TSchramm : Of course more Elements will be sold. Honda can do no wrong and American based companies can do no right (even though the Aztek is no uglier and well built also). That's the way it goes with much of the press these days.
b4z : I bought my Intrigue based on what I was reading back in early 2000. The problems with the initial Intrigues seem to have been ironed out by then so when our GP was totalled we decided to make the change to Oldsmobile in spite of the fact my friends considered it an old peoples brand. No regrets, I love the car and I expect another 150K kms + of driving it.
Hello all...Just thought I'd weigh in on the current topics...
TS is right about the Element--it doesn't have to be a moneymaker for Honda. They are concerned that their demographics are getting too old and too female (think Civic...I have no respect for men who drive Civics, do you?)...Element is a way to bring people in the showroom...and then maybe sell them something else...
As for the discussion about the Accord/Camry, I'm sure that the Accord is a very solid, well-executed car. Styling is subjective, I'm not crazy for the new styling and as I've said before I HATE the bloated Camry. However, in terms of the Intrigue/Impala discussions in relation to these cars, I think that the key factor is price. What kind of Accord could I get for the $18.5k I just paid for my Intrigue? Would it have a good V6, auto climate control, traction control, PCS, spoiler, alloy wheels, a Bose 8 speaker sound system, and so on...? Not a chance. I'd get me a nice 4 cyl with a few options. BORING. The same is true even for the current Impala. Even an LS with the Appearance Package is cheaper than a comparably equipped Accord and its much more substantial car (although not anywhere near the Intrigue in terms of performance). Plus, of course, there are some of us out there that want to drive something that you don't see in every lane all day long. I couldn't get my girlfriend to even look at a Focus, because, as she said "I'm sick of seeing them." She bought an Alero....
Bnrmom is wrong on the Intrigue. There was never a problem with styling. Everything to this day thinks it looks sleek, aggressive, fast, expensive...When it came out, the impression was that it was NOT another GM sedan, THAT was the problem. Nobody knew what the hell it was and where to buy it! The last thing people thought when they looked at that '98 Intrigue was "Oldsmobile" and there was no badging there to tell them!
By the way, just as an aside...isn't it interesting that nobody has every mentioned the Ford Taurus on this board? (at least not in a long, long time...) How irrelevant is that car these days! Ford REALLY screwed up by trying to replace 3 cars with two (Escort, Contour, Taurus with Focus, Taurus). They should have slotted something in between them. Apparently, that's what they are doing with the upcoming '04/'05's.
I've been doing some research on automakers web sites lately because there is a possibility that I might want to buy a new vehicle. I have some GM Card money so I have been checking their brands first. Unfortunately my work situation (which is what will determine whether or not I get a new vehicle) has not yet been resolved one way or the other so I have missed out on GM's holiday promotion here in Canada which offered an additional $1000 minimum off whatever you bought.
The supply of new 2002 Intrigues is drying up. There are none to be found locally and a dealer in a nearby province who had 8 of them a couple of months ago now is down to one. They are a heckuva deal if you want one.
Seems to me the best value in a GM car these days is the Grand Prix. One with the 3800 (the GT) stickers for less than an Impala LS. I am not crazy about either one but I would go with the GP if pressed. The Saturn L300 wagon interested me as well but the price is way up there and I wouldn't want a cheaper 4-cylinder model. I like the Alero but it's a bit small for what I want and I don't care for the Grand Am either. Malibu screams rental car so it's out too.
I wish the new Colorado pickup was available. Maybe by the time I'm ready it will be. I don't like the S-10/Sonoma and a fullsize pickup would be nice but is really too big and expensive for me. The Envoy also appeals to me but is out of my price range. I've already ruled out the Rendezvous and Aztek on looks.
I haven't been a big SUV fan but the Mazda Tribute looks good to me as does the Toyota Highlander and Mitsu Outlander. Pricing on them is a bit iffy. I really like the look of the Nissan Murano but it is out of my price range. Don't know about pricing on the Mazda 6 but I like what I've seen of it. The Accord sedan and Camry are both out on looks but the Accord coupe might be a contender; again though, it's a bit on the pricey side. I thought the Jetta wagon might be the one but I was disappointed with pricing on it too; they can get very expensive. If Chrysler offers some incentives on the Dakota I might want to look at one of them; don't know much about them though.
It's a really tough call. I would like to go with GM to use up my GM card money but it isn't easy. Right now I couldn't predict what I would end up with. I only wish there was a new Intrigue to choose from.
Anyone else get a brochure in the mail yesterday with an offer from GM to bump up their GM points to $2003 for a 2003 model? Now if we could use this for a leftover 2002 model I might look to trade in my 2000 Intrigue.
I have a 97 Dakota Sport Extended cab as my daily driver. It is a 5.2 V-8, auto, 2 wheel drive. I really like the truck (I live on an acreage, so I actually need one); it drives better than any other truck I have ever driven, almost car-like. But compared to a car, it has better ground clearance, good visibility, and offers great utility. Keep in mind, the Dakota is a mid-size, not full-size, so the rear area in the extended cab is not meant for people. But it also is as easy to park and manuver as a typical car (unlike full-sized trucks). It allows me to set the drivers seat comfortably (I'm 6-3) and provides usable storage space for groceries, etc. It also has many shortcomings, not the least of which is mileage. I average about 16 mpg. The brakes are only adequate. Headlights, ditto. Supposedly, the 2004 Dakota extended cab will have rear access doors (ala S-10) and improved headlights. They have already upgraded to 4-wheel disk brakes. I priced out a 2003 optioned as close as possible to my current truck and after rebates, etc., the price was under $19,000. And that's for a V-8, auto, power windows, locks, mirrors, keyless entry, CD player, etc. If you can stomach the lousy gas mileage, they are a pretty good deal for a utility-type vehicle. Of course, the difference between a 12,000 mile-per-year, 16-mpg vehicle and a 20-mpg vehicle is only about $200 a year in gas. Not much sense in spending an extra $2,000 to get a vehicle that saves $200 a year in gas. Especially if you give up utility (trailer towing, etc.) in the bargain.
ab348 : New Grand Prix will be out in the spring. I would wait, though the deals on the 03's will be good. We had a 98 GP SE and it was perfect (no problems at all) until we totalled it a year and a half later. Interior is too plasticy, but otherwise its a good car. New 04 model has a much better interior.
mfletouva : I agree with you on the Camry, one of the ugliest cars on the road now. Old Camry was really dull, the new is hideous.
The kid who did the work said the tires should be inflated to 44 PSI. That sounded like a lot, but he seemed positive and said that's what was stamped on the tire.
Drove out and was appalled at the harsh ride. Pulled over and checked the factory sticker in the trunk and it said to use 31 PSI all around.
Went back and ran down the store manager and told him what happened. He agreed that the pressure should be well above 31 PSI, although the 44 PSI is stamped on the tire as the max pressure for the tires.
His comment was that 31 PSI is too low for the 16" Eagles and we agreed on using 38 PSI all around.
Anybody have any thoughts or observations about this exchange?
Having followed Fords carelessness with regard to inflating their Firestones, am not too surprised if a major mfr is giving out bad data. However, the difference between 31 and 40+ PSI is significant.
Seems that an undesireable edge wear pattern would emerge if the 31 PSI was as low as the tire folks suggested. Conversely, at 38+ will I see abnormal center wear?
Assuming that the original tires had the same measure, you should only use what the sticker on the door recommends. Anything above that will wear the very central part of the tread only.
As for the maximum pressure on the tire sidewall, it's just that: the maximum pressure that the tire can withstand before exploding. By inflating the tires to the maximum pressure, any pot hole could cause the tire to blow up!
Finally, it's important to remember that the tires should be inflated when cold (after up to 1ml. at speeds below 25MPH or so).
I've got 4 hours to spend at the Auto Show after a business meeting tomorrow. Can't wait.
As for the Japanese not being able to do anything wrong, well, the Intrigue was designed specifically as GM's japanese sedan import fighter. But, who lost the fight? Still a nice car, though.
I'd find another shop. Those guys don't know what they're talking about. The label on the door shows you the pressure the vehicle designer recommends for the best compbination of ride, handling, and tire wear. You could go a couple psi lower for better ride, a couple psi higher for a little better mileage (probably not noticeable) or if you are loading it up with people and luggage.
Pressure will change about 1 psi per 10 deg F temp variation which is why you should check it every month, especially if the temp changes significantly with the seasons as it does for most of us.
It's amazing the amount of misinformation gets passed out by people who ought to know better.
i wouldn't go any higher than 35lbs unless you were autocrossing. The manufacture's sticker usually includes a lower pressure for ride quality. Gm did this with my IROC and Ford did it with the Explorer and look what happened there.
I keep the tire pressure at or slightly above the tire pressure label located inside the trunk lid. I.e. 31-33 lbs. I trust GM in selecting a decent compromise for ride, handling,wear and safety. Anything higher, and the ride is awful.
2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech
The pressure recommended by the manufacturer is not only a compromise between ride and handling, but also a safety issue.
The suspension is designed to work with a certain tire compliance. A higher pressure will transfer some of the work expected to be done by the tire to the suspension, which will lead to higher shocks temperature, less effective operation and shorter life.
On the other hand, a lower pressure may lead to an Explorer-like scenario, when the tire overheats and its structure fails. As a matter of fact, that's why many cars are being equipped with low tire pressure warning systems.
The manufacturer assumes liability for the pressure it recommends, anything else is at your own risk.
I liked the historical features; the rest was too little too late. Brought a tear to me eye, thinking of Oldsmobile's demise. I had to laugh at the other accompanying brochure... GMs other offerings. Especially when comparing the current Chevy/Pontiac/Buick lines with the Oldsmobile lineup. IMO, the others pale in comparison. I think if I had an Alero, I'd be trying to find an LX5 engine for it. I've often wondered what happened to my engine. It was unaffected by the accident.
The last time you changed the look it was for the better. This "new look" is AWFUL. Please tell someone to fix it, the font is so small when logging in I can't even read it. Even on a 17", the text is too small.
I think you may be right on the quality of a "close out" model. While I know the Intrigue was built at a plant with other GM cars that aren't being discontinued and it wasn't like the workers were facing a layoff, but I can't help but think that some of the quality assurance on Oldsmobiles slipped since they knew the brand had no future. Mine has been a true lemon and at 26K exhibits problems a car with 126K might have. It was built 05/01 so it was after the annoucement Olds was folding. I was a bit concerned about this then, but the extended warranty made me a bit more comfortable. If only the dealership service departments and/or Olds service network was better I wouldn't be so disappointed. However, I just read Automobile's long term wrap up of their 02 MB C320 and I don't feel so bad. One owner who had previous owned a 1991 Oldsmobile said his Benz spent 20 something days in for service for A/C and remote entry/security system problems. Even their test car had several recurring electrical problems that took several dealership visits. While they liked how the car performed, they didn't really seem overly impressed with the total package. I paid a little over $24K for my car and am highly upset about all the problems and the dealers inability to correct. I can only imagine how red faced I'd be if I spent $41K for the MB and had a similar experience.
I think some of you missed my point about the Element. I'm sure Honda knows it won't be a huge seller, my point was I think they are missing the boat with attracting their target demogrpahic. Young males(the demo Honda is wanting more of) want something that looks good and goes at least decently fast. While they may not want the same 3 box style sedan with a traditional nameplate like their parents drive, it doesn't mean they want something weird. Someone will buy the Element(but not the unemployed 22 year olds) but I don't think it will be the demographic they are hoping for. Why not a modern day Prelude with a higher performance version of the Accord's 240 HP V6. Keep the price in the mid 20s and get a little wild(not weird) with the styling and Honda will have a winner. The girls will still go for the Civic and the guys the new Prelude(or whatever they want to call it). Toyota needs to look at this idea as well as the Scion ain't gonna cut it just like the Echo didn't.
Hmmm, kinda interesting how Honda just keeps coming back around in this thread. To me, Honda is kind of like a good dog, dependable and does not really excel at any one thing, but just real good at everything. Except trucks, they don't do trucks, maybe that is why they are losing some of the male buyers.
And yes the Accord is NO eye-catcher [but that can be subjective], but does a company risk going too racial and risk losing too many of their CORE customers, I think NOT. Case in point the Aztek, however the Element is a step off their normal path.
Camry; I've driven several rentals [LE], wow Toyota has taking some major steps backwards. Very disappointing, a lot of corner cutting going on.
Mazda; I'm going to have to check out the new 6.
Right now I'm very intrigued with Nissan's new Murano. Fits my next needs real nicely, sporty, plenty of passenger room and cargo room, plus the price is not over the top like some of the luxury cross-overs. But I'm not sure if I like the looks or not, but the interior is very nice, totally opposite of the Altima. Plans to test drive one soon. However I will wait a couple of years, just in case of glitches, and see what others come out with.
I'll begin with Olds, as that's what this board is (supposed) to be about. Found their display way in the back, kind of like out of sight , out of mind. Not much traffic, and most people coming by did more so to pay their repsect rather than check out the cars. They had boxes full of the DVD and a commemorative calendar. Nice photos of the classic Olds' -the 88, Cutlass, Toronado, 442, and there, in November, the Intiruge. Nice collectors item. One word descibes their display -sad.
Next was Chevy. Malibu was OK, nothing to get excited about. Where Chevy is making some real progress on the truck-side. Colorado, Equinox - nice. The Equinox was nice looking. It is EPA clssified as a "compact" and is roughly the same size as the Ford Escape and Honda CR-X. Nice looking, but, of course, smaller than the Trailblazer and more snug inside.
Buick was next - nothing much except the Ranier. Very nice - it's obviously quite similar to the current Bravada. No hint of the '04 Regal.
Pontiac had a couple of the '04 GP's. I've liked the photos, but it is even more impressive in person. Neat feature- front passenegr seat folds forward - flat, so if you are alone on the road you can put stuff right next to you in little cubby's- food, drink, phone, and don't have to worry about spilling food and drink on the seat. Driving position is great -reminds me of the current Aurora. Probably the only mid-size GM sedan I'd consider now.
Caddy had their all their new models. Didn't sit in any, but the Sixteen is sure sweet looking. Never will be built, probably.
Saab had several 9.3's Great driving position, too. Back seat is striclty for kids, though. It, too, is classifed as a "compaact" which I found interesting. But it is smaller than the Intrigue and you really notice it in the back. My 14 year old, who has no problem sitting behind me in the Intrigue, would not be able to in the 9.3. I'm 5'10" and after adjusting the drivers seat, and sat in the back seat behind it, and my legs were pressed up against the driver seat. Small kids only back there.
I breezed through Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. Stopped at Chrylser only long enough to look at the Pacifica. Very nice package and looks well put together with quality materials.
Nissan was next . Lots of new models there. The Murano is interesting, but too small for me. The new Maxima was there, too. Still can't get past the front end.
The biggest crowds were probably at Nissan, Honda and Chevy, in that order. Could hardly get near the Element. They had 4 of them there, with crowds all around them, young and old, attracting more people than any other single model I saw in the whole show. If the intent was to attract attention and bring people into the showrooms, then, Honda has hit another home run.
I'll begin with Olds, as that's what this board is (supposed) to be about. Found their display way in the back, kind of like out of sight , out of mind. Not much traffic, and most people coming by did more so to pay their repsect rather than check out the cars. They had boxes full of the DVD and a commemorative calendar. Nice photos of the classic Olds' -the 88, Cutlass, Toronado, 442, and there, in November, the Intiruge. Nice collectors item. One word descibes their display -sad.
Next was Chevy. Malibu was OK, nothing to get excited about. Where Chevy is making some real progress on the truck-side. Colorado, Equinox - nice. The Equinox was nice looking. It is EPA clssified as a "compact" and is roughly the same size as the Ford Escape and Honda CR-X. Nice looking, but, of course, smaller than the Trailblazer and more snug inside.
Buick was next - nothing much except the Ranier. Very nice - it's obviously quite similar to the current Bravada. No hint of the '04 Regal.
Pontiac had a couple of the '04 GP's. I've liked the photos, but it is even more impressive in person. Neat feature- front passenegr seat folds forward - flat, so if you are alone on the road you can put stuff right next to you in little cubby's- food, drink, phone, and don't have to worry about spilling food and drink on the seat. Driving position is great -reminds me of the current Aurora. Probably the only mid-size GM sedan I'd consider now.
Caddy had their all their new models. Didn't sit in any, but the Sixteen is sure sweet looking. Never will be built, probably.
Saab had several 9.3's Great driving position, too. Back seat is striclty for kids, though. It, too, is classifed as a "compaact" which I found interesting. But it is smaller than the Intrigue and you really notice it in the back. My 14 year old, who has no problem sitting behind me in the Intrigue, would not be able to in the 9.3. I'm 5'10" and after adjusting the drivers seat, and sat in the back seat behind it, and my legs were pressed up against the driver seat. Small kids only back there.
I breezed through Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. Stopped at Chrylser only long enough to look at the Pacifica. Very nice package and looks well put together with quality materials.
Nissan was next . Lots of new models there. The Murano is interesting, but too small for me. The new Maxima was there, too. Still can't get past the front end.
The biggest crowds were probably at Nissan, Honda and Chevy, in that order. Could hardly get near the Element. They had 4 of them there, with crowds all around them, young and old, attracting more people than any other single model I saw in the whole show. If the intent was to attract attention and bring people into the showrooms, then, Honda has hit another home run.
Quick question.. My Intrigue has fog lamps. However, it appears (and says in the manual) that they will only go on when the full headlights are on. Is this true? Any way around it? There are some situations where I would like to have the fog lamps on when it isn't dark enough to trigger the headlights (or I don't need to turn them manually on). Anyone know what the deal is?
As for those new cars, the one that has me interested (not from a buying standpoint, just as an enthusiast) is the Pacifica. That looks sweet--nice and tightly porpotioned, sleek, classy interior. I can't wait to see them on the road. About the Grand Prix--whats the plastic factor like? If I hate Pontiacs now, will I be impressed by the the new GP?
I'm pretty sure that most states outlaw the use of fog lamps except in highways and when the visibility conditions ask for it. Therefore, it makes sense that they're only on with low-beam, for if the headlights are off (there's still daylight) or in high-beam (not foggy) there's no need for the fog lights.
..."The 2004 GP really doesn't seem any different than the current one."
Huh? Time for an eye exam, ol boy.
Every square inch of sheet metal is completely different, no more plastic body side-cladding, new 90-degree opening rear doors, the interior and dash are completely restyled, new Eton supercharger available, new 4-wheel independent suspension design, new 4-wheel disc braking system, new 10-toothed steering shaft system, rear wheels have been set wider apart, new touch-activated shifting system, new rear axle ratios. Much more.
Even the base 3800 engine has had the air/fuel mixture system recalibrated for improved performance.
So, just what about the '04 GP is "really not any different" from the '03? Go to the Pontiac web site and compare them side-by-side. If you can't clearly see a big difference, schedule that eye exam!
If you turn the headlamp switch to the parking lamp position, you should also be able to turn the fod lamps on. I do this if it is a rainy day, but bright enough that the headlamps do not automatically come on. I don't make it a habit of driving at night with just the parking and fog lamps on as you can get cited for that. And the teenage crowd in their "crapped out" Hondas like to do that.
TSchramm, interesting bits about the show. I think the Malibu's big selling point is going to be it's excellent chassis and dynamics. Radical styling has never been a Chevy forte. But hey, if Honda and Toyo can sell millions of dull looking cars you can't blame Chevy for keeping the look conservative. Interesting that the Element had such a crowd, although that doesn't always mean a runaway success. The good ole Aztek got considerable press when it first made the auto show rounds.
regfootball, I don't see alot of the same styling with the new GP. It look considerably different and as for the interior materials, they looks alot better in pictures. I'll have to wait until I actually see one in person to judge. Maybe TSchramm can enlighten us on the interior quality of the new GP. As for the engines being the same, if it ain't broke why fix it? I know alot of us would have liked to see the Intrigue's 3.5 liter DOHC V6, but with the supercharged 3800 making 250+ hp now and 280 lbs-ft of torque, it's hard to argue against it. Especially when it is cheap for GM to build and has proven reliability. Once their new generation of V6 engines are in full production, I would imagine one of them will replace the 3800.
Mother nature blessed us with about 3-4 inches of wet snow yesterday and the temps have stayed below freezing so there is plenty of it left. While everyone was in a panic leaving work early yesterday(and thus creating major traffic jams) I stayed late and figured I'd avoid the crowds and drive home later. I was reminded again why I still love my troublesome Intrigue. The car performs flawlessly in the snow. Granted we didn't have huge drifts, but with several inches of snow on the roads I had no problem getting to my destination. The ABS and traction control are absolutely wonderful. Those are two features I will never do without on a car again. I engaged the PCS system a few times(once was not intentional) and came away with a smile on my face. I could live without PCS, but it sure is nice to have just in case. While PCS can't overcome the laws of slip & slide physics, once the rear wheels do get some traction, which ever one the PCS is acting on digs in and really helps correct the car's direction. For someone who isn't intentionally trying to make the car skid and oversteers by accident, it is a great safety net.
Can't figure out why my auto show message got posted twice - I only hit "post" once...
Anyway - bnrmom is quite right. Anyone who thinks the '03 and '04 GP aren't very different isn't paying attention.
Although I am a big advocate of reserving judgement on how "good" a car is until I drive it, I am much more impressed with the '04 GP than the '03. Granted, I only sat in it for maybe three minutes, but , beyond the "charcoal grey" motif that GM seems so enamored with, the '04 interior seem a marked improvment over the '03.
Yes, it still has some of the "Game Boy" fussiness of prior Pontiacs, but seems more subdued this year. The leather seats were far more comfortable than my Inrigue's, and the ergonomics of the dash and controls is very intuitive.
I agree with the comments on the 3800 V6- GM has continued to improve it to the point where Ward's rates it as one of the 10 best production engines in the world. New for the sake of new is foolish.
Could you please share with us how the interior materials of the new GP felt to the touch and how its texture looked like?
As for the 3800III, it's got updated emissions controls (something new related to the EGR valve and engine management computer) to meet upcoming emissions regulations.
Not to break things up on the '03 Grand Prix (I already love it and would buy one if I could, in either black or the new orange available!), but I have a quick question for those of you so involved.
I've been looking more closely lately at some used '98 Intrigues. I'd like to find a '98 with as many or as little options as possible for $4,500 or under (several can actually be found at that price). That leaves me looking at mostly '98s with anywhere from 80k to 150k miles. The lower the better, but who has the most experience with a high mileage (well over 100k) Intrigue? Mileage really doesn't concern me that much, with the bulletproof 3.8 under the hood and a very good reliability reputation, other than some very common steering & brake issues. Generally, I'd like to know what an Intrigue is like after 100k.
Near or well over 100k, what are some of the main things to look for mechanical-wise? I ask, because, for example, I've found a silvermist '98 GX w/98k for $3,500 obo and a black '98 GX/GL with spoiler in quite nice shape but "high mileage" for $2,500. Even if the latter has a lot of miles under it's belt, for $2,500 how can you not take a second look?
I'd want to know the service history on a high mileage vehicle. I'd have much more confidence in something that had been serviced "by the book" than something that never had anything other than regular oil changes. Unless you know they've been replaced, the 100K+ vehicle is probably doing to need shocks, belts, hoses, and all major fluids changed.
I also think you can infer a service history by the shape of the interior. If what you ride in is dirty and shabby, you probably haven't worried about the stuff you don't see (i.e., under the hood.)
Is an excellent engine but many of GM's "improvements' involve engineering cost out of the engine. There ar 5 of us on the Impala thread who have had the thermoplastic intake manifolds warp and leak coolant. An $800 repair if out of warranty.
My father picked up a pretty loaded 2002 3.5L Aurora with 11,000km on it for $32,000CDN this morning. I'm so jealous! I'll be going over to drive it next weekend.
When it comes out I will go test this beast for sure. From what I have read it will be a big step up in terms of peformance and refinement. 3800 is the only ohv engine I have any interest in.
For what torque the new 3.5L ohv in the Bu gives up to the 3800, it make make up in smoothness. I always found the GM 3.4L a bit smoother/quieter than the 3800.
The 3400 may be quieter and smoother at idle than the 3800, but at higher engine speeds, the 3800 is much more refined. Other than the LS1 V8, the 3800 is probably the best sounding OHV engine at 5000+ RPM. Despite it's age and "old tech" design, I can see why GM keeps this engine around. And why it is still popular with buyers.
Spent the weekend in Dallas and returned last night. I had been there a few years ago but it would seem to me that that state is completely SUV crazy. I'm not talking about Pathfinders and Explorers either, I'm talking full size Denalis, Tahoes, Suburbans , Expeditions, Navigators and Escalades EVERYwhere. Unbelievable. My buddy drives an Altima and we had trouble finding the car in parking lots a few times because it gets hidden behind all these full side SUVs.
Hardly saw any Intrigues on the road. Of course I hardly saw any Accords either.
dindak - You should have told us you were going to be here in Dallas, we could have hooked up and taken a drive in my Intrigue and Envoy XL. There are definitely a LOT of SUVs and pickups here, they probably make up the majority of vehicles on the road.
jg28 - The interior of that Mazda is very similar to my Intrigue's interior, with the two-tone doors and dashboard. The colors are almost identical. I wish my door handles were chrome though...
Dope! I didn't realize you lived in Dallas. We were out Friday and Saturday night. Went to Big Bucks on Saturday night to watch the hockey game. Man that place is big.
Dallas must be the SUV capital of the world. I was in Winnipeg a couple of years ago and it's the pick-up capital of the world.
Things warmed up to a balmy 50 degrees today and driving home this evening, the flicker returned. Seems it does not like mild weather as when it was in the teens a couple of nights ago and both seat heaters were on and heater fan on high, no flicker whatsoever. Conditions are pretty much the same as before the alternator was replaced. Mild temperatures, moderate load(headlights, radio, low fan), and low engine speed(about 2000 rpm).
Comments
b4z : I bought my Intrigue based on what I was reading back in early 2000. The problems with the initial Intrigues seem to have been ironed out by then so when our GP was totalled we decided to make the change to Oldsmobile in spite of the fact my friends considered it an old peoples brand. No regrets, I love the car and I expect another 150K kms + of driving it.
TS is right about the Element--it doesn't have to be a moneymaker for Honda. They are concerned that their demographics are getting too old and too female (think Civic...I have no respect for men who drive Civics, do you?)...Element is a way to bring people in the showroom...and then maybe sell them something else...
As for the discussion about the Accord/Camry, I'm sure that the Accord is a very solid, well-executed car. Styling is subjective, I'm not crazy for the new styling and as I've said before I HATE the bloated Camry. However, in terms of the Intrigue/Impala discussions in relation to these cars, I think that the key factor is price. What kind of Accord could I get for the $18.5k I just paid for my Intrigue? Would it have a good V6, auto climate control, traction control, PCS, spoiler, alloy wheels, a Bose 8 speaker sound system, and so on...? Not a chance. I'd get me a nice 4 cyl with a few options. BORING. The same is true even for the current Impala. Even an LS with the Appearance Package is cheaper than a comparably equipped Accord and its much more substantial car (although not anywhere near the Intrigue in terms of performance). Plus, of course, there are some of us out there that want to drive something that you don't see in every lane all day long. I couldn't get my girlfriend to even look at a Focus, because, as she said "I'm sick of seeing them." She bought an Alero....
Bnrmom is wrong on the Intrigue. There was never a problem with styling. Everything to this day thinks it looks sleek, aggressive, fast, expensive...When it came out, the impression was that it was NOT another GM sedan, THAT was the problem. Nobody knew what the hell it was and where to buy it! The last thing people thought when they looked at that '98 Intrigue was "Oldsmobile" and there was no badging there to tell them!
By the way, just as an aside...isn't it interesting that nobody has every mentioned the Ford Taurus on this board? (at least not in a long, long time...) How irrelevant is that car these days! Ford REALLY screwed up by trying to replace 3 cars with two (Escort, Contour, Taurus with Focus, Taurus). They should have slotted something in between them. Apparently, that's what they are doing with the upcoming '04/'05's.
The supply of new 2002 Intrigues is drying up. There are none to be found locally and a dealer in a nearby province who had 8 of them a couple of months ago now is down to one. They are a heckuva deal if you want one.
Seems to me the best value in a GM car these days is the Grand Prix. One with the 3800 (the GT) stickers for less than an Impala LS. I am not crazy about either one but I would go with the GP if pressed. The Saturn L300 wagon interested me as well but the price is way up there and I wouldn't want a cheaper 4-cylinder model. I like the Alero but it's a bit small for what I want and I don't care for the Grand Am either. Malibu screams rental car so it's out too.
I wish the new Colorado pickup was available. Maybe by the time I'm ready it will be. I don't like the S-10/Sonoma and a fullsize pickup would be nice but is really too big and expensive for me. The Envoy also appeals to me but is out of my price range. I've already ruled out the Rendezvous and Aztek on looks.
I haven't been a big SUV fan but the Mazda Tribute looks good to me as does the Toyota Highlander and Mitsu Outlander. Pricing on them is a bit iffy. I really like the look of the Nissan Murano but it is out of my price range. Don't know about pricing on the Mazda 6 but I like what I've seen of it. The Accord sedan and Camry are both out on looks but the Accord coupe might be a contender; again though, it's a bit on the pricey side. I thought the Jetta wagon might be the one but I was disappointed with pricing on it too; they can get very expensive. If Chrysler offers some incentives on the Dakota I might want to look at one of them; don't know much about them though.
It's a really tough call. I would like to go with GM to use up my GM card money but it isn't easy. Right now I couldn't predict what I would end up with. I only wish there was a new Intrigue to choose from.
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mfletouva : I agree with you on the Camry, one of the ugliest cars on the road now. Old Camry was really dull, the new is hideous.
Have a 2002 with PCS and the above 16" tires.
The kid who did the work said the tires should be inflated to 44 PSI. That sounded like a lot, but he seemed positive and said that's what was stamped on the tire.
Drove out and was appalled at the harsh ride. Pulled over and checked the factory sticker in the trunk and it said to use 31 PSI all around.
Went back and ran down the store manager and told him what happened. He agreed that the pressure should be well above 31 PSI, although the 44 PSI is stamped on the tire as the max pressure for the tires.
His comment was that 31 PSI is too low for the 16" Eagles and we agreed on using 38 PSI all around.
Anybody have any thoughts or observations about this exchange?
Having followed Fords carelessness with regard to inflating their Firestones, am not too surprised if a major mfr is giving out bad data. However, the difference between 31 and 40+ PSI is significant.
Seems that an undesireable edge wear pattern would emerge if the 31 PSI was as low as the tire folks suggested. Conversely, at 38+ will I see abnormal center wear?
What do you guys inflate your tires to?
As for the maximum pressure on the tire sidewall, it's just that: the maximum pressure that the tire can withstand before exploding. By inflating the tires to the maximum pressure, any pot hole could cause the tire to blow up!
Finally, it's important to remember that the tires should be inflated when cold (after up to 1ml. at speeds below 25MPH or so).
As for the Japanese not being able to do anything wrong, well, the Intrigue was designed specifically as GM's japanese sedan import fighter. But, who lost the fight? Still a nice car, though.
Pressure will change about 1 psi per 10 deg F temp variation which is why you should check it every month, especially if the temp changes significantly with the seasons as it does for most of us.
It's amazing the amount of misinformation gets passed out by people who ought to know better.
The manufacture's sticker usually includes a lower pressure for ride quality.
Gm did this with my IROC and Ford did it with the Explorer and look what happened there.
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The suspension is designed to work with a certain tire compliance. A higher pressure will transfer some of the work expected to be done by the tire to the suspension, which will lead to higher shocks temperature, less effective operation and shorter life.
On the other hand, a lower pressure may lead to an Explorer-like scenario, when the tire overheats and its structure fails. As a matter of fact, that's why many cars are being equipped with low tire pressure warning systems.
The manufacturer assumes liability for the pressure it recommends, anything else is at your own risk.
Did you buy an 02 close out?
Post your comments on the redesign here: Town Hall New Look!
That's where the developers will look for feedback.
And yes the Accord is NO eye-catcher [but that can be subjective], but does a company risk going too racial and risk losing too many of their CORE customers, I think NOT. Case in point the Aztek, however the Element is a step off their normal path.
Camry; I've driven several rentals [LE], wow Toyota has taking some major steps backwards. Very disappointing, a lot of corner cutting going on.
Mazda; I'm going to have to check out the new 6.
Right now I'm very intrigued with Nissan's new Murano. Fits my next needs real nicely, sporty, plenty of passenger room and cargo room, plus the price is not over the top like some of the luxury cross-overs. But I'm not sure if I like the looks or not, but the interior is very nice, totally opposite of the Altima. Plans to test drive one soon. However I will wait a couple of years, just in case of glitches, and see what others come out with.
pat : Hey I know it's not you. It's pretty bad though. On a 15 inch is not readable in some spots. I have posted my displeasure.
I'll begin with Olds, as that's what this board is (supposed) to be about. Found their display way in the back, kind of like out of sight , out of mind. Not much traffic, and most people coming by did more so to pay their repsect rather than check out the cars. They had boxes full of the DVD and a commemorative calendar. Nice photos of the classic Olds' -the 88, Cutlass, Toronado, 442, and there, in November, the Intiruge. Nice collectors item. One word descibes their display -sad.
Next was Chevy. Malibu was OK, nothing to get excited about. Where Chevy is making some real progress on the truck-side. Colorado, Equinox - nice. The Equinox was nice looking. It is EPA clssified as a "compact" and is roughly the same size as the Ford Escape and Honda CR-X. Nice looking, but, of course, smaller than the Trailblazer and more snug inside.
Buick was next - nothing much except the Ranier. Very nice - it's obviously quite similar to the current Bravada. No hint of the '04 Regal.
Pontiac had a couple of the '04 GP's. I've liked the photos, but it is even more impressive in person. Neat feature- front passenegr seat folds forward - flat, so if you are alone on the road you can put stuff right next to you in little cubby's- food, drink, phone, and don't have to worry about spilling food and drink on the seat. Driving position is great -reminds me of the current Aurora. Probably the only mid-size GM sedan I'd consider now.
Caddy had their all their new models. Didn't sit in any, but the Sixteen is sure sweet looking. Never will be built, probably.
Saab had several 9.3's Great driving position, too. Back seat is striclty for kids, though. It, too, is classifed as a "compaact" which I found interesting. But it is smaller than the Intrigue and you really notice it in the back. My 14 year old, who has no problem sitting behind me in the Intrigue, would not be able to in the 9.3. I'm 5'10" and after adjusting the drivers seat, and sat in the back seat behind it, and my legs were pressed up against the driver seat. Small kids only back there.
I breezed through Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. Stopped at Chrylser only long enough to look at the Pacifica. Very nice package and looks well put together with quality materials.
Nissan was next . Lots of new models there. The Murano is interesting, but too small for me. The new Maxima was there, too. Still can't get past the front end.
The biggest crowds were probably at Nissan, Honda and Chevy, in that order. Could hardly get near the Element. They had 4 of them there, with crowds all around them, young and old, attracting more people than any other single model I saw in the whole show. If the intent was to attract attention and bring people into the showrooms, then, Honda has hit another home run.
I'll begin with Olds, as that's what this board is (supposed) to be about. Found their display way in the back, kind of like out of sight , out of mind. Not much traffic, and most people coming by did more so to pay their repsect rather than check out the cars. They had boxes full of the DVD and a commemorative calendar. Nice photos of the classic Olds' -the 88, Cutlass, Toronado, 442, and there, in November, the Intiruge. Nice collectors item. One word descibes their display -sad.
Next was Chevy. Malibu was OK, nothing to get excited about. Where Chevy is making some real progress on the truck-side. Colorado, Equinox - nice. The Equinox was nice looking. It is EPA clssified as a "compact" and is roughly the same size as the Ford Escape and Honda CR-X. Nice looking, but, of course, smaller than the Trailblazer and more snug inside.
Buick was next - nothing much except the Ranier. Very nice - it's obviously quite similar to the current Bravada. No hint of the '04 Regal.
Pontiac had a couple of the '04 GP's. I've liked the photos, but it is even more impressive in person. Neat feature- front passenegr seat folds forward - flat, so if you are alone on the road you can put stuff right next to you in little cubby's- food, drink, phone, and don't have to worry about spilling food and drink on the seat. Driving position is great -reminds me of the current Aurora. Probably the only mid-size GM sedan I'd consider now.
Caddy had their all their new models. Didn't sit in any, but the Sixteen is sure sweet looking. Never will be built, probably.
Saab had several 9.3's Great driving position, too. Back seat is striclty for kids, though. It, too, is classifed as a "compaact" which I found interesting. But it is smaller than the Intrigue and you really notice it in the back. My 14 year old, who has no problem sitting behind me in the Intrigue, would not be able to in the 9.3. I'm 5'10" and after adjusting the drivers seat, and sat in the back seat behind it, and my legs were pressed up against the driver seat. Small kids only back there.
I breezed through Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. Stopped at Chrylser only long enough to look at the Pacifica. Very nice package and looks well put together with quality materials.
Nissan was next . Lots of new models there. The Murano is interesting, but too small for me. The new Maxima was there, too. Still can't get past the front end.
The biggest crowds were probably at Nissan, Honda and Chevy, in that order. Could hardly get near the Element. They had 4 of them there, with crowds all around them, young and old, attracting more people than any other single model I saw in the whole show. If the intent was to attract attention and bring people into the showrooms, then, Honda has hit another home run.
My Intrigue has fog lamps. However, it appears (and says in the manual) that they will only go on when the full headlights are on. Is this true? Any way around it? There are some situations where I would like to have the fog lamps on when it isn't dark enough to trigger the headlights (or I don't need to turn them manually on). Anyone know what the deal is?
As for those new cars, the one that has me interested (not from a buying standpoint, just as an enthusiast) is the Pacifica. That looks sweet--nice and tightly porpotioned, sleek, classy interior. I can't wait to see them on the road. About the Grand Prix--whats the plastic factor like? If I hate Pontiacs now, will I be impressed by the the new GP?
Styling-same
Powertrain and chassis-same.
Interior-still looks plasticky.
maybe if you drive it, but don't hold your breath.
Huh? Time for an eye exam, ol boy.
Every square inch of sheet metal is completely different, no more plastic body side-cladding, new 90-degree opening rear doors, the interior and dash are completely restyled, new Eton supercharger available, new 4-wheel independent suspension design, new 4-wheel disc braking system, new 10-toothed steering shaft system, rear wheels have been set wider apart, new touch-activated shifting system, new rear axle ratios. Much more.
Even the base 3800 engine has had the air/fuel mixture system recalibrated for improved performance.
So, just what about the '04 GP is "really not any different" from the '03? Go to the Pontiac web site and compare them side-by-side. If you can't clearly see a big difference, schedule that eye exam!
TSchramm, interesting bits about the show. I think the Malibu's big selling point is going to be it's excellent chassis and dynamics. Radical styling has never been a Chevy forte. But hey, if Honda and Toyo can sell millions of dull looking cars you can't blame Chevy for keeping the look conservative. Interesting that the Element had such a crowd, although that doesn't always mean a runaway success. The good ole Aztek got considerable press when it first made the auto show rounds.
regfootball, I don't see alot of the same styling with the new GP. It look considerably different and as for the interior materials, they looks alot better in pictures. I'll have to wait until I actually see one in person to judge. Maybe TSchramm can enlighten us on the interior quality of the new GP. As for the engines being the same, if it ain't broke why fix it? I know alot of us would have liked to see the Intrigue's 3.5 liter DOHC V6, but with the supercharged 3800 making 250+ hp now and 280 lbs-ft of torque, it's hard to argue against it. Especially when it is cheap for GM to build and has proven reliability. Once their new generation of V6 engines are in full production, I would imagine one of them will replace the 3800.
Anyway - bnrmom is quite right. Anyone who thinks the '03 and '04 GP aren't very different isn't paying attention.
Although I am a big advocate of reserving judgement on how "good" a car is until I drive it, I am much more impressed with the '04 GP than the '03. Granted, I only sat in it for maybe three minutes, but , beyond the "charcoal grey" motif that GM seems so enamored with, the '04 interior seem a marked improvment over the '03.
Yes, it still has some of the "Game Boy" fussiness of prior Pontiacs, but seems more subdued this year. The leather seats were far more comfortable than my Inrigue's, and the ergonomics of the dash and controls is very intuitive.
I agree with the comments on the 3800 V6- GM has continued to improve it to the point where Ward's rates it as one of the 10 best production engines in the world. New for the sake of new is foolish.
As for the 3800III, it's got updated emissions controls (something new related to the EGR valve and engine management computer) to meet upcoming emissions regulations.
I've been looking more closely lately at some used '98 Intrigues. I'd like to find a '98 with as many or as little options as possible for $4,500 or under (several can actually be found at that price). That leaves me looking at mostly '98s with anywhere from 80k to 150k miles. The lower the better, but who has the most experience with a high mileage (well over 100k) Intrigue? Mileage really doesn't concern me that much, with the bulletproof 3.8 under the hood and a very good reliability reputation, other than some very common steering & brake issues. Generally, I'd like to know what an Intrigue is like after 100k.
Near or well over 100k, what are some of the main things to look for mechanical-wise? I ask, because, for example, I've found a silvermist '98 GX w/98k for $3,500 obo and a black '98 GX/GL with spoiler in quite nice shape but "high mileage" for $2,500. Even if the latter has a lot of miles under it's belt, for $2,500 how can you not take a second look?
I also think you can infer a service history by the shape of the interior. If what you ride in is dirty and shabby, you probably haven't worried about the stuff you don't see (i.e., under the hood.)
Good luck.
There ar 5 of us on the Impala thread who have had the thermoplastic intake manifolds warp and leak coolant. An $800 repair if out of warranty.
http://209.242.38.34/images/full/2002/s2002010901/mz200364904.jpg
It sure does remind me of Intrigue. Look at the little black area just left of the steering wheel column. Amazing. (This is the Mazda6 btw).
Hardly saw any Intrigues on the road. Of course I hardly saw any Accords either.
;-)
jg28 - The interior of that Mazda is very similar to my Intrigue's interior, with the two-tone doors and dashboard. The colors are almost identical. I wish my door handles were chrome though...
Dallas must be the SUV capital of the world. I was in Winnipeg a couple of years ago and it's the pick-up capital of the world.