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Comments
Regarding the Previa, nice dependable van, but you have to focus on the present. If you're going to bash Honda, take a good look at Toyota, their designs DEFINE "bland". (The Toyota Matrix looks interesting though.) At least the Honda models make an attempt to look sporty. I'd rather be driving a "box" than an "eggplant". Mediocre brakes and handling? I bet the Ody can outhandle a Sienna, not sure about braking though, given the weight differences. As for noise, I think it's a matter of noise isolation, unless of course you move up to a Lexus.
Kia Sedona is a good value, if you don't need as much space. Not sure about reliability though, even though it has been out in Europe for 2 years so. (There ARE differences between those models and the ones here!) Safety is good according to NHTSA, guess that 2.5 ton body weight is good for something after all. But would be interested in seeing the IIHS tests, particularly the front offset (the REAL test of the van's structural integrity).
But if you do your homework and be a little patient getting an Ody under MSRP IS possible. The waiting list is a little shorter now.
Certainly when Toyota comes out with the '03 Siena they will have an improved model and take away some of the Odyssey market share -
-is anyone able to guess when supply of the Odyssey will create a more favorable buyer environment/experience?
As for all that non sense that the MSRP is too low - Since when are cars or any product's list for less than they are worth? These aren't Beanie Babies ya know.
They quoted $2,900 over MSRP! That was my "hassle free" quote; 2 weeks later, 3 emails and 1 phone call. I'm sure this strategy works to get a backlog of buyers lined up, shoot off annoucements that they have arrived and get desperate people to run down with their check books in hand.
When I balked, he said I could come down and negotiate.
Paleez
Raybear;
I know you're right about finding a dealer out there that will probably offer and honor a decent deal, but it's not easy getting these guys to call. Give me a name of one anywhere in California and I'm there. I was making February the month to get this done since my registration is due on the MBZ ML320, but I'll buy the registration sticker and wait for sticker price to come around on the Odyssey.
Jerry
I define worth as how much I want to spend on something, not what the company can sell them for. Again, if you priced out everything against other vans, you get a lot for the money.
FYI, I bought mine from Goudy Honda, Alhambra,
So Cal for about $500 over MSRP back in Feb. '01. They were straight forward with the price, no B.S. about any dealer add-on options. Got my van in about 2 weeks (compared to several months, back then.) So give them a call (preferably with the Fleet Manager, Mike Tognetti (sp?).
You might also want to check out Norm Reeves Honda Superstore and Metro Honda(so Cal) too. Good luck.
Value is a very personal thing. A Daewoo to some is a great value, while the Odyssey to others isn't a good deal because the pricing is generally unbending. On the other hand, to a young family that is hauling the most precious cargo there is, that is children...the Odyssey is very very hard to beat.
Jerry
Spreen Honda in Loma Linda was selling at MSRP in the fall. I assume they still are. (Ask for Veronica or Kathy Thompson.) Pacific Honda in San Diego is at $685 over (Jay Emami) and Cush Honda in San Diego is at $1000 over. A couple of weeks ago I saw 6 Odysseys on the lot of the dealer next to the Home Depot. Out of curiosity, when I got home, I called to find out their price. They wanted $2000 over MSRP. I guess that's why they had so many sitting on the lot!!
but it's fair to say a car that has more buyers than inventory will drive the cost up over MSRP.
I'm really not faulting the dealers for getting as much as they can - I'd do the same if I had the hot product. I do wish they would be more forth coming with pricing.
With that being said, I will try an area outside the Bay Area where it may be less competitve - that way I can design a nice road trip home with my new car. San Diego sounds pretty good or even Ukiah would be a fun road trip if I can somehow fly there.
Thanks to all for the suggestions of other dealers to shop.
salesperson that he makes very little commission
on the civic or accord. However, they sell like hotcakes. Dealers use the Odyssey as a perk/spiff for the sales force. The markup is to makeup for the "small" commission they make on
other models. Dealers push for low production to keep demand high. This makes sense to me, because if Honda wanted to boost supply to meet demand they certainly would have done it by now.
You can't tell me it takes 3yrs to ramp up production.
Funny you should comment on the commission at Honda dealerships, because I went to see the colors of the Odyssey in person at a San Jose Dealer where the salesman said it didn't make a difference in his commission check if he sells it a MSRP or above. He said the amount over MSRP just goes into the pockets of the dealer.
While shopping at the dealer I was reminded of how nice it is to shop on-line. This dealership would not allow anyone to walk on the lot unescorted. I would explain to one rep after another that I'm being helped by the internet salesmen; they insisted on taking me to him or tagging along while I looked at colors.
Granted, this purchase process takes a little time and effort.....is this a possibility? Any one done it? Can you comment in detail please?
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Mark was honest, straightforward and nice. I must have been in the right place at the right time, though...
Good luck!
Ody is a super van. Can't help but feel that Honda is manipulating the market, though. Just as dealers are able to set prices at what the market will bear, consumers should vote with their wallets. If you are comfortable paying MSRP or above, and have the money, then pay it. I suspect the same "shortage" of vehicles will occur when the Pilot appears for 2-3 years, and the Odyssey will start to be discounted as the other vehicles hit their redesign point. There are already a couple of vans with 5 star safety ratings and the slowing economy may force Honda to back off a bit on their "my way or the highway" approach.
One thing I do know for sure: Every dollar of profit in the dealers pocket is one less that I have to pay for my kids college, my retirement, or the Ody's insurance and gas. Some folks lose sight of that.
The above posting on the EU and Canadian vehicles in the US market had an interesting insight:
"Simply put, Canadians are not willing to pay as much as Americans for their
vehicles. If manufacturers raise prices on new cars in Canada, consumers will
buy used product instead. With enough choice in the marketplace, people will
buy the best quality at the best price. That's what competition is all about.
Our government should encourage that."
Had an interesting e-mail exchange this weekend with an Internet manager at a dealer who "also" had a bonus of 15 extra Odys (like a previous post). here in N. VA. He said most other retailers (excluding car dealers) in US made 10% profit and he only made $480 above invoice on "most" Hondas. (so that equals 3% holdback, plus $480, plus applicable advertising allowance or dealer cash back). I know several folks who would LOVE to make 10% profit...grocers, gasoline retailers, etc...so I question validity of the blanket statement.
Since the manager mentioned Ody's at Edmunds TMV, I did the math and asked if he thought 18.5% profit was fair? (BTW, MSRP = 10%). Even when buying a home, we only pay 7%max (usually 3.5 to buyer and seller's agent each). BTW, the Internet manager knew nothing about the Ody comments on Town Hall.
Enjoy the exchanges, guys. Thanks for the interesting debate, and information exchange on a great van.
Scott
Honda Odysseys will remain in high demand..You can always buy a caravan..to which they build about 300000 more units..Not a bad vehicle,but that is why Honda does not saturate the market. It keeps resale value highwhich has always been a Honda trademark...
Even though you might not like paying MSRP..in 2 or 3 years if you go to sell it..The Caravan that you "saved" $4K on by getting a discount is now worth $10k less than the same Odyssey..
Value is perception..IT IS NOT PRICE..
just like the old saying.."You get what you pay for"...
Are we discussing a Value Added Tax (VAT) or cars? I suppose your theory applies a bit to both homeowners and cars and I agree with you. Where ever you add costs along the way drives up the pass along costs. However, my point was that very few areas of sales offer or expect 10% returns on the end product, regardless of induced costs along the way. Some folks are willing to pay MSRP without doing the math, and dealers quite obviously encourage that.
RWestmoreland-Won't debate what you obviously feel strongly about. Just a comment that actually in procurement (which is one of my lines of responsibility at work) price IS a factor, but not the ONLY factor in value which is probably what you meant. (Maint costs over life of procurement, reliability, original price, technical specs, product warantee/guarantee plus customer satisfaction) = Value (Yes, there really is a formula for value procurement)
When applied to cars, some people put extra personal weighting on exclusivity or guarantee based on personal preference or emotion. Others on maintenance and reliability...thats what sold Caddies to grandmothers for many years until the company didn't realize the market was dying. BTW, wouldn't touch a Caravan, but that's another choice that some folks make.
As for not saturating the market, well, one man's market manipulation is another man's non-saturation. Just getting the Alabama plant on line, and switching the Canada plant to the Pilot vehicle will certainly not saturate either market. Do we get extra value if we pay above MSRP? I know you'll say no, but some folks actually think that because they pay more that that is value. One thing I do know for sure, is that car dealers sell more cars than you or I will ever purchase in a lifetime, and they have more ways of skinning a cat than the average person.
Sorry I didn't put down that I don't sell vehicles after purchase...I either drive them into the ground, or donate them to charity. That weighs heavily into my own "personal" value equation. It sounds like you trade every 2-3 years, and there is merit to your argument for you. Plus, by trading at 3 years, you don't have to pay for an extended warantee.
Someone who has the "I drive them into the ground" philosophy either hasn't owned cars that retain decent resale value, fall apart as they age, or both.
Understand why a friend's recently traded '97 Eagle Vison ES was worth $3,000 and a '97 Accord with an equal MSRP when new is currently worth $10,000, and you'll understand why choosing to buy an Odyssey was easy, even at MSRP.
And factoring the cost of an extended warranty into the cost of a vehicle one plans to hold onto longer than three years is illogical. One may choose to invest the $1,000 and self-insure the repairs that occur between 36 & 100K miles. In most cases, the Odyssey owner that chooses this option will come out way ahead (I hope to be one of them); it's a matter of personal comfort level. But whether selling at 3 years or 6 years, the warranty will increase the value and salability of the vehicle.
thatis 15,500 or about 16 vans per dealer on average for Jan. On an annual basis it would add up to 186,000. We will see production go down in late spring as pilot comes to life. Seems to me one can get a discount in march-april as supply will finally exceed demand. Snotty Honda dealers should be boycotted first. Support the ones that were fair and honest.
INKY
Agreed that the consumers set the price. However, my local market includes BC, Canada. Honda is pricefixing in my local market, and its wrong. I, for one, choose to vote with my wallet and simply not buy one...yet. Markets change, political winds change (see post above about EU), and when enough of us get fed up and either buy something else or wait, Honda will change.
You caught me. We line the family up and read policies RE replacement of equipment, and then line up to race around with no oil in the cars to see how long the engines last. You must work for the psychic (psycho?) hotline!
Totally concur with your assessment of situational replacement when needed. Wouldn't hesitate to buy a car if the old one wasn't reliable, or safe. My cars are maintained well above book standards, so I don't have to replace them as often. Family owns numerous cars so most don't get a lot of miles on them all at once. Last job traveled 3 out of 4 weeks a month overseas. This one I live 0.2m away from work so I walk sometimes or ride a bike. When cars get really tired, they are given to charity, or friends who have kids who need to have a starter. If you have issues with that, so be it. My '74 Porsche is worth the same I paid for it, so accept your apology in advance.
Not everybody needs to sell 4 year old cars like your friend, (an Eagle-well OK-Didn't know they were in the same class as a Honda. How about a comparable Toyota?)and not everybody needs to pay MSRP...in fact if you read my previous post, the Internet dealer said Honda average was less than 500 above invoice (BUT not on the Ody). As for the lottery question, depends on the amount won, and the condition of the car...$100k would probably be banked if the car had less than 100k on it (and mine usually do at 8 yrs)
If you have been reading the Ody problems board, it might be worth the 875$ (or even more if you wish to pay "MSRP") investment to cover the door and transmission problems. I had a door repaired on my old van twice (non-electric) to the tune of $600 with no parts. $50/hr and up mech fees adds up fast. I'm not an advocate of extended warantees, but I think dealers should stand behind $35000 cars more than 3/36000 so, I guess I'm a radical...but then you already called me names twice. Keep smilin' guys. An opinion is, after all, just that.
The only ponderosa I'll be in anytime soon might be a steak house. I'm no cowboy; HOSS is just an acronym for Honda Odyssey Starlight Silver. I was waiting for the wild west comment; I knew it was just a matter of time.
What was wrong with the non-electric sliding door that required $600 in labor and what garage needed 12 hours to fix it. What brand of van was it? And what kind of Porsche do you have? 911? 914? And do you mean dealers should stand behind vehicles beyond 3 yr./36K or manufacturers? The dealer is just a local businessman who needs to get paid for their time to cover overhead. They don't care if it's the factory of the vehicle owner who pays them. Did you appeal to the manufacturer for any concessions? How old was your "old" van? I agree with you about manufacturers standing behind some items beyong warranty. Especially things that are not wear items or could be abused or neglected by the consumer, such as the headlight seals and certain electronics. I wish Honda would up their powertrain warranty to 5/60, or increase the entire warranty from 3/36 to 4/50, but it's all a function of price. To do so, would increase the cost to the consumer.
Strizv, I can't say I've ever been quoted, so thanks. But doesn't price fixing usually involve collusion between competitors? What you are experiencing is simple economics based on local supply, demand and disposable income. The same factors that make a house you can buy in anytown, USA for $150,000 cost $1,150,000 in Palo Alto. When supply eventually outpaces demand in your area, Honda won't change; the dealers will. They will discount odysseys the same as Accords. BTW, Accords were selling for up to $2,000 over MSRP in the early 80's.
LX's are a little easier to get as are the regular EX's. EX-L's are tough and anything with NAV or RES is the toughest ticket right now, at least around here.
Scott
Jerry
Also seems like prices are going down in the Bay Area.
We were told we could get it by the end of the month. Wow there were a lot of people looking at the Odysseys today.
Some interesting production numbers... for the 3rd straight week, Alabama production increased (but not by much) but Canada production has decreased. Not good imho. Overall, there are about 14% new Odys today than there were this time last year. Unfortunately that number is dropping because of the Canada production decrease. 2 weeks ago there were 19% more new Ody's than that time a year ago.
I'm wondering if the drop in Canadian production is just some overtime elimination, or if they're already scaling down for the new SUV. Man that would suck if it's the latter.
With the tax refund and some number crunching, we should be able to afford an LX if we can get it slightly under MSRP. Haven't seen ANY posts for dealers in the Milwaukee, WI area. Anyone out there? Does this seem possible?
I seem to have read half the messages predicting a small "glut" in the market in Feb/March and another half saying it won't happen or that the production has already switched and there wasn't one. Any further/new input on this? We're not in a hurry, but just want the best deal...lol!
Thanks in advance!
I would asked for an out the door price, but I wouldn't have registered this car in another state.
Had I shown up for this car and saw a doc fee added on at the last minute I would of been pissed off in a big way.
Thanks to the poster for the dealers in Salinas and Napa selling at MSRP - no need to fly to Az. now.
I called the dealer in Salinas (Mike). He gave me some mumbo jumbo about the Odyssey going up in value and you got MSRP because the car was cloth and not as in demand......
He did get "authorization" to go $800 over MSRP for a car that would arrive end of March, which is encouraging. I'm willing to bet by the end of March all this asking over MSRP will be a thing of the past as supply catches up to demand. Of course I have nothing to loose and everything to gain, so it's not really a bet at all.
BTW, the best deal I can get from local dealer is 500 over MSRP.
I will tell you that for my EX w/cloth, we went from $500 over MSRP to MSRP with a cargo mat thrown in, with just one phone call. They had received the car about 2-3 days beforehand => so, maybe they didn't have a buyer for it.
The other place to try is Kastner Honda in Napa. Ask for Bill McKee. He'll give you MSRP with a fully refundable $500 deposit -- you just might have to wait until one comes in though. He's a nice, honest guy.
Hope this helps.
That's where I'm getting mine and they went straight MSRP on an EX-L with RES.
Scott