You may want to exchange email addresses and take it off-line - I hope you will do that and I hope you do work everything out, actually, because all of you are good contributors when you are on topic.
But this discussion is about the cars. The cars. The high end cars and not how we feel about other posters. Those of you who want to keep this discussion viable need to back off the critiques of other members and get back to the subject.
Your cooperation is very much appreciated.
Maybe you should consider test driving an LS before making such a sweeping statement? Here is what one fellow had to say about the LS as compared to A8 (source CL):
Wow, I never thought I would finally say this from an age of 24, that the LS460L is one piece of fine machinery! It moves effortlessly and it changes lane so cleanly and handles that turn like a luxury sedan should do but with fantastic handling that does not suffer any lean to one side or the other. Compared to my Dad's 2006 Audi A8L, this car feels big but feels fast and stable at every manuever I did ( not harsh ones beleive me but decent heavy turns and heavy braking at times). I love the way the seat cradles me and supports me in every aspects. The techno goodies are like a wonderland to me, with the most favorite one is the parking system ( its so easy!!) I dont get howw all these reviews are saying its tough or hard, thats the lack on their part to be clueless and not to understand how to work it before using it! Overall, this car is a winner!!! I think Lexus is gonna have a ball with this one once the sports package are getting out to the lot and the LS600h L are getting out as well.
Found out later on that I really don't like 4-door cars with a few exceptions of course. If there is coupe or convertible version I'll go for that first so now it would be a CL550 or SL550.
Though I don't see how any car in this class fails to change lanes "cleanly" though. :confuse:
M
Not sure what to think now!
M
I was at the opening of the original Tim Horton's on Ottawa Street in Hamilton, Ontario in 1964. Go Leafs!
Wow!!! You actually experienced one of the greatest days in Canadian History. Impressive!
Neither!
The Lexus was a great bargain in 1990 when the MSRP was in the $40K range in Canada. Now it is in the $80K range. Unlike the USA, in Canada the LS prices shot up significantly faster than our inflation rates. The MB S MSRP during these past 17 years grew significantly slower than our inflation rates.
With these kinds of prices is it any wonder that Lexus is not the number one luxury auto company(in fact number 3 seller) in Canada? Value and Lexus is not synonymous in Canada but it still is in the USA.
We should stick to discussing Cars as Pat mentioned.
At no point I have written any thing negative about Euro HELC ( unless you consider me praising the LS's strong suits offensive i.e. price, comfort, reliability ). Also, the published articles about the new LS, especially the bad ones, have so many similarities to what are said in this forum in tones, so I though I just poked fun at them. I do buy and hold TM shares, but it's not because of the LS was able to beat the S430 in comparo. Based on tested numbers, these are my observations about the LS460
- Need more braking power
- Still can be had at a relatively bargain price.
- Just as quick as the competing candidates.
- Small turning radius
- Much quieter than the competing candidates.
My point here is I don't have a single problem about the new LS not beating other cars for the top place, but the negative tones are some thing entirely different.
That is called product/market penetration in terms of marketing 101. However, a price difference to the direct competitor of 30K + is still a bargain in my book.
Value and Lexus is not synonymous in Canada but it still is in the USA.
See above. Unless we are trying force the LS back to entry level luxury.
The comparo starts with: "If you’re in the market for one of the long-wheelbase versions of sports-luxury sedans in the $80,000-to-$100,000 range, then you’re probably . . . who needs a car in which you often sit in the rear while being driven to work or play.
Then focus the tests on driving dynamics, and place LS46L last despite "But if the back seat is where you spend most of your time, then Lexus has its priorities correct."
Hmm, very braindead indeed. It's like ranking cavier below spinach dip in a finger-food review because cavier has too much cholestro and lacks fiber :-) I wonder what the comparo would concluded if the $350k Maybach 62 were included. By the standards of the comparo, an IS350 or 350i would beat all of the LWD HELC entrants. Talk about being braindead.
Mercedes wrote the book on having a good turn radius, but I'm sure Lexus has had time to match or beat it by now, why this is an advantage I'm not sure when neither has a huge turning radius.
M
Years ago, I tried out an RX300, which had something like 41ft turning radius; that was a real pain in the neck for daily use. 40ft for the S550 is not bad at all for a car that long. Edmunds claims the LS460 can do 35ft, and the L version 36ft. I don't know how real these numbers are. They sound fantastic (as in surreal or suspect) Typical family cars have turning radius of 37ft, and sporty compacts 34-35ft.
And those "thousands of dollars" difference in MSRP disappear almost entirely after the lease subsidies are factored in. The total life-time revenue generation for the manufacturer (getting the money all at once or on two separate occasions, the second time after lease return selling way below lease residual), i.e. how much the car is really selling for, is not all that different in S vs. LS, perhaps even in favor of LS in some cases. An illuminating example is 2006 R class vs. 2007 R class. The cars are identical. The MSRP for 2006 is $5000 more than the MSRP for 2007. The residuals are likewise adjusted. With lease interest subsidy, the numbers right now work out to be $50/mo more for 2007 than for identically equipped 2006 despite having an MSRP of $5000 less. Now, how many people will be paying $5000 more a used 2006 model in 2009 than than they'd be willing to pay for a used 2007 model with the same amount of mileage and wear? (if you agree the answer is none, then you agree that the residuals are obviously quite detached from reality) Goes to show that MSRP's are meaningless without checking what the lease subsidies are. The lowest available monthly lease cost is what the car is really selling for.
You have not even been able to admit this in all your touts about S being more expensive. It indeed goes both ways.
1. Spacious, and comfortable.
2. A 9 out of 10 on the ergonomics, and ease of use scale.
3. Refined ride, very quiet, and luxurious
4. Brisk acceleration, with good turn in, and little body motion.
5. Fantastic gizmos [nav, stereo, etc]
5. A stellar reputation concerning service, resale, and reliability.
I hope this helps to clear up some of the "hater" speak, as it doesn't apply to me. I will post my "cons" side of the argument at a later time.
Really not much sense in doing this other than to extend the olive branch, so to speak, to those valued members, with thoughts of leaving the thread.
That is an obvious method of comparing monthly payments when leasing. However, like many consumers, I NEVER lease, although hpowders idea is churning around in my head a lot lately. So, I negotiate price using the dealer's cost and the MSRP, and depending upon the model, I usually find the sweet spot. Lease information has meant nothing to me with regards to my purchases.
When automobile magazines compare vehicles, they use price caregories based upon MSRP. They do not generally categorize and compare vehicles with regards to their lease data.
While the lease information you refer to offers some interesting insight into vehicle values, it is more an indication of market conditions or marketing strategies. It is not the default measurement by which the world measures vehicle prices.
TagMan
BTW, even if you like to pay cash for cars like I do, there is a very simple strategy to take advantage of favorable lease subsidies: lease the car you want to buy, then re-negotiate buy-out price at lease-end. That's what I did with my Saab a few years ago, saving a couple grand (plus low interest subsidies for three years while my zero-risk treasurydirect account returned more than lease interest rate).
"It is not the default measurement by which the world measures vehicle prices."
The world measures vehicle prices only in one way: how much individual consumers pay for it. All the rest is quite irrelevent. Individual consumers pay for vehicles in one of three methods: cash/check, financing taking advantage of mfr financing subsidy, or leasig takign advantage of mfr lease subsity. Whichever of the three method is the least expensive is the true cost of the car because consumers are quite capable of optimizing for themselves. MSRP is obviously quite meaningless for MB cars because the company has another set of "suggestions" on how much dealer should charge for these cars in the form of "suggested dealer contribution."
Are there bargain lease deals for the new 07 S Class? Does such a thing even exist?
Was not Merc discussing the hot selling S Class? How did the lacklustre selling R Class ever get into the picture?
". . . ever been able to admit that the LS' sales dominance is due in part that it always up until now was priced thousands of dollars below the next best-selling car in the class, the S-Class."
In other words, the current round of LS460 vs. S550 was explicitly excluded in that statement (as in "always up untill now was")
The R class example clearly debunks the old bankrupt (literally) theory that residuals are based on real life resale value. No they are not. Residuals are numbers pulled out thin air to make specific target monthly payments possible. The target monthly payment is the real price of entry. MSRP, residual, money factor etc. are just book cooking tools in order to reach the target monthly payment.
If you want to start a new conversation and talk about what holds for the new round of rivalry, we will have to see how things pan out in the months to come when the new LS is readily available in the distribution channels. My suspicion is that the new S will be heavily subsidized just like the old ones.
Of course, the more relevant question for the S-class owner/leaser would be do you want the car back? ;-) If there is no desire to have the car for more than 24-48 months, lease makes even more sense in the face of lease subsidies. Not taking advantage of it would be just like buying the car at MSRP and not taking advantage of any discounts.
Only time will tell. At this point of time MB's need to substantially subsidize leases for their S Class is a non-existent issue.
Was I suppose to bring my hockey stick?
What did I miss here?
Absolutely not. Supply/demand changes can happen during the same model year on the same vehicle. That doesn't mean the price has changed.
Vehicle prices are established. Market conditions and vehicle values fluctuate, even from one state to another.
Magazine comps don't categorize vehicles based on what the latest going average selling price might be for a particular vehicle. Heck, that selling price can be different from one state to another. Here in California certain vehicles are sometimes hot sellers that are not as popular in the rest of the country, and visa-versa. Certain trucks are big sellers in the south, but in some metropolitan areas they have little value.
Sorry, but you are describing MARKET conditions, not standard established MSRPs, which are CONSISTENT and can be uniformly referenced without regards to inconsistencies such as shifts in locations and fluctuating supply and demand at any given time. Market conditions fluctuate and are not consistent.
TagMan
MSRP's are certainly no reflection of real pricing difference when comparing different models from different companies. Different companies engage in different marketting strategies; the difference in strategy dwarfs the difference in MSRP so MSRP as a model for pricing study is NOT CONSISTENT at all when comparing different models from different manufacturers. It may be convenient for people collecting data for number's sake, but certainly no reflection of reality.
Think of this: if I take a $15k Corolla, slap a "ToyBach/MoyBach" badge on it, and put an MSRP of $50k, with a discount of $35k, is the car suddenly a $50k car?? Of course not, regardless what MSRP says. Would it make any difference if the same car is leased with a 36-mo residual of $40k? Once again, not one iota of difference.
The problem with historical S class MSRP is that: if the car is leased at $100k, with a $60k residual, the first "owner" of the car pays only $40k for the privilege of having the car for 36 months; then the second buyer gets the car for $40k (if that). So MB gets $40k + $40k = $80. Where did the other $20k go?? That's why MSRP and the nominal "sale" price in subsidized leases are very poor models of how much those cars actually fetched in the market place.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again, you are describing MARKET conditions, not standard established MSRPs, which are CONSISTENT and can be uniformly referenced without regards to inconsistencies such as shifts in locations and fluctuating supply and demand at any given time. Market conditions fluctuate and are not consistent.
New cars have an initial reference platform called the MSRP. From that point on it is all about MARKET conditions and MARKETING strategies.
TagMan
No doubt the S is a fine vehicle, but I believe the (tri)star power can only carry it so far on big price differential. I'd wager that it would begin in the late spring of 2007.
The market clearing price is what really counts. Every other P(rice) and V(alue) are just arithmatic models trying to capture reality. All the other P's and V's have to follow reality, not the other way around. For example, do you believe 2006 R class is worth $5k more than 2007 model with identical equipment? As the two MSRP's indicate? Of course not. MSRP is not reality; it's only an early-attempt poor approximation of reality.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You are absolutely right. I will have to stop talking about the LS bargain then
Actually some specialized medical doctors, and established lawyers are the biggest pennies pinchers that I know. They all make the amounts of coins that luxury car makers going after :surprise:
And apparently you missed the point that I am not here to discuss what you and Merc discussed. That would be pointless.
And as I said in a prior post the current MB S Class just happens to be priced at a premium to a comparable LS and is selling like hotcakes without subsidized leases. Nope there are no games involved with that statement of mine.
I find that a provocative statement. I'd be interested in knowing how many people driving cars that sell for $40K+ buy them, as opposed to leasing.
While this is the "I've already arrived" board, in the lesser "I'm still trying" boards (entry-level luxury performance sedans & luxury-performance sedans), it becomes clear quickly that the majority lease. Let's be charitable and go with the concept that it's all business-writeoff related. Either way, leasing is a way of life for those segments.
Is it different here?
Financially it makes sense for me to buy a car based on the fact that I really do like keeping my cars for long periods of time. You may call this nutty but I truly miss every single one of my old cars that I had sold (I wish I had a bigger garage)
Really?? So who wrote this in post#22059:
"Are there bargain lease deals for the new 07 S Class? Does such a thing even exist?
Was not Merc discussing the hot selling S Class?"
And as I said in a prior post the current MB S Class just happens to be priced at a premium to a comparable LS and is selling like hotcakes without subsidized leases.
The current S class has been on the market for less than a year. The main competition, the new LS, has not even been fully propagated through the distribution channels. We are not born yesterday; haven't we seen this model cycle thing work before? Several times? "This time is diferent" are four of the most dangerous words in making forecasts, especially for someone who is familiar with the financial industry.
My next car will be a HELC. Buy vs lease analysis will be done when I am ready to make the move.
gotcha!
Fate dictates that the new MB S model is doomed to be subsidized while the new LS model is going to boom without subsididies or price discounts.
Thanks for your 20/20 future vision or should I say your historic rear view mirror vision :confuse:
Forget it Dewey because in that imaginary world everyone leases and MSRP counts for nothing despite some board members stating that they actually like to buy and that the price of a fully loaded previous generation S was a deterrent. The real cheapo lease deal for the previous S came with the S350 and for the final 2 years of the S430/S500 models, yet we're to believe that MSRP never, ever plays a factor in sales.
M
I think I am going to take a break now.