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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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    popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    I think you just said that Toyota has an "unintended acceleration" problem that may affect a bunch of their vehicles. They either don't know, or won't tell, what the real problem is, and therefore a lot of folks have legimate concerns about their Toyota vehicles.

    Couldn't have said it better myself!
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,150
    What this discussion isn't:
    1. A "dance on the grave of Toyota" topic - if you're only here to revel in the misery of the company or Toyota vehicle owners, you're in the wrong place. Taking delight in the misfortune of others isn't welcome anywhere in our Forums.

    2. A psychiatrist's office - it's not the place to tell others that their fears are irrational. Keep in mind that others may have a different level of risk tolerance than you do, and please respect that difference.

    Further inflammatory comments (and associated graphics) are subject to removal without notice.

    Please stick to discussing the ISSUE and not other members of this forum. Thank you!

    kirstie_h

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

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    bmgpebmgpe Member Posts: 62
    No. Try reversing the letters "i" and "e" in the word "rivet" and you might get the joke....
    So serious!
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    ddolan2ddolan2 Member Posts: 2
    I called my dealer's (repair dept) on Wednesday 1/27/10 to ask if my car was being recalled. He asked for my VIN number. I didn't know it. He asked for my telephone number. I gave it to him. He supposedly looked it up and said "don' t worry, your car is fine". I told him I was going to Connecticut that afternoon, and he said "your car is new, you will have no problem". On Saturday I checked the website and found that my car had a VIN number that matched the recalls. This man purposely lied to me.
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    ddolan2ddolan2 Member Posts: 2
    I took his word that my car was fine.
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    mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    This man purposely lied to me.

    How do you know that for sure? What motivation does he have to purposely lie? You're assuming that your phone number accurately matches up with your VIN number in the database he's checking. Why not call him back with the VIN number and see if it matches what you found on the other website? If he still says no, you've got some other evidence that you can question him about.
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    silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    Apparently if the Camry built in Kentucky has a VIN beginning with 4T1 it may have a Denso pedal.

    At least my 2010 SE does.
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    beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    A few, a very few, people have reported a problem.

    I am driving a 2006 Avalon XLS with a CTS pedal and it has 46,000 miles on it. I tried stacking floor mats and I was not able to make the mats reach anywhere near the bottom of the gas pedal.

    I have noticed no change at all in the gas pedal function since early 2006. I figure the odds on my car having a problem with the pedal are about one in millions and millions of Toyotas sold since 2006. It's a car and a mechanical object that can break at any time, so I have to be prepared when I'm behind the wheel.

    Be prepared. The Boy Scouts have a good motto don't you know.

    And I just had the oil hose replaced under the recall, so that's good to go for at least another 46,000 miles I figure. The old oil hose seemed to be just fine - no cracks, bulges, nothing, but if they want to give me something free I'm all for it.

    Oh well, some people expect perfection. They will always be disappointed, at least in this life.

    John
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Thank you for that. Well said!
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    petecopeteco Member Posts: 2
    I checked my pedal this morning and found I have the CTS.

    I also noticed that the side of the pedal slightly brushes against the carpet that is on the side of the center console. I don't know why they designed it to be that close to the carpet. Looks like it could stick if something got between the carpet and the pedal.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    Lawyers Ask Court To Stop Toyota From Fixing Cars

    Their complaint “asks the Court to enjoin Toyota from implementing any fixes in the accelerator pedals of the subject vehicles without approval from the NHTSA.” To those who are not familiar with a strange language called Legalese, “enjoin” means “issue an injunction,” or, in even plainer English, “order someone to stop doing something.”

    :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am just passing theses videos along for individuals to review and help explain in basic/nonprofessional language how pedal in question is assembled, functions, etc. Video is quite informative, especially if you have even a small degree of knowledge/experience about computer technology and the little bugs that can occur and can be difficult to pinpoint/and/or correct. Yes, multiple computer technology systems are undeniably a part of the sequencial steps of process in pressing gas pedal to ultimately the actual engine acceleration.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    This below video is great - done by Consumer Reports Auto Engineer on auto comparison between a Toyota and VW - HOW TO STOP YOUR TOYOTA. I did like the VW demonstration that has brake override system so vehicle can always be stopped. I do not personally like VW autos, but did like how brake override system works, and how it appears to be great safety device for any possible problems with unexplained accleration problems. AS MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL I FEEL THIS IS MUST WATCH FOR ALL OF US.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/how-to-stop-your-car-du- ring-sudden-acceleration/17188412001/48234862001/

    Toyota is not the only auto manufacturer that has higher complaints than other manufacturers. But their complaints do seem higher than other auto manufacturers per government statistics. Since I own a 2006 RAV4, I am very interested about the issues and my own safety. My vehicle is not among the recalls, but have had intermittant minor unexplained increases of aceleration incidents - all could be controlled though. I am not sure my vehicle issues are related, but feel I must stay informed and be knowledgeable for my own safety. Presently I have no intention of trading my vehicle in. But I can not honestly say my position will not change if problems increase and/or cannot be taken care of.

    Good luck to everyone.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I just posted message with two videos and inadvertantly sent same video twice. Please find other video below. This video is great and helps demonstrate most of sequencial steps involved for acceleration.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    CTS, while seemingly admitting to their gas pedal sticking or binding, is denying responsibility for these WOT run-a-way engine episodes. So Toyota continues, must continue, to look elsewhere for the primary causative factor.

    Until that time comes any vehicle of asian manufacture that uses the same parts and firmware design source (NipponDenso/Denso US) as Toyota/etc will remain "suspect".

    The way Denso has been known to operate in the past not even Toyota may ever know what the problem was/is, nor the FIX. I would imagine the fix will come as a "reflash" with a public announcement that the "reflash" will be to facilitate a failsafe. Failsafe will be to drive the throttle plate to idle when the brake is used but also "buried" in the reflash will be a true fix for the firmware problem that is the root cause of these current episodes.

    Does Boeing get to look at, certify, the firmware source code from a parts vendor..?? Possibly....

    But I rather doubt that Toyota/etc has access to NipponDenso/Denso US firmware source code, and less likely certification ability. Toyota/etc probably doesn't even have the talent required for firmware source code validation/certification even given access.

    Then there remains the question of anomalous behavior, as yet undiscovered anomalous behavior, possibly, of the microprocessor, computing engine, and surrounding/supporting hardware. Anomalous behavior just random enough to be almost, if not altogether, untraceable.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Kirstie,

    I applaud you for your objective comments and your apparent attention for screening blog comments.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Interesting...

    link title

    Click on the left to see claims from all sorts of manufacturers :surprise:
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,179
    The video posted shows the CTS pedal. The Truth About Cars shows both pedals disassembled side-by-side in this video. Interesting, to me at least, is that the earlier CTS video didn't determine if there were a backup spring inside; this video shows that both suppliers have a backup spring in case one spring fails.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-peda- l-assemblies-denso-unit-looks-cheaper-rumored-to-be-recalled-too/

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Obviously you have never seen an "errata" sheet for, for instance, one of the X86 processors. Over the past 30 years my software development team has independently found/discovered not just 1 or 2 of these hardware "bugs" and provided the appropriate documentation to the manufacturer so they could added to the errata sheet.

    And I'm quite sure we are no alone in this matter.
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,179
    To the point that there may be something wrong in the computer(s) that control the acceleration, I offer the computer in my washing machine. It lost its mind a week or so ago when the wash cycle was cancelled. It would not unlock the glass top on the washer. No picking new cycles and starting them would work any miracle and reboot the computer. Pushing buttons to initial new cycle or cancel would do anything.

    So I unplugged it for 10-15 minutes. Apparently on a complete restart it bootstrapped the right program into place and the Whirlpool Cabrio operates just fine--until the next time it decides to get lost when a wash cycle is cancelled.

    The parallel is that computers are programmed by someone. Despite all the best checks, hopes, prayers over the binary coding, things go wrong. A PC can be rebooted. A washing machine computer required unplugging to drain the memory (little humor there, "drain"). But a car's computer may have a quirk that only occurs on a certain input at a certain conditions within the processor and motherboard. Those are hard to find.

    When car computers have a quirk, it is a major danger. A consistent comment in the many reports in various places is that when the car was turned off, everything was back to normal on restart. To me that says not mats in all cases, that says not sticking gas pedal in all cases, but says there's another problem in some cases--scientfic method at work. So various hypotheses can be posited and tested carefully with only one variable changed to allow a conclusion.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    btreibbtreib Member Posts: 1
    I suspect the Toyota problem is more than a floor mat or mechanical accelerator pedal malfunction.

    I own an '07 Prius. For about the first 15-20,000 miles the car always shut down immediately upon depressing the power button. Since then, the engine frequently does not shut down on the first push, and my car will move forward if I take my foot off the brake. I have to push the power button a second time to stop the engine.

    The dealer could find nothing wrong and told me the problem was I should be pushing the "Park" button before pushing the Power button to turn the car off. (It says nothing about doing that in the manual.)

    I wrote to Toyota, and to my dealer, explaining I was concerned that a computer software or hardware malfunction was the cause of the problem with my Prius. They reassured me there was no danger.

    My wife and I continue to drive our car, and I'm careful to be sure the engine has actually stopped before I take my foot off the brake. However, I'm now concerned that the minor problem I'm experiencing could progress into something much more dangerous.

    I sure would like to know why my car refuses to turn off with one push of the power button, as it did when I first bought it.
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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    Someone asked earlier whether car companies have access to supplier component software/firmware. While I've never worked for a component supplier, I had worked for a technology supplier that sold products to the automotive industry (Toyota being just one of our customers). They do indeed have access to software/firmware. Matter of fact, they demand the access. Moreover, the majority of the time, the auto companies insist on either customizing the firmware/software themselves, or having the supplier do it under the car manufacturer's supervision or review. Further, the software/firmware is unique from car company to car company....sometimes just a little, sometimes quite a bit.

    imid...the more I hear about the accelerator "shim" fix, the less I'm convinced that it will solve the issue. While I hope it does. I'm not confident that it actually will.

    I also wonder if the safety laws and review procedures in Japan are less stringent than they are in the U.S.? Perhaps that explains why the recall doesn't affect Japan, but does affect other parts of the world where these vehicles are sold.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    Found that the Sienna also has had reports and issues due to acceleration of high speeds ! Its not been recalled but has the same scary issues as the other Toyotas, go to Edmunds.com and check out the boards..lots of scary stories going back to 07 and cars even early years..I have an 09 and am very concerned for the saftey of my family ! Always wanted a Toyota and now have one and dont want it anymore !
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am so sorry. Another WHOOPS found. Toyota did announce they were going to install Brake Override systems in new vehicles possibly 2010-2011. Have also seen reports Toyota may flash system into some of recalled medels as well, but I have not been able to confirm this statement.

    I am not sure of why this feature was not already a standard feature for Toyota and some of the other auto manufacturers. I do see some manufacturers already have this feature and personally assume those manufacturers have it for safety reasons, PR for decreasing complaint issues, etc. My personal assumption for not having would be system development, capatibility issues, issue of patent?, etc. Just not sure, and am only guessing. The actual computer flashing to install this computer brake override system doesn't take long, and once setup would be minimal cost/possibly no cost since Toyota owns the computer flashes already. But maybe Toyota charges each individual dealer for these flashes? Difficult to understand this possible cost, as Toyota would not be selling to nonaffiliated outside repair service center. .

    Please note my personal main concern about these possible unexplained acceleration complaints involve safety issues. I am medical professional so this will always be my major concern. Incidents could cause minor to serious accidents that could/possibly cause injury/possible minor to severe bodily harm/injury and possibly even death. And then you look at possible vehicle damage, and driving record implications, auto insurance implications, etc.. It appears to me this complaint carries much high risk for people safety risks than some other lodged complaints

    Incident complants do seem small when compared to number of vehicles sold, but government statistics do reveal complaints continue to be lodged over the years. These statistics do not include complaints lodged with the dealership though. Then you must also consider the number of people that do not lodge complaints. How many were valid? Etc.

    Again I apologize I did not include this additional information also. Since Toyota has had good reliability reputation I hope they will now have this isssue addressed. I still would have liked to have seen them be more proactive in the PR department addressing this negtive publicity. But seems maybe they are now.

    Personally I would like to see pro-brake override system, or equivalent on all autos/trucks/etc. Alos personally my nonprofessional opinion seems to lead me to possible multifaceted cause/s. Could pedal be improved? Maybe/sure, as most designs can always be improved, but I do have difficulty placing full blame on pedal. Scope of complaints lodged with governemnt safety agency over the years has many incidents that pedal/floor mats do not appear to be the cause/or be a sole factor. Our automobiles are now loaded with computerized systems and with that we must/should have fail safe systems installed, if for safety reasons alone. Intermittant bugs, glitzes, in computer software are difficult to find. Many/some malfunctions are not recorded in memory, and/or depends upon the actual program memory functions and retention of that information. Brake override systems, or equivalent would sure help overcome these intermittant bus/glitzes.

    Yeah, Toytoa will now have brake override systems in future! Guess those of you with recall models must check if you will get these flashes into your vehicle. Good luck, and hope all of your issues/questions will be taken care of at your dealerships to your satisfaction. Sadly for me, I do not have one of the recall models, Sure wish I did. But still am happy for those of you that do.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, pedal appears to have two springs. I accidentally sent earlier video. Later video has popup apologizing to Toyota, and this gentleman had also apologized in first video if pedal did contain two.

    I liked this demonstration. I am not sure who this gentleman was, but I thought he seemed to be fair, and not derogatory towards Toyta.

    Many thanks for sending this information along to me.

    Sorry I sent wrong bookmarked video.
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    beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    Okay, so we're about the same age and have computer backgrounds.

    Anecdotal tales do not replace evidence.

    There are more anecdotal tales of drivers pushing the gas when they thought they were pushing on the brake pedal. That's not evidence either if we're talking about hard facts and science..

    If the cars are faulty, why haven't there been more problems? Millions and millions of cars - Toyotas - and only a few documented cases. The buggiest thing out there are human beings. Right? The nut behind the wheel. Sort of like computer problems, isn't it? The end user is often the problem.

    I wonder whatever happened to my Leading Edge Model D with the ram upgraded to 640k, 2 x 5.25" floppies and no hard drive? Those were the days. Or the old CPM machines? Or my first wife. BWAAAHAHAHA.

    John
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..the actual computer flashing to install this computer brake override system.."

    A true WOT/brake bypass FAILSAFE would, of design necessaty, not use the existing control computer. A simple relay circuit to open the EFI circuit would be a more proper failsafe. Or go ahead and use the "reflash" technique but provide a separate backup failsafe that only kicks in if the engine doesn't drop to idle RPM with a few hundred milliseconds of brake application.
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    tonybucktonybuck Member Posts: 1
    I have an idea for dealing with an accelerator pedal that might stick. Tie a piece of stout cord (blind or curtain cord, for example) to the accelerator pedal. Make sure to tie it so it won't slip off, maybe both in front of and behind the rod that goes down into the floor. Tie the other end to something on the dashboard or steering column within your reach (_not_ the steering wheel). Leave some slack, but not a droopy amount. Make sure the cord can't get tangled in something important that could make it unsafe. Make sure it can't for instance be snared by your footwear. If the pedal doesn't want to come up, and you're headed into danger, yank firmly on the cord to dislodge it. This should work even if the pedal has to lift up the floor mat. Then pull over safely and call for a tow. Preferably to a dealer, who should be only too happy to rush a real repair job. CAUTION: test this sitting in your garage in neutral, don't find out whether or not it works while you're doing a hundred on the freeway in rush hour! DISCLOSURE: I'm no expert, just a driver and not even of a Toyota. This is all just a suggestion, and it's up to you and at your own risk if you do anything with it.
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    kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    the best thing an auto-manufacturer could do to ensure they don't have a run-away vehilce, is to install a mechanical override. No electronics, sensors, or software to complicate the issue and make it susceptible to "bugs". I'm not sure if the Brake-override being mentioned contains those.

    The override should physically close off the fuel-line via a valve, or physically disconnects the battery. No fuel, no spark, no go.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    whatever happened to my Leading Edge Model D

    Gone just like my $10,000 TRS 80 with five 8" floppy drives. And my $4500 HP with 292k of ram and separate floppy drive. Long before I could afford a 10 mgbyte hard drive. I have also spent hours loading old computers with paper tape code or one instruction at a time with toggle switches. Novatel and DEC all names from the past. Ferrite magnetic donut memory was my favorite to trouble shoot. Kids today have no idea.
    image
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..they do indeed have access to software/firmware.."

    My company has number of customer companies that have a complete design package in escrow. The escrow package connot be opened except under certain specific situations.

    In your case, even if the customer has full and complete access to your company's source code, what are the chances that they have the talent onboard to understand the sources to the level necessary fro modification and recompiling..?

    And operational firmware trouble-shooting, in the case at hand..??

    Not possible.

    I have very little doubt that Toyota/etc are relying, FULLY relying, on NipponDenso/Denso US, for that task.
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    kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    If the cars are faulty, why haven't there been more problems?

    If you take a look at the history of vehicles that have been recalled, you will always see that a recall of hundreds of thousands or more of vehicles, is based on a relatively small number of the first defects found. Consider a bell-curve distribution where the x-axis is time or miles-driven. They aren't all going to occur at the same time. And you certainly don't want to wait to have the recall after a majority have failed.

    I think we can all assume that Toyota would never incur the expense and reputation-damage that it has, if they didn't think they had a serious problem.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..If the cars are faulty, why haven't there been more problems..."

    You couldn't have had much computer experience, hardware or software, and ask that question.

    Each and every one of those 737 hydraulic servo valves, rudder control valves, was of flawed design. It was only after the third incident/crash, out of how many flights, that Boeing had enough evidence to know where to begin looking.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for your reply. Regarding these suppliers - have read CTS makes these pedals to Toyota specifications. I can not verify this though. Sounds like maybe you have though?

    I spoke with my son who develops/does engineering auto software. He too felt is more a multifaceted problem. Appears Toyota installing brake override system will eliminate most of the possible causes and complaints. At lease brakes will take priority over acceleration. Computer glitzes would be overcome.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am not sure what system/program Toyota will be installing??? I have seen multiple article announcements Toyota is installing brake override on new vehicles. I am totally ignorant regarding what is available.

    Thanks for this new information. I appreciate.
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    jofallonjofallon Member Posts: 29
    Supposedly they will bundle all fixes into one repair visit, but I haven't seen anything clear about a brake override in older cars.
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Good find, but that is scary...the fix that isn't the real fix?

    Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect

    Toyota Motor Corp.'s decision to blame its widening sudden-acceleration problem on a gas pedal defect came under attack Friday, with the pedal manufacturer flatly denying that its products were at fault.

    Federal vehicle safety records reviewed by The Times also cast doubt on Toyota's claims that sticky gas pedals were a significant factor in the growing reports of runaway vehicles. Of more than 2,000 motorist complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, just 5% blamed a sticking gas pedal, the analysis found.

    What's more, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles over the last seven years, none of which identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.

    "The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. "We know this recall is a red herring.
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,179
    >WOT/brake bypass FAILSAFE would, of design necessaty, not use the existing control computer.

    My concern exactly. If the computer were the part at fault, it wouldn't react to a brake pedal depressed sensor and interrupt an acceleration command.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,179
    I haven't seen one of those in a long, long time.

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    If you are a Toyota owner of an affected model and willing to be interviewed by reporters/journalists with your reaction to Toyota's announcement of a fix for the sticky pedal, drop me an email.

    karen@edmunds.com

    We are specifically looking for someone in NY at the moment.
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    During an interview with ABC News on a Manhattan street, Toyota's U.S. president Jim Lentz denied that the international car company had hidden problems with acceleration in its vehicles, or was trying to blame sticky gas pedals for a problem that may originate in the car's electrical system instead. In an ABC News interview, U.S. Chief insists Toyota didn't hide problem.

    ABC News asked Lentz if it was true that Toyota had been covering up problems with runaway acceleration in its vehicles for years. Government documents show that Toyota first fielded reports of "runaway Toyotas" in March 2007.

    Lentz responded by saying, "Right now, what's important is we're here to get the news out to our customers."

    Toyota Cover-up?

    Asked again to answer allegations of a cover-up, Lentz stated flatly, "There is no cover-up."

    "How long have you known about this problem of the runaway cars," asked ABC News, "not just the sticky gas pedals?"
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,410
    if Toyota is smart, they would ask their software engineers if they have any friends that are VW tuners, to find out how they do it.
    sometimes, it's not what you know, it's who you know. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,179
    ABC News has the text of their evening report and a quote from Nicole Nason, NHSTA, said, ""I know Toyota has said it has provided information to the government over a period of years," said Nason, "but it really has come out, very, very, slowly, drip, drip, drip."

    Lentz was very evasive when questioned by ABC's news guy. In fact, he was brusque in his shaking his hand to try to terminate the questions. Lentz's eyes reacted improperly when answering questions about the possibility of other electronic problems.

    ABC Nightly News link

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I am not sure what system/program Toyota will be installing??? I have seen multiple article announcements Toyota is installing brake override on new vehicles. I am totally ignorant regarding what is available

    Toyota has sure been confusing about these issues. Hopefully their fix won't be as messed up as their handling of the issues. I thought there was going to be a brake override from the original November info, but I guess not. So basically, all of us who recently bought a Camry will have an inferior product than those that start rolling off the line in a few weeks.That doesn't seem right. If they are going to change the computer settings and put a brake override on new production, they should do the same thing for all year vehicles involved in this problem.

    Fortune has an article that indicates for some unknown reason Toyota put in a different spec accelerator when it contracted with CTS than what is being procured from Denso for their home market. So I guess they decided their Japanese customers were more important than their American buyers since the North American plants apparently got the cost cutting inferior design? Fortune critizes that maybe Toyota took cost cutting too far, too fast and also notes that Toyota seems to have mishandled this whole mess. You can read the Fortune article in CNN.com. After reading it, I became a little more upset about this and the way the US and Canada were apparently given a less robust part. Honestly, that's a bit insulting to their large North American market isn't it?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    From the tear down of both the CTS and Denso throttle controllers, I thought the CTS was far superior with bronze bushings vs plastic. I don't think it was more than patent differences. Denso probably would not allow CTS to copy their patented throttle. Toyota is just the purchaser of the components.

    So far I have not seen any pictures of CTS units that are supposedly defective. CTS claims there are none. And Toyota is just going along half cocked. I am sure they are hoping to get this behind them as soon as possible. My guess, they have not pinpointed the real culprit. Some kind of brake over-ride installed on all models going back to when they started DBW would be the best way to rebuild confidence.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Some kind of brake over-ride installed on all models going back to when they started DBW would be the best way to rebuild confidence

    I totally agree, but have to wonder if they will give precedence to their Japanese customers over North America? As for brass versus plastic, it would seem it should be better, but its the part with the sticking problem and it appears to have been limited to facilities outside of Japan? After reading the Fortune article, I have to wonder if the Denso part was the problem child, would they then retrofit their home market with brake override? I can't help but think after reading that Fortune article that Toyota may be shortchanging the US and Canada. If the situation is serious enough that they are going to put brake override in new production when they start the lines back up, shouldn't the already sold products of the same generation get the same treatment? It doesn't seem right not to do this.
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    oparroparr Member Posts: 74
    Interesting read here (especially first post);

    http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429321
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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    sharonki.....Toyota does the engineering design work. They may license certain patents (as in the case with CTS) for use in parts, but only as it relates to their own engineering needs.

    As such, Denso or CTS would be requested by Toyota to show firmware/software source code. Toyota would pay them for the licensing to test, use, and co-develop, if appropriate.

    In fairness, I'm making an assumption that they're adopting behavior with their internal engineering staffs and vendors, as they do with other avenues of technology they use or buy.

    Ford probably does the most as far as overseeing and requesting a "peek" into software/firmware. GM is a close 2nd.

    I know both Denso and CTS make components for other car makers. So far, no issues with anyone but Toyota. And, since there have been other reports regarding the same unintended acceleration issues with the Lexus brand, regardless of parts from Denso, CTS, whether built in the U.S., or Japan, this is an issue that is going to take more than just cursory mechanical fixes. This could be a coding process issue. It could be an electrical control issue. I think the one thing it isn't, is the part they've purportedly found a fix for.

    I think they're still hunting for the root cause, too. This fix is just an interim step (and perhaps a PR move).
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    oparr....interesting post over at the BMW site. The poster lost me when he said somehow condensation (moisture) was absorbed by plastic bits and caused them to distort. I know of no plastic piece that I've seen from either Denso, nor CTS that's capable of absorbing moisture. From what I've seen, there's not been any sort of distortion to the parts, either.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for the information. I also personally feel break pedal is not sole cause. Yes, it may be a PR move. I am impressed with your knowledge. What is your background?

    Somehow I see:
    (1)Toyota fixing pedal
    (2)Toyota installing brake override systems all new vehicles starting 2011+recalls maybe?
    (3)Toyota sees decrease of complaints in future
    (4)Toyota claims pedal replacement success
    (5)Owners happy-safe - brake override systems cause decrease complaints - brakes take priority over acceleration - decreased dangerous safety risks unexplained increased acceleration situations-
    (6)Brake override system solution-good for both Toyota & owners
    (7)FINALLY HUMAN SAFETY ADDRESSED. With this also comes decreased risk any costs of needed medical care, vehicle damage repairs, increase auto insurance, lack of employment/salary due injury from accident, effects on DMV driving record

    H-mmmm. Just still not convinced Toyota was totally truthful and may have been withholding information. Government safety administration interview implied information not given freely. Forget how he phrased it - something like drip, drip, drip, drip. Toyota has been fined in past by government safety administration for this not telling all and for withholding information. I forget the year though..

    But still quite happy - finally human safety addressed for some owners!!! Safety is a huge issue for me. Wish brake override system would be installed for ALL owners Toyotas that have electronic throttles too.

    I hope Toyota can overcome this.
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    sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    No, I have not seen any reports that brake override would be availalbe for older models that also have electronic throttles drive by wire systems. So is ditto from me.

    My guess is it will be a one visit stop too. My son told me flashing in brake override system doesn't take long at all. Not sure if owners will get new pedal assembly or if will be rebult.
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