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Comments
(sorry for the OT diversion, folks - carry on)
Yeah, its a 1.8T not a 3.0. I'm quite serious about the cost of the car. The dealer here is Royal Audi, and they are quite good. They've given me a good deal on the car, now lets see if they back it up with good service.
Mishal
Enjoy your car!
Billy
I'm really excited about this upcoming winter. I want to see what the Quattro is like in the snow. I don't remember ever having this much anticipation for winter. Maybe the new ski equipment I bought has something to do with it.
PS - I haven't been on here in a while. Is it me, or did verozahl change his name to mtypex? If not, they must be brothers.
Oh yeah I was anticipating winter last yr around this time too. I wasn't disappointed when I can get going in front of a red light and everybody was behind me by about 10 car lengths. Just remember Quattro alone doesn't give you additional traction when you brake!
Billy
And yes, for what Audi charges for their Xenon option, it is well worth the money; a downright bargain at $500 (msrp). I don't think anybody will disagree with that ...unless they don't believe in xenons to begin with. Most of us truly believe that they are an essential part of the comprehensive safety package.
Matt-- Using the Edmunds calculator on the car configured the way you described, I came up an invoice price of $27,092. So let's say you could get it at $1,500 over invoice (carsdirect.com's price in the SoCal area), that would put the price at $28,592. Add the 10.25% tax, and that would put it at $31,522.68 (assuming my math is correct).
Since I'd have to believe that you could do much better than $1,500 over invoice, I'd suspect that you could get pretty close to the $31,000 figure that you're shooting for. The 31,522.68 figure that I calculated is the absolute maximum you should pay ...don't pay any more than that!
I'm assuming when you said "LA" you meant Los Angeles and not Louisiana? ...the figures I mentioned are for SoCal and not LA the state.
If you scroll back a year to a year and a half ago on this forum and a one called "A4 pricing," we had some pretty good discussions on negotiating techniques. Also, TownHall has some other forums dealing with this subject where some salespeople actually participate. You can pick up some really interesting and fascinating information from these discussions.
A good site I like to recommend is http://www.carbuyingtips.com/. You'll also be able to garner lots of good negotiating techniques from that site.
Good luck to both of you and keep us informed.
--'rocco
p.s. et.al.-- sorry for referring to Bloomington as Bloomingdale. :P
p.s.s. pat-- did you see my question a few posts ago?
Brian
I had a 1996 Cavalier that I bought used. The car used to cut off for no apparent reason, and almost got me into accidents several times. The dash also squeaked, the front strut went, the engine and airbag computers had to be reprogrammed, the back brakes had to be worked on 4 times. It was just a lemon. And this car was 3 years old (bought in 1999) with 31,051 miles on it when I got it. I checked the Carfax too, and it was never in any accidents or anything either. I eventually traded it for a 1999 Protege DX, because the car went out of warranty, and I got tired of budgeting for a rental car once or twice a month when it was in the shop.
Believe it or not, the best car I had was my first, a 1988 Dodge Aries K for which I paid $400. I had to get the brakes redone all around, which was cheap at the time because I took it to a shop my job dealt with (I was a fleet asst. manager). The car ran fine, even with 109K miles on it, for 4 months. Then some dummy ran a stop sign and killed my baby.
Was that the one that Lee Iacocca (SP?) proclaimed if you can find a better car then buy it!?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Thanks so much for the comments. Sorry that i did not mention clearly about my location, but you have made a correct guess. Again thanks for the advice as it does help alot.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/consumeraffairs/resources/lemon13.html
What I found particularly interesting is this statement: "What tends to make the biggest difference in whether a request is filed, Corning said, is the way a dealership treats a customer."
If you're interested: click here for The Seattle Times article of October 4th.
pat-- Thank you. Sorry to have bothered you.
Matt-- You're welcome. Let us know how it goes.
--'rocco
The interior was pretty nice though.
As David said, aftermarket packages will not have the auto-levelers. But what I consider even more important is that it will cost you more than double to have them added later as aftermarket. Remember, factory xenons msrp @ $500 but should net out somewhere around $450-480 as part of the new car. With aftermarket, you'll end up spending close to $1,000 after installation costs are added in --unless you try to DIY. And if you DIY, sometimes it's a headache. Just read some threads over on AudiWorld to see what I mean. Even after they're installed, I've read many reports of aftermarket systems being unreliable. I read an example somewhere where someone actually had his dealer convert the headlighsts over to xenon using factory parts (auto-leveler included) and it ended up costing him close to $2,000!? *sheesh*
Plus, if you get them on the car from the factory, they're covered under the Audi Advantage (b2b warranty). As I stated in my previous post, factory xenons are an extreme bargain for the price you're paying.
pat-- thanks! Yeah, it's back! ...you're wonderful as usual.
--'rocco
I have driven an 02 Maxima with Xenons, and they are definitely brighter and cleaner light. I had a hard time getting used to the road being lit with blue light though.
When I took delivery of my car, an '01.5, I initially thought my Xenons were defective because when they warmed-up, they didn't seem as blue as those of other Audis, BMWs, Acuras, etc. When I inquired about this, and researched it further, I found that in 2001, Audi switched to a different bulb which according to my dealer, is supposed to be much more effective.
When warmed, the headlights give the sensation of an intense white light instead of the bluish spectrum which we mostly associate with HIDs. So anyone buying a new Audi won't have the problem getting used to the road appearing to lit with blue, they'll just see an extremely effective white appearing beam which almost makes the surroundings seem like they are in daylight. What surprised me is how white the painted crosswalk, lane markings, etc. appear.
I really doubt that I could ever buy another car without Xenons.
--'rocco
I wanted to get factory xenon lights when I bought the A4 but since they have the exact car I wanted (sans the xenons) for a very good deal, I can't resist the temptation (and the wait for ordering one) but to buy it. About a year later I started to check out aftermarket xenon lights. The cost of the aftermarket complete Philips xenon kit is $540. The $1100 number must be including professional installation which you don't really need. I got together with a bunch of Audi guys and we did a DIY in a guy's garage. The whole installation took about 2 hours, but I believe some guys can do it faster. For the B5 A4's (pre 2002), it involves some dremeling and of course taking apart the headlight assemblies. No extra wiring or welding is needed. It is not difficult. The aftermarket kit looks exactly the same as the stock xenons and you also have the choice of choosing white at 4300k (which is currently what Audi uses and what I picked), 6000k which is blue like the BMW's, and I have seen 8200k which is VERY blue. If you want to see some pics of my headlights I can email you some. Here is a link to AudiWorld with some guy taking pics of different headlight setup:
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/994349.phtml
Like everyone had mentioned, the aftermarket xenon kit does not have the self-levelling mechanism. And of course if the aftermarket bulbs burned out they will not be covered under warranty (the ballast and assembly are under a 5-yr warranty). I don't know if Audi will replace factory installed xenon bulbs either if they burn out before the warranty expires (no manufacturer will replace halogen bulbs even when the car still has the warranty so most likely Audi won't).
Conclusion is, if you plan to pick up the car w/o factory xenons from the lot and can't afford the wait to order one, the aftermarket xenons are doable and it is not difficult (check at AudiWorld.com with the B6 post 02 A4 owners and see if the kit still costs $540). HOWEVER, if you plan to order the car, by all means, check that box that says Xenon headlights. Save the hassle and the $40 for gas.
Billy
Billy-- I think the service advisor at my dealer might have been feeding me a line. His explanation that the newer Xenons being "whiter" are better than the first generation sounds kind of hokie now that I read what you said. If the more blue the lights appear means that they're operating at a higher wattage then the more blue the appearance, the better vision they'll provide ...right? So, what you say makes more sense. Did the older Audi Xenons operate at a higher wattage to make them seem more blue than the more recent ones? Whatever the case, I'm satisfied with my factory ones.
Yeah, I'd have to assume that more technological progress has taken place in aftermarket HID options. Remember a couple of years ago on AudiWorld when there were many posts of people having problems with not only installation but reliability of aftermarket applications? It seems that nowadays people are having much better success and results with the conversion.
I forgot all about your converting to Xenons. If I hadn't, I might not have espoused so vocally about getting the factory option. *laughs* Glad to hear that it's working out for you. And yes, Paul is correct ...I've been assured that the Xenons (bulbs and all) are covered under the Audi Advantage.
--'rocco
my standard bulbs are Very good, that said if they were covered under the 4 year warranty no questions asked i might spring for them...
DL
'Rocco, the 4300k vs 6000k lights correspond to their colors in the light spectrum. The higher the number, the "cooler" or more bluish they are. I think it has nothing to do with wattage, which in fact at 40W or 45W (the aftermarket ones are) consumes even less than the stock halogens at 65W I believe. The reason why the 4300k looks brighter than the 6000k is in fact because the 4300k bulbs have a higher lumen rating, which equals to brighter lights. I believe the BMW's use the 6000k bulbs and I am not sure about older Audi's xenons but quite possibly they are using 6000k bulbs too, hence the blue/purple tint on them. I saw a couple of those new BMW 745i's and those stock xenons are WAY TOO bright.
Actually the stock halogens on the A4 is pretty white. I was driving following my gf's car one time (before I did the xenon conversion) and she commented that my headlights are whiter than the other cars on the road. I guess on the Jettas they don't have projector headlights so it's a wider area to project out the light vs in the A4 which uses a small projector to "spread" the light. Even the new Passats have pretty white halogen headlights.
The usual problem some people have on xenon headlight conversions @ AudiWorld is that the car thought there is something wrong on the headlights, i.e. it does not recognize the headlight bulbs are fine. They got a warning from the car and people had suggested getting a better ground wire for the installation. That takes care of the problem.
Billy
And to me, both the Audi and the Passat's halogen projectors seem dim when looking at them going down the road ...compared with the Jetta's multi-reflectors. The Jetta's headlights just seem brighter and whiter than any other multi-reflector halogens for some reason.
DL-- I suppose if you had a fight with your wife and were getting ready to leave in your car and she came after you with a baseball bat and smashed the headlights on your car as you were trying to get away, then the xenons probably wouldnt be covered under the Audi Advantage. I guess this could pertain to rock damage, etc. but for any other reason --defects in any of the components or the lights just failing to light-- my service advisor assures me that the Xenons will be covered under warranty.
Off-topic: Someone just sent me this in e-mail. It doesnt have anything to do with Audis but is from Europe and titled Proper Driving Habits. I rolled around on the floor while viewing it. Give it a few minutes to load if youre on dial-up and turn on your speakers.
Click here for Proper Driving Habits
--'rocco
The reflectors look kinda complex when looking at the Jetta's lights when off. And I agree, the lights are pretty bright on low beam. In comparison, the Lancer rental I had for 2 days had crappy headlight performance.
Vocus, I think Rocco is talkin about the multi-reflector headlight assembly. The light goes to the reflector first before shining down the road, versus the projector headlights which goes through the lens and hits directly down the road. I think my girlfriend's '97 Civic has the best halogen lighting systems out there. It doesn't look that bright if you are driving towards it, but behind the wheel it feels bright and great. And by the way, those bulbs are still stock from '97. Amazing.
Billy
Thanks
A4Q Avant 2.8. I think they hold up pretty well and I may be the mileage champ on this board (88k+).
Audis are well made but complex and it's nice to have that "assurance" that the car's been well maintained and relatively trouble free so far.
Most of the younger guys like the 1.8 'cuz it's readily chippable but I like the six. Go for the Sport-pac, you can really throw those around but they ride well.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
DL
Paul and Ren-- For the last several years, A4s have used white (back-lit) gauge illumination as opposed to the all red instrument cluster illumination in the early models. Warning markings in the gauges, the red-line area in the tach and metric markings in the speedo' are in red as well as all other lighted controls and buttons, however. It's easier to read, easier on the eyes and impresses others more than the all red instrument illumination of the earlier models, IMO.
Billy-- Thanx for the clarification. I mis-read what you said about "brightness" ...yeah, I didn't think it had to do with the actual brightness.
Paul-- the litte "thingie" in the reflector I was referring to is difficult to desribe. It's just a projection that looks like some kind of ignitor (?) that is coming out of somewhere in the center reflector shroud ...I can't even remember what it looks like exactly but it's something that you don't see on any other multi-reflector halogen ...take a look at your headlights and I think you'll see what I mean --what is that thing, anyway??
--'rocco
I'm looking forward to purchasing my first A4 in the next few weeks. I looked at the TMV price for an '03 1.8T here and it was at/slightly above MSRP ($33,161) with options. carsdirect.com prices the same car at $31,372 for the same zip code - Chicagoland area. Anyone have any input? This is my first car purchase and I'm just trying to get a good price.
Thanks!
I currently have a Lexus and am preparing for my next vehicle once the lease is up. Having at a Nav system for over two years now, I love it and wont consider a car without it. (No need for a Nav debate here...just my personal choice...)
I just wish Audi, whose cars I otherwise love, would offer a screen-based Nav system (which they do for their European cars), rather than that little arrow-only screen next to the speedometer...
I turned on the lights, and the dash lit up in red in the showroom of the '03. The markings themselves are white, but the backlighting is red. Personally, I don't like the red. I prefer the purple/blue of my VW. It's easier on the eyes than the red is on long drives.
And that is just the reflector inside the light, I think. I am about to take out the lights, remove the covers, and paint the inside of the lens (which is silver) black with high-temp paint. It's something I read about on Vortex, and it's called a Joey mod. Looks really cool from the pics I have seen of it. But to get the lights out, the grille and front bumper have to removed as well.
I didn't hear anything about the Nav system being upgraded, and I am sure it would have been in the "what's new" column for the Audi had it been changed.
rg-- I've heard some rumblings that Audi will eventually offer nav plus as an option in the A4 but I'm sure it won't completely happen for a few more years. I've followed some discussions on both AudiWorld and VWVortex about some people trying to retrofit various VAG models with nav plus with varying success. There are also many trying aftermarket systems. I'll try to post a few threads on various options these folks are trying when I have the time to look them up ...I was just reading a couple on the allroad forum recently where they are discussing retrofitting the nav plus.
And of course there are some who prefer the nav which the A4 currently uses for its simplicity and ease of use. Here's just one guys argument: click here.
Rich-- I don't think the Edmunds TMV has been adjusted recently ...I still think it reflects the TMV reported when the '03 was first available. The carsdirect.com price will be much closer to what you'd actually be able to get negotiating yourself at a dealer. I've found, both from my own experience and from what others report, that you can usually do substantially better negotiating yourself at a dealer than even the carsdirect price. I'm sure Billy can give you more information on prices and dealers in the Chicago area but as a rule of thumb, you shouldn't have to pay any more than about 4% over invoice ...and probably quite a bit less in the Chicago area.
--'rocco
Yet, I would probably have gone with Nav plus had it been offered. My friend has a 2001 BMW 7 series and it has the full screen navigation system.
In terms of the verbal instructions and the arrows etc -- the features and functions are 99.999% indentical. The voice of the Audi-lady is slightly different in the BMW but identical to the Mercedes-lady (at least in a 2001 S class car).
The alternate route feature -- same, the find a restaurant or ATM feature -- same -- in fact every function is the same -- there is just no moving map.
The navigation system, when we got it on our first two Audis about 30 months ago, was a curiosity almost a gadget or toy. Now, I wouldn't be without it.
As you probably know, I live in Cincinnati -- which is a small city with a fairly large suburban sprawl (1.5+ million pop) -- and we are at the borders of Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky -- our international airport is technically in Kentucky and the freeway which encircles the city is 100+ miles around.
I can go virtually anywhere -- if I know at least the street or the street plus a cross street or if it is a restaurant -- its name -- I don't have to have familiarity with the area of the city or suburbs and I can focus on driving. I don't have to leave extra early for an appointment at a building I have never been to previously. The Audi navigation system is not perfect, but it is damn close.
So, while I do miss the full screen a little bit -- I have nothing but love and praise for the functionality of the Audi Nav lite -- I just with they would give us the choice of nav lite or nav plus.
And, on the issue of the dashboard lighting -- according to Car and Driver magazine "nobody does instrument clusters better than Audi [sic]." The Audi's "jewel like" clusters are only just rivaled by Lexus. The article I read this description in was pertaining to an A6 4.2 and it claimed that the Audi was electro-luminesent (as is the Lexus) -- I don't know if the A4 has the same technology, but I assumed it was at the very least similar.
--'rocco
I would say that the gauges are not electroluminescent, but I could be wrong. They just seem too sharp to be EL.