General Motors Fans

fintail

I don't think the issue is manufacturers in Mexico. As you say, Mexico is a large market and has a huge consumer base. Many have issue with the products being sold here to replace products once made here. It's the same for any low wage labor area, like China (some here are rooting for Chinese cars to hit our shores, I can't fathom that one).

Mr_Shiftright

The issue seems to be that someone has the idea that they can force global corporations to put loyalty to their sovereign state over profits for themselves and their stockholders. Are you kidding me?

berri

The fence or wall - they will just tunnel under it like the drug dealers. What a waste of money for political PR grandstanding!

Tariffs - companies will either add it into prices or just decide not to offer the affected model for sale in the US. It will also encourage auto manufacturers to look to increasing plant automation here. Don't see a burst of manufacturing jobs out of it, but do see reduced competition and resulting increasing prices as a result. Whatever, stockholders gain, consumers and workers don't.

Mr_Shiftright

I've reviewed the "Wall Plan" and its economics, as stated thus far by the power that be, and it's absurd.

All I'm seeing from this right now is an increase in the national debt, highly increased tensions with Mexico, and a foul business climate.

fintail

Well, until we have some legitimate fair trade policies, that's indeed true. There's some logic behind it - if an entity takes advantage of the conditions in a developed economy, paid dearly for by those in it and those who built it, and then betrays it by running offshore, it can be seen as kind of treacherous.

I find stockholder profit arguments to be funny. The amount of stock held by normal people is irrelevant compared to the amount held by those who have been able to amass so much, they don't have to worry about trade issues.

I don't believe there will be an actual wall.

Mr_Shiftright said:

The issue seems to be that someone has the idea that they can force global corporations to put loyalty to their sovereign state over profits for themselves and their stockholders. Are you kidding me?

dieselone

True. What I hold in stock is irrelevant in aggregate to the economy and the 1%, but it's very relevant to me. Trade issues will matter if it limits my choices and cost (besides employment).

I hope you're right on the wall, that is insanity and will accomplish little! IMO

tlong

fintail said:

I dislike the direct replacement much more than the current choice, should be be forced to vacate, so I wish him the best

This is a world of abysmal options. The good thing about life is that it takes the trenches to appreciate the tops of the hills.

tlong

dieselone said:

.

I hope you're right on the wall, that is insanity and will accomplish little! IMO

The thing is, if you are one to want the immigration rules to be followed, there are already laws on the books and we don't seem to want to enforce them. People come here out of economic benefit. If you truly couldn't work and make money you would not come here. You wouldn't need a wall at huge $$ and absurdity.

This country with supposed "rule of law" has some laws it likes, and enforces, and others it doesn't like, so doesn't enforce. So we choose to look the other way (sanctuary cities anybody?). Ultimately a decision should be made on whether we follow our laws, and repeal them if we don't like them. But adding a multi-billion $$ wall layered on top of the existing insanity is not the way to solve anything.

Regarding trade and its effects on autos, I see economics as a bit like fighting thermodynamics. You can't stop the inevitable. You can cheat it locally, or for a time, but over the long haul you can't resist reality. If we are expensive, and the same skills and labor are cheaper elsewhere, then the entire picture is going to normalize over time. And we aren't going to change that.

uplanderguy

The "Big Three" have been in Mexico since the 1930s.

Perhaps, but no one has seen Mexican automobiles in the U.S. since the 1930's, that is a certainty.

I never saw a Mexican-assembled GM product at a dealer until after NAFTA.

His style is abrasive for sure, but to me there's no bad in increasing U.S. production as opposed to farming it out. But as we've talked about before, I come from a rust-belt perspective and you live in California.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

The "Big Three" have been in Mexico since the 1930s.

Perhaps, but no one has seen Mexican automobiles in the U.S. since the 1930's, that is a certainty.

I never saw a Mexican-assembled GM product at a dealer until after NAFTA.

His style is abrasive for sure, but to me there's no bad in increasing U.S. production as opposed to farming it out. But as we've talked about before, I come from a rust-belt perspective and you live in California.

I agree with the emotional side of this argument, but...

Why aren't we upset about Canadian production?
What happens when Mexico decides they don't want our produce imported to them if they can't import their cars to us?
How will the US economy do if many goods become more expensive?

It's not all the good side of the story. There are a lot of tradeoffs and no answers are going to give you some panacea solution.

dieselone

I had an '89 mercury tracer made in Mexico. So there were some vehicles coming from Mexico pre Nafta.

uplanderguy

I saw new Monte Carlos and Monzas over forty years ago at my hometown Chevy dealer, that were built in Ontario and Quebec, respectively. I'd feel similarly about Cruzes being built in Canada if that were the case. I do believe it's obvious that the reasons for Mexican production versus Ohio production are that costs in Mexico are such that no Americans could do the work for that pay.

I think, dieselone, we'd all be hard-pressed to come up with a single other car sold in the U.S. that came from Mexico, pre-NAFTA--particularly one that previously was built in the U.S.

fintail

I have no problem with Canadian production, as it is a developed first world economy (in a few ways maybe more so than Murka), and at one time the basis for factories there was Canadian and export consumption. I suppose my opinion is moot though, as most of the cars in my life haven't been purchased new, and I like cars made across an ocean

Produce might be kind of small potatoes (not literally, most of those are domestic ), I suspect we import a lot more of theirs than they import ours. Mexico has a lot more to lose in a trade war, but I suspect it won't come to that - bigmouth will be cut off before it gets out of hand. Presidents are puppets, and this one will be no different. I didn't choose him, but I have no problem admitting he isn't 100% wrong, and I hope he can make something work.

Regarding "normalize", I also use "race to the bottom". The greatest wealth transfer in the history of the USA has been over the past 40 years, as many working class jobs vanished for the benefit of a relative few, and the socio-economic gap has approached 100-year highs. This trend is not going to change. I fear there will be another wealth transfer soon, this time from working and middle class people in terms of energy and transportation, to benefit speculative investors in specific realms, and coddled public sector regulator and guilted silly social engineer types. This is a new Belle Epoque, and we should remember what ended the last one.

Likely, the cat is out of the bag forever, starting when some crooks and cons opened things up about 45 years ago. I believe we will see some kind of guaranteed minimum income before any of this is ever resolved or reversed. It might be the only way to hold off legitimate revolt. Welcome to the post-industrial world.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

The "Big Three" have been in Mexico since the 1930s.

Perhaps, but no one has seen Mexican automobiles in the U.S. since the 1930's, that is a certainty.

I never saw a Mexican-assembled GM product at a dealer until after NAFTA.

His style is abrasive for sure, but to me there's no bad in increasing U.S. production as opposed to farming it out. But as we've talked about before, I come from a rust-belt perspective and you live in California.

It's really not a question of where you live. Robots have the jobs and they never get tired. Automakers ability to increase productivity has been a major factor in their success and in the decrease of jobs at plants.

The jobs you long for are never coming back. Governments need to spur investment to create new types of jobs. To promise aging autoworkers their jobs back is cruel, it really is.

The reason you didn't see Mexican cars in the USA was because of smog regulations of course. They weren't built to U.S. spec. Once that was ironed out, then it was a no-brainer to build in Mexico. Here you pay $32 an hour, there $8 an hour, Germany maybe $42 an hour.

If you want that killer deal on a new car, that's the cost of it.

berri

I'm pretty sure Mexican illegals entries have been declining over the past few years as their economy has been improving. Not only will the wall cost billions while people tunnel under it, but the maintenance costs will chew up additional dough for as long as it is maintained. It is an expensive PR program because anyone who is in business knows you consider total cost of ownership before making the investment (and that also includes the cost of the debt which will increase as our interest rates go up). Sadly that will probably be money diverted from our country infrastructure that is beginning to fail. The wall is built as roads, sewers, water systems fail. Meanwhile we start getting compared to the old Communist Berlin.

uplanderguy

For me, as a personal purchase decision, it's quite simple. I'm looking at a new Cruze and I'd much rather one built locally than in another country. Technology isn't the reason for Mexican production in the Cruze's case; that obvious other reason is. The rest is all window dressing.

berri

You don't have to defend your preference to buy local, it is a perfectly legitimate buying criteria. What I find funny is that I think Ford is already outwitting the president elects marketeering. He takes credit for keeping things in the US, while Ford rides on that and gets out of a Mexico commitment that no longer makes sense on current economics. The Focus will still ultimately be manufactured in Mexico for 2018, but Ford gets to back out of its previous commitment for new brick and mortar down there while Washington will take the blame from the Mexicans. Ultimately jobs stay the same for the US plants. There is no employment increase here that the president elect seems to imply.

uplanderguy

I thought that Ford was now going to add on to a Michigan plant that wasn't in the plans before, but I haven't been following that story nearly as much as the local Cruze story here.

Also, responding to an earlier comment, the difference in MSRP between Mexican and Ohio Cruze production, doesn't filter down to me, the retail customer. I can actually buy an Ohio-built one less than the Mexican-built one (because the Mexican built one is a hatchback).

Mr_Shiftright

There's no such thing as an "American-built" car anymore. At best, you'd find a Chevy Traverse or Honda Accord at 80% American content. Most others are far less.

So the whole idea is a myth.

fintail

100% of X content is impossible, but knowing where a vehicle is assembled is a very realistic goal. You won't see a Chinese-assembled vehicle in my garage unless the place experiences a massive political shift.

On that subject, one should notice that many items in stores now don't carry a location of manufacture. I wonder who paid for that in this budding oligocracy?

My Sindelfingen-built MB has only 71% German content, likely due to electronics and outsourced bits. Funny thing, MB moved production of simple electronics such as relays to cheaper locations in Hungary/CZR/Poland 20 years ago, yet Germany hasn't abandoned its industrial base in the name of trickle down BS unlike another place that I know of.

dieselone

True, a tundra has more domestic content than my Ram, plus both have hq overseas. Which is more domestic?

Uplander, you certainly don't need to defend your pref to buy from your local plant!

Mr_Shiftright

There probably hasn't been a 100% American content car since the Model T Ford!

berri

I think Ford is just adding workload to Flat Rock in Michigan. I believe it has some open capacity and much of the added work is electric vehicle related.

berri

Someday China will probably crap out all US vehicles with hidden software in their electronics ? I think this reliance on them for electronic components is potentially very dangerous. Plus they are accomplished hackers against a country that hasn't put sufficient effort and money into cyberspace.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

I thought that Ford was now going to add on to a Michigan plant that wasn't in the plans before, but I haven't been following that story nearly as much as the local Cruze story here.

Also, responding to an earlier comment, the difference in MSRP between Mexican and Ohio Cruze production, doesn't filter down to me, the retail customer. I can actually buy an Ohio-built one less than the Mexican-built one (because the Mexican built one is a hatchback).

On the other hand, if you are a fan of GM, and if they've had trouble staying profitable in down times, then keeping costs low will help the company survive. Or is the better answer keep the costs high (and local) and just get bailed out by the taxpayers again?

Mr_Shiftright

Americans can't have it both ways---they want cheaper stuff or they'll have to pay double to have it built in the U.S.

fintail

With the way wages haven't kept pace with cost of living, I don't know of it is "want" or "need". Yet another race to the bottom.

berri

Not "let them eat cake", but instead, "we'll send a few crumbs their way".

Mr_Shiftright

Trickle Down Economics Explained:

You are at a banquet as part of the wait staff. When the banquet is over, the guests, having eaten all they can, will then pack up the leftovers into napkins and baskets. They will then roll up the tablecloths, flowers, silverware, glassware, etc, into a huge ball and drag that out of the banquet hall.

If anything falls out, that's yours!

dieselone

My wife ordered her next company car to replace her '13 Taurus. Second time in a row GM not an option. How times have changed, she will be getting her first company car not from the big 3. A '17 Sonata Hybrid is on it's way.

We were bored yesterday so we took one for a test drive. I haven't been in a Hyundai years, I will say I was impressed overall. Glad we get to sample a Hybrid w/o having to pay for the premium or worry about any potential repair costs. Though it seems Hybrids have been reliable overall.

Outside of being dated and not the best design, we've had 2 current gen Taurus' that have been trouble free. The current one is about to turn 100k. Only issue is a tire pressure sensor that's gone MIA setting of the lower tire pressure warning recently. It's still rattle free, I guess those old Volvo bones are good for something;)

uplanderguy

Yes, location of final assembly/engine assembly/transmission assembly is all on a GM window sticker, but none of it is factored into the parts content percentage on the label....according to the GM label itself. Those things are relevant, IMHO. It's easy to compartmentalize, of course, based on one's own taste in automobiles. Heck, I like Woody Allen movies but I know I shouldn't for various reasons, LOL!

uplanderguy

Are any cars assembled in CA anymore? I'm guessing Toyota is still probably building in the old NUMMI plant in Fremont. I know GM used to have a plant in Van Nuys which is long-gone. Studebaker built in Vernon for 18 years.

dieselone

I don't know about Toyota, but Tesla manufactures cars in California. My boss has a Model S P85 (I think) which I've ridden in. Neat car. Actually, I think tesla uses the old NUMNI plant.

dieselone

Speaking of electric cars, the Bolt appears impressive, just doesn't wow in the styling department. There the new Tesla Model 3 looks better. I like gadgets, so an electric car appeals to me for something to run around town in.

Mr_Shiftright

If Americans need a "villain" who stole American jobs, here he is:

fintail

Do we have definitive pics of the Model 3 yet? Educated guesses would have it looking like a smaller elongated egg, I mean Model S, but I don't think anything is concrete yet. I also doubt it will be on schedule.

NUMMI closed in 2010, and is now the Tesla factory.

Automation is a factor in industrial job losses, but far from the only factor.

berri

I think George Orwell is still with us somewhere besides a book store

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Do we have definitive pics of the Model 3 yet? Educated guesses would have it looking like a smaller elongated egg, I mean Model S, but I don't think anything is concrete yet. I also doubt it will be on schedule.

NUMMI closed in 2010, and is now the Tesla factory.

Automation is a factor in industrial job losses, but far from the only factor.

Forbes says 45% of all jobs have gone, or will go, to robots. This I think concerns unskilled labor jobs. Then, after that, robots will (and already have) moved into sales and communications jobs.

The flip side of that coin is that the economy is constantly creating new jobs. That's why unemployment won't go up 45% because of robots.

So rather than pounding on "lost jobs" as being caused by globalization done by automakers, one should look at the overall economy and overall unemployment rates, which are actually not bad at all.

The people who are going to suffer the most are the ones who cannot, or won't retrain for the new jobs. How much of that is the "fault" of anything or anyone is debatable, to say the least.

This is why Forbes has also presented very good evidence that the POTUS cannot much change what the economy itself wishes to do.

fintail

I think we will hit a time when there will have to be a guaranteed minimum income. It might stop the march towards torches, pitchforks, and guillotines. Will job creation keep up with population growth? I have my doubts, especially in the long term.

Unemployment might technically be low by using cherrypicked data, but underemployment is not low, and wages have not kept pace with many cost of living factors. When one cannot retrain due to endless factors, while we experience the greatest socio-economic gap since before the depression, IMO, some can be blamed.

No doubt the POTUS - current or elect - will not solve the issues. Neither of them have actual workable plans. Nice pie in the sky dreams, those are what win votes.

Mr_Shiftright

Whether the economy tanks or booms during a particular presidency is really all a matter of luck. Automakers had no control over, say, OPEC in the 70s, or California's emissions requirements (largest market in the USA). What presidential "order" could have changed those things? None, of course.

fintail

He's in charge of public policy in Britain, most of western Europe, and Australia. Some here love those ideals, too. Look for it soon in your backyard

berri said:

I think George Orwell is still with us somewhere besides a book store

uplanderguy

There's no doubt that automation has reduced jobs in the auto industry--but as we've been discussing, you can still choose built here, or built there. I'm of the belief that there is no bad in getting more skilled jobs in the U.S. instead of sending them elsewhere. I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion until I can tell you that I finally blew some dust out of my wallet and bought a Cruze! I'm debating until spring now; why flog a new car through tons of salt we have. I don't know that the rebates will be the same then though of course.

sda

uplanderguy said:

There's no doubt that automation has reduced jobs in the auto industry--but as we've been discussing, you can still choose built here, or built there. I'm of the belief that there is no bad in getting more skilled jobs in the U.S. instead of sending them elsewhere. I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion until I can tell you that I finally blew some dust out of my wallet and bought a Cruze! I'm debating until spring now; why flog a new car through tons of salt we have. I don't know that the rebates will be the same then though of course.

Congratulations! Tell us about it, color, equipment, etc.

dieselone

Congrats uplander, sounds like a deal that's hard to pass up.

dieselone

Yeah, I don't know how accurate pics are on the model 3 and it appears it will not be on time.

The Bolt looks impressive, I wish it didn't look so pedestrian (at least to my eyes). Outside of styling it appears to hit the mark.

uplanderguy

I didn't buy one; it does look like I worded it poorly! I meant there was really nothing I could add to the discussion now, unless/until I bought one!

I have $5,500 off, combined, on top of the dealer's best offer, based on GM Goodwill cash and GM Mastercard rebate I have. Of course, not everybody gets that, but it sure makes a low-priced car even more tempting.

I'd like an LT, but I'm focused on price. Still mulling it all over. Wife says she doesn't care. I am a cheapskate though. My friend says his wife is so cheap when she squeezes a nickel, the buffalo...well, you know.

When I do, I'm debating between bright red or light metallic blue. The family says 'red'.

dieselone

Excuse my reading comprehension skills;)
How much more would an LT trim level cost? $1k or so? Over the time you'll own the car it's worth getting what you want. That's only $100/yr over 10 years;) I'm 99% sure you'll enjoy the extra features more than you'll miss the money.

uplanderguy

I'd have to look, but I think it's more like $1,500 or $2,000. The thing I like most is the aluminum wheels over thin-as-paper-looking plastic wheelcovers. But again, I own four cars now and $$ factors in.

sda

uplanderguy said:

I didn't buy one; it does look like I worded it poorly! I meant there was really nothing I could add to the discussion now, unless/until I bought one!

I have $5,500 off, combined, on top of the dealer's best offer, based on GM Goodwill cash and GM Mastercard rebate I have. Of course, not everybody gets that, but it sure makes a low-priced car even more tempting.

I'd like an LT, but I'm focused on price. Still mulling it all over. Wife says she doesn't care. I am a cheapskate though. My friend says his wife is so cheap when she squeezes a nickel, the buffalo...well, you know.

When I do, I'm debating between bright red or light metallic blue. The family says 'red'.

Sorry, my bad. My daughter was talking to me while I was reading, not very good at multi-tasking, which my wife is forever reminding me. ha

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

There's no doubt that automation has reduced jobs in the auto industry--but as we've been discussing, you can still choose built here, or built there. I'm of the belief that there is no bad in getting more skilled jobs in the U.S. instead of sending them elsewhere. I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion until I can tell you that I finally blew some dust out of my wallet and bought a Cruze! I'm debating until spring now; why flog a new car through tons of salt we have. I don't know that the rebates will be the same then though of course.

I rented one recently and quite liked it. I think in its category that it's an excellent choice.