BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

habitat1

I am way out of my first hand knowledge league here, but I just thought I'd pass on some comments a friend of mine who has both a MS in mechanical engineering and a nice collection of exotic/sports cars shared with me the other night over a couple of beers. He is my appointed advisor for my upcoming new car purchase.

He claims that 90% of the recent trend by manufacturers to increase wheel size (and reduce aspect ratio) is being done purely for aesthetic reasons. And 95% of the result is not better handling, but higher profitability for replacement tire companies and alloy wheel manufacturers.

About the only manufacturer he gives any credit to for making adequate suspension modifications to handle large diameter, low aspect ratio tires is, in fact, BMW. (excluding pure sport manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, etc.) But, even then, he said only BMW's "M" cars are really built to warrant "40" aspect ratio tires. (He also rated Mercedes "AMG" cars and Audi "S" as "good").

My friend, Dave, noted that the most eggregious recent violation of the principal that the suspension and tires must be complimentary was the Lexus GS400. We have a mutual friend who bought one when they first came out (1998?) with the 17" wheel option. Dave describes it as a 300 horsepower Buick. And, in fact, our friend goes through his $700 a set tires almost as frequently as he changes his Mobil 1. As Dave said, there is a high cost to get .85 g performance out of a .75 g suspension using the tires to make up the difference.

So going back to your point about the fact that the standard 330i has 205/50HR17 wheels and tires and the non-sport version 530i and 540i have 225/55HR16 wheels and tires. Does that mean the standard 330i is set up to perform better than the 5-series, or look better? My guess is the latter, since the sport suspension is still an option.

What do you think?

P.S. I understand that the new 350Z may have 19/20" wheels. Where does this "mine are bigger than yours" stop?

jrct9454

I agree with your friend's analysis completely. Another excellent example is the IS300, a car whose freeway ride is ruined by a decision to equip virtually all of the cars on the West Coast with 45 series 17" perf tires...the 16" 55 profile tires that are allegedly optional are actually made of "unobtainium" for Calif customers...and this decision is all about impressing the automotive press and appealing to the boy-racer types.

It keeps getting better - more 18"s coming...open your wallets wider...

MarkinAtlanta

Absolutely. I have a 1998 that came with 205/60/15 (205mm width, 60 aspect ratio, 15 inch) tires. If I upgraded to 16" or 17" tires and alloys without doing any suspension upgrades, the car would handle worse, not better. And acceleration would be penalized too with heavier unsprung wheel/tires. Boy racer mentality, exactly.

genie1

When I lived in Indiana and drove to Detroit frequently (almost every weekend for about a year) I had never even heard of anyone switching to winter tires.

Its only when I moved to Toronto a couple of years ago that people recommended snows.

I will definitely be getting them for my car as it is my sole means of transportation to/from work. (Unless I car-pool with my brother).

Someone whose judgement I trust put it like this: It's better to spend $400 now to avoid $4000 of damage later.

derprofi

Great tire discussions going on here. Thanks for edumacating me.

Does that mean the standard 330i is set up to perform better than the 5-series, or look better? My guess is the latter, since the sport suspension is still an option.

I'm sure it's done partially for looks, but I believe all 330s come with sport suspension standard starting MY2001 or 2001.5 (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

ccotenj

1) it takes me a grand total of about 30 minutes twice a year to make the swap. not exactly a prison sentence.

2) guess i'm a member of the "better safe than sorry school". we do have wimpy winters in nj (vs. maine/nh where i learned to drive). that being said, we (in south jersey, anyway) get these neat little "surprise" storms.

3) yea, the snows don't exactly hold the road. i agree there. i'm willing to sacrifice 4 months of "bad" to get the 8 months of "good" rather than have 12 months of "mediocre".

oh well. i can understand where you guys are coming from though.

-Chris

ps. shipo, if you turn into vtech, we'll force you to sell the bimmer...

genie1

dave330i

That's too cruel.

cnorthrup

I have strayed from the winter tire topic to the aspect of protecting a new cars paint job here in the Northeast. I am expecting early December delivery of a steel blue metallic 330i so besides deciding what to do about winter tires I would like some feedback on how to treat my car right for it's first winter season.

I have heard mentioned that because of the car/paint coming from Germany that it needs some special consideration?

Other questions:

Can I wax it right away?

Should I polish it first, then wax it?

What products should I use?... I do not have a lot of spare time so would need something that would not take days to do.

How about the wheels?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
CNorthrup

shipo

When I was fussing about the different minimum wheel sizes between the 330i and the 530i, it was from the perspective of the brake size of each car. When BMW replaced the 328i with the 330i, in addition to adding engine displacement and power, they also added larger more powerful brakes, hence the larger minimum wheel size (16" for the 328i and 17" for the 330i). Given that the 530i has a minimum wheel size of 16", I was speculating that the 330i actually has more powerful brakes than the larger and heavier 530i. So far, I have been unable to verify that suspicion.

As far as wheel size goes, if you want larger brakes, you must have larger wheel sizes. To fit said larger wheels into a given fender opening, you must then decrease the width of the sidewall of the tires that fit between said wheel and said fender. Suspension calibration not withstanding, IF a manufacturer takes advantage of the larger interior diameter within the wheel (by mounting larger brakes), you still have a benefit even if the suspension cannot quite keep up with the tires.

Of course, there is the flip side to this, and we see examples of this almost every day. Look at almost any fully “Riced” vehicle and you will see enormous 18” through 20” wheels and tiny little 9” brakes inside surrounded by a whole lot of air. I just bet those things stop real well, NOT!

On the subject of snow tires, I actually think that for winter driving (at least here in northern NJ), that snow tires would be too much of a compromise. Given how few REAL snow days we have here and how bad REAL snow tires handle on dry pavement, I suspect that the best rubber for my car for winter driving is all season rubber. So, now I guess that means that I need to buy a new set of wheels and tires for SUMMER driving and then remount my all-seasons for next winter.

Derprofi,

You are correct, all 330i sedans currently come equipped the sport suspension, like you, I am not sure of the exact date when that took effect.

Ccotenj,

“ps. shipo, if you turn into vtech, we'll force you to sell the bimmer... ”

Ouch! ;-)

Genie1,

“can we make him replace the Bimmer with an Aztec?”

Double OUCH! In fact, a fate worse than death. I think I will hang on to my Bimmer and just make this a long post instead. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

burrsr

I, too, appreciate the tire conversation going on here. I also have the non-SP equipped 330i, and the tires seem to perform fine. However, I plan to test-drive a SP-equipped 330i in a few weeks (already looking at lease-end options 2 years out!) for comparison purposes. The performance difference would have to be SIGNIFICANT in order to convince me of absorbing the extra time/expense of swapping twice/year. Of course, once our house is built and we actually have a GARAGE, I might be more easily swayed...

Shipo made an interesting point -- I'd also like to see any data on how a SP-equipped 330i with ALL-SEASONS (225mm width fronts, 245mm width rears) stacks up versus one with the performance rubber. It's too bad tire selections are not a factory option -- same wheels, suspension, and seats, just a few different "rubber" options to choose from.

dave330i

for everyday driving, the difference between all-season & performance should be minimal. On the track, experienced drivers tell me upgrading tires can shave several seconds off your lap time.

MarkinAtlanta

Sure Dave, but how often (and how long) do you drive just at the maximum grip/adhesion level your tires can handle. You do it constantly on the track, you shouldn't do it on the street (well, maybe every once in awhile you try and hit the apex perfectly). Mark - who replaced his All Seasons with Summer Performance tires and rarely makes use of them. But, I'm not complaining, just my personal experience. Car does handle a little better. ))

burrsr

Makes sense -- I guess it boils down to whether the extra hassle/expense of performance/snows swapping is worth a few seconds at the track. And, as Brave said, the all-seasons have a more progressive approach to the limit, whereas the performance tires may break free more abruptly, albeit at a higher limit. For my intended purposes, it's too bad the SP is not offered with all-seasons -- cost difference would probably be negligible.

dave330i

as I've mentioned, on the street, one should rarely see the difference between the 2 tires, most of the time. And you are right about pushing your car to the limit on the street. It should only be done in a controlled environment.

div2

I'm not so sure that A/S tires have more progressive breakaway characteristics as a general rule. A/S tires will tend to have lower adhesion limits, however. Now, since summer tires are better than A/S tires in the summer, and winter tires are better than A/S tires in severe winter conditions, it makes sense for me to have dedicated sets of tires. Horses for courses, as the Brits say...

brave1heart

Lager rim/tire diameter achieves higher speed at equivalent RPM's, including higher top speed. It's common sense - at the same revolutions, there is a bigger diameter rolling, so the car travels further/faster. BTW, they use 17-inch wheels in CART racing but I'm not sure if that's a regulation or truly the sweet spot for performance. Those race cars weigh only about 1,600 lbs (less than half the 3-series' weight!!!) and bigger tires/rims may be increasing the weight unduly. Especially the unsprung weight.

Quantifying performance tires vs. all-seasons - the 325i SP is good for .86 g at the skidpad. The non-SP stock setup and rubber are good for .82, so that's a pretty significant difference. The questions, though, is how much of that .04 g difference is attributed to the tires alone and how much to the stiffer suspension. My guess would be at the skidpad, the tires play a bigger role than the suspension.

brave1heart

Does anyone know the top speed rating of popular snow tires like the Blizzak LMs? I vaguely remember seeing 90-something...

brave1heart

There is nothing you need to do to protect the paint of your new Bimmer. I think it is ironic to spend so much money on a car and then have to immediately care for the paint. I'm not buying into the Zaino school and it seems that you wouldn't want to spend too much time on it either. BTW, the car will be already waxed when you pick it up. What I do is wax it twice a year - typically once in the Spring and once in the fall. I do wash it more often during the winter to take the salt from the roads down, that's all. I use Mother's wax which I picked up at the dealer's.

brave1heart

There, Shipo. You're not alone. The v_tech legacy lives )

habitat1

On the one hand, your suggestion that larger wheels may allow for larger brakes sounds logical. However, does that mean that anyone getting a new 330i would have to stick with 17" wheels for snow tires? I thought most snow tire packages went to a 1" smaller diameter wheel and higher profile tire. If the brake size has been increased so as not allow 16" wheels, that would severly limit the snow tire option for a 330i, no?

genie1

when Dave takes away your Bimmer...

Would you prefer the Avalanche or the Escalade EXT?

ps: Can I have your Bimmer?

jrct9454

The minimum I've seen for the most widely available tire/wheel packages are Q-rated tires, which imply a top SUSTAINED speed of 99 mph. If any of you intend to SUSTAIN 100 mph with winter tires in winter conditions anywhere in the USA, I guess you had better move up the speed rating list. Also please let me know where you are so I can plan to be somewhere else while you conduct this test...

shipo

Brave,

Welcome to the former Bimmer/new Aztek owners club. ;-)

If the 325i SP with 225/45R-17 performance tires can turn @ .86 and the stock 325i non-SP with 205/55R-16 all-season tires can turn @ .82, what do you suppose that a 325i SP with 225/45R-17 all-season tires can do? Maybe .84 or .85?

Habitat1,

If you look back a few (hundred) posts or so, I seem to remember somebody posting that the folks at TireRack.com have had a special 16" alloy wheel made that will just barely fit the 330i. Other than that single wheel, it is my understanding that the 330i MUST have 17" wheels mounted on all 330i cars.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tenet1

Are the cupholders and the storage area in the rear seat armrest of a 2001 325i only available with certain options/packages.

My rear armrest doesn't seem to have these even though they are specified in the manual

brave1heart

It must be that big juicy round number coming up. Guru's been profoundly quiet - I bet he's sitting in front of the fastest computer he could find, his 10K post waiting and finger on the mouse ready for action ;o)

dave330i

I want that post. ;-)

Got my steering retro-fit scheduled for next Thursday. It only took 4 months.

burrsr

The larger the overall circumference (or diameter, whichever you prefer) of the tire, the higher-geared the car is. Yes, Brave is right -- a larger tire circumference = a higher speed for a given RPM, but it also yields slightly worse acceleration. Tire circumference factors into the car's overall drive ratios.

This is another reason for lower-proifile tires: to keep the same tire circumference while increasing the wheel size, the profile must decrease. That's why you see 19" 35 aspect ratios tires, not 65 aspect ratio (and conversely, why you don't see 14" 35 aspect ratio tires, except maybe for "riced" cars).

shipo

You are so correct Sir. I haven't seen this much activity since the days last spring where we could roll up 1,000 posts in something like 8 or 9 days. There is nothing like a good debate to get things rolling.

I have said this before (like 8,000 posts ago), but I think it is worth repeating. Over the years, I have read and contributed on many message boards, and I have always been very impressed with the level of thoughtful discussion here as well as the level of consideration that we seem to have for others who share dissimilar views (v_tech not withstanding). It is for these reasons that we are able to discuss wide-ranging topics where everybody learns and benefits from the discourse. Keep it up folks.

Brave1heart, I think it is time for you to re-institute your “Friday afternoon group hug”. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

A VERY long time ago Car and Driver compared a stock E12 528i to a H&B 528i modified with Alpina parts. They switched the Alpina's wide wheels and gumball tires onto the stock E12 and were able to get darn near the same skidpad and slalom numbers as the Alpina. I think the suspension itself is more of a factor in real-world road/track driving situations.

brave1heart

both the Avalanche and the Escalade EXT are so classy and stylish that it would be a tough choice. I'd look really cool as I'm ploughing my backyard with either of them ;o)

brave1heart

I guess they'd be good for .84 at least, assuming they are the same size as the SP's. BTW, I am subscribed to three magazines (C&D, Automobile, and european car) but lately it's been getting very tough for me to keep up.

brave1heart

A/S tires do have more progressive breakaway characteristics as a general rule. Their sidewalls are higher and less stiff than those in performance tires and they flex more. Because of that, they typically start squealing before they give in. The performance tires' sidewalls are very low and much stiffer, which allows the tires to hold the corner better, as if the car were on rails. The drawback, however, is that when they give, they do it fast. Think what happens to an object that has high resistance capabilities against an increasingly stronger force - at some point, it is break into pieces fast from the pressure instead of cracking slowly. Patrick Bedard from C&D had a very good article that explains all that a few months back. He has a lot of racing experience and knows his stuff very well. I think the article was titled extremist tires (defined as those have aspect ratio < 50) or something like that.

brave1heart

For me, personally, a top speed rating of 99 mph would be of serious concern. While I'll never come close to that speed on snow, I still do a lot of highway driving at sustained high speed when it's dry during the winter and I don't want to have to think 'Well, geez, what if I get a little carried away (never happened before ;o) ) and go over the speed rating. It may not be for a sustained period of time but just the thought of coming close to that rating even for a second is giving me a lot of discomfort.

brave1heart

How does this work indeed? Assuming 17's are the only choice (not sure if 1/8 of clearance over the brakes in the custom 16's offered by the Rack is adequate), you'd have to stay with snows that have aspect ratio of 45, no? As in 205/45/17. If you go with a higher profile tire on the same size rim, there are two problems: first, there will be almost no room left for suspension travel in the wheel well; second, the car's speed will be consistently understated and the speedometer will have to be recalibrated twice a year, right?

ccotenj

speed ratings are "sustained speeds" not "maximum speeds".... i believe someone pointed that out before...

dunno where you live, but if i drive at "sustained speeds" of more than 99 mph, i ain't gonna have a license very long...

-Chris

ccotenj

don't believe everything patrick bedard says...

-Chris

shipo

Not to muddy the water any further (Yeah Right!), there are "all-season" tires on the market, and then there are "ALL SEASON" tires on the market. As a point of reference, I just looked at the TireRack.com site for a list of all season rubber that matches the tires on the 325i SP and the front tires on the 330i SP and here is what I found in order of sporting potential (I think):

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 225/45YR17 $212.00
Pirelli P7000 Supersport 225/45ZR17 $143.00
Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 225/45HR17 $168.00
Michelin Pilot XGT H4 225/45HR17 $146.00

From what I was told by a friend over at MBUSA, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S are actually great tires that happen to have All Season capabilities, however, he thinks that either they are not being made any more or they are made in limited production runs so their availability is limited.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dave330i

pushed hard enough, the performance tires will squeal. They need to be pushed harder than all-season, but they do.

I wonder who's going to get 10k post?

genie1

I'm in a "Ask and ye shall receive" mood this week.

On Monday I asked a guy if I could get a ride in his DB7 Vantage. Can't wait...

dave330i

for MY2002, 330i SP has the 18" wheel option. What's people's opinion regarding this option? Personally, I think that's too much. Granted, M3 has 18", but it also has stiffer suspension, and 100+ hp.

If I make 9 more post I can get 10k. :-)

dave330i

I asked a co-worker if he could give me a lift in his GM truck. Does that count? ;-)

8 more to go. ;-)

genie1

It only counts if it costs as much as a house in NA. Or a small third world country.

dave330i

I get to do my High-Performance Driving School at Laguna Seca in Feb. Hopefully, I can win the lottery.

Also, house in SF area are ~500k. Can't think of a single car that expensive.

brave1heart

genie1

Get a ride in that one and then we'll talk

500k huh? That would buy a nice 4-5BR/3car garage mini-mansion in some parts of TO. In others thats just a cottage.

brave1heart

brave1heart

Looks like a big round number to me ;o)

genie1

I'll settle for the first of the new batch.

shipo

Brave1heart gets 10K, now let's see if somebody deletes a post and robs him of it.

Best Regards,
Shipo