Lexus ES 300/ES 330
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Comments
We ordered it on our '99 ES300. We keep our cars for a long time (8-10 years or more), & we figured that if VSC saved our bacon just once, it would be worth the $440 (invoice price) that we paid for it. It kicked in once last winter while we were climbing an icy hill. Can't say that it prevented an accident, but I found it reassuring. Incidentally, you can shut it off. (We never do.)
Re AVS: we decided not to get it after hearing from a friend that if we did, we'd play with it for a month & then leave it in the "normal" setting.
Anyway. I'd like to see:
More rear seat room.
Power rear shade
Navigation system
More horsepower
Much more sound deadening
Kill the rimless front windows
Power tilt wheel integrated with memory seats and mirrors
I think the 2002 ES300 will probably go the same way. Bigger, more powerful, but probably remain as a refined car rather than a sports car, especially since the Lexus IS300 is doing so well.
As wenyue said, expect it to be bigger more powerful, more feature packed, and still remain more luxury than sport. And I wouldn't expect the price to go any higher than it is today.
By the time you load an ES300 up with the typical options it is not priced competitively.
The options are overpriced and many optional items are standard on competing cars.
As far as you mentioning options. In the long history of Lexus (11 Years), no 6-Cylinder Lexus ever had a Moonroof or Leather Standard (Save the LX 450).
I'd expect to see the new ES start under the 30K mark, like the C-Class does for 2001. However, you will rarely see a stripped-down model of either. Owners of the Acura 3.2TL can see where Acura cut corners to get the car that cheap, and if they can't, they're lying.
The reason the C-class creeps in below $30K is because you get the smaller 2.6L V6 engine with it. The ES300 will continue with only one engine choice, that being a 3.0L V6 or larger.
Plus the ES300 will continue to be built in Japan meaning it will cost more than a 3.2TL, and the higher value of the yen right now and in the forseable future means that a price cut is very unlikely when the new one comes out. You can also expect to see some new standard features that are now optional, like the 6CD changer will be standard for 2002.
That sounds pretty arrogant like Mercedes Benz in 1989 before Lexus came out.
I think most people believe Lexus is somewhat nicer or more prestigous than an Acura or Infiniti, but when the price ends up several thousand more on a $30K range price class, people start questioning if it is really worth that much of a price difference.
$37K for a loaded ES doesn't look attractive.
The ES300 is priced in between lower cars like the I30 and Acura 3.2TL and Mercedes-Benz C280/C320 and BMW 330i. Again, because of Lexus' higher prestige level than Acura & Infiniti, Lexus is going to charge more for the car. Please don't expect Lexus to price the ES300 at Acura 3.2TL or Infiniti I30 levels. Quite simple you shouldn't think that because its not going to happen. Unless out of nowhere Infiniti or Acura suddenly turns into a car with the level of prestige of a Lexus or even higher like a Benz. You think thats happening in the near future???
Here's another simple theory. The Acura 3.2TL & Infiniti I30 are priced lower than the ES300 because they know they couldn't sell a loaded 3.2TL or Infiniti I30 for $35K-$37K.
Have you seen were the ES300 has been ranking in the most recent comparison tests?
This is exactly the same as the situation when Lexus came out in 1989. Mercedes did not drop their prices right away because they felt the Mercedes name was enough to command any price they wanted.
Without any serious competion, that may have been right.
In 1989 Mercedes probably said something similar to what you posted. "Lexus is selling their 1990 LS400 for $35K because they know they couldn't sell it for what we charge for our S class."
The previous-generation TL and I30 were not that appealing and really were not selling that well. The current ones are much improved and are selling much better as the result (especially the TL).
The new LS430 is much higher priced than a 1990 LS400, but compared to a Mercedes S-class, it is still aggressively priced.
If they are pricing the ES300 significantly higher than a TL or I30, people are going to see where the money went. They will want everything the competing cars have plus better looks, significantly richer materials and better driving feel than the competion not just a Lexus name badge.
The ES is only slightly more than the TL and I30, and significantly less than a C class or 3 series. (since the Germans have gone to a practically no discount pricing structure) Sure, you can say that the TL and I30 are a little sportier...but, still not close to Bimmer territory. I really like the MB and BMW, but, I don't like spending a lot of time in the service department. I would say there is a certain amount of compromise in most cars at every price point...I like what Lexus has chosen to emphasize.
Also, you must remember we are at the end of model cycle for the current ES...so, I would expect some improvements when the new body style is introduced soon.
Vern
I don't think the current aging ES model is a good value for what you get, but when the new model comes out and it then becomes the most modern design compared to the competition, that could change.
Even though I expect it to cost more as usual, if there is substance and additional refinement that you can see and feel it might be worth it.
I certainly hope the styling does not get messed up with the new design.
As far as HID's, now just realize that the only cars in the Lexus lineup that have HID's standard are the IS and the new LS/GS4. It looks like Lexus is trying to work them more in the lineup, with them standard now on 3 cars for 2001. However they're still an option on the GS3, ES, RX, and not available for 01 on the LX (the SC is gone for 01, but expect them to be std. on the new SC for 2002). So, that may go either way.
enigmaone,
You're probably right, the ES price will probably stay at the 31 mark it's at right now, but I'd like to see it a little lower, possibly where the C260 is (I know it's really called the 240). Mainly, because Lexus started out giving you as good or a better car than europe at a cheaper price, and they continued it with the LS 430 starting at 54K.
The ES may continue at 31, and if it does, they will sell all that they can make, but it would be nice to see it start under 30, and maybe show Acura TL owners the light.
The new styling might be boring or it might be worse than boring and actually be ugly.
They might get too bold with price increases despite hot competition from Mercedes, Acura and Infiniti. Anything is possible.
s852,
THe reason the ES300 mainly ranks down low now on comparison tests is because of age. It is now in its 5th and last year of production and I wouldn't expect it to place #1 or #2. Second, the current ES300 platform dates back to 1992 which is another reason why it ranks mid-pack at highest. And third it is more expensive than the 3.2TL. But if you notice the 3.2TL is really the only car that is cheaper in its class by a wide margin than the ES300. The I30 is not that much cheaper. A similarly loaded I30 is about $2k less and as I said before some of its other main competitors in the real world(C-class, S70, 328i) cost more.
Personally, at its current price level its priced only a little high(by about $1K) and mainly the only option that is a rip-off on the ES300 is the CD-changer. Of course for 2002, The CD-changer will be standard and HIDs will probably be standard.
Also, I will say that Lexus has no reason to sink its price to the level of the Acura 3.2TL. Acura doesn't have the image of Lexus therefore they have to sell cars for less to get their name out and improve their image. Lexus on the other hand, has made their name already and can sell cars at a higher price level, so they will. As you can tell, they are also not charging Mercedes Level prices.
If after seeing and driving it, if most buyers are willing to pay $33K for the new model loaded with the most common options (leather moonroof, heated seats, CD changer) and Lexus prices it at $35K at that equiptment level, then dealers will have to discount them to that price or else they will need to cut production to match the number of people willing to pay $35K.
If MSRP is at right where people are willing to pay, then they will sell for MSRP. If the MSRP is lower, then dealers will be able to get a markup over sticker.
I'm sure when they first come out, the combination of the initial novelty of the new model and the fact that the factory will not yet have ramped up to full production speed will result in poor deals for the first buyers.
Any thoughts??
He said the 2002 ES will be in showrooms by September. Sales Manager has seen some pix and everything he hears is that the ES will go through a pretty extensive change (like LS). Bigger interior, Standard HID lights, Lexus link system, etc. Might be sales hype, but I tend to believe him.
Let us know if anyone finds any pix/info on the new ES on-line.
Thanks
If you're looking or hoping for the 2002 ES300 to be priced like a 3.2TL, stop hoping now.
liev
I just wanted to share some of my experience to maybe give you a little perspective on feeling "cheated". My mother drives a 2000 RX 300, my father drives a 2001 LX 470 and I have a 2001 ES 300 on order.... Each of us has paid below sticker (allowing the dealer fair profit of course) and in all of our experience with Lexus we have never been more satisfied. Once you own an automobile of this caliber you will understand. Yes it is an investment, yes it is expensive but in my experience, it is not possible to purchase so much car for the same or less money. Lexus goes to great lengths to satisfy their customers and it would be very difficult for them to do that if they were cheating people. In fact I would say it is hard for any car company to cheat their customers due to the fact that there are so many options available in the market today. Perhaps it is your dealer or maybe the way it is being explained is not in a manner that you are understanding. Regardless, it is probably wise to get a quote from another dealer or an internet buying service....compare numbers...see what happens. My advice is BUY THE CAR, by the time you get out of the parking lot, that feeling of being cheated will be a distant memory. Best wishes.
If you can put off the purchase of your 2001 ES300 until January or a little longer, you should be able to get some really deap discounts as the current body style is phased out for the 2002s. Any 2000 cars ES300 cars left now should also be heavily discounted. Go back over the last 3 months worth of posts in this forum to follow several buyers negotiations (including my own. Posters struck deals in the $31-$32K for either a VP+extras or Platinum edition 2000 cars. Many tips and information sources were shared.
Does anyone know if the new 2002 coming next year is a totally brand new design from the ground up or is it just one of those major upgrade from the current model??? Any link that I can get to see
a picture of it??? Thanks guys. BTW, I think Lexus
cars have much better reliability than MB or BMWs.
Pictures and details are sketchy as of right now, but I have seen a camoflaged photo of what looks to be the new Camry. It has a little bit lower front end (I know, it's pretty low now).
And yes, Lexus reliability is MUCH better than the Germans (and the english for that matter).
The $1500 subtracted on the sticker price is not really a discount. Its basically marketing. What Lexus does is give the customer a $1500 discount by buying the Value package which has the options bundled in it. Otherwise, if you bought the options separately, you would spend $1500 more at retail price for each option.
For example.
No value package:
Leather trim package: $1885.00
CD-changer: $1,080.00
Moonroof: $1,000.00
This totals to: $3,965.00
Now with the Lexus Value package all 3 of the above option package are lumped into one package for $1,965.00.
Thereby this yields you a $2,000 savings, on the sticker price of the vehicle.
The one trying to cheat you on the deal is your dealer, not Lexus NA. Don't fall for what your dealer says, of the discount already being there. Look at the MSRP vs. Invoice for a ES300 the way you want it equipped, with the Value package and heated seats(I think you want them?) not with each individual option.
The weird headlights does seems to match the looks of the latest Lexuses and it looks more like an ES300 than the Previs drawings. I do think the Previs styling is much less offensive though.
Thanks for the advice given from each of you. I just found out that I can use a referral service call MVCP. The price I'm given is is 1860 above invoice. This makes my life a lot easier. By the way, mafitch, how much is your ES300 which is on order? Do you mind to share this info with me?
Again, thanks all
liev
I have heard that Lexus is not very willing to bargain. Does anyone out there have any idea of how much Lexus might be willing to bargain? I'm looking at a dealer invoice of about $31K and MSRP of a little over $35K. I usually shoot for about 2-3% over invoice: is that unrealistic?
Vern
I'll have you know that I had looked through previous posts! In fact I spent over 2 hours looking through various postings ranging from useful, to caustic barbs being exchanged. The most current topic that I found that dealt with pricing of the 2000 ES300 Platinum was back in April 00. I was hoping that someone who had RECENTLY purchased an ES300 would be willing share their experience with me.
Sorry, if the suggestion offended you, this was not the intent, the intent was not to repeat information already available in previous posts, in case you hadn't perused them yet.
As for time frame, since we are at the end of the model year...you should expect an even better deal than any of the previous posts. I would say asking to pay dealer invoice would be reasonable...and letting the dealer keep the holdback as his profit. So, at this point in time, I think 2-3% above invoice is not reasonable, but 1% above maybe.
Much has to do with supply/demand in your area, if there is only one Lexus dealer in your area...chances for a good deal are not promising. On the other hand, if you are willing to travel to an area where there are many Lexus dealers...chances for a good deal increase dramatically. (such as here in the Miami area)
I found using the free internet car services...like autobytel.com quite useful in getting an idea of how much local dealers are willing to discount...internet salesman seem to know people utilizing this service are interested in a substantial discount.
Anyways, hope this helps you in your decision and negotiations...and hopefully you'll buy the car everyone at this site admires...you will notice there are not many complaints about the ES...compare that with other car forums.
Good Luck,
Vern
You should be able to get, in most areas, a very good discount off of a 2001 ES300. I would expect at least a $2K to $3K discount and probably more being that the 2001 is the last production year for the 2nd generation ES300.
My local dealer (lawrence lexus) wasn't willing to come down on price at all, but I can see their point - they do put a lot into the certified cars.
I opted for non-certified, and 12,000 miles later, everything has been great. No problems at all.
Also, given that several of us have purchased VP+ and Platinum cars for $31-$32K recently, a 1997 or 1998 car with 30K mi (+/-) for the mid 20s just doesn't make sense to me. That's 80% of current value for a new car. I mean, these cars do hold their value but a 97 is 4 model years old now. Most cars are looking at 40-60% residual value at this point and the very best of them generally do not exceeed 70%.
Or is there something I'm just missing here?
How do you calculate your MPG? Maybe my numbers are jumbled?
How about you Enigma, any suggestions on improving my gas mileage, oh wise one? How far can you go once warning light on gas gauge illuminates?
Rolloman
Something is either wrong with your ES300 or you can't do math(not trying to insult you). My parents 1995 ES300 with 92K miles on the odo. gives over 25 mpg all the time on trips with the A/C on. Just came back from a trip from here in NJ to Pittsburgh and back in my parents LS400 and I even got about 27MPG with the A/C off but in mountaineous driving at a average speed of about 70mph.
When your light comes on you have about 2 1/2 gallons remaining.
Try this,
Next time you go on a trip, fill up your tank but only fill it up until the nozzle shuts off. Don't click it again to put that extra $0.50 in so that it hits a even dollar amount. Get going on your trip. Drive on the highway until your needle gets to the 1/2 or 1/4 mark. Refill the tank the same way as I stated above and calculate based on that.
Also, do you keep your tires fluffed up to proper or greater PSI? I keep my ES300 at about 29. I think 26 is too low and it seems 29-30PSI is keeping the tires going longer.
I always fill up then drive til light comes on and divide the total mileage by 18 (size of gas tank)...is this not correct?
I'll take your advice on the double fill-up method even though I don't exactly understand it.
Thanks from the Mathematically challenged.
Dividing your miles by 18 (fuel tank capacity) would only work if you literally filled the tank with 18 gal and than ran it until it ran out of fuel, and then checked the fuel tank to make sure it was bone dry, rather than having one or two gal sloshing around below the point of the fuel pickup.
Does this help or make it worse?
How do I know when the needle is EXACTLY at 3/4 or 1/2 tank?...or does it matter?
As you can see, I didn't pass "Gas" in school.
Thanks for your kind patience.
1. fill up gas until auto shutoff, and don't add additional gas after shutoff.
2. zero your trip odometer
3. drive on the highway for a long distance (say min. of 100 miles or until ur needle move at least 1/4 of the range--the more the better) with constant speed as much as possible (don't cruise too fast because that'll burn more gas than normal)
4. stop at a gas station (ideally the exact same one. at least find the same brand) and fill up until auto shut off.
5. gas mileage ~= (miles in the trip odometer)/(amount of gallon in the second fill up)
Happy experimenting!
I think I've got it now. I'll let you know what kind of mileage I get.
You guys are awesome.