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The NTSA (www.ntsa.gov) only list an air bag recall for 2003 A6's with 3-spoke sport steering wheels.
No recalls for 2002 A6's.
2001 A6's have a windshield wiper arm recall.
1999/2000/2001 have a fuel tank level sensor recall.
That's it for recalls folks....
Will somebody reply to my above question.
OK here goes: I have owned (leased) both a 2000 A6 4.2 with "standard" suspension and a 2001 with "sport" package (which includes sport suspension).
The 2000 had the optional wheels and tires (which are the same as the sport suspension's).
If there is an 18" wheel tire offering, I would probably avoid it -- I'll get to that in a minute.
The A6 4.2 with a sport package is different in many subtle ways from the one without it.
There is a "hunker" factor in the sport equipped version that is missing in the non sport equipped version. If you do get the standard version, at least get the upsized upperformance wheel+tire option (but stick to the 255 x 40 x 17" version).
The A6 4.2 w/sport is higher performance in the way that it handles when compared with the non
When compared, the A6 4.2 with sport package will exhibit:
Less body roll (the body stays flatter in the sport version when taking curves aggressively).
Less "jounce" -- the motions, even when more violent (on a washboard surface or rippled alsphalt surface) surfaces are encountered are controlled much more easily -- in the sport version.
Less gap -- although slight, the sport version is lower than the non sport. This means that the look of the sport version is "lower" -- because it actually is.
Less floaty. Although hardly a slouch, the non sport A6 4.2, even with its aluminum front bits is heavy and can feel a tiny bit floaty-- the sport package serves to quiet this down without unpleasant firmness.
Now, why not to get the 18" wheels/tires, if avail: ride quality. Look carefully at the 17" wheel/tire option. 255 mm wide on a 17" wheel with an aspect ratio of 40 -- and z rated maximum performance tires (i.e., they are very stiff, the sidewalls are very stiff, etc.) Most of the plus one sizes I have seen keep the width at 255 raise the wheel size to 18 and lower the aspect ratio further to 35. Stiffer yet -- which is not bad for handling, but really becomes (or can become) bone jarring on pothole ridden city streets.
Unless you really need the extra extra stiffness of the 18" wheels and tires -- I submit you will love the "standard" sport package version of the A6 4.2 much more than the non sport version -- and more than the upsized sport version, too. If you really want all that extra performance, why not go all the way to the S6 (avant only, unfortunately)? The A6 4.2 w/sport is really an S6 lite, IMHO. The next thing would be to actually go to the S6, that is.
If you are at Northland, ask the sales rep if you can drive my old (2001) A6 4.2 which is still on the lot -- it has the sport package and at 37K miles might even give you an idea of how well the sport package versions hold up here in Cincinnati.
And with respect to the payments: how many months? I would go with a 36 month lease and no money down -- this is the best month, typically to get a cap cost reduction and the money factor (aka interest rates) are at virtually all time lows even for German cars.
Use the Audi of America configurator and payment estimator -- then figure in a discount of some sort and write down the numbers. YOu should come up with a maximum number and you can calculate a number up to what ever reasonable discount off list you care to play with. This time of year, this market -- try 2.5% - to 10% off MSRP of your A6 4.2 and see what the effect is on the calculator on www.audiusa.com.
The "best deal" will be from Audi financial, the best cap cost will probably be here in February or March and there are two dealers here in Cincinnati -- they are certainly competitive with each other. I use Northland Audi but have nothing against Beechmont Audi -- I live close to Northland and have purchased over two dozen Audis from them -- they are great. I have nothing negagtive to say, however, about Beechmont.
No money out of pocket, 36 months, lease -- "best guess" $800 month assuming Premium, cold weather, parktronic, sport pkg, any paint and leather. MSRP $54,110 -- acquisition cost $50,000.
Every day there is a [different] deal -- depends on many variables money factor, Audi loyalty, Tuesday in a month beginning with the letter "R," etc. -- but with no money out of pocket for 36 months and 15,000 miles per year -- this looks "about right." But it could be $50 a month higher or lower or possibly more. I'd set my mind at a high number of $800 assuming I've guessed correctly on the options you may want. . .
We have a 2002 A6 3.0q with 25k miles and have not noticed any problems, but did get the Audi letter. I don't have it in front of me but I think instead of a "recall" as such, it was describing the problem and letting people know they would fix if they had the problem. Maybe that's why it's not on the list of recalls.
I think you can do better than $800/mo. I custom ordered an 01' 4.2 with an MSRP of $54k and, with $1k down and an $800 loyalty discount, payments are under $700 (just over w/ MA tax). I didn't even negotiate the best deal possible (Invoice + $2600), but got favorable money factors from Audi Financial and some creative number crunching from the dealer (knowing the cap cost, money factor, and residual, I still can't re-calculate their lease numbers - always comes to $25-$40 more than my actual payment - not that I'm complaining). I think you should get a much better discount off MSRP than I did based on the economy, etc. Good luck.
What is the term of the (your) lease, Chuck? And my very rough calculations came up with a swag factor that would put the payment with $0 down for 36 months as low as $750. Again that was a SWAG.
This was a rough calculation -- man if you can get a $54K MSRP 2003 A6 4.2 for UNDER $700, I'd go with it in a heartbeat.
Here in Ohio, as of NOW, lease payments are NET -- that is, if the lease payment coupon says $750 that's it (of course this means the taxes are "paid up front.") All my previous Ohio leases had a tax line item -- I think it costs more the "new way."
Anyway, my suggestion -- and that is all that it is -- is put nothing down, lease for 15K miles/yr for 36 months and use $800/mo as the ceiling price.
Every day there is a deal -- and right now ALL car dealers are likely to be in more of a "deal" mode (or there are deals they can pass along to you from the mfg or the financing arm).
Get this, I talked with my dealer just yesterday and he said, used car sales have all but stopped since new Audis (on a lease or finance-to-buy) cost less than used ones.
He said if he had a used 2001 A4, for example, that when compared to a new 2003 A4 -- BASED ON A LEASE CONTRACT -- that the 2003 would be equal to or less than the monthly number of the 2001.
Guess which ones people are flocking to?
Used car inventories here in River City are piling up -- indeed, it is even less money (today) to lease a new Porche than a used one.
Sorry for not providing the details regarding my lease. Ok, here it goes...
Final Neg Cap Cost: $48,068
Money Factor: .00169 (or 4.1%)
Term: 39 months (this may be the difference)
Lux Tax @ at signing: $500 (no longer applicable)
Total Pmt w/ Sales Tax: $719
Miles: 39k (Avg 1k/month or 12k/year)
I think the 39 month term, mileage limit, and the cap cost reduction are the main diffs here. The actual negotiated sales price of the car was invoice ($48,007) plus $2,600, which brought it to $50,607. This was then brought to the above figure when factoring in loyalty discount and the cap reduction I contributed. Not the best deal considering that most of the deals I've seen are more like $500-$1500 over invoice, but I custom ordered the exact car I wanted and was treated fairly by the dealer (still am for service). Of course, this was two years ago and things were a little different.
Speaking of used cars, my previous Audi was a '98 A4 2.8Q with every option. At the conclusion of the lease, the thing had about 24k miles and was in mint condition, but the dealer wouldn't touch it on a trade. He said there was no way they could come close to the residual, let alone put a few bucks in my pocket.
My only "argument" with you is that I would urge you to not further reduce the Cap Cost by inputting your own money. Other than a lower payment, it really is a false "economy."
But, to each his / her own. You have a great car spec'd out!
And it does have the sport package correct?
I agree with you on the cap cost reduction issue, but I put a $2k deposit on the car when I ordered it (6 month wait) and just applied it to the registration, plate fees, etc. As I recall, the remainder, coupled with the Audi loyalty discount, was just used as a cap cost reduction. It was only about $1500-$1800, which I probably would have given away in the stock market anyway (as you recall, it really sh*t the bed in mid-late 2001).
Believe it or not, I opted against the sports package, but I did order the package's rims & tires. Since the car was going to spend a lot of time bouncing over the bone-jarring Boston area roads, I wanted a "softer" ride (no flames please). It has everything else except nav & parktronic (wish that was offered separately back then - since when does parallel parking have anything to do with directions from point a to point b?).
Here is the good news, if this is a 2003 A6 4.2, I believe it has the "sport suspension" equivalent of a couple years ago. The differences are real and I think you would have enjoyed the sport suspension, but unless you plan to "carve" up and down the twisties -- the bigger wheels and tires will get you part of the way there.
I enjoyed my first 4.2 (2000) and did not feel that it was "my father's" caddy -- besides, if you feel you need more control, you can replace the springs and anti-sway bars for not too much money.
I did this in an A8 and it made a nice diff to the handling and didn't kill the ride. I'll bet Joe Hoppen could get you an S6 suspension for your new A6 4.2 if you really wanted it.
Mark, I thought only the '03 2.7T had the sport suspension standard, and that it was still an option on 4.2. No?
There is a sport package option for the 2003 A6 4.2, but "supposedly" the 2003 A6 4.2 has a "sportier" suspension -- but not as sporty as the "full blown" sport package has (springs, sway-bars, struts(?), seats, wheels/tires comprise the Audi factory sport option for a 4.2 A6).
An Audi aftermarket spring set and sway bar set is available from several vendors, some, like Joe Hoppen claim to sell the S6 suspension -- which can be applied to the 4.2 (and apparently ONLY the 4.2 due to it's different bits from the firewall forward).
An A6 4.2 is, then, already a "semi-sport" -- but, Tim, you are technically correct.
Thanks for the clarification, Mark. I wasn't aware that the base suspension had also been upgraded, but I'm not surprised. Even though I'm very fond of my non-sport '01 2.7T, I've always had 4.2 envy. Particularly of those with the sport suspension. On looks alone, it's a sure winner. There was a fellow in my area with a Ming Blue, sport suspension, 4.2 with a vanilla/royal interior. What a gorgeous looking car! IMHO, the lower ride height makes a good-looking car look fabulous, especially on the 4.2 with larger flares and slightly longer nose.
Saw a silver 2.7T with pipes out the back last night. Obviously and '02 or '03. It had significantly lowered ride height. Didn't see the wheels, and wondered if it was an '02 or '03. Even the 2.7T looks much better with lowered ride height. Also wondered if it was an after-market mod, because it was pretty low. Looked great though.
And that's just about looks. The handling improvement is easily worth it also. If I weren't so cheap, I'd think about an after-market sport suspension for my lease also. But being that I am, I'll content myself with a tire upgrade when it comes time to replace them.
You are far enough along in the "aging" of this car that it might just be worth your while to wait until you are in the market for a replacement for your 2.7T -- heard on the street, the 2.7T has perhaps only one more model year left in it.
I love my 2.7T engine -- and now that I've applied the 402 mod to my allroad and have the 245 wide tires, I'm a happy camper.
I've got 6K miles on the thing now -- and frankly, I am less tempted now to chip it -- it seems every bit as quick as my "old" 4.2 and it is a lot more fun with 6spds!
And the allroad -- mine has the full paint treatment -- in burgundy pearl with the brushed aluminum bulges (like the A6 4.2 and flared fenders) looks very agressive too.
The 2.7T engine is so quick -- it kinda makes my old 4.2 seem almost lazy. But, nothing sounds like that 4.2 -- now THAT I do miss.
Don't take me wrong, a 4.2 with the 6spd tip or manual would probably be THE combo to have.
Love the one your with (the car that is). . .
I contacted Audi AG a few months back about the possibilities of getting a TDI A6 here in the states. They said there were no such plans, but VW told me the same thing about the Passat, and I hear that a Passat TDI is coming. I'm ok getting a Passat TDI, but an A6 TDI... well... that'd would be too sweet.
It had more torque than the 3.0 engine (stump pulling comes to mind). And, at 180HP it seemed plenty willing to go fast.
I also got to ride in it with Walter Rohlr on a closed ice-covered track in the mountains of Austria. You would never have known the thing was a TDI -- it was quiet, quick and -- well -- "normal."
I'm sure it would be a hit -- especially with its miserly ways, compared to the gas version -- here in the US!
I've also heard that there is a V10 TDI engine too avail in an A8 and a VW Toureg (in Europe, of course).
Motoring press has rumored Mark's V10 TDI MIGHT be an option for the new A8. Nothing on TDI in A6. Unless gas goes up to $5 a gallon, my guess is you won't see the 2.5 TDI in the A6.
I believe the 2.5 TDI is the standard A6 engine in Germany's domestic market. Of course the price of fuel is very high there. I think the diesel sold there is a different grade than the diesel that sold here.
I saw and actually rented several Audi's in Germany.
They put such tiny engines in them -- even in A6's it is amazing. The 2.5TDI is, in some of the Audi's the TOP of the line engine. In the A4 in Germany the top of the range is the 3.0 and the 2.5TDI, arguably, is only a half step below. I rented an A4 with either a 1.4 or 1.6 non turbo engine (gas) and drove it up and down the autobahn at over 160kph for hours -- with relative ease (but with not much quickness).
The A6's I saw in Germany were often 1.8T equipped and I also saw a 2.8 engined A8 (that must have been a real bowser).
I saw several A6 avants with 2.5TDI on their backsides, too. Also saw some very "high zoot" Audis (mainly avants) that were certainly high performance (RS4 for example).
So, I think the 2.5TDI engine is a option that is generally on the higher range versions of Audis.
Oh yea, my rental A4, had power FRONT windows and crank rears.
What gets imported here into USA-land appear to be, at whatever engine output, much higher content cars -- pretty close to the top of the range.
Funny, too -- most of the Audis I saw in Germany did NOT have sunroofs -- try finding one in the US without one. They charge a lot more for a sunroof in Germany (in Euros) than we pay here as part of the "premium" package, for example.
I've been looking for some time for a used A6 and currently have my eyes on a 2000 Silver 2.8 w/ 35,000 miles. This is a "Certified" vehicle from an Audi dealer in Torrance, CA.
Looking at various online forums, it appears as though people either love the cars or want to burn them and collect the insurance money to ease the pain of ownership. I worked at Audi dealerships in the early 80s and remember the days of the 5000 and the never-ending cycle of replacing window regulators and brake master cylinders...
However, I hear things are largely much better these days. None-the-less, I would love to hear from owners of similar cars as far as their ownership experiences:
If it's been great, I would like to know. Other questions:
1. Common failures you have had or heard about
2. Can it run on regular fuel without problem
3. Typical oil consumption: I'm from the oil/filter every 3,000 miles school (and have a Honda with 256,000 miles to prove it) and am a little alarmed at Audi's recommended 7,500 change interval. My Honda still does not use oil in 3,000 miles before I change it. What should I expect?
4. Does anyone know why some used cars make the Audi "Certified" program and some do not? What is the rejection criteria?
Those are the major question areas. I love the style and comfort of this car but want to learn more before I plunge in.
Please educate me before I do something that I may regret!
If you go by the metric of term and monthly payments, according to my dealer Norhtland Audi, in Cincinnati, it is less money per month (36 - 39 month term) to lease a brand new audi a6 3.0 than it is to buy or lease a used one.
My dealer is "so distressed" that his used car sales have plummeted, that he is not acquiring any new used cars unless they are being traded in. He no longer takes the off lease cars and keeps them, that is.
My personal salesperson says, "unless you are paying 100% cash, acquiring a used one -- in today's market -- is both a false economy and an invitation for maintenance and repair bills that you just won't have with a brand new one.
At 35,000 miles on a 2000 -- how are the tires, or better, when and at what cost will they need to be replaced. The Audi advantage expires at 50K and even though you will be protected from catastrophic expense with the Audi assured deal (which IS a good thing) over a 30 - 39 month "ownership" you will be paying less out of pocket.
Furthermore: 3.0 engine vs 2.8, ESP and ABS +brake assist vs ABS alone, side curtain airbags, vs no side curtains; many "new and improved" features and functions -- much better and responsive engine, better economy and on and on and on. Even the tiptronic is better in the 03.
I cannot afford a 2000 audi when faced with a 2003 for arguably less money.
Mark, I have no doubt that the dealer told you that new is cheaper than used, but on the face of it this makes no sense. If that were the case then there would be no market whatsoever for late model, used Audi's - no one would EVER buy a used one when they could save and buy new. It would also mean that Audi's do not depreciate which we all know is not the case.
The price for used models is purely driven by supply and demand, and I would have no doubt that kawasaki2 could save quite a bit by buying a 2000 2.8 with 35,000 miles. That doesn't necessarily mean that this is the better buy, factoring in the improvements made to the car, some of which you list, since the 2000 model year. But if the price difference is wide enough, it might make sense to buy the certified used model, as the looks are pretty much the same. In fact I bet most casual observers would never notice the difference. He could drive it for a year or two with full warranty protection, and not take the big depreciation hit that the original owner undoubtedly took.
Just another opinion...
A used Audi -- say a 2001 -- is less money than a new one. I did not claim otherwise.
My Porsche/Audi dealer leases over 80% of the cars he sells, the remaining ones are purchase in cash or financed.
Using the metric of "cost per month" -- the deal is on the 2003 NOT on the 2001.
Your points are all valid and I cannot contradict them.
Today, March 2003 -- a used is more money that's all.
If a used MY 2000 is 50% of a new one which would be MSRP'd @ $42,000, or $21,000 and it is possible to find 0% financing for a used car for 36 months, the payments to own this car would be $583/mo.
The current "deals" on A6's "nicely equipped" (MSRP as noted above) w/$0.00 down is (in Ohio where the tax is part of the total monthly payment) $619/mo.
At the end of the 36 months if you buy, you theoretically have the car and no more payments and the car may be worth $8 or $9K.
At the end of the 36 months if you lease, you have no car, no asset, nothing.
During the lease, I submit -- (and this is where the dealer is finding his customers are opting NOT for used cars that are 50% off the price of a new car, but for the new cars) the costs due to wear and tear, the 100% Audi Advantage (which is NOT the same as Audi Certified) and the fact that EVERYTHING in the new car, was NEW -- that the new car cost less to "use" for the 36 months than the used car.
Many people, from the dealer's perspective again, do not keep cars more than "about" 3 years.
Many people like the "advantages of the new car."
Many people have found that a 6 year old car has lost so much value and the expense of maintenance so high beyond a certain point (warranty or no) makes them unattractive.
My agreement with these notions ebbs and flows. The monthly number argument, today, basically says "unless you are paying cash or can get a (late model) used car for 0% interest, the new car will have a lower payment."
This today situation is almost unique in our economic and financial history. New cars are flying off the lots due to "rate" deals that are not offered on used cars.
For the forseeable future (a few more months?) unless you are in a cash situation, the new lease makes monthly payment sense.
Mark, I see your point about the benefits of leasing a new Audi, particularly if the dealers are offering subsidized deals to get them off of their lots. Right now we very well may be in a temporary period where leasing a new model makes a lot of sense, assuming of course that you can afford the monthly payments.
I don't know how accurate your numbers are, but assuming that they are indeed reflective of what the "real world" deals and values are today, it's still cheaper - if cost alone is being considered - to buy the used one. As you note, you own the used one outright after making the 36 payments, and at that point it's worth $8,000 - $9,000. Factoring in the difference (savings) in the monthly payments, you are more than $10,000 ahead after the three years are up. Again, the numbers could well be different, but assuming your figures are "real world" values, you are essentially paying $22,284 ($619 x 36) to drive the new one for 3 years vs about $12,000 to drive the used one for 3 years ($21,000 less the $9,000 remaining value). This is almost a 50% savings, not an insignificant amount for a "person on a budget" who still wants to drive a nice, late model German sedan.
I guess the most important thing to do if you are in this situation (deciding whether to lease a new one or buy used) is to do your homework and run the exact numbers carefully each time. You may find that all things considered, including the likely benefits of a new car warranty, added safety features, new car smell, etc leasing the new one is worth the extra cost. But temporary great leasing deals notwithstanding, at the end of the day the market will always guarantee an appropriate discount for buying used, because the market is the sum of hundreds of buying/leasing decisions that are made each week. And the more Audi and its dealers "flood" the market with subsidized new car lease deals, the more downward pressure is exerted on the prices of used models - creating "bargains" that many people on a budget can't resist.
You will not be able to finance a used car at 0% interest, so the out of pocket cost will actually be higher. Cash 100% up front, somewhat different, but I guess one could argue alternate uses for the cash.
$8 or 9K -- according to my dealer is "possible" but only if the car after 36 months is "very clean," does not need work or tires, etc -- possible but generally not seen that way. So real "trade in value" probably 4 figures less.
All your points are true, however.
I just cannot make the USED CAR buy thing work with NEW CAR incentives (plus the other already stated advantages) that are out there today and likely to be there for months to come.
On a cash out of pocket basis, however, the used car will require more money out of pocket than the used one. Now it is true that there should be some residual value in 2006 on the 2000 or 2001 car, but every day that passes it decriments and it is NOT the same as cash.
Lease or rent depreciating assests and buy appreciating assets -- that is what my money guys (not my car guys) tell me.
Cars are tools of the trade for me and I like having late model ones. The compelling reasons to lease NOW and during the Carter years the compelling reasons THEN to "buy in today's dollars and pay back in tomorrow's dollars" -- underscore this upsidedown situation.
I still advocate doing what YOU feel comfortable doing.
Thus far -- for me -- its lease a new one every 24 to 36 months and live with increased peace of mind.
To each his own.
Forest Lakes, AZ
write car expenses off against a business look at vehicles differently than mere mortals.
The issue becomes cash flow -- what has to be paid out each month to drive X? Hey, it's a business expense, so comes off the bottom line -- for car fans, this is money very well spent.
In the other world (I'd hate to say real, because there are so many in that situation), your vehicle costs you what you pay for it, minus what you are able to get when you sell it, minus maintainence (I'm stunned that Mark didn't hold forth on this, this time), minus opportunity cost of the money tied up, etc.
We plebeians who work for salary (or worse yet, wages) need not apply.
To me, the forever debt of leasing cars one after another does not make economical sense. Just buy a car, maintain it, and keep it forever is the way to go. I envy those who drive a 80's Toyota with 250k miles on the motor. The word "VALUE" just screams out at you. Think of the opportunity cost they have saved over the years.
Your convictions, too, have much merit. In my case, I have NOT desired a 250K auto, which does not make either one of us "correct."
The costs, the RATIONALIZED costs, I admit, have made such a practice (keeping the car beyond 50,000 miles) both emotionally and financially unaffordable in my circumstances.
As I age, I do find myself becoming somewhat more attached to cars than I ever thought possible.
And, most of us who drive Audis, truth be told, put value pretty far down on their lists (despite our protestations to the contrary).
My Honda driving friends think we European and American car drivers are nuts. We're still friends though.
My BMW driving friends think Audis are "weenies cars" (I am in IT) and show them little respect and much disdain. We're still friends, too.
Cars are -- even for us left brained folk -- not rational.
Our attempts to rationalize and legitimize what we do with them (including funding them) are neither rational nor legitimate if attempted to be broadly applied.
This is an Audi lovers board (mostly) and it seems to be a new Audi lovers board. But, if you have an Audi with 250,000 miles on it -- as far as I'm concerned -- you're still welcome here anytime.
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