As far as I could configure them I thought the prices were pretty close (within $1K). I didn't include the sport package for either one.
Now, mind you, I didn't compare feature by feature. eg. I think A4 has 12-way power seats for both driver and passenger. I'm not sure if the 325 is the same. Or if ESP is comparable the traction control system on the 325. Or if the standard stereo systems on the cars are comparable. Etc., Etc. So it could very well be that some of the standard features on the A4 are superior to those on the 325 which tips the value scale in favour of the Audi. I just thought the prices "in general" were close enough to warrant serious cross-shop consideration.
The ESP is not the same as traction control. ESP will slow you down if you corner too quickly and risk losing control, traction control will not.
I don't know about the other differences you mentioned though. I know the Audi has a 6-CD changer standard, and the BMW either has a single disc player or none at all standard.
The Audi seems to have a really good value equation though, from what I have read in the press recently. Also, does BMW include scheduled maintenance? I know Audi does, for 4 years/50K miles.
There is an all wheel drive BMW with a 3.0 liter engine it is the 330xi, this compares for the most part ("on paper" -- on-line) to the Audi with the 3.0 liter engine, the A4 3.0 quattro.
I went to both the BMW and Audi web sites (USA). I clicked on manual transmissions, all options, silver and leather -- the Audi had a line item for On*Star ($699), I clicked that too.
The price differences, then were apples to apples, BMW about 6,000USD more than the "comparable" Audi. I did not compare the Bimmer 325xi to the Audi A4 1.8t quattro, nor did I compare the 325xi to the A4 3.0 quattro. I assumed that the comparison was valid with 3 liter engines and standard normal German variations of options and option packages. The BMW is not insignificantly more money.
Some will argue that the BMW is better -- and I would say, ". . .for $6,000 more it should be."
I have to totally agree there! $6000 is alot of change. I don't see what's so great about BMWs either. Of course, I never have had a chance to open one up on a windy road either, where I hear they give their best performance.
Also, OnStar is that communications link thing that Audi has, incase you get a flat tire, locked out of the car, need directions, etc. Just in case you didn't know...
My co-worker has a 2002 A4 Quattro stick, and it's pretty sweet looking. It's silver with black leather. I just was talking to her, asking if she liked the car. She said it was ok, but she liked her old one better.
See, she had a 1998 A4 Quattro 2.8 stick when she started working here. She had to have the engine replaced in the car, and it was in the shop for over 2 months. Audi was really good with her case, they even gave her like $4000 off the car for adjusted value. After getting the car back, she said it didn't feel the same to her and she didn't trust it then.
She took the car to Carmax and sold it to them, for a good price. Then she took the cash she had, and got a 2002 A4. She still liked the first one better though, she said. She said she ended up paying less for the 2002 than she did for the 1998, with the money back and all.
I agree the 330xi is a more appropriate comparison to the A4 3.0. But I figured the significant price difference would cause many to cross-shop the 325xi instead. One thing though, even though on paper the 330 should be matched against the 3.0, I think the 330 will have a marked performance edge over the 3.0 and I suspect most people will consider the 330 a superior car. But like you said, for the difference in price.....
To my knowledge any dealer that treats a "foreign" customer (i.e. bought unit from another dealer) less than equally would violate the terms of their franchise agreement.
Now you might say that such a clause would be difficult to enforce but consider this. Most dealers make more from their service/parts departments than they do from low markup sales of new cars. That being the case they have every incentive to make new customers happy, and from my experience they do.
On the subject of ix vs. quattro, I've been told by a number of apparently knowledgeable people, including a BMW specialist that the quattro system is dynamically superior to the BMW ix system. In fact the quattro/4Motion system with it's ability to adapt instantly to traction changes is probably the best on-road awd system you can buy today.
RE: "To my knowledge any dealer that treats a "foreign" customer (i.e. bought unit from another dealer)less than equally would violate the terms of their franchise agreement."
I moved my 97 Z28 from WA to HI in 2000. I brought the car to the closest of 3 Chevy dealers on the island for service. The service rep told me they were too busy to service my car because they had to take care of their own buyers first. I contacted Chevy customer service and was told that there was nothing they could do. I spoke with GM's regional service manager who agreed to help. Two weeks later I got a letter from GM saying that the dealership was independently owned and operated so they could not intervene. Naturally, I was incredulous.
It is amazing that they would adhere to their policy so strictly as to not service a car that was purchased out of state (that is an Island for cryin' out loud). I can see you not getting a quick appointment or not getting a loaner car, but they actually flat out refused to service your car? Well, it was a GM dealership, so maybe they just already service anmd fix more cars than they could handle (I know it is a cheap shot, but I had to get it in:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
OK so I just brought my car in yesterday to the dealership that I bought the car from for an oil change and got a 2002 A4 1.8T CVT Amulet red with black interior and 1400 miles as the service loaner. Great looking car I must say and my coworkers kept complimenting on the color. The CVT definitely experiences the "delay" that most people were complaining about. I am suspecting two causes. First being the turbo lag before 1850rpm, and second being the intentional programming during initial acceleration to prevent spinning the front tires. Once the needle is south of 2500 rpm when you floor the gas, you can hear a slight chirp of front tires spinning and the ESP stopped it from doing so. Of course it took some getting used to the CVT tranny and it does provide good mpg figures and pretty instant acceleration on the highway. It also kicks down very smoothly without the jerking motions. The sunroof though, opens and closes a lot slower than my 2001.5. Dunno why. The center tunnel also protrudes more into the front driver and passenger leg area so that's a little bit annoying. Other than that, I like the additional rear legroom and the nice aluminum trim inside. Trunk is huge too. Handling in this non-sports suspension is a lot better than my 01.5 non-sports. I think it's largely due to the stiffer suspension and some due to the optional 16" rims and 215 tires it has versus my (pathetic) 15" rims and 205 tires. And did I say the Amulet red is AWESOME?
After putting in 100 miles on the car (!!) and returning it, I saw a 03 A4 1.8TQ with the optional $750 17" sport rims with the Pirelli P6 4 Seasons tires on them. Keep in mind it does not have the sports package and it shows because of the bigger wheel gap. Personally I do not think it's a good combo visually between the non sports and the 17" optional sports rims....but of course that might change after test driving. I checked the price of those 235/45/17 all season tires and they are a whopping $163/tire on Tirerack in C&D magazine. Ouch.
Oh by the way, the service at the dealership that I bought my car from is catching up to the one that's closer to my home which I didn't buy my car from. I don't know if it's because my own dealership just finished building those hanger-shaped buildings in anticipation to the 03 A8 debut.....I heard that only chosen dealerships with the new hanger style buildings will sell the new A8's and they need to raise their service levels to be able to service the new A8's. The one that's closer to my home already had that building as of Feb 01 so maybe their service level is up there already.
I know it's not the same car, but my 02 VW Jetta 1.8T has the VW sport suspension, and still has a tire gap with the 225/45/17 tires. I plan to get some sport springs, which (I hope) will also quell the body roll around sharp corners.
And my tires, Michelin Pilot Sport, are $184 each on TireRack.com. I punctured one beyond repair a couple of months ago, and the cheapest price from a garage (Kimmel, I think it was) was $213 for ONE tire! Goodyear wanted $325 for the same tire.
Looks like I'm not the only one who's complained about the intrusive center tunnel on the new A4s (post 4262). Too bad because I really want[ed] an S4 after my lease is up. Oh well.
Oh you gotta see the 2002/2003 A4 with the sports package. Virtually no tire gap. I know what the Jetta's sports pkg with the 17" wheels look like. That gap is big compared to the 02/03 A4.
Well yeah I know the Michelin Pilot Sports are expensive.....but the Pirelli P6 tires that the 17" wheel package the 03 A4 has (WITHOUT sports pkg) are all season tires.....so it's exactly my point that they cost almost as much as a ultra high performance Michelin Pilot Sports tire.
Is it correct that the A4 does not have any traction control system. If so, why? Would it be because the quattro system distributes power to any one of the 4 wheels, thus making traction control redundant?
ESP is traction control. ESP=Electronic Stability Control. The Quattro system does not slow down individual wheels like the ESP can. Normally each of the wheels get 25% of the power. Upon insufficient traction in any of the wheels, the Quattro system can send power to the wheels that grip. The ESP takes a further step by measuring a collection of parameters such as the yaw rate, steering direction and speed that you are supposed to go and if it does not match (i.e. sliding around), it will slow down individual wheels to "help" you stay on the right track.
ESP sounds like it is more skid control. Would it still activate to slow down individual wheels if those wheels start spinning but car is going in a straight line?
I guess part of the confusion (mine) stems from the fact the the BMW xi models come with both traction control and stability control.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with bodydouble in that stability control could be more accurately defined as "skid control." Traction control, on-the-other-hand, specifically deals with or aids in loss of friction during or upon acceleration.
Whereas ESP (stability control) deals more so with the lateral axis in keeping the car from skidding out of control, traction control specifically aids in the longitudinal axis of the vehicle's slippage upon or during acceleration.
Billy has a point in that ESP could be described as having a component of traction control imbedded in it's function but it does not have much effect in aiding traction upon acceleration from a dead stop, for instance. quattro, however, will have that function on an Audi but is it doing the same that traction control is doing on the xi?
Somebody with more technical knowledge than I have will have to answer on how --and the whys-- BMW incorporates its xi awd system with its DSC (Dynamic Stability Control --equivalent to Audi's ESP) and its ASC+T (Automatic Stability Control plus Traction) for as bodydouble states, they are both standard on the xi. And how does it compare technologically with Audi when it comes to traction specifications?
DL-- yeah! ...maybe I'll go with you to Germany to pick up our S4s!
Andy-- Yes, but IMO, reality says that you will still get treated better by your selling dealer. One example: there used to be a two month period waiting period to get into the local Audi service department. But if they determined that you were a "customer" of theirs, they'd get you in within a week after making an appointment. This dealer was also noted for giving their own "customers" little extras. Sure, they'd never admit that they were doing these things and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. But generally, I'd have to agree with your line of thinking.
vocus-- About the Jetta having the 180 hp engine and the Passat/A4 having 170 hp: I don't really think it has anything to do with whether it's transversely or longitudinally placed; because didn't the early model new-Jettas have the 170 hp engine (with the exact same specs as the current Passat/A4's)?
The number of things that an Audi has on it go way beyond traction control:
The fine print (Audis have):
Electronic vehicle systems such as anti-lock braking system (ABS), traction control (ASR), Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD), Electronic Differential Lock (EDL),Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP) are active safety features.
Couple the above electronic vehicle systems with quattro and the Audi suspension systems and you have almost every assist capability that is available today. Next up -- active headlights and electronic tail lights. Coming soon to an Audi near you.
By the way, a lot of this stuff is available on the AoA website.
An '02 costs out @ $35760, an '03 @ 37,325 or $1565 (+4%).
The culprit is the option packaging. You can't get the sunroof without getting the $2250 Premium package which to be fair throws in a lot of other options that would cost extra on an '02 if you wanted them (power seats, auto dimming mirrors and such.)
I am seriously considering a new A4 but not for another year or so and frankly these prices are discouraging. I may have to shop CPOs again. The downside of that is that I can't get the car exactly as I would like it but at these prices I have to give up some things I'd like to have like Metallic paint and full leather.
I'm unsure about the sport suspension. I've read that the new cars handle as well w/o sport suspension as the Gen Is with it. That's what I have and it handles very well. I'm concerned as well about the cost of 17" replacement tires (cuz awds eat tires) as well as snows.
Kauk0dy-Amulet Red looks like a medium metallic red @ audiusa.com but I see there's no $450 charge for it. Is it in fact the bright red that I saw on a new A4 recently? That was a great color.
andys120: On the contrary, for the Canadian market, an optioned-up A4 cost about $1K LESS than an equivalent '02. That's one reason I may move up my purchase plan to maybe end of the '03 MY. Actually I would love to do in now, but I would take a very painful depreciation hit on my 2-yr-old CL-S. Depreciation spread out over 3 years or more is much less painful.
No kidding. You can't even order the Avant 3.0 (at least here in CA). From what the dealers tell me, they need an "allowance" from the manufacturer which they're not getting. One dealer said that avants are big in europe and that the cabs are taking up the rest of the 3.0 engines. So if you want a 3.0 you'll have to take what there is (which I'm not willing to pay for). I'm torn between getting an available sedan, waiting (perhaps in vain) for a 3.0 avant to show up without all of the packages, or just blowing the whole thing off and getting a Lexus IS 300 Sportcross (2002) at $2500 under invoice. Of course, if I wait any longer the Sportcross will be gone. Damn.
Yes amulet red is the "spicy" red on the B6 02- A4's. It is not a metallic color hence not the $450 surcharge. If you go to a dealership and look close on the amulet red paint you cannot see the little metal particles in the paint. Hence no surcharge either in the white and black paints but surcharges on volcano black and big time surcharge on pearl white on the B5 96-01 A4's....well OK the pearl white is a different kind of paint too which is gorgeous.
Don't see many of them here in Chicago.....in fact I don't think I have even seen one on the road here. The cargo area is not that big though. It's much smaller than that in the Avant.
on Amulet Red, the AOA website makes it look like a purplish metallic red. The actual color is perfect for that car and it doesn't even cost extra. What colors do you guys like on the A4?
I just saw my first crystal blue A4 today! ...they must be pretty rare. I like it! *thumbs up* If I were to order an A4, I might choose that color. Some were saying over on AudiWorld when the E8 was first being introduced that crystal blue was a sisssy color but I think it looks sharp no matter.
And I must've been spacing out when I posted my last message for I remember talking to my dealer's service advisor about this a few months ago and it entirely slipped my mind until Mark brought it up.
Audi's ESP integrates the following components:
ABS
EBD
EDL
ASR
ABS = Antilock Braking System: Anti-lock brakes. We all know about this.
EBD = Electronic Brake-force Distribution: "Ensures maximum braking performance at the front and rear wheels and under normal conditions it prevents the rear-end from breaking away because of over-braking. The system counteracts 'fading' as a result of overheating."
EDL = Electronic Differential Locks: "Permits smooth, comfortable starts on uneven road surfaces. If a wheel starts to spin, EDL brakes it as necessary so that power is transmitted to the wheel with the better traction. EDL reduces tire wear and works up to about 25 mph (quattro®: up to about 50 mph). EDL is part of the Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) and Traction Control (ASR) systems."
ASR = Acceleration Slip Regulation: Traction Control. Bosch patented.
So yes, Audi's ESP --traction control and brake assist programs-- appears to be as seamless and proficient as the BMW's technology in this arena.
bodydouble EBD (which is integrated with ESP) is what you are calling Brake Assist.
Here is what is does, in part:
based on the quickness of your foot on the brake pedal, the computer determines if you "meant" for this particular application of the brakes to be considered a need to stop as quickly as possible.
without this brain helping with the braking duties, the only way to get maximum braking would be to press on the brake pedal with a force exceeding 80 pounds of pressure.
Ok Ok so why does the computer need to help you -- you know when it is an emergency.
It was discovered that the vast majority of drivers who have ABS brakes use them improperly (in panic situations) and that the ABS was actually increasing the stopping distance over conventional brakes (BTW ABS never actually was intended to shorten stopping distances per se -- ABS was intended to INCREASE the control over the stopping by allowing the car to continue to be responsive to the steering inputs of the driver; with ABS it is possible to turn the vehicle even though it is at maximum braking -- with conventional brakes, the wheels lock, the tires slide, the rubber on the tire becomes molten and the car no longer responds to steering inputs from the driver. It is impossible to steer a wheel that is not rotating, i.e.).
Here is what gave birth to brake assist:
1. driver sees situation demanding immediate braking action 2. driver slams on brakes -- and with conventional ABS the brake pedal immediately transmits a chattering or buzzing sensation to the driver's foot. 3. most people do not regularly and or frequently experience this sensation (which is a good thing) -- and most people immediately stop applying pressure at the moment the chattering and buzzing starts (they must figure that the brakes are doing the best they can at the moment ABS engages -- which, BTW is way way wrong). 4. the car stops or hits something and the driver assumes that all that he/she could do was done because "after all, the ABS engaged"
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Maximum braking effectivity is caused by maximum pressure on the brake pedal. When I went through ABS braking training (4 times in Audis and once in a Porsche), the instructors told us to "imagine that our mission when pressing the brake pedal in a car equipped with ABS was to literally bend the brake pedal." Most people actually stop applying additional pressure at the instant ABS engages -- which reduces braking effectiveness.
According to my instructors, most people actually are "startled" by the ABS sound and sensation and some folks will actually release pressure on the brake pedal when the ABS kicks in -- which is exactly the opposite of what should happen.
The great and powerful tool -- ABS -- was actually providing control and increasing stopping distances -- so the ABS positives were somewhat being offset by the "pilot error" negatives.
Technical solution: brake assist. Brake assist "assumes" that the speed at which the brakes are applied is an indication of "how hard" the driver "intended" to press upon the pedal. So, using a fairly sophisticated program "helps" the driver apply more pressure to the brakes than he/she is literally applying.
Hi markcinci, this may be just a difference in terminology but in Japanese car lingo EBD just refers to electronic reallocation of brake force between the wheels depending on load whereas "brake assist" refers to what you've described, ie. electronic assist in panic stop in an emergency. Now, it could be that Audi has included both function under EBD whereas Japanese manufacturers tend to list them as separate features.
Your informative post is much appreciated nonetheless.
All Audis INTEGRATE the following functions (and when possible I will use TLA's):
ABS,ESP,EBD,Traction Control (ASR), and brake assist.
Based on what my Audi driving experience instructors told me, ABS came first (my first Audi to have in -- in the US -- was a 1987 5000 CS turbro quattro), followed by enhancements to ABS which sometimes go by the name ABS II, ABS III -- I think we are at ABS V, which seems to be part of a grand computer progam that uses the wheel sensors (from ABS), steering wheel position sensors, slip and pitch and yaw sensors to integrate the functions (above) under the egis of ESP+brake assist. Obviously, it is so much more. And, as I mentioned, when coupled with quattro (and when the RS6's suspension + the allroad's air suspension components are married and pushed down the range) becomes, IMHO, virtually an unbeatable combination.
Next up SHOULD be, to put this amazing marriage of technology in an Audi that has 50-50 weight distribution (all current Audis are nose heavy, which of course contributes to their tendancy to understeer).
My question wasn't meant to insinuate that you did it. And besides I didn't think my post contained anything off-colour like I tend to post every once in a long while!
Probably was software problem. For a while yesterday I couldn't post anything.
Hi everyone !! I have been contemplating very hard in purchasing between an A4 Quattro and a BMW 325i. BMW feels better handling but I can get more for my money on an Audi. My only concern is this so called maintenance problems with the Audi which varies from instrumentation warning signals going on or at one point smoke coming out from the engine which in both cases the cars were brand new.
Please help me have a peace of mind in purchasing an Audi, a huge upgrade from my 92 Civic EX
How about my personal experiences with my 01.5 A4 to give you some peace of mind? I bought it brand new on Feb 01 and up to date I put in 25300 miles with zero instrumentation warning signals nor smoke coming out from engine. My only fixes so far are stuck (or slow to move) trunk shocks and a blown Bose speaker which are minor and won't get you stranded on the highway. My friend's 02 BMW 325ci got a couple of electrical problems that he needed to bring it in to fix.
My point? You heard about all these people bringing up problems that they had.....of course, because if they don't have any problems, they won't post a thread on AudiWorld.com saying "OK another day with no problems.". Also keep in mind on AudiWorld.com, they are modifying their rides to handle better and perform better. Now I gotta agree their rides are a lot sweeter than mine, but I cannot say for sure what the reliability will be in the long run. There are always tradeoffs.
Also, it's really about luck. Maybe the problem vehicles were made on a Friday afternoon when Hans was a little fed up with Heineken. There is no one brand out there that GUARANTEES zero problems, nor there is one brand out there that GUARANTEES tons of problems. I came from a 96 Honda Accord LX and it's a bigger step for me considering it's an LX and your Civic is an EX. Like everyone said, once you switch to a German car, it's no turning back cuz they're so much fun to drive. True that the average Honda/Toyota has less problems, but I'm willing to trade some peace of mind with tons of driving fun.
I live here in Chicago and Quattro HELPS definitely in the winter. Like you said, the Audi is more bang for the money. I was considering exactly these two when I bought the A4. last yr. The way I configured a 01 325ci and a 01.5 A4 1.8T w/Quattro, the Audi was still $5k cheaper. And the A4 has Quattro. Once you attend an Audi Quattro Challenge, or an Audi driving school, you will realize what Quattro can do for you.
No regrets getting the Audi now whatsoever. Happy motoring so far.
Billy is right - you can't rely on forum posts to get a representative sampling of overall owner satisfaction or reliability. It's just not statistically correct. Even when people put up posts like the above ones where they had one personal experience that changed their minds about something - it doesn't make any sense. One or two (or three) experiences out of tens of thousands are meaningless. You have to rely on brand reputation and things like J.D Power ratings, etc. and what the Edmunds (and other publications) editors say about the brand or model.
I test drove a 325i and xi, and an A4 3.0 CVT and 3.0 Quattro. The BMW's did handle nicely, but they failed in power, interior design (cheesy Escort-ish exposed cup holders), value, noise (the BMW tuned exhaust to too loud for me) and standard options. The Audi handles great, rides like a dream, and the Quattro is well known to be second-to-none. I ended up spending $100 more on an A4 than a 325xi I was looking at, but I got a mile long list of extra equipment (leather, heat seats, xenon, Bose, sunroof, etc.) and better standard specs (220hp vs 175hp, etc.).
Plus Audi's don't seem to have the "BMW Jerk" complex that the Bimmer onwers (unfortunately) suffer from. But, in the end, you can't go wrong with either one!
Although I have been browsing the forum for some time now, I am a new member. I just purchased a 2003 Brilliant Black a4 fully loaded with the Ebony interior (Quattro, Tiptronic), and it's beautiful. I just wanted to thank everyone on the board for all the indirect help they've given me -It's really made me feel comfortable with buying my first car. I am in Bloomington Indiana, and the Dealer I went to was the local dealer, and they really were excellent there. I got a 2003 a4 with premium package, sports, bose, cold weather, xenons for $50 UNDER invoice - granted I've been negociating for about 5 mths, and I'm happy the way everything has worked out. I take delivery of the car on Monday, as it just came into town today morning. I'm quite excited! Thanks alot guys, and I hope to be participating more often!:) Mishal
Mishal-- Congratuations! ...but $50 under invoice??? That's great! How did you do that? Not that I don't believe you but I wouldn't think that there are any manufacturer-to-dealer incentives on a 2003; maybe a 2002 they'd let go at invoice but a 2003? ...that's just great negotiating on your part. I'd have to think the dealer made very little money if any on your deal. I'll definitely consider going to Bloomingdale to buy my next Audi and have it shipped back because here in the NW, anything under about $1,300-1,400 OVER invoice would literally be considered a steal. Did you get a 1.8T or a 3.0?
Frederick-- Dave and Billy have it right. And where did you hear that A4s have "so called maintenance problems?" Gee, that's just not true. As was said, any new car can have its malfunctions. Yes, we've discussed periodically on this forum about Audis not being as reliable as Japanese cars but to imply that they have an inordinate number of problems compared to other brands is just not true.
Like Billy, my '01.5 has had no major issues at all. I was worried about post-delivery problems when I purchased mine for I dealt with a dealer almost 100 miles away from my residence. I expressed this concern to my salesperson and he assured me both before and at the time of delivery that my car would be perfect and wouldn't need any post-delivery adjustments. A bold statement to make, I thought at the time. How could he be so positive that my car would be perfect as he made no hesitation upon stating this. When I questioned him on it further, he laughed and backed down a bit and told me that he was 99% sure I'd have a "perfect" car. He went on to explain that Audi requires its dealers to do an extensive and extremely thorough pre-delivery inspection and that their dealership went extra steps beyond that to do their own set of inspection items that require extra test drives by the technician doing the inspection to assure that the car meets all their pre-delivery requirements. He told me that it is very rare for one of their Audis to come back immediately after delivery for something which needs adjusting or replacement. He was right... my car was, for practical purposes, "perfect" upon delivery and didn't require a laundry list of things that had to be taken care of afterwards.
Any domestic car I've purchased always had a long list of things that had to be corrected, adjusted, fixed or replaced immediately after delivery. Even my beloved VW had a nagging issue which I had to go back and forth to the dealer numerous times before they fixed it right.
And remember, you have the Audi Advantage to ease your mind for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. Anything which might go wrong will be fixed and all adjustments are covered "b2b" which most manufacturers only allow during the first twelve months. If any repair requires the car to be kept overnight, Audi will reimburse the dealer to provide you with a rental car if your dealer doesn't already have a service loaner policy of their own. But so does BMW, I guess, so disregard this paragraph. *lol*
pat-- I must've missed something. And bodydouble was being obnoxious in another forum? *heh* Which brings up the point: is TH going to bring back the "And here's what I've been saying" section in one's profile? I really liked that feature.
surely you're not implying that I've behaved badly elsewhere?! My feelings are hurt! :P
Seriously though, I very rarely initiate an "exchange". But I don't like to stand idly by when someone takes an unwarranted shot at me or someone else. And this topic has been totally devoid of the juvenile baseless bashing and insults that seem to permeate some of the others. People here just seem more objective, and they have been more than helpful in answering any of my questions, of which I am very appreciative.
Comments
Now, mind you, I didn't compare feature by feature. eg. I think A4 has 12-way power seats for both driver and passenger. I'm not sure if the 325 is the same. Or if ESP is comparable the traction control system on the 325. Or if the standard stereo systems on the cars are comparable. Etc., Etc. So it could very well be that some of the standard features on the A4 are superior to those on the 325 which tips the value scale in favour of the Audi. I just thought the prices "in general" were close enough to warrant serious cross-shop consideration.
I don't know about the other differences you mentioned though. I know the Audi has a 6-CD changer standard, and the BMW either has a single disc player or none at all standard.
The Audi seems to have a really good value equation though, from what I have read in the press recently. Also, does BMW include scheduled maintenance? I know Audi does, for 4 years/50K miles.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
I went to both the BMW and Audi web sites (USA). I clicked on manual transmissions, all options, silver and leather -- the Audi had a line item for On*Star ($699), I clicked that too.
The price differences, then were apples to apples, BMW about 6,000USD more than the "comparable" Audi. I did not compare the Bimmer 325xi to the Audi A4 1.8t quattro, nor did I compare the 325xi to the A4 3.0 quattro. I assumed that the comparison was valid with 3 liter engines and standard normal German variations of options and option packages. The BMW is not insignificantly more money.
Some will argue that the BMW is better -- and I would say, ". . .for $6,000 more it should be."
Also, OnStar is that communications link thing that Audi has, incase you get a flat tire, locked out of the car, need directions, etc. Just in case you didn't know...
See, she had a 1998 A4 Quattro 2.8 stick when she started working here. She had to have the engine replaced in the car, and it was in the shop for over 2 months. Audi was really good with her case, they even gave her like $4000 off the car for adjusted value. After getting the car back, she said it didn't feel the same to her and she didn't trust it then.
She took the car to Carmax and sold it to them, for a good price. Then she took the cash she had, and got a 2002 A4. She still liked the first one better though, she said. She said she ended up paying less for the 2002 than she did for the 1998, with the money back and all.
customer (i.e. bought unit from another dealer)
less than equally would violate the terms of their franchise agreement.
Now you might say that such a clause would be difficult to enforce but consider this. Most dealers make more from their service/parts departments than they do from low markup sales of new cars. That being the case they have every incentive to make new customers happy, and from my experience they do.
On the subject of ix vs. quattro, I've been told by a number of apparently knowledgeable people, including a BMW specialist that the quattro system is dynamically superior to the BMW ix system. In fact the quattro/4Motion system with it's ability to adapt instantly to traction changes is probably the best on-road awd system you can buy today.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I moved my 97 Z28 from WA to HI in 2000. I brought the car to the closest of 3 Chevy dealers on the island for service. The service rep told me they were too busy to service my car because they had to take care of their own buyers first. I contacted Chevy customer service and was told that there was nothing they could do. I spoke with GM's regional service manager who agreed to help. Two weeks later I got a letter from GM saying that the dealership was independently owned and operated so they could not intervene. Naturally, I was incredulous.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
After putting in 100 miles on the car (!!) and returning it, I saw a 03 A4 1.8TQ with the optional $750 17" sport rims with the Pirelli P6 4 Seasons tires on them. Keep in mind it does not have the sports package and it shows because of the bigger wheel gap. Personally I do not think it's a good combo visually between the non sports and the 17" optional sports rims....but of course that might change after test driving. I checked the price of those 235/45/17 all season tires and they are a whopping $163/tire on Tirerack in C&D magazine. Ouch.
All in all, a good day yesterday.
Billy
Any coincidence? I dunno.
Billy
And my tires, Michelin Pilot Sport, are $184 each on TireRack.com. I punctured one beyond repair a couple of months ago, and the cheapest price from a garage (Kimmel, I think it was) was $213 for ONE tire! Goodyear wanted $325 for the same tire.
Well yeah I know the Michelin Pilot Sports are expensive.....but the Pirelli P6 tires that the 17" wheel package the 03 A4 has (WITHOUT sports pkg) are all season tires.....so it's exactly my point that they cost almost as much as a ultra high performance Michelin Pilot Sports tire.
Billy
Billy
Sport wheels, look great but i do not like the P6 tires ! the sidewalls look so tall..something like Yokos AVS DB would look much better.
DL
I guess part of the confusion (mine) stems from the fact the the BMW xi models come with both traction control and stability control.
Whereas ESP (stability control) deals more so with the lateral axis in keeping the car from skidding out of control, traction control specifically aids in the longitudinal axis of the vehicle's slippage upon or during acceleration.
Billy has a point in that ESP could be described as having a component of traction control imbedded in it's function but it does not have much effect in aiding traction upon acceleration from a dead stop, for instance. quattro, however, will have that function on an Audi but is it doing the same that traction control is doing on the xi?
Somebody with more technical knowledge than I have will have to answer on how --and the whys-- BMW incorporates its xi awd system with its DSC (Dynamic Stability Control --equivalent to Audi's ESP) and its ASC+T (Automatic Stability Control plus Traction) for as bodydouble states, they are both standard on the xi. And how does it compare technologically with Audi when it comes to traction specifications?
DL-- yeah! ...maybe I'll go with you to Germany to pick up our S4s!
Andy-- Yes, but IMO, reality says that you will still get treated better by your selling dealer. One example: there used to be a two month period waiting period to get into the local Audi service department. But if they determined that you were a "customer" of theirs, they'd get you in within a week after making an appointment. This dealer was also noted for giving their own "customers" little extras. Sure, they'd never admit that they were doing these things and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. But generally, I'd have to agree with your line of thinking.
vocus-- About the Jetta having the 180 hp engine and the Passat/A4 having 170 hp: I don't really think it has anything to do with whether it's transversely or longitudinally placed; because didn't the early model new-Jettas have the 170 hp engine (with the exact same specs as the current Passat/A4's)?
--'rocco
If you are nearby give it a try, it should be an entertaining race.
The fine print (Audis have):
Electronic vehicle systems such as anti-lock braking system (ABS), traction control (ASR), Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD), Electronic Differential Lock (EDL),Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP) are active safety features.
Couple the above electronic vehicle systems with quattro and the Audi suspension systems and you have almost every assist capability that is available today. Next up -- active headlights and electronic tail lights. Coming soon to an Audi near you.
By the way, a lot of this stuff is available on the AoA website.
The base price @$33,340 is only $200 more than an '02 for a 3.0/Tip but start putting options in and the price jumps dramatically.
Iran the following thru the configurator-
-heated seats (f/r)
-Power sunroof
-Denim Blue Metallic paint
-Leather seating surfaces
An '02 costs out @ $35760, an '03 @ 37,325 or $1565 (+4%).
The culprit is the option packaging. You can't get the sunroof without getting the $2250 Premium package which to be fair throws in a lot of other options that would cost extra on an '02 if you wanted them (power seats, auto dimming mirrors and such.)
I am seriously considering a new A4 but not for another year or so and frankly these prices are discouraging. I may have to shop CPOs again. The downside of that is that I can't get the car exactly as I would like it but at these prices I have to give up some things I'd like to have like
Metallic paint and full leather.
I'm unsure about the sport suspension. I've read that the new cars handle as well w/o sport suspension as the Gen Is with it. That's what I have and it handles very well. I'm concerned as well about the cost of 17" replacement tires (cuz awds eat tires) as well as snows.
Kauk0dy-Amulet Red looks like a medium metallic red @ audiusa.com but I see there's no $450 charge for it. Is it in fact the bright red that I saw on a new A4 recently? That was a great color.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
andys120: On the contrary, for the Canadian market, an optioned-up A4 cost about $1K LESS than an equivalent '02. That's one reason I may move up my purchase plan to maybe end of the '03 MY. Actually I would love to do in now, but I would take a very painful depreciation hit on my 2-yr-old CL-S. Depreciation spread out over 3 years or more is much less painful.
Billy
Billy
ABS
ASR
EBD
EDL
and
ESP.
It probably has some other TLA's, I just can't think of them right now.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
And I must've been spacing out when I posted my last message for I remember talking to my dealer's service advisor about this a few months ago and it entirely slipped my mind until Mark brought it up.
Audi's ESP integrates the following components:
ABS
EBD
EDL
ASR
ABS = Antilock Braking System: Anti-lock brakes. We all know about this.
EBD = Electronic Brake-force Distribution: "Ensures maximum braking performance at the front and rear wheels and under normal conditions it prevents the rear-end from breaking away because of over-braking. The system counteracts 'fading' as a result of overheating."
EDL = Electronic Differential Locks: "Permits smooth, comfortable starts on uneven road surfaces. If a wheel starts to spin, EDL brakes it as necessary so that power is transmitted to the wheel with the better traction. EDL reduces tire wear and works up to about 25 mph (quattro®: up to about 50 mph). EDL is part of the Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) and Traction Control (ASR) systems."
ASR = Acceleration Slip Regulation: Traction Control. Bosch patented.
So yes, Audi's ESP --traction control and brake assist programs-- appears to be as seamless and proficient as the BMW's technology in this arena.
--'rocco
Here is what is does, in part:
based on the quickness of your foot on the brake pedal, the computer determines if you "meant" for this particular application of the brakes to be considered a need to stop as quickly as possible.
without this brain helping with the braking duties, the only way to get maximum braking would be to press on the brake pedal with a force exceeding 80 pounds of pressure.
Ok Ok so why does the computer need to help you -- you know when it is an emergency.
It was discovered that the vast majority of drivers who have ABS brakes use them improperly (in panic situations) and that the ABS was actually increasing the stopping distance over conventional brakes (BTW ABS never actually was intended to shorten stopping distances per se -- ABS was intended to INCREASE the control over the stopping by allowing the car to continue to be responsive to the steering inputs of the driver; with ABS it is possible to turn the vehicle even though it is at maximum braking -- with conventional brakes, the wheels lock, the tires slide, the rubber on the tire becomes molten and the car no longer responds to steering inputs from the driver. It is impossible to steer a wheel that is not rotating, i.e.).
Here is what gave birth to brake assist:
1. driver sees situation demanding immediate braking action
2. driver slams on brakes -- and with conventional ABS the brake pedal immediately transmits a chattering or buzzing sensation to the driver's foot.
3. most people do not regularly and or frequently experience this sensation (which is a good thing) -- and most people immediately stop applying pressure at the moment the chattering and buzzing starts (they must figure that the brakes are doing the best they can at the moment ABS engages -- which, BTW is way way wrong).
4. the car stops or hits something and the driver assumes that all that he/she could do was done because "after all, the ABS engaged"
======
Maximum braking effectivity is caused by maximum pressure on the brake pedal. When I went through ABS braking training (4 times in Audis and once in a Porsche), the instructors told us to "imagine that our mission when pressing the brake pedal in a car equipped with ABS was to literally bend the brake pedal." Most people actually stop applying additional pressure at the instant ABS engages -- which reduces braking effectiveness.
According to my instructors, most people actually are "startled" by the ABS sound and sensation and some folks will actually release pressure on the brake pedal when the ABS kicks in -- which is exactly the opposite of what should happen.
The great and powerful tool -- ABS -- was actually providing control and increasing stopping distances -- so the ABS positives were somewhat being offset by the "pilot error" negatives.
Technical solution: brake assist. Brake assist "assumes" that the speed at which the brakes are applied is an indication of "how hard" the driver "intended" to press upon the pedal. So, using a fairly sophisticated program "helps" the driver apply more pressure to the brakes than he/she is literally applying.
Brake assist protects us from ourselves!
Your informative post is much appreciated nonetheless.
We had a number of problems last night. Maybe that had something to do with it?
ABS,ESP,EBD,Traction Control (ASR), and brake assist.
Based on what my Audi driving experience instructors told me, ABS came first (my first Audi to have in -- in the US -- was a 1987 5000 CS turbro quattro), followed by enhancements to ABS which sometimes go by the name ABS II, ABS III -- I think we are at ABS V, which seems to be part of a grand computer progam that uses the wheel sensors (from ABS), steering wheel position sensors, slip and pitch and yaw sensors to integrate the functions (above) under the egis of ESP+brake assist. Obviously, it is so much more. And, as I mentioned, when coupled with quattro (and when the RS6's suspension + the allroad's air suspension components are married and pushed down the range) becomes, IMHO, virtually an unbeatable combination.
Next up SHOULD be, to put this amazing marriage of technology in an Audi that has 50-50 weight distribution (all current Audis are nose heavy, which of course contributes to their tendancy to understeer).
Probably was software problem. For a while yesterday I couldn't post anything.
Please help me have a peace of mind in purchasing an Audi, a huge upgrade from my 92 Civic EX
My point? You heard about all these people bringing up problems that they had.....of course, because if they don't have any problems, they won't post a thread on AudiWorld.com saying "OK another day with no problems.". Also keep in mind on AudiWorld.com, they are modifying their rides to handle better and perform better. Now I gotta agree their rides are a lot sweeter than mine, but I cannot say for sure what the reliability will be in the long run. There are always tradeoffs.
Also, it's really about luck. Maybe the problem vehicles were made on a Friday afternoon when Hans was a little fed up with Heineken. There is no one brand out there that GUARANTEES zero problems, nor there is one brand out there that GUARANTEES tons of problems. I came from a 96 Honda Accord LX and it's a bigger step for me considering it's an LX and your Civic is an EX. Like everyone said, once you switch to a German car, it's no turning back cuz they're so much fun to drive. True that the average Honda/Toyota has less problems, but I'm willing to trade some peace of mind with tons of driving fun.
I live here in Chicago and Quattro HELPS definitely in the winter. Like you said, the Audi is more bang for the money. I was considering exactly these two when I bought the A4. last yr. The way I configured a 01 325ci and a 01.5 A4 1.8T w/Quattro, the Audi was still $5k cheaper. And the A4 has Quattro. Once you attend an Audi Quattro Challenge, or an Audi driving school, you will realize what Quattro can do for you.
No regrets getting the Audi now whatsoever. Happy motoring so far.
Billy
I test drove a 325i and xi, and an A4 3.0 CVT and 3.0 Quattro. The BMW's did handle nicely, but they failed in power, interior design (cheesy Escort-ish exposed cup holders), value, noise (the BMW tuned exhaust to too loud for me) and standard options. The Audi handles great, rides like a dream, and the Quattro is well known to be second-to-none. I ended up spending $100 more on an A4 than a 325xi I was looking at, but I got a mile long list of extra equipment (leather, heat seats, xenon, Bose, sunroof, etc.) and better standard specs (220hp vs 175hp, etc.).
Plus Audi's don't seem to have the "BMW Jerk" complex that the Bimmer onwers (unfortunately) suffer from. But, in the end, you can't go wrong with either one!
Dave
Perhaps the manners you are displaying here will follow you around to other topics?
Although I have been browsing the forum for some time now, I am a new member.
I just purchased a 2003 Brilliant Black a4 fully loaded with the Ebony interior (Quattro, Tiptronic), and it's beautiful. I just wanted to thank everyone on the board for all the indirect help they've given me -It's really made me feel comfortable with buying my first car. I am in Bloomington Indiana, and the Dealer I went to was the local dealer, and they really were excellent there. I got a 2003 a4 with premium package, sports, bose, cold weather, xenons for $50 UNDER invoice - granted I've been negociating for about 5 mths, and I'm happy the way everything has worked out.
I take delivery of the car on Monday, as it just came into town today morning. I'm quite excited!
Thanks alot guys, and I hope to be participating more often!:)
Mishal
Frederick-- Dave and Billy have it right. And where did you hear that A4s have "so called maintenance problems?" Gee, that's just not true. As was said, any new car can have its malfunctions. Yes, we've discussed periodically on this forum about Audis not being as reliable as Japanese cars but to imply that they have an inordinate number of problems compared to other brands is just not true.
Like Billy, my '01.5 has had no major issues at all. I was worried about post-delivery problems when I purchased mine for I dealt with a dealer almost 100 miles away from my residence. I expressed this concern to my salesperson and he assured me both before and at the time of delivery that my car would be perfect and wouldn't need any post-delivery adjustments. A bold statement to make, I thought at the time. How could he be so positive that my car would be perfect as he made no hesitation upon stating this. When I questioned him on it further, he laughed and backed down a bit and told me that he was 99% sure I'd have a "perfect" car. He went on to explain that Audi requires its dealers to do an extensive and extremely thorough pre-delivery inspection and that their dealership went extra steps beyond that to do their own set of inspection items that require extra test drives by the technician doing the inspection to assure that the car meets all their pre-delivery requirements. He told me that it is very rare for one of their Audis to come back immediately after delivery for something which needs adjusting or replacement. He was right... my car was, for practical purposes, "perfect" upon delivery and didn't require a laundry list of things that had to be taken care of afterwards.
Any domestic car I've purchased always had a long list of things that had to be corrected, adjusted, fixed or replaced immediately after delivery. Even my beloved VW had a nagging issue which I had to go back and forth to the dealer numerous times before they fixed it right.
And remember, you have the Audi Advantage to ease your mind for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. Anything which might go wrong will be fixed and all adjustments are covered "b2b" which most manufacturers only allow during the first twelve months. If any repair requires the car to be kept overnight, Audi will reimburse the dealer to provide you with a rental car if your dealer doesn't already have a service loaner policy of their own. But so does BMW, I guess, so disregard this paragraph. *lol*
pat-- I must've missed something. And bodydouble was being obnoxious in another forum? *heh* Which brings up the point: is TH going to bring back the "And here's what I've been saying" section in one's profile? I really liked that feature.
--'rocco
Seriously though, I very rarely initiate an "exchange". But I don't like to stand idly by when someone takes an unwarranted shot at me or someone else. And this topic has been totally devoid of the juvenile baseless bashing and insults that seem to permeate some of the others. People here just seem more objective, and they have been more than helpful in answering any of my questions, of which I am very appreciative.