I don't know if i like the idea of a RWD TL. Sure its a sporty car but also luxury oriented. Most cars in this segment are overly sporty or overly luxurious. I find the TL a great balance of both.
Lets List some pros and cons of the TL having RWD
Pros: * Better Weigh Distribution as the current 61/39 isn't kicking it
* Better wear of all the tires as now its a tire eater
* Good foul weather traction
Cons:
* Less interior space
* Less trunk space
Unchanged: * Still the same great car!!
I did get to drive a g35 today and I felt the pushing motion right away as opposed to the pulling FWD accord I have now. I liked it and if felt easier to apply power when turning. IMO, it was different from what I'm used to.
Its possible honda may use RWD in the TL but then the cost of making a new platform is expensive... Honda could use this platform with the Tsx and RL too.
But still, I keeping my opinion until I drive a Tl. Actually, I plan to own a TSX or TL in a few years (after 2009)
Oh, honda has 2 great AWD systems (VTM4 & SHAWD**) and either could find their way to the Tl...
"Does anyone really see Honda/Acura coming out with a RWD sedan? Ever?"
Maybe the next RL. I don't think you'd see RWD on any of their bread and butter sedans. Lets face it, the bulk of the customers for the volume sedans either don't care, or want FWD.
I don't know too much of what's involved in using a platform with different cars, but Acura/Honda did use a RWD platform with the S2000, right? How hard would it be to adapt it?
extremely hard. I asked this question and found the the s2000 uses a platform that was specifically designed for the s2000. If you notice, no other honda in north america has the same engine as the s2000?
The transmission is the only thing that honda has for use in other products. The s2000 is a specialty platform which mean every nook and cranny, is only for use in the s2000. Ever wonder why it never saw an automatic transmission? So do I... Or why no other honda product got push button start...
"Ever wonder why it never saw an automatic transmission? So do I... Or why no other honda product got push button start..."
Forget those distinctions, you had it right when you indicated that the S2000 used a model specific platform. To its credit, Honda designed the S2000 from absolute scratch, as a ground up world class roadster. It was every bit as unique (and hand built) as the former Acura NSX. And one test drive in an S2000 compared to a bloated, parts and chassis sharing 350Z is all you would need to feel the benefits.
As for others claiming that Honda/Acura doesn't need a RWD platform because the mass market doesn't care? That's not the market Acura should be going after as the "premium" Honda brand in my opinion. The RL sales are abysmal, in part becasue as fine of a car as it is from a tecnology standpoint, the anemic V6 and extraordinarily heavy SH-AWD system are huge competitive disadvantages. There is a long waiting list for BMW M5's at full MSRP (or above) of $85,000+. Acura sells a handful of RLs at invoice or below, most in the low $40,000 range. And yet the V6 Rl weighs more than the V10, 500 hp M5. If that isn't a case for RWD, I don't know what is.
On the TL, if Acura wants to continue to position it as an upscale, "sporty" ubber-Accord, that's fine. But don't insult those that know what a real sport sedan is with the FWD TL-S by adding more horsepower to the wrong wheels and up the price to 3 series range. If the TL wants to play in sport sedan territory, it needs RWD. Period. Those that want to, can buy the Accord EX.
"But don't insult those that know what a real sport sedan is with the FWD TL-S by adding more horsepower to the wrong wheels and up the price to 3 series range."
If they keep selling them, then it doesn't matter who's "insulted". If you're insulted, then don't buy one. Plenty of 3 series available for anyone who's "insulted" by Acura.
But, as I noted previously, I agree that Acura has to rethink and reposition the RL.
Actually, what I'm also wondering is, for that 1% who's insulted by Acura, if they're also "insulted" by what BMW charges to put the drive wheels on the "proper" axle, where would they go, and risk a 3rd insult?
Then why aren't those 99% buying the RL in droves? Or rather, why does the 5-series (which caters to the 1%) outsell the RL by about 10 to 1.
As the TL inches towards the 3 series in price, I think the question as to why it is the only "entry level luxury performance sedan" that is hamstrung with FWD becomes a more relevent question.
No, I think that the number of potential sports oriented buyers that Acura is losing with FWD and ubber-obese AWD, not to mention the lack of a flagship V8 is a bit more than 1%. Probably not 30% but I can count at least 5-6 friends that drive BMWs that could be tempted by better RWD and/or V8 offerings from Acura.
Lastly, let me clarify that I was not "insulted" by the excellent balance of attributes that the TL offered in 2004. But the heavy marketing of the RL as a "super handling" 300 hp (actually 290) performance sedan is obviously not fooling much of anybody, as dismal sales prove. And I really think the lifespan of the $38k TL-S is limited. I can already spin my front wheels until the tires are bald with "only" 270 (actually 258) horsepower. Do I really need more torque steer on a FWD setup? It simply comes down to marketing what you are delivering, not selling something that isn't.
One of the 99%ers here. I think that the issue with the RL ("Then why aren't those 99% buying the RL in droves?") is not that the RL is terribly deficient but that the TL is so proficient. Putting aside real-world transactions, when you compare the MSRPs of the TL/RL, is the RL worth ~$13k more than a loaded (Nav) TL? Does the RL offer more interior room, trunk space? Faster/quicker? Better handling, nicer interior? Better/more upscale styling? Overall, I think the answer in nyet. Is the TL cannibalizing sales of the RL?
Given the ~$50k msrp of the RL, for some % of the 99%ers that is certainly badge territory. Why pay that much for a Honda when for a few dollars more I could have the blue/white propeller or the three pointed star? All nice rides, but the valet at the Capitol Grille probably ain't gonna park the A-Calipers out front with the propellers and the stars...
And marketing is just that. I'm old enough to remember Ford Granada commercials where they compared it to the comparable Mercedes of the day. The "real people" (actors) in the commercial actually could not tell the two silver cars apart! How dare Ford market as such! How many people were fooled by the Granada (not one of the women I tried to impress with mine, at least! ).
Just a theory and I too enjoy the excellent balance offered by my ski country friendly FWD (well, it would be without the lousy Turanzas I'm sure) TL. For the invoice-ish price I paid, just an excellent, excellent automobile. And very handsome in a non-Bangle way. Not that there's anything wrong with that Bangle look... Ok, to me there is...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
For the invoice-ish price I paid, just an excellent, excellent automobile.
That's exactly why I bought an 06TL. For under $32K I got a loaded cruiser that's fun, safe, fuel efficient and beautiful. Honda knows what its doing. The TLS is more of a boutique car - an Acura-line show-off. I think the 258hp is more than enough jam. The nav didn't excite me either. I figured within 1-2 years the system in the car would be usurped by an out-of-the-box plug and play unit or a laptop with a GPS.
So pricing is what gets the TL out the door at the dealer.
- The TL, at $32k+/- was/is a highly competent ELLPS and well positioned as offering tremendous bang for the buck.
- The RL, for $10-$15k more, offers a little more luxury, but not enough to justify the price difference for most. And in terms of sporty performance, compared to my 2004 TL 6-speed, comes up short, at least on dry pavement.
What we appear to disagree on:
- IMO, Acura could compete with the Germans if they delivered the goods. Lexus sure as heck does on the luxury side. Infiniti is frankly a mess, and yet it gets some credit on the sport front. Part of Acura's problem is that they seem to lack self confidence. I may drive a 911 now, but I continue to recommend the Honda S2000 as the best roadster short of the $60k Boxster S (i.e. above the base Boxster). Not just on value, but performance. Hugely superior to the 350Z and superior to the Z4. Why they don't go for the gusto relative to a true flagship luxury performance sedan is beyond me.
- The TL-S is now the only TL you can get a 6-speed manual in. Granted, manuals represent a small percentage of buyers. But if you look back, 90% of the favorable press Acura got with the new TL in 2004 were based upon test drives of the 6-speed. The FWD $38k TL-S is NOT competitive with RWD alternatives that, since 2004 have gotten substantially more powerful and have not had their price proportionally increased nearly as much as the jump to a TL-S I believe for 2007 and beyond, the base TL will return to being considered simply a ubber Accord and those that have $38k to spend on a sporty/sport sedan will get a 3-series. Not primarily becasue of badge, but performance. Losing enthusiasts is a serious mistake, IMO.
- That the $70k Lexus LS460 outsells the "non-flagship" $45k RL by an enormous margin, while the BMW 550i enjoys virtually no competition from Japan is, IMO, a market opportunity. And I think Honda/Acura has more potential on the sport/performance front than Toyota/Lexus - IF they would just get some intestinal fortitude.
- You seem to view the Honda/Acura nameplates as interchangable. And if you drive an automatic TL, I can see why. But if Acura wants to distiguish itself, the sport/performance front is wide open. Lexus tackled Mercedes with success, Acura could do the same to BMW. A Honda moniker didn't dissuade me from buying an S2000 over a Porsche.
I hope all you readers out there don't think I'm straddling both sides of the fence since I previously-commented on my wish for a RWD TL. I agree that the TL is a great value and a good balance between sport and luxury, and it's also taught me that 250 HP and 200/250 torque is really all I need to have a good time (at least for now ).
When I got my '04, I had never driven a sporty car that was RWD or AWD - my 1st car was a RWD '70 Oldsmobile, but while it had a nice engine under the hood, it couldn't compare to the sports-sedans of today. Anyway, I enjoy my TL and I'm glad I've got it, but I can't help thinking how much more I'd enjoy it if it were RWD - the fact that there are RWD options out there doesn't help
I do love my ride - it's great, but I can't help thinking about what might have been...
habitat1, I don't keep up with car mags, so please excuse me if this is a dumb question , but when you say Infiniti is "a mess," what do you mean? I believe they get (and DESERVE) a lot of credit for turning their struggling car company around and creating true competition for BMW.
At the risk of showing my ignorance, my impression is that it actually started with the redesigned Nissan Altima (was that in '99?) - they made a fast, low budget, FWD car. They morphed that concept into a redesigned Maxima and a RWD version of the Altima - the G35. Several years later they developed a RWD version of the Maxima and it's the M35/45.
I think Cadillac learned from them - and Mitsubishi, with its two exciting cars, the Lancer and the Eclipse, could learn from them.
"...but when you say Infiniti is "a mess," what do you mean? I believe they get (and DESERVE) a lot of credit for turning their struggling car company around and creating true competition for BMW."
First, let me say that I have a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed (relocated to our second home) that I won't sell because I think it is a great car. That car won Car of the Year awards from several magazines and consistently won comparison tests among the sport/sporty sedans of its day. It was a car that enthusiasts appreciated, way more so than any concurrent offerings by Honda and Toyota and more so, thanks to manual transmission and sport suspension than even the 1995 Acura TL/Vigor.
But look at the Maxima now. Who the heck buys it? Someone that cuts a better deal than they could get on a Camry or Avalon? It has completely fallen off the enthusaists radar screen. A CVT transmission? Come on. It's competition for Buick, but not Acura, and certainly not BMW. Instead, the former Civic competitive Altima is taking the place of the former Maxima? With it's low scale interior? If that's not a mess, please don't show me your definition. I'd likely puke.
Probably the best offering that Infiniti has is the G35 sedan and coupe. Yet when I was shopping in 2004, I actually preferred the performance of the FWD TL 6-speed, with it's smoother engine, crisper gearbox and better (Brembo) brakes to the RWD G35. As for the interior style and ergonomics, the 2004 G35 didn't have any. I understand that the redesign is improved on both performance and interior quality, but it shouldn't have taken them that long. My 1995 Maxima had a better looking interior than the 2004 G35.
True competition for BMW? Not by my metrics. The G35 is closest. But it is very rough around the edges, compared to the 335i. And the M35/M45 are not remotely close to the 530i / 550i sport package 6-speeds in terms of crisp driving dynamics. Not to mention, they are slushbox handicapped. And suffer from some interior design bi-polarisms as well. Infiniti thinks that increasing horsepower makes up for other design deficiencies. Perhaps for some, but not me.
Lexus may not make cars that cater to my personal preferences, but I credit them for doing what they do, well. Same for Acura, mostly. But Infiniti (and Nissan) seem to always be playing catch up, at least in the last 5+ years. I sincerely think the 1995 Nissan Maxima SE was perhaps the best car produced by either company, vis a vis its competition at that time. I guess that's why I've kept mine all those years.
Actually, no I believe that I'm very much in agreement with you. I just didn't expound very much on points outside of the TL/RL relationship (in my view at least). And I certainly don't disparage Acura by referring to it as Honda, rather that was kind of a "badge" comparison/reference I theoize that the voices in other shopper's heads may be echoing when considering $50k+ cars ("rebadged Honda vs. "True" BMW or MB). My wife loves her Lexus RX300. But those who feel they must deride other's choice of autos might snidely remark that it is just a gussied up Toyota Camry Wagon. Ok, fine with me. It's built by Toyota, wife loves it so I care not what other's think or what badge they choose to market it under. Face it, if the wife wanted and Aston Martin DB9 I'd be working six jobs to get her one (yeah, I'm not too bright). And some pinhead would remark that the AM is just a fancy Jag XK....
Anywho, yes I do believe that if Honda decided to build a competitive RWD/AWD four door luxury performance sedan, they most certainly could. Witness the NSX and your/the beloved S2000. Honda/Acura decided to and did build world class versions of the sports car genre. Why they don't yet go full bore with an Acura flagship, beyond me too. Not that overall Honda has not had some minor success in the roughly 40 years they've been peddling their wares here. They've done ok doing it their way, no?
Lexus joined the fray with the LS400 that was (at least) a class above the then Legend in '89. The LS instantly established a beachhead that Honda/Acura has never truly tried to breach, i.e. the LS has always been a RWD/V8. So, I don't believe that the RL, although the Acura flagship, should be compared to the LS. I'd guess not many cross-shop those two. The RL/BMW 5/MB E comparison is more apropros and I briefly touched on that in my prior post on why it could be considered less than a resounding success.
And agreed, when approaching $40k and I want all-around refined performance, the TL-S is worth comparing but ultimately will not provide the 9-10/10ths performance demanded by the 1% here. It will offer a TL dialed up to "11," but it is still the uber-uber Accord. I just couldn't bring myself to spend more than I did on the TL, if I was better to myself I probably would have 3'd or E'd or A'd, depending upon my mood. And, I in no way feel that I "settled" with the TL. Honda/Acura I believe does FWD performance (cue "that's an oxymoron!!!" comment from Blueguy...) as well or better than anyone and for my needs/wants and desires is an excellent choice.
BTW, I grew up driving a stick. Learned on a Saab 99 4-speed, first car I bought a VW Scirocco 5-speed (I think 5-speed, so many miles ago). First new car 5-speed Mitsu Mirage Turbo followed by stick Acura Integra (still possibly the best screwed together car I've ever owned. Just solid and tight. And fun). Got my wife out of a Monte Carlo into a Nissan Sentra SE-R back in '92, taught her to drive a stick as I had a company car and wanted a fun weekend car and came full circle to a row-it-yourself Saab 900 in the mid 90s as were were expecting child numero uno. Lost company car, became a commuter and wife, being a commuter too lost love of the third pedal, hence slush-o-rama. But, my next car, I may try to regain my lost youth (as I do as soon as I strap on my skis!!! Next week, two feet of new snow!!! Yeehaa!)with a ??? 6 speed? Never say never...
So, in summary, I think we're on the same page. You have just not given in to the dark side of the force as I have, young Skywalker.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Luckily for me, to her, the paid-off RX is the pinnacle in autos! She said she's good car-wise for another 4-5 years. If I'm bright enough, I'll just keep my mouth shut and not point out all the improved and shinier new cars! So that I can get one!!! Jag XK anybody? Oh, yeah. No stick, but from what I've read a fabulous box o' slush! Ok, make mine a 911.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
"You have just not given in to the dark side of the force as I have, young Skywalker."
Oh, if only the "young" part was true. I turn 50 in two months and my youngest daughter keeps joking that the 6-pack I had in pictures form my old softball days has turned into a keg. I've worked it down to a mere case, but it's looking tough for getting it back before the birthday cake arrives.
I think you are right about the rest, however, and appreciate being on the same page with you.
50 is the new 39.6, my friend. Oh FOR the HUMANITY1! (non-sequitir, and now the mind comes off its leash briefly...). I'm a stone's throw behind you, candles-wise. Maturity-wise? Dude, it's 1976, let's hop in Dad's Saab 99 and freewheel up to New Haven for the Doobie Brothers concert! Freebird! Does anybody remember laughter?
Ok. I'm a bit of a freewheeler when it comes to cars. Even slowly overcoming my prejudice against the domestics having driven a couple of innocuously forgettable (company car) sedans in the '90s. But their (relative) reliability allowed me to take a chance on the '99 300M which I thoroughly enjoyed. I fear (yes, the Reaper too) that my days as a travelling salesman in the boring yet serviceable domestic family appliance-mobiles may have dulled my sporting-driving tilt. I will also admit that I am a fool for a pretty face (gee, I'm a guy. Is there any more surprising revelation than that?). The style of the aforementioned 300M allowed me to live with the somewhat amusing Chrysler "build quality." Note that the M never failed me, nothing ever fell off, nor leaked. But the panel gaps, come on! And, as I may have mentioned, I find the TL to ooze style both within and without.
I think I've made up for my more sedate driving style by skiing like I'm being chased by the wife's lawyers! Forget man and machine on the Nurbugring, man and wood/fiberglass/steel sticks strapped to his feet that are encased in hard, rigid plastic bashing down VW-sized bumps in Vermont! And loving it! And oftentimes I'm actually upright on my skis! Now how'd that happen??? Actually, I think the best compliment I've had in years was when my then 9 year old daughter rolled her eyes and called me a show-off while skiing together! Life's been good to me so far!
And I've maintained a six pack most of my life. It has always been well preserved and encased in the "beer ball" I've kept hidden under the skin in my stomach! :sick:
Sorry for the (Nash) rambling. Just something I do every so often. Thanks for listening and be sure to watch "Rules of Engagement" Monday Nights @ 9:30 on CBS. We'll be right back...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
"My point is that honda doesn't need RWD sales wide for the TL"
I would have agreed in 2004, when the $32,000 TL 6-speed I bought was 3 rungs up in interior quality and amenities, and less expensive than a comparably equiped G35 6-speed sedan. And when the 235hp 330i ZHP was around $45k fully loaded and was a tight fit for my family. And the IS350 didn't exist.
But now, at least for me, I'd have to pay $38k +/- for a TL-S 6-speed manual that is really no better than my 2004 TL 6-speed. The 2004 6-speed had the "upgraded" suspension and Brembo brakes that are now being marketed as a TL-S "feature". The interior is the same, amenities are essentially the same and the extra 28 horsepower on a FWD set-up is practically useless. In the meantime, the 335i is 35% more powerful than the 330i (nearly matches the M3 in acceleration), has a larger interior and is not significantly more expensive than the former 2004 330i ZHP. Even the G35 sedan, while still not my cup of tea, has improved significantly in power (the useable RWD type) and interior quality while keeping price constant.
I guess I'm in the minority thinking that Acura can actually design, build and sell quality cars on their own platforms that AREN'T just gussied up Hondas? If The TL went to RWD, Honda could step up the FWD Accord EX to offer the extra TL gizmos and do-dads in a heartbeat, and probably not lose more than a handful of sales in the process. But then Acura would have a distinctive and seriously competitive RWD TL to take on the 3 series, G35 and IS. Frankly, the TL-S is as much of an embarassment as the goofy "A-spec" package of the past. Acura has taken a step backwards relative to enthusiasts at a time when BMW, Infiniti and even Lexus have taken 1 or 2 forward steps.
So I agree, Acura doesn't need RWD to sell gussied up Accords to brand conscious slushbox happy buyers who think "sporty" means listening to ESPN radio on XM. And I'll continue to put most of my miles on my 911 while estolling the virtues of my former $32k Honda S2000. I just think it's gross underachievement for Acura to leave all that potential on the drawing boards.
Not the meds, amigo. The lingering affects of driving an Olds 88, Mercury Sable and Dodge Intrepid for 8 years of my life... That would get to anyone...
Mmmmmm. A young Charlotte Rampling. And donuts...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
" I just think it's gross underachievement for Acura to leave all that potential on the drawing boards."
But are they leaving any "potential" on the drawing boards? Or is the TL selling very well, offering an alternative to the RWD offerings which most likely appeals to a wider audience and makes Honda's shareholders oh so happy? (Theorizing, I'm not actually sure how well the TL continues to sell.)
From some reviews I've read, does the TL really handle any worse than the IS? I know the 3 and G are tighter, but is the best possible handling FWD less of a performer than a soft RWD? For the 99%, of course...
I believe that I understand your frustration. You KNOW Honda can do it, build a car fully competitive to the 3 while potentially offering lower costs and greater reliability. But they don't. For years and years I harbored the same feelings about GM. Biggest car co. in the world with no doubt thousands of talented designers and engineers and "car guys". Yet they wouldn't product a car worthy of third world countries. Why? Hello, I'm Roger Smith and I'm an accountant. I run GM...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
"but is the best possible handling FWD less of a performer than a soft RWD? For the 99%, of course..."
Here's where I'll draw the line: $33,000.
Sounds pretty arbitrary, I know, but in the increasingly competitive and evolving ELLPS segment, if the TL wants to compete with FWD, I believe it needs to be at or below $33,000 to do so - and offer a 6-speed manual for us 10-15% that bought one from 2004 to 2006. If it goes beyond that price and relegates a manual transmission to a more expensive but still FWD "S" model, it loses a good portion of the enthusiast buyers - and the automotive press - that gushed over the 2004 redesign.
As a business person who studied Bruce Henderson's (founder, Boston Consulting Group) theories on corporate strategy, I accept that Acura can do well financially by simply milking the current FWD TL as a "cash cow" and letting it slide into a repeat of the previous generation. Which, if you recall, by 2003 was fighting with the ES300 and Avalon for title of "Most Boring" ELLPS. The BMW 3 series has never had sales slide that low by excessive milking, but Acura seems to be willing to do so.
On the other hand, I think the TL could be a "Star" platform for Acura to become more competitive with BMW overall and capture sales that none of the Japanese brands are really getting. And I believe it could do so at the $40,000 price point (IS350 territory), while concurrently redesigning a real "flagship" V8 RL up to the $55k price point to take on the 5 series and E class. After all, Acura does already have a TSX at the high $20's price point to let Honda fans get an Acura logo.
I guess until I line up a few billion in private equity to attempt a takeover, I'm stuck posting in Edmunds and hoping that somebody from Acura is reading.
And I hope that you're enjoying your 911. The 911 is for a sports enthusiast. The s2000 is for the sports purists. The Tl is for the people who want luxury and sport.
8 times out of 10, The TL buyer prefers the space of the TL and now that the CTS has a Luxurious interior, acura has some plannin-tu-du.
If acura needs inspiration for design, I hope they look at the CTS(The 2nd generation). Its RWD, luxurious, sporty, and on the bottom half of the pricing. It looks good, it will most likely drive good, and it will be extremely good. But as i'm reading this posts, RWD is becoming a more favorable option/standard for the tl.
Indeed, but Edward's (habitat1) empassioned points are well taken and well advised. Acura could take a page from Lexus and have a mix of FWD for lower-end (a la ES350-TSX)and RWD for movin' on up (GS/LS-TL/RL).
Don't count out Honda, nor habitat's VC! I would contribute to your Honda buyout, hab, but while your couch yielded you a 911, mine only seems to get me a Happy Meal... :surprise:
Either way, still diggin' my (now filthy! There's a Zaino shine under there somewhere...) TL as I've loaded the CD player with Derek and the Dominos, Traffic, Jackson Browne and The Who. Casette player houses Steely Dan and it all sounds pretty good to me, thank you Mr. ELS!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
"If acura needs inspiration for design, I hope they look at the CTS(The 2nd generation). Its RWD, luxurious, sporty, and on the bottom half of the pricing."
No offense, but I'd rather see the TL remain FWD than look to GM/Cadillac for any inspiration. The CTS may be on the bottom half in pricing, but it's on the bottom of the ocean in terms of resale.
Part of my poorly made point is also that, for every perspective TL buyer that Acura would lose going away from FWD, I believe they would pick up 2-3 that prefer RWD, at least in the $35k+ price range. RWD isn't just for the Michael Schumachers of the world. RWD tracks better, accelerates smoother (i.e. w/o wheel hop), brakes better (50/50 balance), feels better all around. And, like I said, even our FWD TL is sitting in the snow thanks to it's tires.
I'm no expert on any of that stuff. I do love my '05 TL and have virtually no complaints. But this talk of the CTS...short of a Toyota Camry could there be a more "vanilla" car design out there? By the time the designers got done with all their sharp angles it came out looking like one of those cold sticks of used butter that's been in the frig a little too long. I talked with a guy that owned some special CTS, with some obscene amount of HP, could do 0-60 in 1.3 seconds, could make an omelette in 4.8 seconds...and it looked JUST as bland as all the other CTS' out there. Lord only knows what he paid for it. Call me a man with an ego but if I'm going to shell out healthy five figures for a high performance automobile, I'd like it to LOOK like I paid healthy five figures. I want a car that makes me look at it 2-3 times before I close the garage door at night - and my TL does that, at least every time I wash it!
I'm talking about the New Cts. I actually dropped my jaw (NO JOKE)at how close GM is to actually getting it right. All I'm waiting for is the 1st drive & full test. Take a look for yourself!
For the other honda-holics like myself out there, I hope acura makes a RWD sedan. I dont know how to say it but based on the upcoming cadillac lineup...
Tsx can stay FWD as its a great handling car. Good for the Cadillac Bls, Is250, & 328i. It needs more power and i think the Turbo is the best way for it to go. IMO, T.s.x. stand for "Touring Sports Crossover" which fits the Tsx perfectly.
The TL i still say FWD. A standard Limited Slip Differential, 3.5l v6 and a Button/Knob to switch between Sport and Comfort settings makes perfect es350 and s80 competor. I see Infiniti Bringing out the I35 again. I see TL as True Luxury or Touring Luxury.
Rl Should be RWD and SH-AWD option. GS430(50 in future?), 535i/550i, & E-class. Would Acura be stepping on their own toes if I said it should be renamed SLX for "Sports Luxury Crossover". Using a 4.8l w8 (Two 2.4l I4 180hp + 180hp = 360hp), RWD or RWD biased Sh-awd option IMO fills the Void left by the two and only Acura Legend(s? :confuse: ).
"for every perspective TL buyer that Acura would lose going away from FWD, I believe they would pick up 2-3 that prefer RWD" IMO this would not be true.
A big portion of the TL sales are the result of the value for the $ (perceived or real it makes no difference) - Acura can price the TL the way it does because it shares so many things with the Accord. If Acura did a completely new car on a RWD platform it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars - and that cost would be passed on in a higher price. That would place the TL at the same price point as the IS 350 & BWM.
Honda is not just trying to make nice cars that people want - they also want to make a profit at it. Not saying the company is run by accountants - but that they are good business people. IMO the same hold true at Toyota.
No problem! :P Forget the looks. Hopefully it drives great! Thats what I mean Acura should take the Cts for inspiration! For the RL not Tl. If this CTS drives good, looks good, and is priced right, GM could actually get something right, the whole way through!!
As aside note, when will acura offer other great luxury features and a 6 speed automatic? Yea blue tooth and the nav are great but so are a Panoramic Roof, Push Button Start(without the Slot), and Heated AND COOLED seats!!
"If Acura did a completely new car on a RWD platform it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars - and that cost would be passed on in a higher price. That would place the TL at the same price point as the IS 350 & BWM."
While I agree there would be some additional costs, I think you are grossly overstating the magnitude.
Honda designed and produced a limited edition, hand built roadster in the S2000 that doesn't share a single major part or component with any other Honda or Acura period. Unique platform, unique engine, unique (and expensive) in wheel suspension,..... The amount of ground up engineering in that car makes a TL, or RL for that matter, look like a Model T. And even limited to under 10,000 units a year worldwide, the S2000 is priced about the same as mass produced TL which sells more vehicles in one year than all S2000's that have been built since it was introduced in 2000.
I suspect that going to RWD on the TL would add a nominal amount (i.e a couple hundred dollars, at most) to the cost of the car amortized over 4-5 years of production. And again, I think that cost could be more than offset by increased combined sales of an upgraded FWD Accord and a more ELLPS competitive RWD TL.
Cost aside, the value to Acura for increased prestige as moving towards becoming a true upscale brand: "priceless".
Have you driven a TL yet!! IT is a Performance sedan! I take it thats what you were hinting at by bolding the P.
There is no rule the RWD is required to be a good sports sedan. Remember, Acura's priority with the TL is to be a Touring Luxury Sedan. The TL handles admirably for a vehicle with 60% of it weight on the front wheels!! Same for the TSX.
If RWD is to be on any model, it should be the RL, MDX, and Nsx. The TL, TSX, and Csx are are good handling FWD sedans.
In fact, all hondas vehicles handle well for FWD. Its true they aren't as fun to drive as a RWD car, but Acura has it down with the AWD thing.
RWD will leave you in trouble in the snow but FWD and AWD won't as easily. The AWD mdx is just about as good a handler as the X5.
And for the record, making the TL RWD won't make it cost a few hundred more. It be a minimum of 5k more. You must factor in the price for development, parts, and equipment.
Then a new engine as hondas engines are optimized in the front. AWD isn't as complicated. Then with RWD you loose the good things about the TL like the smallish trunk for a smaller one. The RWD components do take trunk space. Then the decent interior space becomes smaller because of the Transmission tunnel having to take up that much more space.
Ever notice that no honda even uses the S2000s engine... A RWD TL should start in the boring RL's and 530(5)is territory $43,000 base with no nav or even a 6speed manual. A RWD compromises to much for acura. The RL needs the fun to drive factor to go up before any big changes can be made to the TL.
"Have you driven a TL yet!! IT is a Performance sedan! I take it thats what you were hinting at by bolding the P....There is no rule the RWD is required to be a good sports sedan."
I have 24,000 miles on my 2004 TL 6-speed that I have owned since May 2004.
And, I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with both your statements the TL (even the 6-speed) is a "Performance sedan" and that RWD isn't required for a "good sports sedan". The TL is an excellent balance of sportiNESS, luxury and value. It is NOT a serious sports sedan by my definition or any serious enthusiasts I know. If you try to drive it like one, you will have your hands full with torque steer, wheel hop and plowing through corners. It is a fun to drive good handling car under normal driving conditions, but it is not a 3 or 5 series when pushed hard.
Also, now that the 2007 "base" TL only comes with an automatic, softer suspension and non-Brembo brakes compared to my 2004 6-speed, it has even dropped out of my definition of "sporty". Acura now requires one to pony up for a TL-S to deserve that adjective.
"And for the record, making the TL RWD won't make it cost a few hundred more. It be a minimum of 5k more. You must factor in the price for development, parts, and equipment."
Not to be rude, but that's just pure B.S.. Where did that wild [non-permissible content removed] figure come from? I've casually studied the (real) economics of the automotive business and obtained some actual financial data on the development cost of the Honda S2000 (which I also owned). If merely switching to a RWD platform added $5,000 to the cost of the TL, all of the ground up engineering technology that went into the limited production Honda S2000 would have resulted in a price tag of $100,000 by your math.
My first new car, a rear wheel drive 1978 Datsun B210GX, cost $4,200, including taxes. The smaller FWD Honda Civic CCRV cost closer to $5,000 and employed "more expensive" FWD transverse mounted engine engineering.
You need to get your facts straight. The actual cost difference between FWD and RWD is minimal. And, while you're getting your facts straight, try test driving a 335i 6-speed and TL-S 6-speed side by side on a route that you can really test their driving dynamics without endangering the public. Perhaps they are equivalent by your definition of "performance" but certainly not mine.
Like SUV's and off roading, what percent of Tl buyers push their TL to the limits on a daily basis? The 3 series is a great car IMO but for its price point its a problem for bmw. I believe thats why we get no 130i here.
A car like the s2000 IMO should cost $25k not $33k. Nothing IMO about the s2000 says $33k. Its price came from the R&D of it and its parts, its engine, and its power top and glass. All of this is new for honda and is costly to develop.
You can go ahead and spend nearly $45k on a 335i with the same features you can get on the Bigger, cheaper, FAMILY oriented Tl.
A RWD Tl will increase weight too much. Yeah it would be better distributed but its will be slower.
The TL weighs <100 more than the 3 and <100 of the 5 series.
Size and feature wise, doesnt the TL compete with the 5, s60/80, ES and GS?
Comments
Lets List some pros and cons of the TL having RWD
Pros:
* Better Weigh Distribution as the current
61/39 isn't kicking it
* Better wear of all the tires as now its a tire eater
* Good foul weather traction
Cons:
* Less interior space
* Less trunk space
Unchanged:
* Still the same great car!!
I did get to drive a g35 today and I felt the pushing motion right away as opposed to the pulling FWD accord I have now. I liked it and if felt easier to apply power when turning. IMO, it was different from what I'm used to.
Its possible honda may use RWD in the TL but then the cost of making a new platform is expensive... Honda could use this platform with the Tsx and RL too.
But still, I keeping my opinion until I drive a Tl. Actually, I plan to own a TSX or TL in a few years (after 2009)
Oh, honda has 2 great AWD systems (VTM4 & SHAWD**) and either could find their way to the Tl...
-Cj
** Most likely
* Better Weigh Distribution as the current
61/39 isn't kicking it
* Better wear of all the tires as now its a tire eater
* Good foul weather traction
??? :confuse:
If it were RWD, it would be a completely different car.
Does anyone really see Honda/Acura coming out with a RWD sedan? Ever?
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Maybe the next RL. I don't think you'd see RWD on any of their bread and butter sedans. Lets face it, the bulk of the customers for the volume sedans either don't care, or want FWD.
I don't know too much of what's involved in using a platform with different cars, but Acura/Honda did use a RWD platform with the S2000, right? How hard would it be to adapt it?
The transmission is the only thing that honda has for use in other products. The s2000 is a specialty platform which mean every nook and cranny, is only for use in the s2000. Ever wonder why it never saw an automatic transmission? So do I... Or why no other honda product got push button start...
-Cj
Forget those distinctions, you had it right when you indicated that the S2000 used a model specific platform. To its credit, Honda designed the S2000 from absolute scratch, as a ground up world class roadster. It was every bit as unique (and hand built) as the former Acura NSX. And one test drive in an S2000 compared to a bloated, parts and chassis sharing 350Z is all you would need to feel the benefits.
As for others claiming that Honda/Acura doesn't need a RWD platform because the mass market doesn't care? That's not the market Acura should be going after as the "premium" Honda brand in my opinion. The RL sales are abysmal, in part becasue as fine of a car as it is from a tecnology standpoint, the anemic V6 and extraordinarily heavy SH-AWD system are huge competitive disadvantages. There is a long waiting list for BMW M5's at full MSRP (or above) of $85,000+. Acura sells a handful of RLs at invoice or below, most in the low $40,000 range. And yet the V6 Rl weighs more than the V10, 500 hp M5. If that isn't a case for RWD, I don't know what is.
On the TL, if Acura wants to continue to position it as an upscale, "sporty" ubber-Accord, that's fine. But don't insult those that know what a real sport sedan is with the FWD TL-S by adding more horsepower to the wrong wheels and up the price to 3 series range. If the TL wants to play in sport sedan territory, it needs RWD. Period. Those that want to, can buy the Accord EX.
Those = 1%
The rest = 99%
Acura doesn't care if they insult those people..
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If they keep selling them, then it doesn't matter who's "insulted". If you're insulted, then don't buy one. Plenty of 3 series available for anyone who's "insulted" by Acura.
But, as I noted previously, I agree that Acura has to rethink and reposition the RL.
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Pat is the host here.. and a darn good one!!
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And by way bodble2 and I go waaaay back, don't we bod?
I haven't forgotten. It's just that it's been awhile since you've had to chastise me!
My Valentine's Day gift to you is my mellowed attitude on your threads! :P (Well, I try my best anyway)
The rest = 99%
Then why aren't those 99% buying the RL in droves? Or rather, why does the 5-series (which caters to the 1%) outsell the RL by about 10 to 1.
As the TL inches towards the 3 series in price, I think the question as to why it is the only "entry level luxury performance sedan" that is hamstrung with FWD becomes a more relevent question.
No, I think that the number of potential sports oriented buyers that Acura is losing with FWD and ubber-obese AWD, not to mention the lack of a flagship V8 is a bit more than 1%. Probably not 30% but I can count at least 5-6 friends that drive BMWs that could be tempted by better RWD and/or V8 offerings from Acura.
Lastly, let me clarify that I was not "insulted" by the excellent balance of attributes that the TL offered in 2004. But the heavy marketing of the RL as a "super handling" 300 hp (actually 290) performance sedan is obviously not fooling much of anybody, as dismal sales prove. And I really think the lifespan of the $38k TL-S is limited. I can already spin my front wheels until the tires are bald with "only" 270 (actually 258) horsepower. Do I really need more torque steer on a FWD setup? It simply comes down to marketing what you are delivering, not selling something that isn't.
One of the 99%ers here. I think that the issue with the RL ("Then why aren't those 99% buying the RL in droves?") is not that the RL is terribly deficient but that the TL is so proficient. Putting aside real-world transactions, when you compare the MSRPs of the TL/RL, is the RL worth ~$13k more than a loaded (Nav) TL? Does the RL offer more interior room, trunk space? Faster/quicker? Better handling, nicer interior? Better/more upscale styling? Overall, I think the answer in nyet. Is the TL cannibalizing sales of the RL?
Given the ~$50k msrp of the RL, for some % of the 99%ers that is certainly badge territory. Why pay that much for a Honda when for a few dollars more I could have the blue/white propeller or the three pointed star? All nice rides, but the valet at the Capitol Grille probably ain't gonna park the A-Calipers out front with the propellers and the stars...
And marketing is just that. I'm old enough to remember Ford Granada commercials where they compared it to the comparable Mercedes of the day. The "real people" (actors) in the commercial actually could not tell the two silver cars apart! How dare Ford market as such! How many people were fooled by the Granada (not one of the women I tried to impress with mine, at least!
Just a theory and I too enjoy the excellent balance offered by my ski country friendly FWD (well, it would be without the lousy Turanzas I'm sure) TL. For the invoice-ish price I paid, just an excellent, excellent automobile. And very handsome in a non-Bangle way. Not that there's anything wrong with that Bangle look... Ok, to me there is...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Ditto.
"Why pay that much for a Honda when for a few dollars more I could have the blue/white propeller or the three pointed star?"
Ditto
"And marketing is just that"
Double Ditto!
That's exactly why I bought an 06TL. For under $32K I got a loaded cruiser that's fun, safe, fuel efficient and beautiful. Honda knows what its doing. The TLS is more of a boutique car - an Acura-line show-off. I think the 258hp is more than enough jam. The nav didn't excite me either. I figured within 1-2 years the system in the car would be usurped by an out-of-the-box plug and play unit or a laptop with a GPS.
So pricing is what gets the TL out the door at the dealer.
- The TL, at $32k+/- was/is a highly competent ELLPS and well positioned as offering tremendous bang for the buck.
- The RL, for $10-$15k more, offers a little more luxury, but not enough to justify the price difference for most. And in terms of sporty performance, compared to my 2004 TL 6-speed, comes up short, at least on dry pavement.
What we appear to disagree on:
- IMO, Acura could compete with the Germans if they delivered the goods. Lexus sure as heck does on the luxury side. Infiniti is frankly a mess, and yet it gets some credit on the sport front. Part of Acura's problem is that they seem to lack self confidence. I may drive a 911 now, but I continue to recommend the Honda S2000 as the best roadster short of the $60k Boxster S (i.e. above the base Boxster). Not just on value, but performance. Hugely superior to the 350Z and superior to the Z4. Why they don't go for the gusto relative to a true flagship luxury performance sedan is beyond me.
- The TL-S is now the only TL you can get a 6-speed manual in. Granted, manuals represent a small percentage of buyers. But if you look back, 90% of the favorable press Acura got with the new TL in 2004 were based upon test drives of the 6-speed. The FWD $38k TL-S is NOT competitive with RWD alternatives that, since 2004 have gotten substantially more powerful and have not had their price proportionally increased nearly as much as the jump to a TL-S I believe for 2007 and beyond, the base TL will return to being considered simply a ubber Accord and those that have $38k to spend on a sporty/sport sedan will get a 3-series. Not primarily becasue of badge, but performance. Losing enthusiasts is a serious mistake, IMO.
- That the $70k Lexus LS460 outsells the "non-flagship" $45k RL by an enormous margin, while the BMW 550i enjoys virtually no competition from Japan is, IMO, a market opportunity. And I think Honda/Acura has more potential on the sport/performance front than Toyota/Lexus - IF they would just get some intestinal fortitude.
- You seem to view the Honda/Acura nameplates as interchangable. And if you drive an automatic TL, I can see why. But if Acura wants to distiguish itself, the sport/performance front is wide open. Lexus tackled Mercedes with success, Acura could do the same to BMW. A Honda moniker didn't dissuade me from buying an S2000 over a Porsche.
When I got my '04, I had never driven a sporty car that was RWD or AWD - my 1st car was a RWD '70 Oldsmobile, but while it had a nice engine under the hood, it couldn't compare to the sports-sedans of today. Anyway, I enjoy my TL and I'm glad I've got it, but I can't help thinking how much more I'd enjoy it if it were RWD - the fact that there are RWD options out there doesn't help
I do love my ride - it's great, but I can't help thinking about what might have been...
habitat1, I don't keep up with car mags, so please excuse me if this is a dumb question
At the risk of showing my ignorance, my impression is that it actually started with the redesigned Nissan Altima (was that in '99?) - they made a fast, low budget, FWD car. They morphed that concept into a redesigned Maxima and a RWD version of the Altima - the G35. Several years later they developed a RWD version of the Maxima and it's the M35/45.
I think Cadillac learned from them - and Mitsubishi, with its two exciting cars, the Lancer and the Eclipse, could learn from them.
First, let me say that I have a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed (relocated to our second home) that I won't sell because I think it is a great car. That car won Car of the Year awards from several magazines and consistently won comparison tests among the sport/sporty sedans of its day. It was a car that enthusiasts appreciated, way more so than any concurrent offerings by Honda and Toyota and more so, thanks to manual transmission and sport suspension than even the 1995 Acura TL/Vigor.
But look at the Maxima now. Who the heck buys it? Someone that cuts a better deal than they could get on a Camry or Avalon? It has completely fallen off the enthusaists radar screen. A CVT transmission? Come on. It's competition for Buick, but not Acura, and certainly not BMW. Instead, the former Civic competitive Altima is taking the place of the former Maxima? With it's low scale interior? If that's not a mess, please don't show me your definition. I'd likely puke.
Probably the best offering that Infiniti has is the G35 sedan and coupe. Yet when I was shopping in 2004, I actually preferred the performance of the FWD TL 6-speed, with it's smoother engine, crisper gearbox and better (Brembo) brakes to the RWD G35. As for the interior style and ergonomics, the 2004 G35 didn't have any. I understand that the redesign is improved on both performance and interior quality, but it shouldn't have taken them that long. My 1995 Maxima had a better looking interior than the 2004 G35.
True competition for BMW? Not by my metrics. The G35 is closest. But it is very rough around the edges, compared to the 335i. And the M35/M45 are not remotely close to the 530i / 550i sport package 6-speeds in terms of crisp driving dynamics. Not to mention, they are slushbox handicapped. And suffer from some interior design bi-polarisms as well. Infiniti thinks that increasing horsepower makes up for other design deficiencies. Perhaps for some, but not me.
Lexus may not make cars that cater to my personal preferences, but I credit them for doing what they do, well. Same for Acura, mostly. But Infiniti (and Nissan) seem to always be playing catch up, at least in the last 5+ years. I sincerely think the 1995 Nissan Maxima SE was perhaps the best car produced by either company, vis a vis its competition at that time. I guess that's why I've kept mine all those years.
Anywho, yes I do believe that if Honda decided to build a competitive RWD/AWD four door luxury performance sedan, they most certainly could. Witness the NSX and your/the beloved S2000. Honda/Acura decided to and did build world class versions of the sports car genre. Why they don't yet go full bore with an Acura flagship, beyond me too. Not that overall Honda has not had some minor success in the roughly 40 years they've been peddling their wares here. They've done ok doing it their way, no?
Lexus joined the fray with the LS400 that was (at least) a class above the then Legend in '89. The LS instantly established a beachhead that Honda/Acura has never truly tried to breach, i.e. the LS has always been a RWD/V8. So, I don't believe that the RL, although the Acura flagship, should be compared to the LS. I'd guess not many cross-shop those two. The RL/BMW 5/MB E comparison is more apropros and I briefly touched on that in my prior post on why it could be considered less than a resounding success.
And agreed, when approaching $40k and I want all-around refined performance, the TL-S is worth comparing but ultimately will not provide the 9-10/10ths performance demanded by the 1% here. It will offer a TL dialed up to "11," but it is still the uber-uber Accord. I just couldn't bring myself to spend more than I did on the TL, if I was better to myself I probably would have 3'd or E'd or A'd, depending upon my mood. And, I in no way feel that I "settled" with the TL. Honda/Acura I believe does FWD performance (cue "that's an oxymoron!!!" comment from Blueguy...) as well or better than anyone and for my needs/wants and desires is an excellent choice.
BTW, I grew up driving a stick. Learned on a Saab 99 4-speed, first car I bought a VW Scirocco 5-speed (I think 5-speed, so many miles ago). First new car 5-speed Mitsu Mirage Turbo followed by stick Acura Integra (still possibly the best screwed together car I've ever owned. Just solid and tight. And fun). Got my wife out of a Monte Carlo into a Nissan Sentra SE-R back in '92, taught her to drive a stick as I had a company car and wanted a fun weekend car and came full circle to a row-it-yourself Saab 900 in the mid 90s as were were expecting child numero uno. Lost company car, became a commuter and wife, being a commuter too lost love of the third pedal, hence slush-o-rama. But, my next car, I may try to regain my lost youth (as I do as soon as I strap on my skis!!! Next week, two feet of new snow!!! Yeehaa!)with a ??? 6 speed? Never say never...
So, in summary, I think we're on the same page. You have just not given in to the dark side of the force as I have, young Skywalker.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
because you have to work 6 jobs to buy a car, or that you married a high-maintenance gal?
Luckily for me, to her, the paid-off RX is the pinnacle in autos! She said she's good car-wise for another 4-5 years. If I'm bright enough, I'll just keep my mouth shut and not point out all the improved and shinier new cars! So that I can get one!!! Jag XK anybody? Oh, yeah. No stick, but from what I've read a fabulous box o' slush! Ok, make mine a 911.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Oh, if only the "young" part was true. I turn 50 in two months and my youngest daughter keeps joking that the 6-pack I had in pictures form my old softball days has turned into a keg. I've worked it down to a mere case, but it's looking tough for getting it back before the birthday cake arrives.
I think you are right about the rest, however, and appreciate being on the same page with you.
Ok. I'm a bit of a freewheeler when it comes to cars. Even slowly overcoming my prejudice against the domestics having driven a couple of innocuously forgettable (company car) sedans in the '90s. But their (relative) reliability allowed me to take a chance on the '99 300M which I thoroughly enjoyed. I fear (yes, the Reaper too) that my days as a travelling salesman in the boring yet serviceable domestic family appliance-mobiles may have dulled my sporting-driving tilt. I will also admit that I am a fool for a pretty face (gee, I'm a guy. Is there any more surprising revelation than that?). The style of the aforementioned 300M allowed me to live with the somewhat amusing Chrysler "build quality." Note that the M never failed me, nothing ever fell off, nor leaked. But the panel gaps, come on! And, as I may have mentioned, I find the TL to ooze style both within and without.
I think I've made up for my more sedate driving style by skiing like I'm being chased by the wife's lawyers! Forget man and machine on the Nurbugring, man and wood/fiberglass/steel sticks strapped to his feet that are encased in hard, rigid plastic bashing down VW-sized bumps in Vermont! And loving it! And oftentimes I'm actually upright on my skis! Now how'd that happen??? Actually, I think the best compliment I've had in years was when my then 9 year old daughter rolled her eyes and called me a show-off while skiing together! Life's been good to me so far!
And I've maintained a six pack most of my life. It has always been well preserved and encased in the "beer ball" I've kept hidden under the skin in my stomach!
Sorry for the (Nash) rambling. Just something I do every so often. Thanks for listening and be sure to watch "Rules of Engagement" Monday Nights @ 9:30 on CBS. We'll be right back...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
My point is that honda doesn't need RWD sales wide for the TL The RL is a whole different story.
For the RL to be competitive in today's market, i propose
RWD and AWD option
3.7l v8 until we get v8s or my proposed W engine(2 2.4l i4s good for (170hp+170hp) 340hp
A luxo (for the contempt) and Sport (for others) model think c350 models.
-Cj
BTW, is it Nash rambling, or Nash rambler, or Nash rampling, or Charlotte Rambling? :P Who can forget her in The Night Porter.
I would have agreed in 2004, when the $32,000 TL 6-speed I bought was 3 rungs up in interior quality and amenities, and less expensive than a comparably equiped G35 6-speed sedan. And when the 235hp 330i ZHP was around $45k fully loaded and was a tight fit for my family. And the IS350 didn't exist.
But now, at least for me, I'd have to pay $38k +/- for a TL-S 6-speed manual that is really no better than my 2004 TL 6-speed. The 2004 6-speed had the "upgraded" suspension and Brembo brakes that are now being marketed as a TL-S "feature". The interior is the same, amenities are essentially the same and the extra 28 horsepower on a FWD set-up is practically useless. In the meantime, the 335i is 35% more powerful than the 330i (nearly matches the M3 in acceleration), has a larger interior and is not significantly more expensive than the former 2004 330i ZHP. Even the G35 sedan, while still not my cup of tea, has improved significantly in power (the useable RWD type) and interior quality while keeping price constant.
I guess I'm in the minority thinking that Acura can actually design, build and sell quality cars on their own platforms that AREN'T just gussied up Hondas? If The TL went to RWD, Honda could step up the FWD Accord EX to offer the extra TL gizmos and do-dads in a heartbeat, and probably not lose more than a handful of sales in the process. But then Acura would have a distinctive and seriously competitive RWD TL to take on the 3 series, G35 and IS. Frankly, the TL-S is as much of an embarassment as the goofy "A-spec" package of the past. Acura has taken a step backwards relative to enthusiasts at a time when BMW, Infiniti and even Lexus have taken 1 or 2 forward steps.
So I agree, Acura doesn't need RWD to sell gussied up Accords to brand conscious slushbox happy buyers who think "sporty" means listening to ESPN radio on XM. And I'll continue to put most of my miles on my 911 while estolling the virtues of my former $32k Honda S2000. I just think it's gross underachievement for Acura to leave all that potential on the drawing boards.
Mmmmmm. A young Charlotte Rampling. And donuts...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
But are they leaving any "potential" on the drawing boards? Or is the TL selling very well, offering an alternative to the RWD offerings which most likely appeals to a wider audience and makes Honda's shareholders oh so happy? (Theorizing, I'm not actually sure how well the TL continues to sell.)
From some reviews I've read, does the TL really handle any worse than the IS? I know the 3 and G are tighter, but is the best possible handling FWD less of a performer than a soft RWD? For the 99%, of course...
I believe that I understand your frustration. You KNOW Honda can do it, build a car fully competitive to the 3 while potentially offering lower costs and greater reliability. But they don't. For years and years I harbored the same feelings about GM. Biggest car co. in the world with no doubt thousands of talented designers and engineers and "car guys". Yet they wouldn't product a car worthy of third world countries. Why? Hello, I'm Roger Smith and I'm an accountant. I run GM...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Here's where I'll draw the line: $33,000.
Sounds pretty arbitrary, I know, but in the increasingly competitive and evolving ELLPS segment, if the TL wants to compete with FWD, I believe it needs to be at or below $33,000 to do so - and offer a 6-speed manual for us 10-15% that bought one from 2004 to 2006. If it goes beyond that price and relegates a manual transmission to a more expensive but still FWD "S" model, it loses a good portion of the enthusiast buyers - and the automotive press - that gushed over the 2004 redesign.
As a business person who studied Bruce Henderson's (founder, Boston Consulting Group) theories on corporate strategy, I accept that Acura can do well financially by simply milking the current FWD TL as a "cash cow" and letting it slide into a repeat of the previous generation. Which, if you recall, by 2003 was fighting with the ES300 and Avalon for title of "Most Boring" ELLPS. The BMW 3 series has never had sales slide that low by excessive milking, but Acura seems to be willing to do so.
On the other hand, I think the TL could be a "Star" platform for Acura to become more competitive with BMW overall and capture sales that none of the Japanese brands are really getting. And I believe it could do so at the $40,000 price point (IS350 territory), while concurrently redesigning a real "flagship" V8 RL up to the $55k price point to take on the 5 series and E class. After all, Acura does already have a TSX at the high $20's price point to let Honda fans get an Acura logo.
I guess until I line up a few billion in private equity to attempt a takeover, I'm stuck posting in Edmunds and hoping that somebody from Acura is reading.
8 times out of 10, The TL buyer prefers the space of the TL and now that the CTS has a Luxurious interior, acura has some plannin-tu-du.
If acura needs inspiration for design, I hope they look at the CTS(The 2nd generation). Its RWD, luxurious, sporty, and on the bottom half of the pricing. It looks good, it will most likely drive good, and it will be extremely good. But as i'm reading this posts, RWD is becoming a more favorable option/standard for the tl.
-Cj
Don't count out Honda, nor habitat's VC! I would contribute to your Honda buyout, hab, but while your couch yielded you a 911, mine only seems to get me a Happy Meal... :surprise:
Either way, still diggin' my (now filthy! There's a Zaino shine under there somewhere...) TL as I've loaded the CD player with Derek and the Dominos, Traffic, Jackson Browne and The Who. Casette player houses Steely Dan and it all sounds pretty good to me, thank you Mr. ELS!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
No offense, but I'd rather see the TL remain FWD than look to GM/Cadillac for any inspiration. The CTS may be on the bottom half in pricing, but it's on the bottom of the ocean in terms of resale.
Part of my poorly made point is also that, for every perspective TL buyer that Acura would lose going away from FWD, I believe they would pick up 2-3 that prefer RWD, at least in the $35k+ price range. RWD isn't just for the Michael Schumachers of the world. RWD tracks better, accelerates smoother (i.e. w/o wheel hop), brakes better (50/50 balance), feels better all around. And, like I said, even our FWD TL is sitting in the snow thanks to it's tires.
For the other honda-holics like myself out there, I hope acura makes a RWD sedan. I dont know how to say it but based on the upcoming cadillac lineup...
Tsx can stay FWD as its a great handling car. Good for the Cadillac Bls, Is250, & 328i. It needs more power and i think the Turbo is the best way for it to go. IMO, T.s.x. stand for "Touring Sports Crossover" which fits the Tsx perfectly.
The TL i still say FWD. A standard Limited Slip Differential, 3.5l v6 and a Button/Knob to switch between Sport and Comfort settings makes perfect es350 and s80 competor. I see Infiniti Bringing out the I35 again. I see TL as True Luxury or Touring Luxury.
Rl Should be RWD and SH-AWD option. GS430(50 in future?), 535i/550i, & E-class. Would Acura be stepping on their own toes if I said it should be renamed SLX for "Sports Luxury Crossover". Using a 4.8l w8 (Two 2.4l I4 180hp + 180hp = 360hp), RWD or RWD biased Sh-awd option IMO fills the Void left by the two and only Acura Legend(s? :confuse: ).
-Cj
A big portion of the TL sales are the result of the value for the $ (perceived or real it makes no difference) - Acura can price the TL the way it does because it shares so many things with the Accord. If Acura did a completely new car on a RWD platform it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars - and that cost would be passed on in a higher price. That would place the TL at the same price point as the IS 350 & BWM.
Honda is not just trying to make nice cars that people want - they also want to make a profit at it. Not saying the company is run by accountants - but that they are good business people. IMO the same hold true at Toyota.
As aside note, when will acura offer other great luxury features and a 6 speed automatic? Yea blue tooth and the nav are great but so are a Panoramic Roof, Push Button Start(without the Slot), and Heated AND COOLED seats!!
-Cj :shades:
While I agree there would be some additional costs, I think you are grossly overstating the magnitude.
Honda designed and produced a limited edition, hand built roadster in the S2000 that doesn't share a single major part or component with any other Honda or Acura period. Unique platform, unique engine, unique (and expensive) in wheel suspension,..... The amount of ground up engineering in that car makes a TL, or RL for that matter, look like a Model T. And even limited to under 10,000 units a year worldwide, the S2000 is priced about the same as mass produced TL which sells more vehicles in one year than all S2000's that have been built since it was introduced in 2000.
I suspect that going to RWD on the TL would add a nominal amount (i.e a couple hundred dollars, at most) to the cost of the car amortized over 4-5 years of production. And again, I think that cost could be more than offset by increased combined sales of an upgraded FWD Accord and a more ELLPS competitive RWD TL.
Cost aside, the value to Acura for increased prestige as moving towards becoming a true upscale brand: "priceless".
There is no rule the RWD is required to be a good sports sedan. Remember, Acura's priority with the TL is to be a Touring Luxury Sedan. The TL handles admirably for a vehicle with 60% of it weight on the front wheels!! Same for the TSX.
If RWD is to be on any model, it should be the RL, MDX, and Nsx. The TL, TSX, and Csx are are good handling FWD sedans.
In fact, all hondas vehicles handle well for FWD. Its true they aren't as fun to drive as a RWD car, but Acura has it down with the AWD thing.
RWD will leave you in trouble in the snow but FWD and AWD won't as easily. The AWD mdx is just about as good a handler as the X5.
And for the record, making the TL RWD won't make it cost a few hundred more. It be a minimum of 5k more. You must factor in the price for development, parts, and equipment.
Then a new engine as hondas engines are optimized in the front. AWD isn't as complicated. Then with RWD you loose the good things about the TL like the smallish trunk for a smaller one. The RWD components do take trunk space. Then the decent interior space becomes smaller because of the Transmission tunnel having to take up that much more space.
Ever notice that no honda even uses the S2000s engine... A RWD TL should start in the boring RL's and 530(5)is territory $43,000 base with no nav or even a 6speed manual. A RWD compromises to much for acura. The RL needs the fun to drive factor to go up before any big changes can be made to the TL.
-Cj
I have 24,000 miles on my 2004 TL 6-speed that I have owned since May 2004.
And, I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with both your statements the TL (even the 6-speed) is a "Performance sedan" and that RWD isn't required for a "good sports sedan". The TL is an excellent balance of sportiNESS, luxury and value. It is NOT a serious sports sedan by my definition or any serious enthusiasts I know. If you try to drive it like one, you will have your hands full with torque steer, wheel hop and plowing through corners. It is a fun to drive good handling car under normal driving conditions, but it is not a 3 or 5 series when pushed hard.
Also, now that the 2007 "base" TL only comes with an automatic, softer suspension and non-Brembo brakes compared to my 2004 6-speed, it has even dropped out of my definition of "sporty". Acura now requires one to pony up for a TL-S to deserve that adjective.
"And for the record, making the TL RWD won't make it cost a few hundred more. It be a minimum of 5k more. You must factor in the price for development, parts, and equipment."
Not to be rude, but that's just pure B.S.. Where did that wild [non-permissible content removed] figure come from? I've casually studied the (real) economics of the automotive business and obtained some actual financial data on the development cost of the Honda S2000 (which I also owned). If merely switching to a RWD platform added $5,000 to the cost of the TL, all of the ground up engineering technology that went into the limited production Honda S2000 would have resulted in a price tag of $100,000 by your math.
My first new car, a rear wheel drive 1978 Datsun B210GX, cost $4,200, including taxes. The smaller FWD Honda Civic CCRV cost closer to $5,000 and employed "more expensive" FWD transverse mounted engine engineering.
You need to get your facts straight. The actual cost difference between FWD and RWD is minimal. And, while you're getting your facts straight, try test driving a 335i 6-speed and TL-S 6-speed side by side on a route that you can really test their driving dynamics without endangering the public. Perhaps they are equivalent by your definition of "performance" but certainly not mine.
A car like the s2000 IMO should cost $25k not $33k. Nothing IMO about the s2000 says $33k. Its price came from the R&D of it and its parts, its engine, and its power top and glass. All of this is new for honda and is costly to develop.
You can go ahead and spend nearly $45k on a 335i with the same features you can get on the Bigger, cheaper, FAMILY oriented Tl.
A RWD Tl will increase weight too much. Yeah it would be better distributed but its will be slower.
The TL weighs <100 more than the 3 and <100 of the 5 series.
Size and feature wise, doesnt the TL compete with the 5, s60/80, ES and GS?
-Cj