High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My main problem is when Lexus LSreviews, surveys, sales, comparisons reflected Lexus pursuit of perfection for 10-15 years, it gets no respect here.

    Why should it doc? You've stated this over and over and yet you've never, ever been able to admit that the LS' sales dominance is due in part that it always up until now was priced thousands of dollars below the next best-selling car in the class, the S-Class. Why should anyone give any respect to this trumped up boast when you aren't able to even admit to why the LS has had such a stellar sales record? It goes both ways. The comparos I have stated that the LS gets the nod over the S430, my only objection was when people say the LS beast the "S-Class" because that statement isn't true. No LS ever beat a S500, S600 or any other upper end S-Class and as of right now the new LS can't claim anything in the way of comparos. The new LS gets respect from nearly everyone here, including me. Where the disagreement comes in in when you and others try to tell us that it is so superior and all the while the usual measuring sticks say otherwise this time around. On the other hand no one here has ever denied that the LS has been proven in quality, reliability and other things surveyed.

    Problem is that when the LS doesn't do well in something that criteria is dismissed as being irrelevant and there goes this respect notion. This picking and choosing of which things matter is getting ridiculous.

    The Horse is out of the barn anyway, since the LS430 could do no wrong, except here, where it got zero respect. Now a better LS is here and it's worse than before? Not buyin' what your sellin'.

    Wow, lets forget that the competition from Mercedes has moved up several notches from before. Your statement about the new LS being better is true, but so is the S-Class. In fact if you look at the reviews the S-Class has taken a much higher jump in overall competence compared to the previous S relative to the LS. Sure the new LS is "better" than before, but so is the S-Class doc. It is as simple as that. Forget the rest of the cars for a moment and think about your statement. The LS430 was so great (IYO), but that was relative to its time and main competition from MB. Things have changed on both side and it would appear that it has swung in favor of the "S" this time around, at least so far.

    Now when the media tries to take shots, and things aren't 100% positive, everyone here is pleased as punch.

    You don't see that the because the media is taking shots at this former darling that there could at least be a hint of a non-repeat of 1989? At the very least. Secondly, I don't remember anyone being saddened when the S430 took one after another on the chin. I can't believe you actually stated this Doc as much as you previous ran comparos into the ground. Live by the sword............

    Misery loves company. I'm not one to spend too much time in misery. Apparently, neither are Lexus owners.

    Wow just the type of thing Lenn was saying happens around here. Thank you for proving that this type of negative nonsense comes from all sides.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And Merc? Well, he seems to be a decent enough fellow but he has been drinking that Kool Aid for soooooo long that he is never going to change...much.

    You're kidding right? You read MT's COTY review of the LS460 and got from that it is still on top yet I'm the one drinking the Kool Aid? When asked to really respond to a valid point you don't and this about who is on the run (while we all know who left) has to be a joke too right?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Maybe the comparo type reviews will change a bit once the comparison can be made to the S450 rather than S550, and/or once production units are tested.

    It might. A S450 equipped the same way as that C&D S550 would only differ in straight-line speed, not much else. Since the LS460L has never been able to actually match Lexus' published 0-60 time of 5.4 secs I don't think it will matter. The S450 is a 5.9 0-62 mph car and will likely test at 5.8 or so in a U.S. comparo. A loaded LS460L and a loaded or even "well-equipped" S450 are likely to match directly in price and if that is the case the Lexus is bound to loose because of its dynamics. Pre-production or production won't change the trunk space, but it might help with braking. Do the SWB and LWB cars have the same braking setup?

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm calling a halt to all of this.

    We are not here to discuss other members - or other discussions, for that matter - we are here to discuss the cars.

    I understand that some of you have some personal issues here and I empathize with you, but this is not the place to work them out. You may want to exchange email addresses and take it off-line - I hope you will do that and I hope you do work everything out, actually, because all of you are good contributors when you are on topic.

    But this discussion is about the cars. The cars. The high end cars and not how we feel about other posters. Those of you who want to keep this discussion viable need to back off the critiques of other members and get back to the subject.

    Your cooperation is very much appreciated.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    the A8...is an amazing vehicle that the LS can only aspire to

    Maybe you should consider test driving an LS before making such a sweeping statement? Here is what one fellow had to say about the LS as compared to A8 (source CL):

    Wow, I never thought I would finally say this from an age of 24, that the LS460L is one piece of fine machinery! It moves effortlessly and it changes lane so cleanly and handles that turn like a luxury sedan should do but with fantastic handling that does not suffer any lean to one side or the other. Compared to my Dad's 2006 Audi A8L, this car feels big but feels fast and stable at every manuever I did ( not harsh ones beleive me but decent heavy turns and heavy braking at times). I love the way the seat cradles me and supports me in every aspects. The techno goodies are like a wonderland to me, with the most favorite one is the parking system ( its so easy!!) I dont get howw all these reviews are saying its tough or hard, thats the lack on their part to be clueless and not to understand how to work it before using it! Overall, this car is a winner!!! I think Lexus is gonna have a ball with this one once the sports package are getting out to the lot and the LS600h L are getting out as well.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The really interesting part is that he's 24. Then again I wanted a W140 S500 at that age, or at least I thought I did.
    Found out later on that I really don't like 4-door cars with a few exceptions of course. If there is coupe or convertible version I'll go for that first so now it would be a CL550 or SL550.

    Though I don't see how any car in this class fails to change lanes "cleanly" though. :confuse:

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    All the MB wires are buzzing this morning about that darned S-Class convertible. :surprise:

    Not sure what to think now!

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I just hope that S Class convertible brochure at the Detroit Auto Show wont be too big ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Desiring a LWB luxury sedan at 24? Does this guy play lawn bowling and bingo during his spare time?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Coffee and doughnuts fan?
    I was at the opening of the original Tim Horton's on Ottawa Street in Hamilton, Ontario in 1964. Go Leafs!


    Wow!!! You actually experienced one of the greatest days in Canadian History. Impressive!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Back on topic, do you agree that the LS460 is still a bargain comparing to the S550 , even in Canada 86K vs 120K to start?

    Neither!

    The Lexus was a great bargain in 1990 when the MSRP was in the $40K range in Canada. Now it is in the $80K range. Unlike the USA, in Canada the LS prices shot up significantly faster than our inflation rates. The MB S MSRP during these past 17 years grew significantly slower than our inflation rates.

    With these kinds of prices is it any wonder that Lexus is not the number one luxury auto company(in fact number 3 seller) in Canada? Value and Lexus is not synonymous in Canada but it still is in the USA.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Why is so hard for the faithful to believe that the LS460/L didn't repeat 1989 (or 2001) when some of the previous LS strongholds have shifted?
    We should stick to discussing Cars as Pat mentioned.
    At no point I have written any thing negative about Euro HELC ( unless you consider me praising the LS's strong suits offensive i.e. price, comfort, reliability ). Also, the published articles about the new LS, especially the bad ones, have so many similarities to what are said in this forum in tones, so I though I just poked fun at them. I do buy and hold TM shares, but it's not because of the LS was able to beat the S430 in comparo. Based on tested numbers, these are my observations about the LS460
    - Need more braking power
    - Still can be had at a relatively bargain price.
    - Just as quick as the competing candidates.
    - Small turning radius
    - Much quieter than the competing candidates.

    My point here is I don't have a single problem about the new LS not beating other cars for the top place, but the negative tones are some thing entirely different.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    The Lexus was a great bargain in 1990 when the MSRP was in the $40K range in Canada. Now it is in the $80K range.

    That is called product/market penetration in terms of marketing 101. However, a price difference to the direct competitor of 30K + is still a bargain in my book.

    Value and Lexus is not synonymous in Canada but it still is in the USA.
    See above. Unless we are trying force the LS back to entry level luxury.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'm sure most devotees of this forum have read the C&D comparo on long wheel-based HELC's. I just found it remarkably self-contradictory and devoid of logic:

    The comparo starts with: "If you’re in the market for one of the long-wheelbase versions of sports-luxury sedans in the $80,000-to-$100,000 range, then you’re probably . . . who needs a car in which you often sit in the rear while being driven to work or play.

    Then focus the tests on driving dynamics, and place LS46L last despite "But if the back seat is where you spend most of your time, then Lexus has its priorities correct."

    Hmm, very braindead indeed. It's like ranking cavier below spinach dip in a finger-food review because cavier has too much cholestro and lacks fiber :-) I wonder what the comparo would concluded if the $350k Maybach 62 were included. By the standards of the comparo, an IS350 or 350i would beat all of the LWD HELC entrants. Talk about being braindead.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well the LS460L isn't as quick as competing cars, that has been one of its problem in these early test. The SWB LS460 is bit quicker than the S550 in some tests, Road and Track for example.

    Mercedes wrote the book on having a good turn radius, but I'm sure Lexus has had time to match or beat it by now, why this is an advantage I'm not sure when neither has a huge turning radius.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The turning radius is quite important for city driving, as well as manuvering in drive ways and parking lots, especially now that quite a few cities are engaged in misguided attempt to redrawing their parking lots to smaller size in order to raise more parking income (under the guise of promoting small cars, of course :-(

    Years ago, I tried out an RX300, which had something like 41ft turning radius; that was a real pain in the neck for daily use. 40ft for the S550 is not bad at all for a car that long. Edmunds claims the LS460 can do 35ft, and the L version 36ft. I don't know how real these numbers are. They sound fantastic (as in surreal or suspect) Typical family cars have turning radius of 37ft, and sporty compacts 34-35ft.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Canada is a beautiful country. My favorite city remains Calgary, a real young person's place. Shakes out my cobwebs!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    A 35 ft turning circle would indeed be impressive for the LS460; much better than the Acura TL's miserable 39.7 ft.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I may as well butt in here. I presently own a 2004 LS430 and it has an amazingly tight turning radius. I find this very helpful in certain situations (parking, etc.). In fact, I think I read that the LS430 has the tightest turning radius in its class. I imagine the LS460 has a similar turning radius to the LS430. When I sometimes drive my wife's RX400h and I am attempting to make very sharp turns to park or to exit a parking spot I find the considerably larger turning radius annoying compared to what I am use to.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    ever been able to admit that the LS' sales dominance is due in part that it always up until now was priced thousands of dollars below the next best-selling car in the class, the S-Class. Why should anyone give any respect to this trumped up boast when you aren't able to even admit to why the LS has had such a stellar sales record? It goes both ways.

    And those "thousands of dollars" difference in MSRP disappear almost entirely after the lease subsidies are factored in. The total life-time revenue generation for the manufacturer (getting the money all at once or on two separate occasions, the second time after lease return selling way below lease residual), i.e. how much the car is really selling for, is not all that different in S vs. LS, perhaps even in favor of LS in some cases. An illuminating example is 2006 R class vs. 2007 R class. The cars are identical. The MSRP for 2006 is $5000 more than the MSRP for 2007. The residuals are likewise adjusted. With lease interest subsidy, the numbers right now work out to be $50/mo more for 2007 than for identically equipped 2006 despite having an MSRP of $5000 less. Now, how many people will be paying $5000 more a used 2006 model in 2009 than than they'd be willing to pay for a used 2007 model with the same amount of mileage and wear? (if you agree the answer is none, then you agree that the residuals are obviously quite detached from reality) Goes to show that MSRP's are meaningless without checking what the lease subsidies are. The lowest available monthly lease cost is what the car is really selling for.

    You have not even been able to admit this in all your touts about S being more expensive. It indeed goes both ways.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Let me again state my feelings on the LS so that there can be no doubt.

    1. Spacious, and comfortable.
    2. A 9 out of 10 on the ergonomics, and ease of use scale.
    3. Refined ride, very quiet, and luxurious
    4. Brisk acceleration, with good turn in, and little body motion.
    5. Fantastic gizmos [nav, stereo, etc]
    5. A stellar reputation concerning service, resale, and reliability.

    I hope this helps to clear up some of the "hater" speak, as it doesn't apply to me. I will post my "cons" side of the argument at a later time.

    Really not much sense in doing this other than to extend the olive branch, so to speak, to those valued members, with thoughts of leaving the thread.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The lowest available monthly lease cost is what the car is really selling for.

    That is an obvious method of comparing monthly payments when leasing. However, like many consumers, I NEVER lease, although hpowders idea is churning around in my head a lot lately. So, I negotiate price using the dealer's cost and the MSRP, and depending upon the model, I usually find the sweet spot. Lease information has meant nothing to me with regards to my purchases.

    When automobile magazines compare vehicles, they use price caregories based upon MSRP. They do not generally categorize and compare vehicles with regards to their lease data.

    While the lease information you refer to offers some interesting insight into vehicle values, it is more an indication of market conditions or marketing strategies. It is not the default measurement by which the world measures vehicle prices.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It matters not whether you personally lease or not, just like it matters not whether you personally ask for discount from MSRP when buying. The fact that lease subsidies and price discount exist is enough proof that the MSRP's in question are apples to oranges when comparing companies with different marketting strategies. The difference in MSRP's is dwarfed by the diffrence in the various financial games that some manufacturers engage in.

    BTW, even if you like to pay cash for cars like I do, there is a very simple strategy to take advantage of favorable lease subsidies: lease the car you want to buy, then re-negotiate buy-out price at lease-end. That's what I did with my Saab a few years ago, saving a couple grand (plus low interest subsidies for three years while my zero-risk treasurydirect account returned more than lease interest rate).

    "It is not the default measurement by which the world measures vehicle prices."

    The world measures vehicle prices only in one way: how much individual consumers pay for it. All the rest is quite irrelevent. Individual consumers pay for vehicles in one of three methods: cash/check, financing taking advantage of mfr financing subsidy, or leasig takign advantage of mfr lease subsity. Whichever of the three method is the least expensive is the true cost of the car because consumers are quite capable of optimizing for themselves. MSRP is obviously quite meaningless for MB cars because the company has another set of "suggestions" on how much dealer should charge for these cars in the form of "suggested dealer contribution."
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    And those "thousands of dollars" difference in MSRP disappear almost entirely after the lease subsidies are factored in

    Are there bargain lease deals for the new 07 S Class? Does such a thing even exist?
    Was not Merc discussing the hot selling S Class? How did the lacklustre selling R Class ever get into the picture?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    No. The statement from Merc was a generalization of the historical rivary of S vs. LS; he wrote:

    ". . . ever been able to admit that the LS' sales dominance is due in part that it always up until now was priced thousands of dollars below the next best-selling car in the class, the S-Class."

    In other words, the current round of LS460 vs. S550 was explicitly excluded in that statement (as in "always up untill now was")

    The R class example clearly debunks the old bankrupt (literally) theory that residuals are based on real life resale value. No they are not. Residuals are numbers pulled out thin air to make specific target monthly payments possible. The target monthly payment is the real price of entry. MSRP, residual, money factor etc. are just book cooking tools in order to reach the target monthly payment.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    It's only a good strategy if the finance company that owns the car is willing to re-negotiate the buy-out price. Not all of them will.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Merc only addressed the historical comparison, with the current round of rivalry explicit excluded from the discussion, so I tried to stay on topic in my reply.

    If you want to start a new conversation and talk about what holds for the new round of rivalry, we will have to see how things pan out in the months to come when the new LS is readily available in the distribution channels. My suspicion is that the new S will be heavily subsidized just like the old ones.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If they are not willing, you as the one holding money has all the power; namely, return the car and buy a used one with the same vintage (most of the time, you can get that same car! just some paper shuffling "return" and "sold"). It's not like the dealer wants the car to sit on their lot for a few months and get even less money back ;-)

    Of course, the more relevant question for the S-class owner/leaser would be do you want the car back? ;-) If there is no desire to have the car for more than 24-48 months, lease makes even more sense in the face of lease subsidies. Not taking advantage of it would be just like buying the car at MSRP and not taking advantage of any discounts.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My suspicion is that the new S will be heavily subsidized just like the old ones.

    Only time will tell. At this point of time MB's need to substantially subsidize leases for their S Class is a non-existent issue.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Thanks for playing the game. The current price of S vs. LS was never the issue to begin with in the discussion between Merc and I.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What game?
    Was I suppose to bring my hockey stick?
    What did I miss here?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The world measures vehicle prices only in one way: how much individual consumers pay for it.

    Absolutely not. Supply/demand changes can happen during the same model year on the same vehicle. That doesn't mean the price has changed.

    Vehicle prices are established. Market conditions and vehicle values fluctuate, even from one state to another.

    Magazine comps don't categorize vehicles based on what the latest going average selling price might be for a particular vehicle. Heck, that selling price can be different from one state to another. Here in California certain vehicles are sometimes hot sellers that are not as popular in the rest of the country, and visa-versa. Certain trucks are big sellers in the south, but in some metropolitan areas they have little value.

    Sorry, but you are describing MARKET conditions, not standard established MSRPs, which are CONSISTENT and can be uniformly referenced without regards to inconsistencies such as shifts in locations and fluctuating supply and demand at any given time. Market conditions fluctuate and are not consistent.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Supply/demand is what decides real price. MSRP, (historical) average sale price, TMV, etc., etc. are just various different artificial models trying to capture the reality of pricing. Let's not put the cart in front of the horse here.

    MSRP's are certainly no reflection of real pricing difference when comparing different models from different companies. Different companies engage in different marketting strategies; the difference in strategy dwarfs the difference in MSRP so MSRP as a model for pricing study is NOT CONSISTENT at all when comparing different models from different manufacturers. It may be convenient for people collecting data for number's sake, but certainly no reflection of reality.

    Think of this: if I take a $15k Corolla, slap a "ToyBach/MoyBach" badge on it, and put an MSRP of $50k, with a discount of $35k, is the car suddenly a $50k car?? Of course not, regardless what MSRP says. Would it make any difference if the same car is leased with a 36-mo residual of $40k? Once again, not one iota of difference.

    The problem with historical S class MSRP is that: if the car is leased at $100k, with a $60k residual, the first "owner" of the car pays only $40k for the privilege of having the car for 36 months; then the second buyer gets the car for $40k (if that). So MB gets $40k + $40k = $80. Where did the other $20k go?? That's why MSRP and the nominal "sale" price in subsidized leases are very poor models of how much those cars actually fetched in the market place.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    The $50,000. Corolla was an excellent example of the games Mfgs play with their pricing. This has been a very good discussion of subsidized leasing.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    MSRP, (historical) average sale price, TMV, etc., etc. are just various different artificial models trying to capture the reality of pricing.

    Again, you are describing MARKET conditions, not standard established MSRPs, which are CONSISTENT and can be uniformly referenced without regards to inconsistencies such as shifts in locations and fluctuating supply and demand at any given time. Market conditions fluctuate and are not consistent.

    New cars have an initial reference platform called the MSRP. From that point on it is all about MARKET conditions and MARKETING strategies.

    TagMan
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I think this discussion could even be better if we place bets as to when we would see subsidized leases on the S550.
    No doubt the S is a fine vehicle, but I believe the (tri)star power can only carry it so far on big price differential. I'd wager that it would begin in the late spring of 2007.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    How many people actually buy at MSRP? Besides, how is MSRP reached at? MSRP is whatever manufacturer guess the market will bear, in consideration of marketing strategies the company will likely employ in the future. Looking at MSRP only is indeed wrong-headed when we know for fact that that's not the price what most people pay. When we have much more concrete data on what the market actually can/could bear, why do we want to rely on the mfr's initial optimistic guestimate on what the market would bear, namely MSRP? Not to mention that MSRP itself is arbitrarily set by the manufacturer, with future discounting in mind. There is nothing consistent about it all when talking about different mfrs employing different marketting strategies. MSRP is part of marketting strategy.

    The market clearing price is what really counts. Every other P(rice) and V(alue) are just arithmatic models trying to capture reality. All the other P's and V's have to follow reality, not the other way around. For example, do you believe 2006 R class is worth $5k more than 2007 model with identical equipment? As the two MSRP's indicate? Of course not. MSRP is not reality; it's only an early-attempt poor approximation of reality.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Yes, the S is a fine auto but very overpriced IMO. The subsidized lease has always been the Mercedes way of discounting these cars while still trying to save face. I guess they don't realize that anyone considering a car this pricey just might have a little financial savvy, eh?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Yes, auto pricing works pretty much like the Stock Market. If a IPO comes out an initial price (MSRP) is assigned to that stock. After the first day this artificial price is usually of no importance and is never seen again.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    You missed the fact that Merc and I were not talking about the current LS460 vs. S550.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Yup, that's a very nice way of putting it. Alternatively, just like the initial ask price by home builders and developers . . . which again has little relevance to subsequent sales whatsoever.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I guess they don't realize that anyone considering a car this pricey just might have a little financial savvy, eh?

    You are absolutely right. I will have to stop talking about the LS bargain then ;)
    Actually some specialized medical doctors, and established lawyers are the biggest pennies pinchers that I know. They all make the amounts of coins that luxury car makers going after :surprise:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You missed the fact that Merc and I were not talking about the current LS460 vs. S550.

    And apparently you missed the point that I am not here to discuss what you and Merc discussed. That would be pointless.

    And as I said in a prior post the current MB S Class just happens to be priced at a premium to a comparable LS and is selling like hotcakes without subsidized leases. Nope there are no games involved with that statement of mine.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,620
    like many consumers, I NEVER lease,

    I find that a provocative statement. I'd be interested in knowing how many people driving cars that sell for $40K+ buy them, as opposed to leasing.

    While this is the "I've already arrived" board, in the lesser "I'm still trying" boards (entry-level luxury performance sedans & luxury-performance sedans), it becomes clear quickly that the majority lease. Let's be charitable and go with the concept that it's all business-writeoff related. Either way, leasing is a way of life for those segments.

    Is it different here?
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I never lease myself. I keep my cars for a very long time. And based on my experiences of owning BMWs I tend to get good resale values when I decide to sell my cars. Also I have a honest and reasonable auto mechnanic that services/repairs my cars beyond their warranty periods

    Financially it makes sense for me to buy a car based on the fact that I really do like keeping my cars for long periods of time. You may call this nutty but I truly miss every single one of my old cars that I had sold (I wish I had a bigger garage)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And apparently you missed the point that I am not here to discuss what you and Merc discussed. That would be pointless.

    Really?? So who wrote this in post#22059:

    "Are there bargain lease deals for the new 07 S Class? Does such a thing even exist?
    Was not Merc discussing the hot selling S Class?"

    And as I said in a prior post the current MB S Class just happens to be priced at a premium to a comparable LS and is selling like hotcakes without subsidized leases.

    The current S class has been on the market for less than a year. The main competition, the new LS, has not even been fully propagated through the distribution channels. We are not born yesterday; haven't we seen this model cycle thing work before? Several times? "This time is diferent" are four of the most dangerous words in making forecasts, especially for someone who is familiar with the financial industry.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I will go will the option that gives me the lowest total cost over a period of 4-6 years. I paid cash for my slightly used GS, but leased my subie.
    My next car will be a HELC. Buy vs lease analysis will be done when I am ready to make the move.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OK thanks Doctor Doom and Boom,

    gotcha!

    Fate dictates that the new MB S model is doomed to be subsidized while the new LS model is going to boom without subsididies or price discounts.

    Thanks for your 20/20 future vision or should I say your historic rear view mirror vision :confuse:
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're wasting your time on that issue. We've been over this nonsense a jillion times before. Not everyone leases and no there aren't any cheapo lease deals for the new S-Class, but still it keeps getting repeated like a broken record.

    Forget it Dewey because in that imaginary world everyone leases and MSRP counts for nothing despite some board members stating that they actually like to buy and that the price of a fully loaded previous generation S was a deterrent. The real cheapo lease deal for the previous S came with the S350 and for the final 2 years of the S430/S500 models, yet we're to believe that MSRP never, ever plays a factor in sales.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Good advice Merc,

    I think I am going to take a break now.
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