General Motors Fans

berri

I think it is all maybe a bit more complicated than TPP. The strengthening dollar comes into play for countries like China. It makes their currency an advantage for trading internationally, but it also drives up interest rates and commodity prices over time that may not be all that good for China at their current point in time. They are dealing with some near bubbles from their country investments like real estate, business capital exposure in things like steel, etc. Bottom line - who the heck knows!

Mr_Shiftright

As America closes down in Asia, China will open up. They are already negotiating somewhat less ambitious trade deals of their own regional, such as RCEP and FTAAP. And China was really beating the drum for alliances at this year's APEC summit in Peru.

As Chinese leaders like to say: "America can be an Asian presence whenever it wants to or doesn't want to, but China is here to stay".

As for GM, the loss of TPP might blunt their move into emerging markets, and with the U.S. market pretty saturated, this is probably not good news. However, Canada's auto industry might be relieved to see TPP ditched, as it would decrease competition from other auto parts suppliers (Canada makes a lot of parts).

It's complicated, for sure, and I certainly don't have a handle on it.

Best we can say is that America's Asian allies are none too pleased right now.

fintail

Make China Great Again

Actually, that seems to be the goal of treacherous western business and governmental leaders over the past 40 years or so. People who have business interests there will be pleased.

On a positive note, today I saw a new Lacrosse, which I believe is derived from the Chinese-spec model. A lot more impressive looking than prior models.

elias

For a Flint-built Mini-Cruze sedan or HB, at half the price of the Cruze HB,
take a look at SONIC. it's mini but not micro.
We are happy with our 2015 stickshift LT, it was fine for the boston to buffalo roundtrip to see the New England Patriots with Gronk defeat the Bills. Zero complaints, zero oddities were noted on that trip, along with zero Gronk injuries. 7K miles now, and the LED dashboard now indicates "cHaNGe" the oil in that oldschool way of not-enough-LED-elements-for-real-fonts.

By comparison, there are some software oddities in 2015 Chevy SS, although it remains a 1000x better car than Sonic. The SS software exhibited a couple of odd unreproducible behaviors during my end-of-summer boston to san jose roundtrip via Omaha & MN. 21k miles now. The weirdest was total silence from the speakers for a couple hours - even the turn-signal clicks were absent.

Sonic integrated bluetooth allows cellphone dashboard dialing/touchtones while moving.
But SS does not allow it.
I've been avoiding a recall/TSB where GM might be reprogramming the Sonic mylink to disallow the dashboard-dialing-while-driving along with fixing the bug where seatbelt chime is silent if phone is connected by bluetooth without bluetooth audio being selected as the car head unit's audio input. Along with the free oil change, they will apply any mandatory "campaigns" to the car too. They finally have the weird looking seat-bottom-cover in stock for the SS/cop-car seatbelt recall too.. My SS doesn't need that somewhat unsightly recall given my usage of the car, so I'd actually like to avoid it - but that's practically impossible to do.

imidazol97

elias said:

For a Flint-built Mini-Cruze sedan or HB, at half the price of the Cruze HB, take a look at SONIC. it's mini but not micro.

Nice write up from an owner. I was impressed with the Sonic. I have been hoping my dealer will give me a loaner when I take one of our cars in but didn't get it. I'd like to drive a Sonic. But I did ride home in one with the shuttle service the dealer gives--door-to-door.

elias said:

The SS software exhibited a couple of odd unreproducible behaviors during my end-of-summer boston to san jose roundtrip via Omaha & MN. 21k miles now. The weirdest was total silence from the speakers for a couple hours - even the turn-signal clicks were absent.

Did this continue after the car was off for more than 30 seconds and then restarted? Is it possible it went into a mute radio stage? Do the extra sounds turn off too when radio is muted? If not that, I'd susupect a bug in something related to the phone/bluetooth system.

I'd ask if there's an update.

fintail

My sister has had a Sonic for 4 years now, bought it new. Other than the rear windshield that mysteriously broke soon after purchase, no issues at all.

berri

Is that the tiny Chevy that looks like it has wagon wheels?

Michaell

berri said:

Is that the tiny Chevy that looks like it has wagon wheels?

I think you're referring to the Spark.

berri

Thanks

sda

fintail said:

My sister has had a Sonic for 4 years now, bought it new. Other than the rear windshield that mysteriously broke soon after purchase, no issues at all.

I've been asked to help find a good friend's daughter a car that she could drive several hours away to college. Around 10k budget. Ideally a CR-V or RAV-4. At that price range they are old and miled up. I have found a few Sonic LTs for around $9.5k with less than 45k mi. CR gives them a good review. I'm thinking a Sonic would be a good car for her needs and would be newer and has many of the advanced safety features. Thoughts?

Mr_Shiftright

Well there's certainly plenty of Chevy dealers around for service and independent shops know how to work on them. She could easily get a 2014 model for that budget, whereas a CR-V you'd be lucky to find a nice 2010 for the same money but double the miles.

Downside? In 2 years it'll be worth $6500 or less.

Michaell

Sonic hatch or sedan? Have you moved a female student into a dorm room? A CR-V may not be big enough.

But, I like your logic. Small car with good gas mileage and easy to maintain, plus all the current tech and safety features.

I assume there is no bad weather to contend with?

fintail

I'm not an expert on them, but my sister is pleased with hers. She bought it new for like 12 or 14K, September clearance of leftover models, and hers is well-optioned. I bet there are bargains out there.

sda said:

I've been asked to help find a good friend's daughter a car that she could drive several hours away to college. Around 10k budget. Ideally a CR-V or RAV-4. At that price range they are old and miled up. I have found a few Sonic LTs for around $9.5k with less than 45k mi. CR gives them a good review. I'm thinking a Sonic would be a good car for her needs and would be newer and has many of the advanced safety features. Thoughts?

elias

The SS speaker silence cleared after rest-area stop & restart near the Great Salt Lake. Later I reported it to dealership to no avail, no repro for them of course, and it's already got the latest updates. There will always be more software bugs than there are updates available to fix the bugs. Also, no, the steering-wheel audio muting doesn't/didn't affect the turn-signal clicks. They are supposed to work always. If the turn-signal-click-muting recurs, I will notify NHTSA as that would probably violate a federal requirement or two. On the other hand, most folks find the clicks to be absurdly loud!

Yes SDA, Sonic it's a good car for kid->college. Great for city too. It is 100% effective/good/basic car, all the good safety features and bluetooth phone integration. I can verify that ABS Brakes & factory tires & stability-control were very effective when I stood on the brakes on highway slowing down from 70->40 a couple days ago. Handling is fine at low speed, and is designed with massive "push" (understeer) at higher speed, which is best for rookie drivers.

When my better half tells people she has a Sonic, most people respond "Never heard of it."

When she tells people I have a Chevy Not-A-Camaro SS they usually say "yeah, Camaros are great."

uplanderguy

I think this recent reporting on GM building Cruze hatchbacks in Mexico--which is true--is a bunch of hooey. It's a PR problem at the moment for GM now, but it's astounding to me how many news stories don't seem to understand that the hatch is a different model than the sedan. The sedans are built at Lordstown. The hatch is only recently introduced to the U.S. market and that is why, IMHO, the shipments to the U.S. have only been a fraction of the sedan shipments--the sedan has been built for much longer. It's a little intellectually dishonest, in my mind, to say the sedan is outselling the hatch by 40-to-1. I think the hatch only has up to go and in most car lines where a hatch and sedan are sold, sometimes the hatch even outsells the sedan.

I wish they'd built the hatch in Lordstown. Politics notwithstanding, LOL.

All that said, my dealer has a glut of sedans and the hatches they have are fairly recent additions to inventory.

sda

Even though it is widely known that discounts from MSRP are common and expected I wonder if just looking at the initial sticker price provides enough shock that the potential new owner just moves on to something else. Cruzes and Malibus seem to be priced on the high end of competition. They are nice cars but I think they need to be priced more appropriately to make them more attractive to buyers.

uplanderguy

My dealer is advertising on their site, base Cruze LS (automatic) sedans at $18,400 (sticker $20,400). Right now I have $2,500 in customer goodwill cash and $3,000 in GM card cash on top of whatever the dealer's best offer is. I'm sorely tempted but my Cobalt just keeps on, keepin' on.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

I think this recent reporting on GM building Cruze hatchbacks in Mexico--which is true--is a bunch of hooey.

Oh I don't think we've even begun to see all the hooey we are going to have over the next four years.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

My dealer is advertising on their site, base Cruze LS (automatic) sedans at $18,400 (sticker $20,400). Right now I have $2,500 in customer goodwill cash and $3,000 in GM card cash on top of whatever the dealer's best offer is. I'm sorely tempted but my Cobalt just keeps on, keepin' on.

You only live once uplander!

berri

GM seems to think listing high and then discounting high pricing works. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But I think it certainly has the potential to keep armchair researchers away from their dealers and models.

Our elected officials thrive on hooey and deception. Most seem to come out of there as millionaires. As I understand it, while there are ethical restrictions on military officers and civil servants, the elected representatives can actually legally trade on insider information. This as they prosecute business people for the same thing. Not to mention the perks from lobbyists. Frankly, don't see it changing anytime soon. Why else would people spend millions running for office that pays mostly under $200K?

uplanderguy

For 'hooey', I was getting at the way the story was reported. The Cruze hatchback is absolutely, positively built in Mexico. I've seen "news" headlines that say "Trump says Cruze built in Mexico; GM says Ohio", which is intellectually dishonest.

GM's press release on the whole thing yesterday said that Mexican Cruzes make up only 3% of production, but that's a bit shady, as the hatchback is just out. No one can tell me that that is the plan. If in one year it's at 3% of production, I'd say it's a safe bet it'll be discontinued. I think clearly, the plan would've been to ramp up production of hatches. In car lines that have both a sedan and a hatch, the hatch often ends up selling better.

uplanderguy

A brand new Ohio-built Cruze with auto, air, PW, et al for $12,900 is sounding tempting to me, LOL

And vaunted CR gives it high marks.

Younger daughter has two more years of Miami University though.

fintail

Go for it, uplander. Your daughter might say YOLO

You need to do this now so you can get a Stude when she graduates.

uplanderguy

You need to do this now so you can get a Stude when she graduates.

Reading my mind, fin!

berri

"UP"lander your game and go for the Malibu!

Mr_Shiftright

tlong said:

uplanderguy said:

My dealer is advertising on their site, base Cruze LS (automatic) sedans at $18,400 (sticker $20,400). Right now I have $2,500 in customer goodwill cash and $3,000 in GM card cash on top of whatever the dealer's best offer is. I'm sorely tempted but my Cobalt just keeps on, keepin' on.

You only live once uplander!

I just rented a Cruze and you know I thought it was a pretty decent get-around automobile, compared to others in its class that I have rented recently. No grievous faults popped out at me. Oh, I thought the E-brake application was a bit tedious, and on the one I rented the rear view camera stayed on when you switched to drive--you had to keep jiggling it.

dieselone

I just had a 16 Impala as a rental. Overall nice car. MUCH better than the previous Impala and probably as competent as anything else in it's class.

Granted it was a rental with 40k miles on it, the only real issue was the outside temp sensor read negative 40 degrees. Mind you I was in Miami. So this was an issue. The HVAC would output hot air unless you selected "lo" for temp level, then it would go full cold A/C mode. Nothing in between. My solution was to keep the fan on low. I was to busy to complain so I dealt with it. Thankfully it was warm in Miami last week.

Anyway, it was quiet, drove well enough, had plenty of room, and seemed like a nice car.

anythngbutgm

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/01/05/is-gm-telling-truth-about-its-cars-mexican-made-cruze-sedans-found-at-u-s-dealerships.html

berri

But your US made vehicles often have substantial Mexican parts. It is global now with no easy or cost effective way of changing things. If you start tariffs the result unfortunately is going to be higher prices and fewer choices. I get a little concerned about the focus on tariffs rather than "fair" trade. Herbert Hoover came into office with an accompanying surging stock market. He went the tariff route and we ended up with the depression.

fintail

"big border tax", yeah, that'll fix what ails us. LOL this is going to be a spectacle, which will probably generate business school case studies to be used for generations.

uplanderguy

I have yet to see a Cruze sedan built in Mexico, but all of the hatchbacks are built there. Recently, they laid off the third shift at Lordstown. I do think it's intellectually dishonest to say that only 3% of Cruzes come from Mexico, when that's the only place the hatch is built and it's only recently introduced.

All that said, I'd buy a Lordstown one as it benefits our local economy and I like the car, and CR said early reports show it was the most reliable compact car in their survey, but I do believe it's pretty early. Personally, I've had positive results with my Chevys and nearby service availability.

I have noticed the U.S./Canadian content has declined from the '16 to the '17 models, per the window sticker. The cars appear almost identical. I hate that.

My dealer has one leftover '16 (new style). With the $5,500 I have off in various owner benefits, it could be bought for $11,400.00. Certainly can't complain about that.

We've discussed this ad-nauseum on other Edmunds forums, but the final assembly, engine assembly, and transmission assembly locations are not calculated in the parts-percentage on the window sticker.

uplanderguy

CR said that no model car except a Tesla ever scored higher in their testing than the current Impala LTZ (called 'Premier' for '17). Just for those who hang on their every word. Just kidding.

sda

I like the Impala, just wish I could see out of it better. 'Premier' reminds me of a Chrysler product such as the Plymouth Volare Premier which a friend's father had. I guess "Premier" is better than Brougham and it isn't a metal like 'Titanium or Platinum'.

imidazol97

sda said:

I like the Impala, just wish I could see out of it better. 'Premier' reminds me of a Chrysler product such as the Plymouth Volare Premier which a friend's father had. I guess "Premier" is better than Brougham and it isn't a metal like 'Titanium or Platinum'.

Choosing those model names is a problem. When I hear Premier it means less to me than LS, LT, 2LT, LTZ. Not to start an off topic, GM, discussion, but the word SkyActive on the trunk of certain cars is also confusing?

Hatchback? I just looked at one in the showroom at a local Chevy store. They have a used Volt in the corral as well.

sda

Exactly. I lift the hood on the Accord and 'Earth Dreams' is plastered on the valve cover. what??
Though I admit I liked some of the older descriptions such as Sky-Rocket, Turbo-Jet, Wild Cat. At least those sound powerful.

berri

Impala would make good used buy. It has a fairly high depreciation rate because big sedans aren't popular right now, so new you'd want to keep it for awhile I think. But heck yeah, it is a nice car at that price point.

uplanderguy

I like the styling of the Impala better than the Buick LaCrosse which is the same platform.

I'd have to have a 'Premier', because I'd have to have that chromed side molding. To me, lesser models look naked without them.

dieselone

True, the impala is not easy to see out of, particularly when backing up. But it's hardly alone. My wife's Taurus is just as bad. Rear camera is a must.

dieselone

True Fin, I think the next 4 years will provide text for a lot of different areas of study;)

dieselone

$11,400 for a brand new car like a Cruze is a heck of a deal.

Mr_Shiftright

Putting a tariff on a single manufacturer isn't even legal in international law. Somebody needs to hit the books a lot harder.

tlong

Mr_Shiftright said:

Putting a tariff on a single manufacturer isn't even legal in international law. Somebody needs to hit the books a lot harder.

Some people don't even read books, they even have trouble spelling correctly on twitter.

Mr_Shiftright

Dreamworld? Meet "Reality".

fintail

Reading? That would be unpresidented

berri

He needs to chill a bit or that new job is going to give him a heart attack. Looks like fights and turnover in his organization already, several weeks before the inauguration has even taken place. "Planned chaos" I'm sure

Mr_Shiftright

Leaving the politics aside, just the economics of building a 2000 mile wall + a trade war puts up some truly staggering numbers to contemplate.

I see Mexico bleeding more than the USA in a trade war, but that's only because we are so much stronger economically. Both sides will bleed. Lots of unknowable effects as well.

People are talking about huge rolls of the dice here and questionable benefits.

fintail

Living on the southern border right now has to be awkward, but I think the only TX plant these days is Toyota? Trade wars have very little historical record of positive results.

Someone needs to chill, indeed. I have thought what might do him in, I fear health more than anything else. 70, not the picture of fitness, and very sensitive. I dislike the direct replacement much more than the current choice, should be be forced to vacate, so I wish him the best

Mr_Shiftright

What a shame. Tijuana was just starting to offer some really delicious food.

I wonder how those 2 million + Americans living in Mexico full time are going to feel about all this? Many are heavily invested in Mexico.

Historically, the USA and Mexico have well over a century of very deep cultural and economic ties. You can't just pitch that over a fence. (so to speak). I suspect the board rooms of many major U.S. corporations are not filled with happy campers at the moment.

In any event, if U.S. automakers pull back from Mexico, foreign automakers just expand to take up the slack, thank you very much. Unless of course you want to start a trade war with Japan and Europe, too.

Mexico makes over 3 million cars a year. The "Big Three" have been in Mexico since the 1930s.

fintail

Of course, Mexican production in the distant past was for Mexican consumption. Mexican built cars here are something from within the past 25 years.

If people get too lippy, we just nuke them, right?

Mr_Shiftright

Just about every manufacturer in the world is in Mexico right now. Mexico has the 15th largest GDP in the world.