You are exactly right about Edmunds reviews of the Rio vs. Echo re: the safety factor. In fact, Edmunds gives overall postive reviews not only of the Rio but the Hyundai Accent, Suzuki Swift, and Mitsubishi Mirage, all right in the Echo tiny weight range (the Swift weighs even less) but no mention of any safety concerns with any of those cars, nothing about bad resale value (the Suzuki Swift??) The Echo is the ONLY one they urge people not to buy, and it's probably the best quality car of any of the above! It's obvious Edmunds is trying to strike a balance by cleaning up the language from the first bad review (give 'em credit for that at least) but sticking to their guns with their original negative comments to save face. But anybody looking at the above reviews, including Edmunds if they read this, can see they're singling out the Echo selectively apparently because they don't like the looks, etc. As I've said in earlier posts it's fair game to knock the looks or the instrument panel if you don't like them, but that safety warning on the Echo alone is really out of line, proving an obvious subjective bias against the car. Although it remains to be seen, I'm also sure the Echo resale value will ultimately be much better than the Focus, based simply on owners' experience, reputation and number of serious problems found in one car and not the other. Edmunds' jumping on that weird point is just trying to make their case any way they can.
From a previous post I read that Consumer Reports is now recommending the Echo; so much for Edmunds' take on the car. Have to see how their review evolves further next year and beyond....
I did think the Echo pricing was deceptive by the way, but since I didn't look closely at too many other cars I don't know how it compares. I just knew I was glad I didn't spend $4,000 more on an -overpriced VW New Beetle with lots of problems and bad resale value. But I wouldn't have learned that from Edmunds; I learned only from reading the horror stories of owners in that forum.
I also don't like power windows or cruise control at all, so I guess the Echo was made for me...The wind susceptibility is about the only thing I would classify as a problem once in awhile.
Just as Democrats back Democrats,Republicans back REpublicans...Edmunds 'finds' in house people to support their 'unbiased' views. Shocking! Read Consumer Reports and their test of the Echo. Find the Toyota Echo listed in their coveted Recommended list (Buying Guide 2001).
For Echoluvrst: Yes I thought the overall tone of the Edmunds article was strangely negitive. I think they made good observations about crash concerns, and the fact that the ECHO is not likely to hold its value as the Civic. (but the Civic is not a small car anymore) They seemed to castegate Toyota just for MAKING a car like Echo, which was wrong. It was like, it made them ANGRY or something. They need to concentrate on the facts. For people who want a small economical car, ECHO is the top choice.
Oh well... I have owned my Echo for one week already. What can I say... still not very used to it. I think it's because I'm still in the break-in period.
According to the manual, we're not suppose to go beyound 55 mpg for the first 1000 miles, and don't hard brake in the first 200 miles.....
I broke those rules in the first few days! I was very concern about that so I asked the dealer, they said the Echo doesn't need break-in. So all Echo owners, what do you think? For the first 2 days, the car was very very quite, the third day (after driving up to 65 mph for 2 days, and 1.5 mile trip each), the car sound louder, especially in the first and second gear. I feel like the pickup is not that strong, the 1st gear can only go up to 15 mpg and make loud noise already...The first gear and second gear is still sometime hard to shift into.
Ok, in this senerio, is that because I'm used to the engine's sound or what? By lound I didn't mean very very loud. My friend went for shopping the other day, they listened to it and said it's fine, and very quite.
echoluvrst, the snow lastweek was nothing... After use the car for 5 days... it's kind of dirty, got bird dropping at my office the otherday, damn bird!
Anyway, I sent my car in for them to put on the wheel lock, and they wash it for me! He he he.... now my car is shinning again!
Well, yesterday, when I drove on Shawnee Mission parkway, I saw another Red Echo, and I horned that car, but got no response, Melody, was that you? We drove side by side for a while.
Oh, did I tell you what's my friends' reponse after seeing my Echo?... they like it, especially the gauge, the while backgroup make them easier to read. When I open the trunk after shopping to put our stuff in, they were stunded... it's big!!!! When were're shipping, I bought a very very cude ladybird doll, the red bug just goes very well with my Red Echo, I left that bug on my dashboard today... they'are so cute!
Ok, have to get back to work. Will leave to Chicago tomorrow for a seminar, will be back soon.
PS: Doesn anyone have links to website that sell aftermarket Echo parts? I need to get a water proof mat for my Echo... it's going to snow and things are going to get wet, muddy and... yuck.
I just wanted to let you know that if you get an Echo that is not equipped with any complete packages ie, 1 or 2, you get mirrors that are only adjustable by rolling down the windows and reaching out. I know this because that's the way my Echo is equipped.
80 mph from Sac, CA, to SF, CA. Nice cruise control, smooth transition from level to up hill, a little jolty from uphill to downhill. Took hills nicely after shifting to 1. Responsive steering. Overall, I'm impressed.
No there isn't if it's an SE model. But if it had a rear spoiler on it, it's definitely a ZTEC model. If not, then you don't know since the twin cam engine is available on all SE models with or without the Sport package. It probably was though, because most SEs out there are.
Dianne here, checking in to report my seafoam 2-dr 2000 Echo, my little commuter car, with 24,750 miles on it, is still wonderful! Mileage average 41MPG. Rear vibration vanished at the last fix when they adjusted the placement of the trunk-latch cables... and that also corrected the sporadic non-working trunk remote lever.
I want to get more Echos on the road. Mine's the best $12000 I ever spent! If you are in CA and want a killer deal, email dianne@earthlink.net and that's all I have to say!
If you go to the Toyota Everyday page and look under FAQ's it says all Toyota's when new should not exceed 4000 rpm's for the first 1k miles. (the ECHO OM DOES says limit speed to 55 for the first 1000 miles) If the ECHO goes 100 mph at 6000rpm (its rev limit) then it should go about 66 at 4000 rpm. So as long as you didn't exceed that, you should be OK. But I KNOW you DID so your new ECHO is probably toast. Tell you what. Just leave the keys in it and park it outside of your house and I'll come get it and take it Back to NJ for some tests and let you know....it shouldn't take more than two or three years and we'll know if you did any dammage.
How do I know the rpm? There is no tacometer in Echo. I think it is fine, or it could be because I'm over worry about it.
I finally had a chance to sit in a Focus... guess what, the interior is not well designed... My friend gave me a ride to work and he has a stick version of Focus with cd player... I looked at the audio system, they're fine, but seems like something is missing. And then I realize there is no room to keep cd cases. The Echo has more room for cd cases and other stuff. My Echo is queiter than the Focus... so I think I'm doing fine.... He he he... if I were to leave my key in the car and wait for you to come down and take it, it will be gone before you leave NY!
While many reviewer are busy attacking the Echo for it's center mounted instruments, automakers such as BMW and Nissan are busy copying Toyota Echo's pioneering design.
After Toyota won the car of the year award in Europe (centrally mounted gauges included) last year with the Yariz, BMW has chose the same center mounted arrangement for their all new luxury Z8.
Now, if there is no advantage to a center mounted design, I wonder why BMW and Nissan are copying the design. <--- Yes, European copying Toyota, pretty strange notion. Also see that BMW's new compact borrowing design cues form the Lexus IS300. What's the world coming to.
So I hope that the reviewers who constantly dogging the Toyota Echo's center display could take a pause and contemplate the possibility that the design might very well be the new standard for the future. Either that, or I can't wait to see the fist fight with the hard core BMW fans after the Z8 review.
Nice to see a little vindication for an opinion that some of us have had all along; that the center-mounted thing is not weird or "dopey" but truly the wave of the future and a smart way to design a car.
the central instument placement!!!!! Wenyue, please stop making ridiculous statements. BMW and Nissan are not copying the Toyota design!!!!!!! It existed long before the Echo.
If it works so be it. Wenyue is right in the sense that in the near future we will see quite a few of the new models coming with this kind of the dashboard. The manufacturers have a huge advantage in placing the instruments that way. They can basically use the same dashboard for the right and left-hand side markets without spending extra many for redesign. Which makes a lot of sense considering that the most manufacturers are selling their best models around the world. around the world.
Ok, Toyota didn't invent the center mounted instruments -- Toyota re-invented it. Kind of like the Chinese first invented the rocket more than a 1000 years ago, but it's the Europeans who invented the first "modern" rocket.
Like your aritcle said -- centrally mounted instruments were tried in the 50's, and it's placed low (I assume as low as the regular ones). So they mounted it low. Toyota is the first to mount it high (a much more logical position). And sorry, but I wasn't around when it was the 50's. So what's this Hudson company, I thought they are a department store. Anyway, ok, I will amend my title and strive to please you.
So OK GUYS. I take my old title back. It's now "Toyota invented the HIGH center mounted instruments".
Anyway, BMW and Nissan has never made a car with center mounted gauge before. Then bam, Toyota is the first to use the HIGH center mounted instruments, and it was a huge hit. Then all the sudden, these 2 companys, who has never done that before, decided to use the same design. And they are not copying the Hudson's from back in the 50's, because they are using the same "high" center mounted arrangement as the Echo. Do you think it's just a coincidence? I don't think so. I think the Toyota's new and successful dash design is being "Echoed" by these 2 company. And also, don't you think the up coming BMW's new compact's rear lights look alot like a copy of the popular Lexus IS300?
I think Toyota does have a valid point with it's easy of focus. It's easier to look at the center and high up, closer to the road, than look down and close, further from the road.
Also, it frees up space before the driver.
Of course it would save money too. But I don't think that's a big factor. How much you could passibly save? Especially true for the BMW Z8. For God's sake, it's the flagship sports car for the BMW. It's BMW folks, the "ultimate driving machine". It cost --- hold on to your seats --- $128,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think it's the few bucks saving that's causing BMW to adopt Echo style center mounted instruments. I think a powerful sports car, fast agile, like the Z8 is where the center design really shines. The seconds saved from taking your eyes off the road with this design can really save your life when you are screaming down some valley in a Z8. Just think, at 200 km per hour (common speed on the autobahn), 1 second difference between your eye's focus traslate into 55.6 meters! That's half a football field.
will be to see whether Edmunds trashes BMW, Nissan (and others?) for following this "dopey" trend. I kind of doubt it. By the way Wenyue, you never said Toyota invented the center gauge, only that others were copying the lead of their recent Cars of the Year, as your Nissan article says directly: "A center located dashboard...follows the new trend set by Toyota and BMW" (and Toyota was clearly ahead of BMW, though perhaps behind Hudson). BTW, the true market value of the BMW Z8 is $170,000; I'm sure they're primarily trying to cut corners with that center gauge.
When I first read an Echo review the center gauge thing concerned me--sounded terrible; then test driving I immediately liked it, though I panicked momentarily when I looked down to see no speedometer later in the drive. That review (not Edmunds) described the gauge like it was a million miles away.
O, you would be surprised how much the maker of the "ultimate driving machine" cares about cost cutting. In the modern design studios it's one of the biggest priorities of the product development cycle. BTW it takes a lot of money and resources just to redesign the dashboard. Consider that all the wiring and some climate control components need to be replaced and tested in their new locations among with the electronics and you'll understand how much effort it requires for such a simple change.
In the case of the ECHO, Toyota cannot simply flip-flop the driver and passenger sides of the vehicle using the supposedly "center" mounted instrument pod. If one looks carefully, one can see that the pod in the ECHO's case is not actually center mounted but rests slightly closer to the American driver's side. The only savings I can perhaps see Toyota incurring is in the manufacture and assembly of the wiring harness that attaches to the pod from beneath the dash.
I concur with rajmoran that even besides the fact that the gauge pod is off center, the lighter shade panels on either side of the center storage bins are different as well, the American driver's side being wider. No mistake about it, Toyota has two totally seperate packages that are installed at the factory for righties or lefties. As stated previously the only thing that would cut costs is having the centrally located wiring harnesses.
Yes, Moses is right that his Echo would be gone before you got here from New York if he left the keys in it. I know because I would be taking it for a four month test drive until my Echo came in.
Toyota didn't invent the HIGH centre mounted instruments. The Toyota Yaris/Echo has been designed at Toyota's European Design Centre in Brussels (Belgium). Toyota wanted to replace the slow-selling Toyota Starlet by a more fashionable car and took a good look at the competition. Both the Renault Twingo and the Lancia Y have high centre mounted instruments for years. The Lancia has analog, the Twingo has digital instruments. The Yaris and Yaris Verso have 3D digital instruments. A bit like a hologram, very futuristic! Anyway, I don't care who invented it. It just looks great. Btw the Yaris has a tacho but not an water temperature gauge.
Why isn't Toyota selling a Yaris Diesel. The 1.0 L and 1.3 L (no 1.5 L in Europe) are very nice engines. But to compete with cars like the VW Polo, Renault Clio, Fiat Punto etc. Toyota also needs a high tech diesel.
I was just wondering if anyone knew what figure is used in determining a new car's initial value. Is it the MSRP (the base price), the total MSRP (the sticker price), the dealer's invoice, or some other figure? Perhaps the sticker price (or dealer's invoice) minus destination and any other non equipment related charges (ie advertising)?
Let us say that for the sake of argument that base is $8,000, the sticker is $12,000, and the dealer's invoice is $10,000 and this is after you subtract destination and advertising charges.
Let us say that a person pays $11,000 for the vehicle. If the base is used as the initial value, then the person is already upside down by $3,000. If the sticker price is used, then the person already has equity of $1,000 while if the dealer's invoice is used, the person is upside down by $1,000. This is before figuring any depreciation.
How much depreciation (as a percentage) does an Echo suffer when you first buy it and drive it off the lot? Will my Echo be worth 95%, 90% of the initial value when I take delivery?
A person might think they got a great deal and think they were not upside down if they paid $11,000 for a car stickered at $12,000, but if the initial value (before depreciation) is based on dealer invoice then they are upside down.
I guess bottom line is that I am trying to figure out how much I would need to put down if I did not want to be upside down in my car.
I was also wondering if a bank would consider a person to have equity in their car if they bought the car for less than what the initial value is. This happens with houses all the time, but a house usually appreciates and does not depreciate.
Thanks. Haven't got much info on the market over on the other side of the atlantic. So I stand corrected. Anyway, yes. The center thing is really catching on, isn't it.
3D digitial gauge? Sounds interesting. Got a picture of that. I think it would cool to look at.
Something one of the Edmunds editors wrote in the "Second Opinion" section struck a chord in me. Miles Cook called the ECHO "a perfectly decent appliance, just like a toaster or a blender." I disagreed with the rest of his comments, but that one line summed up my feelings about the qualities of a good car generally and about the ECHO specifically, though I believe the ECHO is more than "perfectly decent."
I've never been a "car guy." I don't read any of the car magazines or slobber over the latest sports cars or ::shudder:: SUVs. I haven't the slightest passion for four-wheeled motorized conveyance, and I want simply to get in my car turn the key and get where I'm going with the minimum of hassle. I also don't want some huge monstrosity of a vehicle sucking down more than a fair share of fuel and other resources, costing me a bunch of cash and fouling the environment for everyone else. I couldn't afford the Prius and the other econoboxes felt a little cramped in comparison, so I decided on the ECHO. Previous good experience w/ Toyota was a also a factor. I chafe at having to spend a lot of money on a car since cars do so little for me aesthetically and spiritually, so I wanted to make sure that I would not be paying anything extra in terms of time or money beyond the basic maintenance required. Again Toyota wins this battle. Ford? Hyundai? Please.
The funny thing is, after all of that reasoning, the ECHO has really grown on me. I actually enjoy driving this car as I have no other. I think it has something to do with the fact that it is so small, but has everything that I need. The stereo is great, I can haul everything I need, I can park it anywhere, and I can go over a week on a full tank of gas. And when the other cars are falling apart, my ECHO will still be going strong, and I'll still be behind the wheel feeling smart for having made the right choice.
I loved the low base price of the echo. I paid $9600 US ($14,800 CDN) for a 2dr auto, based on what I think my trade-in was really worth. How can any reviewer see a low price on anything as a negative. Some of us like Kneisel and I don't want all that other junk. Anyone who is not disabled and reluctant to crank windows or steer a 2000# vehicle without power assistance is doing their body a disservice. Those same people proably wonder why they have to pay to go to a Gym to stay fit ! Okay, I'll get off my soap box.
BTW the Austin Mini was the first vehicle made with the engine mounted tranversely (sp?) above the transmission and the front, driving wheels. I believe it was first designed in the forties after the second world war by a German aeronautical engineer. It had the same elegant, spherical air vents as the Echo, and guess where the instruments were mounted !
By the way, that entire vehicle was designed by one man. An amazing feat ! Virtually every front wheel drive vehicle produced today is patterned after the architecture of the Mini. Talk about being ahead of it's time !
Great post -- couldn't have said it better. I've never been attached to cars, but here I am regularly reading a listserv about a vehicle and posting to it! The ECHO has really grown on me to the point that I am a devoted and enthusiastic owner . . . plus I've never had more fun driving a car!
Well said. I am a bit of a car enthusiast because I really enjoy seeing anything done exceedingly well. That includes some of man's creations.
I chose the Echo for the same reasons as you. I went into the decision with an open mind, and came very close to choosing a Focus. Something intangible appealed to me about the Echo, however. Perhaps it was my previous good experience with Toyotas. It wasn't just that, however, because I was driving a Ford at the time and that was a flawless experience. I think it might have been the sense that this car was a step ahead of the pack in innovation and simple elegance. The lowest weight, the simple lines/lowest coefficient of drag, the smallest outer dimensions, the larger inner dimensions, the electric heater, the better design of folding seats, the simpler rear suspension, and the better ride, performance and feel in spite of the lower weight all seemed to add up to job done a little better than the competitors'.
As a designer myself, I have always tried to strive for designs which are inherently simple, and therefore elegant. I see great beauty in life in all things which are functionally pure, and simply elegant. In my mind, after having driven my "Echopod" over 12,000 kms, I am delighted to report that it has not only lived up to the hint of simple elegance, but has surpassed it.
As one example, we just had a cold spell here, and coincidentally I had to leave the "Pod" on the street overnight because of some renovations I'm doing. It was outside unplugged for 2 days at -27C (-17F)when it was time to move it back to the garage. It started without hesitation, and within seconds the windows cleared. I was able to drive it around the block and tuck it into the garage before I had a chance to get chilly myself. Why?
Because of that little electric cabin heater in the Echo that most new car reviewers aren't even aware of! Let them say whatever they will. We Echo owners know the "truth about the Echo"!
Thanks. Like Karato I haven't posted on any website prior to owning an Echo, but I'm so darned happy with it that I have to talk about it with someone, and my family and friends have heard enough!
I am always encouraged when I read this board about the decision that I made Jan 14th 2000 when I purchased my black 4-door jelly bean.
When I first saw the Echo I knew it was the car for me. I am a commuter (100mi roundtrip) and 37,345 miles later I like the car as much as the day I bought it.
Of course I love to go to the boards for the Focus and Neon and see the grumbles about things going wrong but you see none of that on this board. It lets me know that I really did make the right choice.
Well said, I feel the same way you do..I am 25 and this is my first car and I feel that I have made the best purchase...Im not attracted to lots of bells and whisles but a good quality car, and ECHO is it!! I enjoy coming home from work and reading the posts us ECHO-ers have left!
Comments
From a previous post I read that Consumer Reports is now recommending the Echo; so much for Edmunds' take on the car. Have to see how their review evolves further next year and beyond....
I did think the Echo pricing was deceptive by the way, but since I didn't look closely at too many other cars I don't know how it compares. I just knew I was glad I didn't spend $4,000 more on an -overpriced VW New Beetle with lots of problems and bad resale value. But I wouldn't have learned that from Edmunds; I learned only from reading the horror stories of owners in that forum.
According to the manual, we're not suppose to go beyound 55 mpg for the first 1000 miles, and don't hard brake in the first 200 miles.....
I broke those rules in the first few days! I was very concern about that so I asked the dealer, they said the Echo doesn't need break-in. So all Echo owners, what do you think? For the first 2 days, the car was very very quite, the third day (after driving up to 65 mph for 2 days, and 1.5 mile trip each), the car sound louder, especially in the first and second gear. I feel like the pickup is not that strong, the 1st gear can only go up to 15 mpg and make loud noise already...The first gear and second gear is still sometime hard to shift into.
Ok, in this senerio, is that because I'm used to the engine's sound or what? By lound I didn't mean very very loud. My friend went for shopping the other day, they listened to it and said it's fine, and very quite.
echoluvrst, the snow lastweek was nothing... After use the car for 5 days... it's kind of dirty, got bird dropping at my office the otherday, damn bird!
Anyway, I sent my car in for them to put on the wheel lock, and they wash it for me! He he he.... now my car is shinning again!
Well, yesterday, when I drove on Shawnee Mission parkway, I saw another Red Echo, and I horned that car, but got no response, Melody, was that you? We drove side by side for a while.
Oh, did I tell you what's my friends' reponse after seeing my Echo?... they like it, especially the gauge, the while backgroup make them easier to read. When I open the trunk after shopping to put our stuff in, they were stunded... it's big!!!! When were're shipping, I bought a very very cude ladybird doll, the red bug just goes very well with my Red Echo, I left that bug on my dashboard today... they'are so cute!
Ok, have to get back to work. Will leave to Chicago tomorrow for a seminar, will be back soon.
PS: Doesn anyone have links to website that sell aftermarket Echo parts? I need to get a water proof mat for my Echo... it's going to snow and things are going to get wet, muddy and... yuck.
Anybody drive in SF in an Echo?
I want to get more Echos on the road. Mine's the best $12000 I ever spent! If you are in CA and want a killer deal, email dianne@earthlink.net and that's all I have to say!
-Di
if it had a rear spoiler, integrated fog lamps and a tachometer.
Otherwise it's the SPI.
The 2 are so similar in functionality & looks, I think they are the SAME CAR!!!
BTW the 2.0L is not a split port one, which means
that the engine utilizes a dual-runner intake manifold.
HEY, sonatafan. It seems your screen name originated from the one of the Huyndai models- the Sonata.
Am I right?
Best 12grand I ever spent. Maybe we ought to re-review the reviewers! LOL!
I finally had a chance to sit in a Focus... guess what, the interior is not well designed... My friend gave me a ride to work and he has a stick version of Focus with cd player... I looked at the audio system, they're fine, but seems like something is missing. And then I realize there is no room to keep cd cases. The Echo has more room for cd cases and other stuff. My Echo is queiter than the Focus... so I think I'm doing fine.... He he he... if I were to leave my key in the car and wait for you to come down and take it, it will be gone before you leave NY!
After Toyota won the car of the year award in Europe (centrally mounted gauges included) last year with the Yariz, BMW has chose the same center mounted arrangement for their all new luxury Z8.
http://www.bmw.com/bmwe/products/automobiles/z8/downloads.shtml
Mean while, after Toyota won the Japan's car of the year award with the Vitz, Nissan has decided to copy Toyota's lead in it's future Primera sedan.
http://www.geocities.com/busybeetoys/scoop/edn27.htm
Now, if there is no advantage to a center mounted design, I wonder why BMW and Nissan are copying the design. <--- Yes, European copying Toyota, pretty strange notion. Also see that BMW's new compact borrowing design cues form the Lexus IS300. What's the world coming to.
So I hope that the reviewers who constantly dogging the Toyota Echo's center display could take a pause and contemplate the possibility that the design might very well be the new standard for the future. Either that, or I can't wait to see the fist fight with the hard core BMW fans after the Z8 review.
Wenyue,
please stop making ridiculous statements.
BMW and Nissan are not copying the Toyota design!!!!!!! It existed long before the Echo.
Take a look at this article:
http://www.tirekick.com/oct99/echfocus.htm
Read the Echo part.
"Still, it makes one think of a few makes from the 1950s, such as Hudson, which used centrally-mounted instruments (though lower down)."
Open your mind. It really works!
Wenyue is right in the sense that in the near future we will see quite a few of the new models coming with this kind of the dashboard.
The manufacturers have a huge advantage in placing the instruments that way. They can basically use the same dashboard for the right and left-hand side markets without spending extra many for redesign. Which makes a lot of sense considering that the most manufacturers are selling their best models around the world.
around the world.
Like your aritcle said -- centrally mounted instruments were tried in the 50's, and it's placed low (I assume as low as the regular ones). So they mounted it low. Toyota is the first to mount it high (a much more logical position). And sorry, but I wasn't around when it was the 50's. So what's this Hudson company, I thought they are a department store.
So OK GUYS. I take my old title back. It's now "Toyota invented the HIGH center mounted instruments".
Anyway, BMW and Nissan has never made a car with center mounted gauge before. Then bam, Toyota is the first to use the HIGH center mounted instruments, and it was a huge hit. Then all the sudden, these 2 companys, who has never done that before, decided to use the same design. And they are not copying the Hudson's from back in the 50's, because they are using the same "high" center mounted arrangement as the Echo. Do you think it's just a coincidence? I don't think so. I think the Toyota's new and successful dash design is being "Echoed" by these 2 company.
I think Toyota does have a valid point with it's easy of focus. It's easier to look at the center and high up, closer to the road, than look down and close, further from the road.
Also, it frees up space before the driver.
Of course it would save money too. But I don't think that's a big factor. How much you could passibly save? Especially true for the BMW Z8. For God's sake, it's the flagship sports car for the BMW. It's BMW folks, the "ultimate driving machine". It cost --- hold on to your seats --- $128,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think it's the few bucks saving that's causing BMW to adopt Echo style center mounted instruments. I think a powerful sports car, fast agile, like the Z8 is where the center design really shines. The seconds saved from taking your eyes off the road with this design can really save your life when you are screaming down some valley in a Z8. Just think, at 200 km per hour (common speed on the autobahn), 1 second difference between your eye's focus traslate into 55.6 meters! That's half a football field.
When I first read an Echo review the center gauge thing concerned me--sounded terrible; then test driving I immediately liked it, though I panicked momentarily when I looked down to see no speedometer later in the drive. That review (not Edmunds) described the gauge like it was a million miles away.
BTW it takes a lot of money and resources just to redesign the dashboard. Consider that all the wiring and some climate control components need to be replaced and tested in their new locations among with the electronics and you'll understand how much effort it requires for such a simple change.
The Toyota Yaris/Echo has been designed at Toyota's European Design Centre in Brussels (Belgium). Toyota wanted to replace the slow-selling Toyota Starlet by a more fashionable car and took a good look at the competition. Both the Renault Twingo and the Lancia Y have high centre mounted instruments for years. The Lancia has analog, the Twingo has digital instruments. The Yaris and Yaris Verso have 3D digital instruments. A bit like a hologram, very futuristic!
Anyway, I don't care who invented it. It just looks great. Btw the Yaris has a tacho but not an water temperature gauge.
Let us say that for the sake of argument that base is $8,000, the sticker is $12,000, and the dealer's invoice is $10,000 and this is after you subtract destination and advertising charges.
Let us say that a person pays $11,000 for the vehicle. If the base is used as the initial value, then the person is already upside down by $3,000. If the sticker price is used, then the person already has equity of $1,000 while if the dealer's invoice is used, the person is upside down by $1,000. This is before figuring any depreciation.
How much depreciation (as a percentage) does an Echo suffer when you first buy it and drive it off the lot? Will my Echo be worth 95%, 90% of the initial value when I take delivery?
A person might think they got a great deal and think they were not upside down if they paid $11,000 for a car stickered at $12,000, but if the initial value (before depreciation) is based on dealer invoice then they are upside down.
I guess bottom line is that I am trying to figure out how much I would need to put down if I did not want to be upside down in my car.
I was also wondering if a bank would consider a person to have equity in their car if they bought the car for less than what the initial value is. This happens with houses all the time, but a house usually appreciates and does not depreciate.
Have a nice day. I have to go pay a bill.
3D digitial gauge? Sounds interesting. Got a picture of that. I think it would cool to look at.
http://www.saarnet.de/r_autos/autotests/yaris.htm
I've never been a "car guy." I don't read any of the car magazines or slobber over the latest sports cars or ::shudder:: SUVs. I haven't the slightest passion for four-wheeled motorized conveyance, and I want simply to get in my car turn the key and get where I'm going with the minimum of hassle. I also don't want some huge monstrosity of a vehicle sucking down more than a fair share of fuel and other resources, costing me a bunch of cash and fouling the environment for everyone else. I couldn't afford the Prius and the other econoboxes felt a little cramped in comparison, so I decided on the ECHO. Previous good experience w/ Toyota was a also a factor. I chafe at having to spend a lot of money on a car since cars do so little for me aesthetically and spiritually, so I wanted to make sure that I would not be paying anything extra in terms of time or money beyond the basic maintenance required. Again Toyota wins this battle. Ford? Hyundai? Please.
The funny thing is, after all of that reasoning, the ECHO has really grown on me. I actually enjoy driving this car as I have no other. I think it has something to do with the fact that it is so small, but has everything that I need. The stereo is great, I can haul everything I need, I can park it anywhere, and I can go over a week on a full tank of gas. And when the other cars are falling apart, my ECHO will still be going strong, and I'll still be behind the wheel feeling smart for having made the right choice.
More toast? Yes, please.
BTW the Austin Mini was the first vehicle made with the engine mounted tranversely (sp?) above the transmission and the front, driving wheels. I believe it was first designed in the forties after the second world war by a German aeronautical engineer. It had the same elegant, spherical air vents as the Echo, and guess where the instruments were mounted !
By the way, that entire vehicle was designed by one man. An amazing feat ! Virtually every front wheel drive vehicle produced today is patterned after the architecture of the Mini. Talk about being ahead of it's time !
I chose the Echo for the same reasons as you. I went into the decision with an open mind, and came very close to choosing a Focus. Something intangible appealed to me about the Echo, however. Perhaps it was my previous good experience with Toyotas. It wasn't just that, however, because I was driving a Ford at the time and that was a flawless experience. I think it might have been the sense that this car was a step ahead of the pack in innovation and simple elegance. The lowest weight, the simple lines/lowest coefficient of drag, the smallest outer dimensions, the larger inner dimensions, the electric heater, the better design of folding seats, the simpler rear suspension, and the better ride, performance and feel in spite of the lower weight all seemed to add up to job done a little better than the competitors'.
As a designer myself, I have always tried to strive for designs which are inherently simple, and therefore elegant. I see great beauty in life in all things which are functionally pure, and simply elegant. In my mind, after having driven my "Echopod" over 12,000 kms, I am delighted to report that it has not only lived up to the hint of simple elegance, but has surpassed it.
As one example, we just had a cold spell here, and coincidentally I had to leave the "Pod" on the street overnight because of some renovations I'm doing. It was outside unplugged for 2 days at -27C (-17F)when it was time to move it back to the garage. It started without hesitation, and within seconds the windows cleared. I was able to drive it around the block and tuck it into the garage before I had a chance to get chilly myself. Why?
Because of that little electric cabin heater in the Echo that most new car reviewers aren't even aware of! Let them say whatever they will. We Echo owners know the "truth about the Echo"!
When I first saw the Echo I knew it was the car for me. I am a commuter (100mi roundtrip) and 37,345 miles later I like the car as much as the day I bought it.
Of course I love to go to the boards for the Focus and Neon and see the grumbles about things going wrong but you see none of that on this board. It lets me know that I really did make the right choice.