General Motors Fans

fintail

Was it the normal Impala or the suddently-its-2006 fleet special Impala "limited"? The latter is typical sacrificing of brand and model name equity for quick profit.

tlong

So there are two models (as opposed to trim differences?). I don't know, it had like 13K on it and no pushbutton start or anything like that. Silver. The trunk sounded tinny on release but it did have articulating hinges. Cloth seats.

uplanderguy

I'd be stunned if that was the "current" Impala. Vaunted Consumer Reports rated it higher than any car they had ever tested--any car--other than the Tesla.

I did see a '17 base model Impala (still the 'new' style) at our dealer, with V6, with a $29K sticker, amazing value IMHO for a car that size, and the interior looked fine to me (cloth).

fintail

I had a loaded rental (National) new/current Impala LTZ a couple years ago, a nice car. It had pushbutton start, leather, pano, parking assist, etc. Cars like that should be put in fleets in at least some numbers by GM, to help perception. I see a number of rental new/current Impalas on the road, but the loaded ones are pretty rare.

fintail

Here's the old/fleet model:



Here's the modern car:



My experience with the modern one had it competitive with anything in its class.

tlong said:

So there are two models (as opposed to trim differences?). I don't know, it had like 13K on it and no pushbutton start or anything like that. Silver. The trunk sounded tinny on release but it did have articulating hinges. Cloth seats.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

I'd be stunned if that was the "current" Impala. Vaunted Consumer Reports rated it higher than any car they had ever tested--any car--other than the Tesla.

I did see a '17 base model Impala (still the 'new' style) at our dealer, with V6, with a $29K sticker, amazing value IMHO for a car that size, and the interior looked fine to me (cloth).

If I get another car of interest I'll try to make sure to get the year and trim level.

tlong

fintail said:

Here's the old/fleet model:



Here's the modern car:



My experience with the modern one had it competitive with anything in its class.

tlong said:

So there are two models (as opposed to trim differences?). I don't know, it had like 13K on it and no pushbutton start or anything like that. Silver. The trunk sounded tinny on release but it did have articulating hinges. Cloth seats.

It had to have been the old model, there was nothing competitive about it.

fintail

Another clue might be the rental category. The new style Impala is considered a "premium" in many fleets, while the old one will be a more basic "full size" or equivalent.

uplanderguy

Sorry to read today that Lordstown will be laying off its third shift due to reduced car demand/increased truck demand. Why don't they move the Cruze Hatchback to Lordstown instead of Mexico? I fear I know that answer to that one, sigh.

Mr_Shiftright

GM has been in Mexico for 80 years and Lordstown lost their 3rd shift a couple of times, like in 2006 for instance.

The problem is that Americans want bigger cars and any plant of any manufacturer building small cars is vulnerable to this market shift, no matter where the cars are built.

iluvmysephia1

Americans want bigger cars? Wash your mouth out with soap. I don't want no stinkin' big car!

Mr_Shiftright

Well just gaze upon the roads and take in the awful truth of it.

fintail

GM has been in Mexico for ages, but how long as it sold Mexican-built cars in the US? A much much shorter time. As to the why, we all know it, even if all won't say it.

It'll be very very very interesting to see how the new POTUS plays in to all of this kind of thing. Or if anything changes at all.

Mr_Shiftright

GM sells a lot of cars in Mexico. They aren't leaving no matter what anyone says. The loss of automotive workers jobs in the U.S. is mostly due to plant efficiency going way up....robots and microchips. These automotive jobs aren't coming back.

fintail

This isn't about GM in Mexico. Never was, never will be. GM can build there for that domestic market til th cows come home. For many, it is all about Mexican-built cars in the US market.

Mr_Shiftright

Well Ford moved some operations to Mexico and didn't displace any of the workers on the former line. They switched 'em to bigger cars and trucks. Not sure why GM could not have adopted a similar strategy, as they are investing heavily in U.S. infrastructure as we speak.

uplanderguy

Right. It's logical to build the Cruze Hatchback at Lordstown--how different could it possibly be than the sedan? I know it's about cost. I never saw Mexican cars for sale in the U.S. until after NAFTA. I'd see Canadian-built new Chevys--Chevelles and Monte Carlos from Oshawa, Ontario, and Monzas from Ste. Therese, Quebec-- at our hometown dealer in Pennsylvania, back in the early seventies. Frankly, I haven't seen a Mexican-built Chevy car here for a number of years, until the '17 Cruze Hatchback. I have seen HHR's and full-size Chevy trucks built in Mexico. I would just rather not buy a product from there. And it's nothing more than preferring to spend my money that way.

I wonder if the Mexican Cruze plant is laying people off. While I don't know, I have a hunch.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the auto biz in Mexico is pretty much booming.

I also believe that people are a bit confused about NAFTA---well, maybe the term to use is that they are legitimately "half-right". It's true that all trade agreements that re-inforce the idea of globalization can put strains on the U.S. economy. But Mexico (and Canada), where many of these cars are sold, generally are not in stiff competition with the USA economically, at least not in terms of percentages. It's all the other parts of the world.

One should be way more ticked off at building cars in China than in Mexico.

uplanderguy

I still say, I about lived at car dealerships through the '70's and even into the '80's, and was a regular visitor ever since. First Chevrolet built in Mexico I remember being sold in the U.S. was the Avalanche, then the HHR, then the vehicle that was the continuation of the Saturn Vue which was only sold in fleets (model name escapes me), pickups, then just now, the '17 Cruze Hatch.

Walk around any new-car dealer. You'll see far more new vehicles assembled in Mexico, and far more with Mexican parts and components per the window sticker, than from China. In fact, I can't recall a single new car sold in the U.S. that is built in China. In new Chevys, I've never seen a window sticker that even mentions China as a significant source of parts, or assembly of engine or transmissions (spelled out on at least GM window stickers). U.S., yes, Mexico, yes.

And Ford could reassign workers to other plants because the plants that built the models that are moving to Mexico are in Michigan. There is exactly one GM vehicle assembly plant in Ohio--Lordstown, which is nearly on the Pennsylvania border.

Mr_Shiftright

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Canada and Mexico do not compete generally with the U.S, as China does. There are other trade agreements which have far greater impact on the US economy than NAFTA.

fintail

Makers will try to hide Chinese content all they can, just as your local Volvo dealer won't tell you who owns the brand. You won't see it announced, but there's a Chinese Buick being sold here (with amusing claims of numbers vs what I have seen on the road) right now.

It'll be funny to see what the new leader does about TPP, which isn't exactly a good deal for the US either.

Mr_Shiftright

Not that easy--ratification doesn't occur for 2 years and even if the USA doesn't ratify, it's possible that enough other countries will make it happen anyway if the 11 remaining countries make up 85% of the original GDP totals. I don't know what % of GDP the USA contributes and if a non-ratification kills it for everybody.

I suspect that if the U.S. pulls out the others will concoct some new agreement and march on without us.

berri

I think the auto biz in Mexico is pretty much booming.

So the wall is to keep Hispanic labor from going back to Mexico

Smaller cars tend to have thin margins, so UAW or CAW labor is becoming too expensive to make them here. Slap on a 15% tariff and Ford and GM might just stop selling the affected cars in the US because they aren't going to drop big capital investments toward low margin products. Hyunkia will just get more market share.

uplanderguy

I regularly feel a disconnect between California-thinking and Ohio-thinking here, LOL!

Lordstown just had a ton of money sunk into it by GM to build the all-new Cruze. I am happy about that.

Maybe I see GM new-car labels more than the average guy who posts on Edmunds, I dunno.

There is a space that says, "Major Parts Sources" and lists two, maybe three countries. China is never listed, at least on a Chevy I have seen. I'll admit I don't look at the captive imports (Spark or whatever the hell it is now). Seems I mostly look at Cruzes, Malibus, Impalas, and Corvettes. Assembly locations of engine and transmission are listed and are not part of the parts content percentage....says this on the sticker. Of course, I believe there is Chinese content--but not as much as Mexican content, or engine and transmission assembly. This is right off of the sticker. I don't think "Mexico" would be a GM bragging point, either.

And in my small, rural hometown, seventy miles away, NAFTA absolutely, positively killed the largest industry, which employed 1,000 people in a town of 9,000--a railcar-building industry. They were at their peak employment in the early and mid-nineties. Not long after NAFTA, they moved to Mexico. I hear people mention the blacksmith analogy. Bogus here, as railcars are still being built--just not in my hometown, where they were built for eighty years.

All that said, I think most industry that has left is gone forever, and buying habits are so that most domestic vehicles are not even on most young people's radar.

I think, Shifty, I am thinking more locally and you are thinking more nationally about the problem, and that's OK of course.

UPDATE: I see the Buick Envision that is or will be sold here is built in China. You couldn't give me one. I think the average buyer could care less, sadly.

stever

The Civic Hatchback I recently looked at was, iirc, assembled in the UK with an engine from Thailand (or was it Taiwan?). I think a third company was listed too.

Mr_Shiftright

Depends on what type of rail cars they were building. If they were making hoppers and coal cars, then those jobs were doomed anyway.

Truth be known, I'm thinking locally as well. California and Mexico have had well over 150 years of rich and diverse economic, cultural and population exchange. They are bound together in many ways. Prosperity in Mexico only helps the West Coast. There are more American permanent residents in Mexico than there are in some U.S. states (even some combined U.S. States).

fintail

Buick Envision, I still don't know who is buying them or where, as I see more new Rolls Royces or McLarens than $45K Envisions. I was thinking they might sell to the Chinese expats in my area, but they seem to prefer German cars, Asian minivans/SUVs, or Volvo (as they know who owns it). Regarding the content stuff, it should all be listed. The one worlders now have it to the point where it can be impossible to know where food was made or processed. I wonder if that will change.

I think GM is making slow but steady in-roads to younger buyers with the Cruze, Sonic, and Volt, and the Camaro still attracts a few younger buyers too.

berri

I recently read that the Envision is doing Ok, probably the Midwest?

uplanderguy

Does it really cost $45K? I thought the larger Enclave rarely went above $50K.

berri

Easily. Buick has gotten German aggressive on sticker pricing.

Mr_Shiftright

It's going to be a tough row to hoe at that price point, as Buick then runs smack into the Audi Q5 and BMW X models (and GM's own Acadia).

I have yet to check one out but I'm curious.

berri

I'm thinking the only way that will work is if they push leases. You can subsidize it heavily without it being as obvious as big sale rebates. I'm also thinking Buick's big issue at these sticker prices is going to be depreciation rates similar to Lincoln.

Michaell

berri said:

I'm thinking the only way that will work is if they push leases. You can subsidize it heavily without it being as obvious as big sale rebates. I'm also thinking Buick's big issue at these sticker prices is going to be depreciation rates similar to Lincoln.

The Lacrosse lease rates are just average at the moment, and only $800 lease cash is available.

Mr_Shiftright

They are in a tough segment and the product, some say, is rather bland-o, if competent.

fintail

Rentals, I think that will keep it alive. I can't believe the 4000/month or some such sales number I read earlier. Also, if it has any longterm QC/durability issues, well, good luck. I am sure it is built under a microscope, but its assembly point is still an unknown entity for cars here.

Mr_Shiftright

You never know with GM. I'd like to think they shakedown each model so rigorously that they wouldn't have to go through showing their "surprise face" at the dealership when the same defect appears so many times that the parts are on back order.

berri

Buick seems to generally have better reliability than Lincoln, but I think it still lacks the market cachet of Lexus and the German's. I'm sure GM understands it all better than me, but I'd think the Hyunkia Genesis route of initially pricing on the low side may be a better idea. Worked out well for Lexus years back.

berri

I'm happy today. Got the latest Hemmings Classic car in the mail and the feature is GM Flattops

Mr_Shiftright

I'm already into it!

imidazol97

Even the Corvair had a flattop! It's a good article  to read. One idea was for a stainless steel roof.

Mr_Shiftright

Lucky for everyone they didn't do that.

I thought the flattop article was a little dull myself. I preferred the piece on the '62 Pontiac. What a gorgeous interior!

berri

The exterior merits of a Nomad versus a Safari or 58 Impala versus 58 Bonneville can be argued either way to me, but I think the interiors set off the Pontiac versions.

I thought Pontiac's in the latter 50's and 60's had some very nice interiors. Actually, I think in general Pontiac and Buick consistently put out some of the nicer interiors in American cars.

uplanderguy

To my eyes, from probably '62 or so through '68, full-size Pontiac interiors at the upper end (Grand Prix, Bonneville, Bonneville Brougham) looked more expensive than Olds or Buick interiors of the same bodied car (i.e., not comparing a Bonneville to an Electra 225 but a Wildcat, etc.).

tlong

We will have to see how many of those past manufacturing jobs return as part of the promises of the new administration...

fintail

I think if the new regime is to beat the current regime at anything, it will be at unfulfilled promises - and that's a hard act to follow given the beloved braintrust around now. A few wild stories are already virtually guaranteed not to happen. I suspect the jobs story will be another.

tlong said:

We will have to see how many of those past manufacturing jobs return as part of the promises of the new administration...

Mr_Shiftright

tlong said:

We will have to see how many of those past manufacturing jobs return as part of the promises of the new administration...

About zero...carmakers are not going to build new U.S. plants but may upgrade existing ones, like GM is doing. No utility company in their right mind is going to build a new coal-fired powerplant, what with cheap natural gas powering the new EVs and Hybrids.

Interestingly, 42% of all new jobs last year came out of California--amazing stat. This of course is due to high-tech, so people wanting jobs are going to have to retrain for them I think, and I don't expect there will be many opportunities for line workers in the auto industry.

TPP would have been good for GM corporate but looks like that's going down. Big win for China however.

berri

I'm thing that tariffs will mostly just raise prices and probably help the transplants a bit. Either way, plants will continue to automate and drop jobs over time.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep. Robots and increased plant efficiency are the actual job-killers, along with decline of the power of labor unions.

fintail

If the electoral college winner is able to back out of TPP, it will definitely be a boon for China and likely Russia, too.

Hmm what a coincidence. It'll be interesting to see how this works for GM, who has such a foothold in China.

Mr_Shiftright

I think GM makes out either way, although the loss of TPP will mean that GM will have maintain its place in the Asian markets without the help of the U.S. government. Undoubtedly, withdrawal from TPP will diminish U.S. influence--which I guess in the whole point of withdrawal.

I suspect some other form of TPP among Asian nations will be concocted, although without U.S. economic power I don't know how successful it could be.

Vietnam is another big loser in this.