Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

claywaterfill

I am not arguing with your opinion here--but you asked what could compare to price and content of a Civic LX. I think Sentra GXE is pretty close. I am considering Civic vs Sentra mself. I've been quoted a manual LX for about $14,300. I've been quoted an automatic GXE (with CD and keyless, add ons to the Civic) for about $13,000. A 3 year old Civic is worth about 51% of new while a 3 year old Sentra is worth about 46%--but you saved $2600 to begin with (the $1300 between these 2 prices, plus $800 for automatic, $150 for keyless and $350 for CD). I know the Civic should be more reliable and it does post higher crash test scores, though. All in all, I'd say Sentra offers about the closest balance to Civic--price to content.

sobers

Just one humble question: DID YOU TEST DRIVE THE CAR BEFORE BUYING? If yes then you knew what you were getting into! Whenever model is changed make sure you do EXTENSIVE road tests or else settle with the older generation (save some depreciations bucks!) :-)

This bouncy rear end & Stiff front & whatever is not developed after a few thousand miles! It is from the start....right? (assunming these 'probelms' exist, MHO these 'problems' are highly overrated)

If you want to get a Corolla(a floaty boat) because Civic rear end bounces a bit on 'some' sort of undulations then may God help you!! Corolla is a boat for God's sake!! Focus is a relibility & resale nightmare. Whos going to buy an yearl old Focus for thousand$ savings when you can save thousands on 0% financing/rebates?

Also a word of cuation over Corolla purchase. These cars sold in GREAT nukmbers to fleet & are flooded into used car market with in a year. Watchout for the value of the car going down th e sink.

Anyways: If somebody is really frusteted with their 2001+ Civic, let me know if you are in the midwest, I will get somebody looking for it!! Maybe $1000 more than the the used TMV for 2001s!! :-))

seminole_kev

not a diehard Honda fan are ya?

dtownfb

Me thinks sobers needs a vacation.

This argument over Civic vs. Elantra vs. Sentra is all very healthy as long as everyone remembers we are all entitled to our opinions. and it is not to be taken personally just because somebody disagrees with you.

Personally I like the new Civic. Didn't buy one because we needed somethign a littel bigger. My two cents is the only other small car that is better or close to the new Civic is the Focus. The Sentra, Protege, Elantra are all too small in the rear seat for me. Plus the front leg room was tight. The Corrolla never entered the picture. Corolla has outstanding reliability but that's it. The bigger engine does not translate into quicker acceleration, better handling, etc. Oh well just my opinion.

dtownfb

I didn't realize that Edmunds quotes you DMV fees. Plus $1700 no matter who charges that is obsessive. The TMV is meant onlyas a guide. It factors in what the dealer paid plus a fair profit given the availibility and demand of the vehicle. You should be able to get a Civic for about $250-$400 over invoice, possibly less. The DMV charges are based on the state you live in and dealership. No Edmunds does not get a cut of the profits. This site is a service to the consumers not the dealers. Edmunds makes money from the advertising you see. And even if Edmunds was wrong in their quote..who cares? You were quoted a cheaper price..go with that.

seminole_kev

I think the Protege is closer in spirit to the older civic's than the new civic is. The Protege is a fun drive, like the old Civics were and a bit small, just like the older civics. Just has the wrong brand name on it for some ;-)

dtownfb

Good observation. You may be right.

I just checked the Edmunds TMV for Civic EX Auto in the Lehigh Valley (PA) and got a price of $17073. That includes the destination charge.

lngtonge18

Good heaven's, you would want to trust a Detroit news article about an import? They are obviously going to be more biased toward the American cars built in the area. I would be more willing to trust Kiplinger's, who rated the Lancer "The Best New Car" in the low price category and stated its "wide track gives the peppy car a ride like a car costing thousands more" and "an appealing package of handling and performance". The reason why most enthusiasts have been "disappointed" by this car is because it didn't come over with the turbocharged engine. Otherwise, the Lancer is great as a daily commuter car.

I think those who have complaints about the Civic's ride were so brainwashed by thoughts of Honda's trouble-free ownership experience that once the new car feeling wore off, they began noticing little annoyances and realized it didn't quite live up to their super high expectations.

gasguzz

Some folks get so hung up over published TMV and Invoice. Personally, if I went for the invoice/tmv on our cars, they would have been more than I actually paid.
They are merely a guide. A car can only be sold based on what the dealer will give and what the buyer will accept (How much more vague is that?). There is no science that can pinpoint the exact number you will close with, it all depends on numerous factors on the negotiation table at the time.
Fair price? What a concept.

cwliang

Pogo11, I got my Civic EX 4-dr for about $16,300 + TTL in the DC/Baltimore area, which I think according to Edmunds is a couple hundred under invoice. I was very happy with my dealership experience, and in general with the car except for a few rattles, and one other thing -- the steering column is a little crooked. I mean, when the car is moving straight ahead, the wheel is turned slightly clockwise. I know about how roads are curved but the problem is consistent, so tomorrow I'm taking it into the dealer to take a look. But I may just be very sensitive to my car, because others who have seen it say they wouldn't have noticed either the rattles or the wheel deviation if I hadn't mentioned it...

I didn't really consider the Lancer because of past negative experiences with Mitsubishis and I really favored the Civic over others because of past positive experiences with Hondas. So I guess I am pretty biased.

seminole_kev

Do you think it just needs an alignment? If the wheels are pointed directly straight ahead, is the steering wheel dead-on-center, or is it turned to the left or right?

cwliang

When the wheels are pointing straight ahead, the steering wheel is turned slightly to the right. But I'm assuming it's not an alignment problem because there are no other problems; it's as if the steering wheel is just screwed on at an angle, or something. Also, the car is only a couple of weeks old! Anyway, both a toe adjustment and an alignment should be covered under warranty, so hopefully it'll be taken care of.

As for the rattles in the A-pillar cover, someone from www.2k1civic.com recommended sticking foam between the plastic and the windshield. It's worked for me, but I've had to use a lot of foam -- those rattles are persistent!

bostont

Now this is very interesting, because I had a brand new 1982 Accord that was built in Japan and it had the same problem. Someone told me that because we drive on the other side of the road compared to Japan they have to do it that way so they don't have to switch so much under the hood. But these cars aren't built in Japan anymore, are they?

pogo11

Dtownfb, Edmunds didn't figure in the extra fees, I added the local 8% tax ($1380) and Honda dmv/documentation fees myself for the 1700 total..... I did get pretty much the same TMV quote plus a few hundred for the side air bags, 17300. But you're right, go with the cheaper $16200 quote, for heaven's sake.

Good points Sobers and Gasguzz, TMV is a national average, no real reason for me to mistrust or beat up on Edmunds... Use is as a frame of reference, and research from all angles, and go with the better bids.

Anyway, I never knew too much about Honda cars (though I collect their bikes), and after researching prices for a friend, and reading the various Honda boards, the Civic started to appeal to me........ Wouldn't mind keeping my eye out for a used one at a great price.... really like the styling of some of the Civics I see around town. I'll have to try them out for legroom first (6'2")

Pat and others, thanks for the responses.....
Chris

jjpcat

The brake problem you mentioned with your Civic doesn't show up in my 2k1 Civic. However, that problem was VERY VERY noticable in my 1996 Accord. I got it checked by the dealer but they said there's nothing wrong with it. That car finished under a minivan because of that problem and it had only 45k miles at the time of the accident.

My 1989 Accord also had weak brake, but no as bad as 1996 Accord.

sobers

But I would LOVE to go on a vacation!! :-)

I do not have any problem if somebody doesn't like new Civic or the ride/handling it offeres. My humble question is what options they have? I myself find Civic EX a bit of a less-value than the Lx. Again this is JUST MY opinion. I helped a friend getting a new 2002 Accord SE in the last week. The civic EX with $300 over invoice was only $25,00 cheaper than the Accord SE which is a MUCH better Car than Civic anyway (& with more equipement than Civic EX except ABS)

He really liked the Civic but the Accord SE deal was a no brainer (19207+300+fees). I heard they are selling quite a few of them!!

The Civic LX makes a bit more sense to me. (you can get keyless installed for $150)

claywaterfill

Have you had the car aligned? I have had my stearing wheel end up "crooked" like that after an alignment.

sobers

I guess Edmunds also titled Lancer as "Mediocrity thy name is Lancer "

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/47271/article.html

But they did like the handling:

Unilaterally praised was the suspension, which properly sorted out the rutted and grooved roadways of California. The MacPherson-strut front and multilink rear setup kept the 2,734-pound car planted through corners and communicated the feel of the road. "You can feel the years of rallying coming through with each turn of the steering wheel," declared our road test coordinator.

claywaterfill

I used to feel that there was not enough difference between the LX and EX to support the extra $1500 to $2000. But, if you look, you'll see the EX is a much better car--mechanically and cosmetically. The EX gives you the VTEC engine, ABS, 15" wheels, moonroof, keyless (standard), body colored mirrors, CD player (standard), rear cupholders, and variable intermittent windshield wipers. The upgraded engine, ABS (unavailable on LX), and moonroof make it worth the price difference alone, IMO.

cwliang

I took the car to the dealer today and they (predictably) recommended that I wait and see if it gets worse. According to them, the wheels appear to be straight when the steering wheel is straight on, so there is nothing to fix, and even if they did a realignment, it might have the same error to one side or another.

That doesn't sound right to me. I would think if a dealer really wanted to do an alignment correctly, they would test drive the car before and after to check the steering wheel, and make sure that the wheel was straight. After all, this isn't some alignment place, this is the dealer, who is supposed to know all about Hondas.

Anyway, since that wasn't my selling dealer, I'm going to take the car to the selling dealer and ask them to fix the steering wheel, whether it requires a toe adjustment or a full alignment. Anyone have any experience with utilizing the 12 mo./12,000 mi. alignment warranty? I have a feeling it'll be tough convincing them to align the wheels due to a 1-2 degree off-center wheel...

About the brake problem... After further experimentation, I am ready to conclude that the braking issue is due to the transmission upshifting from 4th to 3rd with light braking, because of the grade-logic whatever. It feels similar to when I upshift from D to D3 at highway speeds. Anyway, I've learned to avoid the upshift by waiting a little longer to brake and then using more pressure on the pedal, rather than using light pressure on the pedal for longer.

gasguzz

Scanned back a little for your braking and grade-logic problem, and didn't find it.
What is your situation with the braking/grade-logic? Have you ever owned a stick?

cwliang

gasguzz: In my '02 EX auto, when you're driving at higher speeds (ie 40+ mph), and then you brake lightly, you sometimes will get a jerk and the car suddenly slows down at a higher rate of deceleration than before (this all with a constant amount of pressure held on the brake).

My first guess was the transmission is upshifting -- this only happens when (I think) the gear is in 4th, and I attributed the jerk to a shift to 3rd. This is the first time I've owned an auto "smart" enough to upshift while decelerating, but I had heard of and experienced this before with a VW Passat I had driven. I wasn't sure if this was the case, though, because in a manual you'd expect the engine RPM to go up due to the upshift, and this was not happening significantly in the Civic.

I tried it myself, though, while slowing down from highway speeds, by coming off the accelerator and switching into D3, and I got a similar jerk with a small amount of RPM jump. So I think that the lack of jump I see when the transmission is doing the shifting is because it waits until the engine RPM comes down to a certain point, that an upshift won't be terribly noticeable, whereas I didn't wait at all. I mean, throw in the torque converter and I really have no idea what the RPMs *should* be in an upshift, so I'm not too worried about the lack of a noticable RPM jump... Am I making sense here?

futurecivic

Hi there everyone ! I am new to this forum. Cannot tell you how useful this site was to me! Gave me the much needed confidence..since this will be my first car!! I read in one of the postings that you can get the Keyless entry installed for $150. Are you talking only of the installations charges or is it the whole package? B'cause most of the dealers I am talking to tell me it will be an additional $250 if i needed the keyless entry option.

sobers

I have helped 5 guys in buying the keyless entry & you shoudl negotiate it with the price of the car. Basicaly you would wangt to pay Dealer Invoice on the parts (around $110) plus the installation : 50/60 i.e Keyless should be around $160-165.

You can ask the salesman to refer to the invoice price list of the parts. (Lists dealer invoice, Labor, Dealr Retail) These prices changes prob'ly every month.

This is the brake up for what we got the deals fixed: Invoice + 200 profit + 180 (mats & Gaurds) + 155Keyless + 48 Docs

gasguzz

First, when you go from 4th to 3rd you're downshifting (upshifting 3rd to 4th). The grade-logic engages when going downhill and you step on the brake (using RPMs, speed and load algorithms). The fuzzy-logic employed here is that when you're going downhill and you brake, then you don't want to accelerate. It thereby downshifts as you would in a stick, giving you more control.
As for D4 to D3, you're going to get a "jump" no matter what - you're changing shift modes.
What I don't get is what is the prob with the "jump", a 550hp Ferrari would certainly do that.

futurecivic

The dealer is offering me the car, for 400 below the invoice! he says it would be 14583 + sales tax + 122 doc charge + 110 registration charge. So I guess what they do is they decrease the base price and add it all up in the other charges! ) Anyway thanks for giving me an idea about how much this thing costs..so i can negotiate better.

cwliang

gasguzz: I often get confused with the up/downshifting words, but yes, I mean 4th-3rd. On the D4-D3, I don't get any jumping if I'm not in 4th... ie, if I'm driving around slowly and I switch into D3, no jump (no gear change), so I'm not sure what you mean by changing shift modes -- I thought D3 just locked out the 4th gear. And it's not a problem, I don't think, I just wasn't sure what was going on at first because none of my previous automatics ever downshifted while I was braking...

jjpcat

I am not sure how useful this technology is. Let's say you are driving at 60mph and it's running at D4. For both Civic and Accord, the RPM is likely at around 2500. Now you hit the brake. Because of this grade logic thing, the car downshift to D3 and the RPM would jump to 3000. Both engines will generate larger horsepower and torque at 3000rpm than they do at 2500rpm. So, the brake power is decreased.

Supposedly, this technology kicks in only when the car is going down-hill. But in my 96 Accord, it kick in totally randomly. When it kick in, the car actually accelerated during the first moment (e.g., 0.2-0.5 second) I hit the brake.

Is there any other car maker deploying this technology?

cwliang

jjpcat -- I remember driving a 1999 Volkswagon Passat with a 4-speed automatic transmission that did the same thing. I don't know how new the technology is, but the other cars I've driven regularly have been pre-1992, and a '98 Chrysler minivan, and those never had anything like it...

lngtonge18

My Lancer uses the same grade logic. Yes, at higher rpms, the car will make more power, but when decelerating, the engine makes more compression at higher rpms and thus the effect of compression braking is more noticeable and reduces your speed faster. With a manual tranny, you can often slow your car down considerably by just down shifting. The new grade logic is supposed to mimic this and help reduce wear on brakes. It is not nearly as effective, but I do feel it working to keep my speed in check whereas with other autos, the car would just keep gaining speed.

claywaterfill

Beware of these really low price quotes! I had one dealer quote $100 below invoice and another quote $300 above invoice. I told the "high" dealer about his being high and he gave me his "Out the Door" price and asked me to compare those. He said some dealers low ball the price to get you to buy, but in the paperwork, they add bogus charges to get the price right back up there. Anyway, the OTD of the "low" dealer was $200 higher than the OTD of the "high" dealer. The low ball price dealer was obviously coming up with $600 of bogus fees to make their money back. I hope this is not the case--but chek them out.

jvkalra

Dealers have learned to play games with the invoice price, so it's meaningless. Better to get selling price before sales tax and registration fees. I would even ask the dealer if there will be any "surprise" fees. That usually forces them to give you the straight scoop on their selling price.

Incidentally, I've seen the Civic LX auto advertised by several dealers in SF Bay Area for 13988. Maybe that was an end of the month special, but I've seen that price more often than not. I think with the intro of the new Corolla, there's going to be good deals all around. Just look at the Saturday classified in your local newspaper.

gasguzz

Ingtonge make a good point. My Civ is actualy my first AT (so the wife can drive it too when I take the van to Lowes/Homedepot).
My main dislike with autos is that the power is not where I want at times (it's in the "wrong" gear). You'll notice BMW/MB/Lexus/Porsche have sportshift-autos (in their own iterations). Why - to mimic the responsivenes of a stick in an auto.
I've always engine-braked in my previous MTs, just gives you more control. Now, it's somewhat employed on the entry-line Civ, a better auto tranny I say.

claywaterfill

That's the beauty of the OTD price--you find out if there are any "surprises" right then and there because they total all the fees for you then.

dtownfb

Actually, the grade logic is designed for the engine to handle varying inclines without excessive shifting. Waht is does is as you approach a hill and you acclerate, it downshifts from 4th to 3rd gear and holds it in 3rd gear to give you more power to climb the hill. It stops the engine from shifting back and forward between 3rd and 4th gear. In that respect it works very, very well. had it on my 94 Accord. Loved it. It allows the little 4 cylinder (135 hp) to fly up the hills. Drove a 1999 Altima rental (auto). On inclines that baby was shifting back and forth like crazy which is typical of 4 cylinder engines.

Not sure how it works on declines.

Hope this helps.

futurecivic

You are right. I have been now asking the dealers for the 'take home' price. When I compare all of them i can see that the ones which are giving it below invoice are increasing the documentation charges, registration charges etc. The last one I contacted told me that the take home price would be 15689/- and if I needed the keyless entry it would be 295/- extra ! so... i have beginning to rethink about this keyless entry! Cant I get keyless entry from somewhere other than honda ? I wonder how much that would be!

claywaterfill

Just about any good, reputable stereo type shop could install keyless entry for you. Of course, if they screw something up, your warranty is voided. Also, keep in mind, when you buy an accessory at the time of purchase, the accesory is covered by the bumper to bumper warranty. Glad you checked the "take home" first! BTW, is this a sedan or coupe? I wouldn't worry so much in a coupe anyway. If you can't live without it, $295 factored over the life of the loan adds almost nothing per month. And it won't void the warranty if it fouls up.

readytobuy8

Thinking on buying a 02 lx, 5 spd, 4 door civic. two questions 1. What should I pay for it? 2. Should I get the ext warranty?
Thanks
MJ
Dallas,tx

cwliang

I think grade-logic is definitely a great idea for getting up those hills, but I do find it a bit annoying to not be able to predict when the downshift is going to happen... Well, that's not entirely true, I generally have an idea of what the engine and vehicle speed have to be when the downshift occurs, but I can't yet predict it with as much accuracy as I can predict, say, an upshift when accelerating, which I modulate based on how hard the accelerator is pressed.

Got my steering aligned today -- found another dealer who did it, no questions asked... Finally, the wheel is straight on the highway!

carguy62

Since you asked. Pay invoice and don't get an extended warranty. All my opinion of course.

gasguzz

Have you heard of Handaaccessories.com (known around these parts). It's $120 for keyless. Check out the installation pdf, if you're up to it (mech/elec inclined) install it yourself.
Don't really need the "waranty" if you do it right (per the factory instructions). It's hard to get it wrong with the factory setup. Besides, if you mess up take it to the dealer and they'll see its Honda - so it's covered.
Tip: Since the keyless is POE installed anyway, if you do it yourself you won't break any clips. Will the technician say he broke a clip(?), and that equals rattles.
Good luck.

futurecivic

hey i never thought about the warranty!!! u are right ofcourse. I am buying the Sedan and like the idea of opening the door and jumping in when i want to make a quick exit ! ) without having to fumble with the keys

cwliang

Speaking of jumping in and out of the car, does anyone else find the driver's door feature curious? I mean, not being able to lock the door when the door is open without holding the handle. I know it's supposed to prevent you from locking your keys in the car, but I'm so used to hitting the power dock lock button or pushing down on the driver's door lock from previous cars...

twistinmelon

Trust me...it will become second nature in no time.

twist

jimcarr

I want to install a Gentex auto-dimming mirror with compass and temp. in my 2k2 Civic. Will a dealer handle this product and will he install?What about the warranty?

If you have any better idea, please advise.

Thanks

joncab

I have heard that the CIVIC sedan is to come out with a Hybrid model this spring/summer. This is seperate from the Honda Insight with the same HYBRID technology. Anyone with information....please let me know. Dealers seem to be in the dark on this model? Or they are not saying much to me. Thanks...

dtownfb

Motor Trend mentioned this in their current issue. www.motortrend.com

carguy62

Should arrive in late spring. Price estimates at around $20K (US) or about a $4-5K premium over the gas model.

I did some quick figuring and I think it would take over 300 fill ups before you come out ahead (don't quote me, I did it a few weeks ago and can't remember exactly). But my guess is people aren't buying these types of vehicles to save money, but rather to be "green".

I hope the Hybrid Civic does well so Honda will continue with this technology and introduce it in other models.

readytobuy8

When are the new Corrals going to be available?

sobers

Keyless should cost you no more than 175 installed from dealer. As it is parts + Labor which gives service department 1 hr of Labor! So it is good for the dealer also.

New Corolla: March of this year. Don't wait for it. Its driving dynamics are just like the current one & it is just a bit bigger (a bit more taller though) Toyota knows they can't attract younger buyers with thier Corolla platform & thats the reaosn why they have introduced the Matrix. The reviews I read about new Corolla are disappointing to say the least & also a lot of Corollas make their way to FLEET/RENTAL lots driving the resale down.

Hyrbid Civic with 1.3 Liter engine will have combined 97 HP & 0-60 in 10.5 Seconds with the manual & supposed to give 50+ mpg in combined EPA!! Insight was a sort of a PR vehicle for the Green ones but this is going to be a smash hit with 'normal' driving like other Civics but with bit more excluisivity & mpg.

It would not save much bucks immediately for YOU but could save a TON of $$$$ for American Govt who gives exponential subsidy(tax money) to make it affordable to the consumers. It costs around $4 every gallon for American Govt to buy it Now read this statement atleast 10 times if you are an 'average' american! :-)) Specially atleast 50 times of you are from Texas!!! :-)) (& prob'ly infinite times if you like big SUVs)

BTW, I guess The O'reilley Factor is the only prime time popular show which takes anti-SUV stand !