BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

brave1heart

The S4 would be faster than the 330 - 0-60 doesn't quite tell the story as much as 0-120. BTW, Quattro is standard on the S4. I LOVE our A4 1.8T Q but I LUST after my 325i - that's the difference in my mind. In a lot of respects, they are very similar and I think the vast majority of drivers would be perfectly happy with either car. If you, however, like to drive aggressively and like to drive a sportier car, there's no beating the 3-series for performance, feel, and ride. One thing that I find unacceptable about the S4 is its weight - 3,700+ lbs for a compact sedan is simply not right.

Leasing vs. financing vs. cash - If I had millions of dollars in my bank account, I would not mind paying cash. If I owned a business, I'd be leasing. For everything else... there's Master Card (financing, that is). Your decision would depend on the opportunity cost of your money, your risk profile, and especially on your buying and ownership preferences.

Off to the track - I can't wait...

P.S. Redlined my 325i in FOURTH a couple of days ago - almost forgot to upshift. Rock-solid, vibration-free, and an engine sound out of this world!!!

mmcbride1

Most definitely outperforms the 330i (I haven't seen any tests, but I'd bet it's faster 0-120 than the 330i, too). The M3 is another story, though. The S4 was meant to compete against the E36 M3, which it did quite respectably. Expect the next S4 to go toe-to-toe with the E46 M3. There's talk of ~350 hp and maybe a V8...due out as a 2003 (or 2004 at the latest - I think Audi has decided that the S models are quite profitable, though, so I'd expect to see a 2003 model). I just hope it doesn't cost $50k like the M3 does!

gurumike

..reading peoples opinions when they're expressed as facts. In reality, German cars are less expensive in the USA than most other products and most Japanese vehicles (specifically Honda and Toyota), good as they may be, are relatively more expensive. Statements such as the above demonstrate a spectacular lack of any basic understanding about what makes a car tick, and how a car got to such a level of development.

And as far as Consumers reports and car waxes go - didn't they (a few years back) conclude that Strouds (if that's how it's spelt) and Old Milwalkee (spelling?) are the two best beers you can buy in America ??!! Well - I suppose it's a good idea to get someone elses opinion and input, but try to remember that that's all it is.

Incidently - on the 330i that melted - turns out that the car had already had the fan recall completed !!! I ordered my replacement replacement today !! Third time lucky (and hopefully no melt-downs between now and then!)

jimbres

On 9/23, he was torn between an Audi & a BMW. On 9/24, he decided that all German cars are overpriced junk. What's with this guy? Did he forget his meds? Has he been abducted by aliens? Worse, is he now driving a 4-cylinder Camry? What happened, Ed? We won't rest until we know the answer.

topspin627

I've looked at this for many years and have leased all but twice in the last 20 years. For me it works out better. I put on around 15k per year and don't want to keep a car out of warranty, especially premium cars. I've usually been able to lease with some kind of factory backed program. I don't want to tie up money in a depreciating asset and I know exactly what the vehicle will cost me for the 3 years I drive it and then it's on to the next one. Paying cash is always cheapest in the long run but laying out 30-50g for a premium car plus tax never was something I was comfortable with. On the other hand you can lease some really great cars for just $50-75 per month more than your average family car so it puts more cars within reach of the average guy. You also save on sales tax. So if your the kind of person that loves to drive new cars every 3-4 years, I think leasing is great. If you like to keep a car for a really long time then you will save money paying cash for it.
On another topic, does anyone know of a really good site for 3 series after market toys?

rtgeisreit

...and I love it. Just 10,000 miles, steel blue, navigation system, sand leatherette, premium package. It looks brand new. In fact, several people I have shown it to can't believe its not brand new. I have been lurking on this board for a long time before I took the plunge. Thanks for all the great information.

gurumike

ed666 - Just seen in new Saab 9-3 sporting latest Birkenstocks and Patagonia fleace jacket.

Suddenly the world makes sense again.

God I'm in a funny mood this evening!

dantlo

Wow $700 over invoice, great!!!!! deal.
I paid $1200 over on my 2001 325i(in Los Angeles area)from the same dealer that I bought 3 BMWs. You did great!!
Dan

genghis721

I had always avoided BMW's, partially because the engines were so underpowered compared to the price, but mainly because I am colorblind and have trouble with thte dash lighting. Well, I found a car worse than the BMW on this respect -- the Audis -- so I said "why not give the Bmers another try".

Well, I was impressed at a local dealer. Not with the sales-staff, that's for sure, but the car I test drove. A 330i. This was the most balanced car I have driven in our recent tire-kicking campaign. Power was good and I could bear the displays.

Now, I tend to like AWD, and would want to get that version, although I probably don't REALLY need it in Houston, TX (my friend says his 530i with DSC NEVER spins out or loses traction in rain -- and he is pretty rough on cars) My question to all here: does the xi version SIGNIFICANTLY decrease the performance of the automobile? By significant, does it make the car extremely lethargic in feel? If it shaves a half-second off the quarter-mile time, I don't care. What I care about is solid feel and well handling without too much of an mpg penalty.

Thanks
Kirk

kkramer25

Will BMW follow in the other makers footsteps with the new APR financing options?

brave1heart

In short, the xi does NOT significantly degrade performance, especially with the 330 models. The 330 engine so powerful that a couple of hundred pounds in added weight do not make a significant difference in acceleration. Braking and especially handling, however, will not be as good and that's mostly because the xi models have higher ground clearance, softer suspension settings and most of all, narrower non-performance all-season tires.

If you must have an AWD, don't let any of this stop you. It's a little like wearing a winter jacket in Houston to keep you from catching a cold, though.

shawn325i

are really only relevant when a vehicle with less power is being beaten in performance by vehicles with more power that are less expensive. However, that is not really the case with most BMW's, though rated at less power, they continually beat or hold their own with those that have more power within their class.

brave1heart

The HP is a rating of the engine power alone and it does not take into consideration the rest of the engineering that goes into the car. BMW's have some of the most efficient power transfer to the wheels and high HP at the wheels as a consequence of that. I personally get a kick every time my 184-hp BMW outruns a much more powerful car.

A note on shifting (I vaguely recall you mentioning something about 5K RPM's). You really don't need to rev the 325's engine at all for a smooth shift from first to second. It only gets tricky when you get going with partial throttle in first and then have to let some of the power go. The gearing is set up to increase the RPM's quickly but this works both ways - if you let off the gas pedal partially, you may stall it. This effect is magnified when the A/C is on. The key thing to remember is to accelerate quickly and not let go of the gas till shift it into second. You could shift at 2K or 5K - it won't make a big difference except the higher the RPM's the more pressure there is on the clutch. High RPM's are OK for the clutch in the higher gears but off the start you could fry the clutch if you use brake-torqueing consistently for a fast start. Practice, practice, practice. Now if shifting between golf clubs was that easy...

gordf

Kirk: Greetings from Toronto. I've driven my 330xi for almost a year. I chose the xi option as I wanted a true 4 season vehicle and the 330xi has served me well. I sailed through the winter[++ snow up here but not as bad as NE USA or the midwest] on the all season radials . The xi option obviated the need for winter tires. I had no problems on my forays to ski country. Braveheart has outlined well the drawbacks. Power loss is negligible as is braking ability. A bit of a loss in gas mileage is noticed. The suspension is softer for sure, although it is still a fun car to drive. As a plus the grip is outstanding and confidence inspiring. It is a big plus in wet weather driving. For me the choice was not difficult. It really doesn't sound like you need this option in your situation unless you are driving a LOT in the rain or on backroads with poor surfaces. That's my 2 cents worth[= about 1.33 US cents]

habitat1

I am likely going with a 5-series in a few months, so the "x" is not an option for me. However, has anyone looked into the projected long term maintenance and repair costs for an "x"? I was unpleasantly surprised at how much "routine" maintenance costs on our Isuzu Trooper run, with all the extra stuff involved with 4WD.

It would seem to me that the combination of higher up front cost, performace loss, reduced gas milage and more moving parts to maintain and replace down the road would suggest not going with an "x" unless you really need it (i.e. snow belt). I live in DC and wouldn't opt for it, even if it were available on the 5-series.

gearman

I agree with your comments on rwd v. awd bmw handling characteristics, and would add one more.

All automobiles reflect a host of design compromises accepted by the manufacturers so as to achieve certain product objectives. In the case of bmw, several compromises have been accepted by the company, and fully supported by the target market, is to achieve near 50/50 front / rear weight distribution for the purpose of promoting responsive chassis dynamics near the limit of adhesion. Vehicle attitude adjustment at the limit of adhesion during high lateral acceleration is easily accomplished in current bmw rwd products, and lends the cars their renowned road behaviour. The use of awd, in x applications, sharply reduces, but does not eliminate this characteristic.

Accordingly, in response to an earlier inquiry about awd, I would suggest that if like most of us who favor bmw's sedans for their handling characteritics, avoiding the added purchase and maintainence expense of awd is a good way to continue savoring bmw handling in an undiluted manner.

Those people who frequently drive in icy conditions are likely to favor front weight biased awd cars (like Audis, for example), for their intuitive recovery on glassy roads. For those drivers who encounter icy conditions only sporadically, then the bmw x cars would be a fine compromise.

topspin627

What's the consensus out there on the the daytime running lights? Have most of you opted to have them turned on? Any opinions on pros and cons are welcomed. Also, what other options have you programed in that you like?

shipo

I am not and have never been a fan of DRLs (with the possible exception of the "Halo" type DRLs on the 2001 5-Series) and for my 328i, I do not have them enabled. As an interesting aside, I live within a mile of BMWNA and I would be surprised if even 15% of the employee driven 3-Series cars have the DRLs enabled.

Best Regards,
Shipo

mschukar

I like our Volvo in that the lights turn off with the ignition (why don't all cars do this?) We simply leave the light switch on all the time giving us DRL's.

Do BMW's lights turn off with the ignition?

-Murray

shipo

Yes, sort of. The headlights turn of as soon as the key is switched off, however, the front corner markers and taillights stay on. I seem to remember from the manual that if you leave them on long enough, the car will automatically turn them off after a while to prevent the battery from being drained. Haven't confirmed this yet. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

mschukar

http://www.bmwusa.com

Prices, build your BMW, gallary, etc. all available for the 2002 models.

No SMG option, though :-(

-Murray

cnorthrup

I have seen this referred to as a programmable vehicle memory feature on the 330i. Does this require the "extra" alarm system? The salesmen said he was not aware of the feature as a standard feature.

Chuck

platypus

Howdy guys and gals,

It's been a while since I've followed this board, but was hoping to get some feedback from individuals who have had the steering retrofit (for lower assist) done on their 2001 cars.

I've finally got my dealer on track, and he expects the parts within the next two weeks.

My question: What's the verdict from those who have had the retrofit done and have lived with it for some time? I heard initially nothing but positive feedback, but was wondering if any adverse effects have surfaced over time.

This will probably be my last chance to get this done, so it's now or never. I'm planning on moving forward with the retrofit unless someone can talk me out of it.

Thanks!

gurumike

All BMWs (excl Z3 products) have the motion sensors from the factory. You certainly have to buy what you refer to as the "extra" alarm system - which is basically just the siren part of the anti-theft equipment. With out the siren, if the window is open and the motion sensor saw movement, there's not much the car can do about it !! The motion sensors are housed in the little box in the center of the roof liner (on cars with sunroof, just behind the roof).

The programmable vehicle memory feature, or "Car and Key memory", is a totally different subject. Having said that, one of the aspects of the optional alarm is that the dealer would (unless you specifically ask them not to) activate the flashing LED in the "clown nose" on the rear view mirror and the turn signals flash (as well as a chirp from the siren). Many owners have had the dealership activate the clown nose etc on their vehicles sans alarm. I have mine flashing as I believe it acts as a good visual deterrent - obviously!! (now, Brave, no knocking the clown nose w/out alarm club please!)

kabadsv

$700 over invoice is the lowest I have seen on this board. jrc330, can you provide us with some of the negotiating tips that you used. This will benefit all of us. Thanks.

tenet1

Just picked up my 325 on Monday and I chose not do go for the DRL partly because I have Xenon's and also because my dealer told me that DRL are not a very popular choice by her customers.

The pre-programmable sheet that I got did not have too many features that I could pick. I went for almost everthing else such as 1)1 click unlocks driver door, 2 clicks unlocks both. 2) Doors lock after vehicle starts moving. 3) Seat position based on key used. These seems to be minor but decent features to get.

jrc330

Here are some negotiating tips that have worked for me over the years.
1) The biggest thing that you can do is research. Invoice pricing for the vehicle that you are looking for is a start, but you also need to understand invoice pricing or "dealer costs" for all the options you want including dealer installed options such as alarms, cd players, spoilers, lojack...There are ususally huge markups on these dealer installed options, and there is a lot of room for negotiating these items into the overall price of the vehicle. It helps to call the parts departments to find out invoice pricing for dealer installed options. If you have already purchased a vehicle at a dealer and have a relationship with the parts dept, they are usually willing to give out this info.
2) Shop around at different dealers and form relationships with salespeople. I hate the high pressure sales people and always look for a salesperson who is willing to spend time with me answering my questions and letting me go for test drives when appropriate. If you have done your research in step one, then the salesperson quickly figures out that you are for real and usually gives you the respect that you deserve.
3) Here is the most important step that has worked for me many times. Do not even think about talking money with the sales person until you are ready to commit to the purchase! Run your numbers at home, know what the car costs are, invoice vs. msrp vs TMV, include all options that you want in a spreadsheet. Know how much you can afford and choose a maximum price that you are willing to pay for your car! If you can get pre-approval on financing at this point that is even better so that you can go to the dealer with that covered already.
4) Go to the dealer, tell them you want to buy this car and have your salesperson put the order together on paper with pricing. After all the paperwork is drawn up make an offer lower then your maximum price (usually a few hundred above invoice) and tell the salesperson that you will sign on the dotted line for that price and you already have the money (if you did the finance pre-approval). You are now a sale, the salesperson can almost taste the commission. He or she will either give you a higher price or go talk with a manager. This is the grey area, the negotiation can go on for minutes or hours. Stand firm and try not to go up too much on your price. If you don't get the price you are looking for walk out, but usually a dealer will not lose a sale for $500 or less so if you can get within $500 of the price you and the dealer are negotiating on then everyone comes out happy. If the dealer won't budge, try a different dealer but at least you gave it your best shot and more than not you will get a deal that you are happy with.

Hope that helps.

brave1heart

Good to hear back from you. How's your MBA going? Seems like a great time to get good education in this economy. There will be a lot better job opportunities when you graduate in a year or two.

I did the steering retrofit a couple of months ago. If I'm not mistaken, my 325i was built the same week as your 330i and we both have (had) the steering fix that BMWNA introduced in the beginning of the year. The steering retrofit is great - I have absolutely no complaints. The steering is heavier and has better on-center feel. It tightens up considerably at higher speed and gives the car a much sportier feel. Make sure that your dealer is doing an alignment on all 4 wheels as part of the retrofit. From what I understand, this is part of the procedure but I've read that some dealers have skipped that step. Good luck, let us know how you make out.

genghis721

I have owned 3 awd/4wd vehicles over the past 10+ years (2 domestic, 1 import). The 4wd systems have never given me any maintenance problems nor increased cost (other than gearing lubrication, which is a paltry sum).

So, in my experience, an awd vehicle, if built well, should not introduce much in the way of "costly maintenance". Therefore, that aspect is not an issue for me -- basic performance is, however.

genghis721

"Braking and especially handling, however, will not be as good"

As long as it still beats out the other choice presently on our list, the Volvo S60, then it should be fine for us (the Jag X-type was ruled out after a noisy test drive and back-to-back compare with the 330)

cnorthrup

Thanks for the info.

Having them activate the clown nose sounds good until I figure out if I want to pay the $450 the dealer wants.

I am new here but do recall seeing something about installing alarm myself. Would this be a major problem as far as getting the alarm and not having to tear down my new car that I don't even have yet (2002 330i). Would the dealer still have to activate the alarm feature? I live in the Bridgeport, CT area.

Thanks Chuck

genghis721

"If you must have an AWD, don't let any of this stop you. It's a little like wearing a winter jacket in Houston to keep you from catching a cold, though."

Ha! I get your point.... though in Feb, the humidity makes 40 deg F seem awfully miserable.

I'm an engineer, so I tend to lean toward the most "secure design". I presently own a 4wd pickup (I know, you can't compare the two vehicles, but bear with me). With the frequent rains we get in SE TX, the 4wd makes driving much more secure compared to a rwd version of a car.

In the end, it's a "I'd like to have it because it's different than all the other 330s out there, and if I need it, I've got it" rather than for any real need.

genghis721

My comments on power and price came from test driving 528's a couple of yrs ago. Compared with other cars of that size/class, it was a dog on the throttle.

autoecon

Right on target with your negotiating tips, jrc330. I also got a great deal on my 2001 330i -- about $400 over cost, believe it or not. Dealers respond to you in a totally different way if you make it clear that you are a serious customer who is ready to buy. Do your research ahead of time and decide what you are willing to pay. If it's a car in stock, tell them you will take delivery that day if they give you the price you are looking for. This strategy can be especially effective at the end of a month if they need to beat a sales objective. Worst line to use in trying to get a good deal: "Give me your best price."

katkison

I just picked up my 330i in Houston Friday evening. I opted against the xi. With all the safety features, I felt comfortable driving the 330i, even with our severe rain storms. I have had the DSC kick in for a second (or fraction thereof) while starting from an intersection while going over a puddle. I wouldn't have even noticed, except for the blinking light.

I just wasn't willing to pay the extra money for what I considered a small increase in safety over what was already available. Now if I lived in a place where there was snow, I would get the xi.

Which dealership have you been talking to? I got a good (fair) deal on a 330i and I will give you my sales person's name and my experience with other dealers if you would like. You can e-mail me if you want the information.

BTW, I am VERY happy with our purchase. I love the car and get a big smile on my face every time I get in it! I can't wait until our house is finished and I have a longer commute to play with the car. Wow, never thought I would look so forward to spending more time driving to and from work.

Kelly

Katkison

dave330i

I agree with Katkison. It sounds like you don't need the xi. I would spend the extra money on advance driving school to fully enjoy your new BMW. Your local BMWCCA should have car control clincs, and advanced driving school as well.

brave1heart

Just wanted to mention that my 325i is great in the rain. I have had a chance to drive it fast in pouring rain and 1 inch of standing water and the DSC has not even come up. I think the car's stability in heavy rain is mostly due to the performance tires, long wheelbase for its class and somewhat to the 50/50 weight distribution. Performance tires perform better not only on dry roads, but on wet roads as well. Just as long as the reason for reduced traction (water in this case) can be pushed aside so the tires can grip the asphalt better. See, snow is a different case because the tires cannot push it aside like rain.

The key thing about AWD is that the tires grip better ONLY when accelerating. Most people buy AWD cars so they'd have extra security in everyday driving. However, if your car starts skidding unexpectedly, would you really remember to hit the gas pedal or would your first reaction be to hit the brakes? Most drivers would go for the brakes and experienced drivers would let off the gas till the car recovers stability. So most people would not take advantage of the AWD system when you really need it. I have taken our A4 1.8T Quattro rallying in heavy snow and it is truly amazing what it can do. For everyday driving year-round, though, I'd take a RWD even on Boston.

orientblue330i

Well, i picked up my 330i this past saturday, and love it, only problem is the amount of brake dust this thing puts out... thankfully the SP wheels are easy to clean...
well, my car came with the clown nose blinking and the turn signals flashing when i lock/unlock the car. If i wanted to install the alarm myself, will i need to get the dealer to activate it? or is it already activated? i have heard that if the clown nose is blinking and the turn signals flash when the doors are locked/unlocked, the alarm is already active, you just need to install the hardware... the only reason i ask is that my dealer refuses to activate the alarm unless i let them install it..
thanks!
-Ken

kominsky

Had my steering retro'd in early June... still loving it. My only complaint is that it is still more boosted than the 2000 323i that I had as a loaner car.

dantlo

We just returned our lease car 98 528i sp pkg which we enjoyed for 3 years. This car is not "fast" but has great handling and balance. It certainly is not as fast as a 3 series( I have a 2001 325i)but not a dog on the throttle but any means. It is in a class of its own
Dan

kabadsv

How much advertising cost should one really pay? Edmunds suggests the lower of 1% of MSRP or $200. Is it negotiable? Please share your experiences. Thanks.

twoof1

Advertising fee (at least here in So. Cal) is 1% of base MSRP before any options or packages. This may vary by region. Typically it is not negotiable but I guess anything is possible.

brave1heart

dantlo - You really think the 325 is faster than the 528? The 325 may feel a little faster off the start because of its weight advantage but overall, their acceleration numbers are very close. The added weight of the 528 is just about offset by the extra torque and slightly more HP of the bigger engine.

autoecon - $400 over invoice is only possible if you bought the car from your brother-in-law and he owed you a favor ) The going rate this year has been firmly in the $1,200 - $2,000 over invoice range. Maybe some dealers are hurting bad after the terrorist attacks and worsening economic conditions and are trying to move inventory. Most likely, you did not order the car, are not factoring in MACO and/or documentation fees and/or the car had been used as a demo model and/or it is a rare combination that had been sitting on the lot for months and the dealer was trying to give it away and/or there are other conditions in the deal that help the dealer make money. Clearly, no dealer BMW dealer would be in business for long if they sold 40-grand cars for $400 over invoice.

millerro3

but by my calculations, that's more than fair profit! In fact, they're makin' a killing @ 400 over! )

shipo

Fair profit is more like the going rate for a certain car in a certain market. Invoice + $400 is WAY under what every BMW dealer I have heard about for the last 3 years has gotten for a 3-Series.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gurumike

Find out what the parts are going to cost you from the parts dept. Check the prices against some "internet specials" BMW parts stores - this one is about as cheap as I've seen (!!)

http://www.cuttermotors.com/bmw/partspecial.html

Your local dealer might do the same deal. Then see how much the service dept want to just do the install. I figure they shouldn't charge more than $80 and I think I'd feel inclined to pay that and know that it's all done right rather than do it myself.

Hope this helps!

dubdubs

looking to get snow tires for my 325. dealership intalled Pirrelli's 210A with aluminum rims around $1300 CDN. Any other alternatives.

topspin627

Anyone out there have experience driving the 330 with sport package and high performance tires in snow? Is it worth it to go through the inconvenience of changing to snows for only 10-12 days per year maximum here in NY when there would be some white stuff on the roads?
Tire rack is praising a new pirelli tire as both high performance and all season. Any feedback appreciated.

genghis721

Thanks for the feedback. You all make excellent points on the RWD only with DSC. My friend just bought a 530, is a ROUGH character with his cars (he used to race), and says that HE can't get the thing to spin out with the DSC on (much to his chagrin... I'll warn you when I know he is on the road).

As for cost, I don't mind paying the extra $1500. The other thing that gets me to lean for the AWD is the possibility of driving in the NE and Rocky's on vacation, and in case of transfer. I also think AWD would set the car apart (in MY crazy little mind, no one elses :-) )

I've talked to the dealer on 59s and the one on 45n. 59s were pretty snobby, 45n seemed accomodating. If you have advice, feel free to provide it!

Kirk

genghis721

"...The key thing about AWD is that the tires grip better ONLY when accelerating. Most people buy AWD cars so they'd have extra security in everyday driving. However, if your car starts skidding unexpectedly, would you really remember to hit the gas pedal or would your first reaction be to hit the brakes? ..."

In 1991 I was in KS and had to drive 30+ minutes on a 2 lane road to work. KS gets ice and snow storms, as you may know. At the time I had a 1990 Toyota 4Runner 4WD. As luck would have it a norther blew through during the day after some rain and I had to try and drive home on an icy 2 lane.

Being from SE Texas, I was at first cautious and proceeded slowly (25mph?)in 4WD, but then got brave (ie stupid) and decided to increase my speed. I hit some black ice. This is a scary feeling for someone who had NEVER driven on snow or ice, especially with cars coming head on. Somehow, I remained calm, and let off the gas. I remembered back in the recesses of my brain from drivers school that "you should never slam on your brakes in ice". I didn't, but was getting nervous as the 4Runner started to yaw left and slide to the right into the oncoming lane. I turned the wheels to the right (how I had the snap to remember to do this, I'll never know), but still I slid. I decided "what the hell", and depressed the accelerator. After a fraction of a second the front wheels grabbed and I straightened out the skid. Luckily I passed through the ice onto normal road after that and I slowed to a crawl. I saw an IH Scout pass me a few minutes later then go into a spin and off into the milo field to the right. He got better traction there it seems!

Kirk